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In hindsight, the reason had to do with her passive aggressive behavior over our friction over her perceived imbalance in the household chores, including general tasks for taking care of the kids (e.g., making lunches). I found this peculiar as I've spent most of our M freeing her of obligations (e.g., hiring someone to clean the house regularly, doing all the cooking, doing the bulk of the dishes to just be able to cook, etc).

In other words, I thought there was a balance where I was doing 50% of the chores while going to school full time and simultaneously working part-time, while she had no job or other responsibilities. I definitely felt and still feel an utter lack of gratitude for my contributions, as if I'm reduced to a nuisance (e.g., sex, interaction) or a convenience (e.g., do her chores for her).


That's amazing! I have a difficult time understanding why you thought you were suppose to do half of the chores even though she was a SAHM. Did you see your dad doing that when you were growing up?

I wonder if she thought she could not please you with how she kept house, cooked, etc. You did everything, taking all responsibility from her. Instead of her appreciating it, she may have resented it and thought you had no confidence in her abilities.

Another thought is that some people have a hard time respecting the one who does everything for them. Kind of like a spoiled child whose parents never make him do anything. When the kid grows up, he is terrible! He thinks others should do his work for him b/c he was never made to do it. I have actually known women who had H's that were like you, and the women had no sexual attraction for them and did not respect them.

Congrats on going 30 days without drinking! Do you have a support group or going to AA?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Cadet: You said, "Divorce = Space" Could you elaborate on that? Briefly, my MLC husband walked away 12/10/11. I've spent the better part of the past 3 months doing all the wrong things, and he filed for divorce 3/5/12. Without knowing I was doing it, I started "the last resort" last Wednesday. I hoping against hope that at the very least he will stop these divorce proceedings before it reaches completion - I'm in California, so it takes a minimum of 6 months from when I was served (3/19/12).

I apologizing for hijacking on the thread........that commentabout divorce just made my heart skip a beat.

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Cadet: re: Divorce = SPACE

Could you elaborate on that? My MLC husband walked away 12/10/11. I have done everything wrong in that time - begging, apologizing, etc. He filed for divorce 3/5/12. Without realizing I was doing it, I decided to "Last Resort" the situation last Wednesday.

I am hoping against hope that by going dark I can give him enough space to cool down a bit. He is in full replay mode right now.

Thank you

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Originally Posted By: Accuray
First, "giving space" doesn't need to mean "aloof and distant", it can also mean "pleasant and independent" -- that's really what you're going for. Think of it like applying a "friend standard" -- what level of intimacy do you expect from your friends at work? You probably don't expect them to kiss or hug you. When you try to engage them and they're not interested, you don't care that much. It's like "hey, I'm going to get a cup of coffee, do you want to go?" If they say "no", you go anyway and don't give it a second thought. There is no reason for them to feel guilty for not joining you. That's the space you want to give -- there is no reason to feel guilty for not engaging with you. You have no expectations about things you're "owed" or what your friend "should do for you".

Does that distinction make sense?


Completely and I totally agree. I like this lens; I wasn't really thinking of it in that way.

Where I'm still unsure about this approach is really nuance.
For instance, should I even give her a hug if she looks like she would need one; should I initiate any sort of non-seductive and non-threatening physical contact at any time, like a kiss on the forehead goodnight or a simple touch on her head like I do the kids, etc.

In other words, I'm concerned that I could come off in her eyes looking even more neglectful.

Here's a good example. Last Saturday was her birthday. I've not been pursuing for at least 2 weeks. It would be unusual for me not to celebrate her birthday, or for that matter one of her friends. I gave her a surprise hot air balloon ride--and made it very clear that it wasn't a date, it would have other people 100% of the time, and no matter happens we need to find a way to just be comfortable with each other. She was pleasantly surprised and seemed to have a good time. I also made dinner (which I usually do anyway).

But, I'm unclear if this was really a good idea or not.

Quote:
You need W to "see" a future with you where you are a fun, strong, independent person who's going to add more to her life than you detract. There is *nothing* you can do to paint that picture with words, you can only demonstrate it with actions, and those actions need to be repeated again and again and again. It's like retraining. If you teach your dog to "speak" and give him a treat when he does, you may find that his barking becomes annoying. If you now just don't give him a treat you haven't retrained him, he views it as an exception to the rule. Only through never rewarding barking again and instead rewarding other behaviors do you change the dog's perception of your relationship.


GAL.
Be consistent.
Also, stop my barking...

Quote:
Although you felt your first post was long, it wasn't long enough. More details are better. Here are some things to think about and maybe post about:
1) What patterns have defined your marriage, both good and bad?


I'm only now starting to see these things, and I'm having a hard time thinking of *patterns* which are positive. The most positively reinforcing thing, which will sound odd, is a pattern of spontaneity of travel, seeing concerts, having fancy dinner, surprise gifts, etc.

Negatively, we have a pattern where I seek emotional support, she doesn't provide it, I get frustrated/angry, she gets passive aggressive, and nothing ever gets resolved.


Quote:

2) What initially brought you together?
3) What do you have in common?
4) What makes you individuals in your marriage?
5) What do you respect most about each other?
6) If you envision your future with W, what does it look like?


I'll come back on these later...these are thoughtful questions and I need to think about these more as to not give flip responses.

Quote:
Your expectations right now are your worst enemy. You will expect that whatever you "do" to improve the situation should make things better on some "reasonable" timeline. Unfortunately, your actions will have less impact than you expect for far longer than you would like. Expect that there are no guarantees. Expect that W owes you nothing and may choose not to engage. Expect that whatever effort you put into improving yourself will pay off in one way or another, either with W or without her.


This is a hard pill to swallow, obviously. I don't have timeframe expectations. I do have a sense that she's hiding something that helps explain the sudden jump to divorce (some hidden trauma, that the pregnancy wasn't mine, a PA or EA, I have no idea) and I'm trying very hard to let it go inside myself and let it come to the surface naturally.

I'm doing my damnedest to GAL, as I plan to have a L no matter what.


(formerly crushd)
Married 14 yrs
M41/W43/D7/S4
M: MLC, major depression/W: WAW
Bomb 2/26/12, 2 days before anniversary
Detachment, Grown Apart, "I love you like the father of my children", EA/PA?
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Originally Posted By: sandi2
That's amazing! I have a difficult time understanding why you thought you were suppose to do half of the chores even though she was a SAHM. Did you see your dad doing that when you were growing up?


She makes a distinction between 'housewife' and SAHM. The former involves the particulars of housekeeping: laundry, cooking, vacuuming, cleaning. In this context, she will tell you clearly she's a terrible housewife and loathes the concept. The latter SAHM is a different framework: childcare, the kids laundry, picking up after the kids, dropping off/picking up, doing their laundry, making them food. In that context, she's an awesome SAHM.

Regarding my dad when I was growing up, I do recognize the amount of time he spent doing "housework" in a broad context. He constantly was fixing things, updating cabinetry, painting, building a patio/porch, did all the landscaping and outdoor maintenance, took care of the autos. I'd say there was a fair balance between them from this perspective.

Quote:
I wonder if she thought she could not please you with how she kept house, cooked, etc. You did everything, taking all responsibility from her. Instead of her appreciating it, she may have resented it and thought you had no confidence in her abilities.


Maybe, but my sense is she didn't resent it. Instead, she came to expect it. I gave her a life of leisure where she could pursue her art, including paying huge $'s for her acting schooling. I bought the house, the cars, the insurance, everything--but I don't feel any sense of gratitude for these things from her.

Part of it is also my sense that sacrifice is a behavioral aspect of love. This doesn't mean sacrificing myself, but providing for her desires even when they might conflict with my desires. For example, working at a crappy but good paying job.

Maybe I'm just a sucker. Maybe she's done with me because she's gotten everything she ever wanted from me, including kids and now a career (for the first time). If that's the case, I think she might be in for a rude awakening when she has to do 100% (that is 100% half of the time if we were to have joint custody) of the housework, work full-time--or more, all the finances, take care of the kids alone, and have no spousal emotional support. I'm kinda suspecting that a part of the WAW is a fantasy of freedom, but the reality for us both is that it will be met with an onslaught of obligation on top of emotional struggle.

Quote:
Another thought is that some people have a hard time respecting the one who does everything for them. Kind of like a spoiled child whose parents never make him do anything. When the kid grows up, he is terrible! He thinks others should do his work for him b/c he was never made to do it. I have actually known women who had H's that were like you, and the women had no sexual attraction for them and did not respect them.


Yeah, I could see that. I'm not confident this is the case with us--maybe, I just don't know. It's hard to write about these things and they can come across much too generalized. For instance, she's definitely worked very hard to be a really good SAHM. Her lack of specific sexual attraction I believe is more related to her being a survivor of sexual abuse as a teen.

Quote:
Congrats on going 30 days without drinking! Do you have a support group or going to AA?


Thanks! It feels good. I don't feel the need for an AA support group at this point. In other words, I'm not confident I have a chronic drinking "problem", but I damn sure was drinking too much those few months just to cope. Hell, I had to have a drink just to approach her intimately and not be anxious of being rejected again.

Heh, all that probably reads "denial"...

More than anything, I definitely need to not have more depressants in my life right now. It's part of my GAL for the time being. I've been looking for SmartRecovery groups in my area though, as well as group D support.


(formerly crushd)
Married 14 yrs
M41/W43/D7/S4
M: MLC, major depression/W: WAW
Bomb 2/26/12, 2 days before anniversary
Detachment, Grown Apart, "I love you like the father of my children", EA/PA?
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We have our second post-bomb couples counseling session coming up in a few days.

I could really use any advice at all about how to handle myself. I'm reflecting on how to apply this approach while actually in a therapy session with the W.

Does anyone have any advice on topics/issues into which NOT to delve during the session at this point?

Is it helpful for me to hold back expressing certain emotions or certain levels of emotions?

Are there any topics I should just plain avoid completely?

Anything I should really focus on?


(formerly crushd)
Married 14 yrs
M41/W43/D7/S4
M: MLC, major depression/W: WAW
Bomb 2/26/12, 2 days before anniversary
Detachment, Grown Apart, "I love you like the father of my children", EA/PA?
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 41
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One of the many things confusing me is W's self-described thinking process to arrive at the decision for the D, and W's extreme attitude not wanting to let others know about the bomb.

W explains that after the previously described 'moment of clarity' and 2.5 months of hesitating to share the decision for D with me, she has not discussed the matter with anyone but two old mutual friends. Both these female friends have gone through Ds and in both cases W hasn't spoken to the friends in maybe 7 years. And, in both cases the friends were divorced due to physical and emotional abuse.

Also, in both cases W describes the conversations as one-time and as definitely not having shared plans for the bomb (just "indirect conversations about problems in our M"). W describes the process of making the decision as "completely internal". In fact, W also describes this as the reason she acquieced go to couples counseling--when I was pursuing, I described it as an unfair unilateral decision.

Additionally, she has gone out of her way several times to clarify the people who know about the bomb. She was initially angry, but then understanding, that I shared the information with my mom with whom I sought to provide me emotional support; she knows the W well and has gone through a D.

Also, when I went to hang out recently with a male friend who is M'd to one of her close friends, she directly asked that I not talk about or mention the bomb to my friend. I didn't have any plans to do so, but I was rather taken aback by the W's request. W actually woke me very early before either one of us would normally be awake to point out she's not shared this and suggest that I not either.

From one point of view, this isn't a matter I'd normally discuss with very many other people, but we all do need emotional support. That said, I'm trying to understand why W is treating this as a big secret.

Here are some theories, but they may be way off base:
1. W doesn't want to look like "the bad guy" to her friends.
2. W has dealt with this as an internal matter. Letting anyone else know would necessitate her having to explain herself to them, yet she has barely explained herself to me.
3. W would be challenged by some close friends who would find D in this circumstance generally immoral.
4. W doesn't want me to have support to apply pressure on me to agree to move forward with the D.
5. W would be challenged to clarify her beliefs and wants to avoid this.
6. W is actually using the LRT on me.

I'm not suggesting letting the 'cat out of the bag', although if #3 or #5 above happens to be true, I might be convinced to make a 'slip of the tongue' to the right person. I observe a big difference between letting people know and having in-depth conversations with friends who'd likely be looking out for my solo interests, not the M. But to be clear, I'm not planning this.

Can anyone share any perspective on this?


(formerly crushd)
Married 14 yrs
M41/W43/D7/S4
M: MLC, major depression/W: WAW
Bomb 2/26/12, 2 days before anniversary
Detachment, Grown Apart, "I love you like the father of my children", EA/PA?
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Quote:
I could really use any advice at all about how to handle myself. I'm reflecting on how to apply this approach while actually in a therapy session with the W.

Does anyone have any advice on topics/issues into which NOT to delve during the session at this point?

Is it helpful for me to hold back expressing certain emotions or certain levels of emotions?

Are there any topics I should just plain avoid completely?

Anything I should really focus on?


What's the point in having a couple's therapy session?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted By: sandi2
[quote]What's the point in having a couple's therapy session?


I guess I don't know what you mean exactly. Do you mean that our M is hopeless, that's it's not worthwhile at this point, or are you asking what are my goals?

It's my goal to reconcile and save our M. Second, it's to help me better understand how we arrived at this point and my own role in helping produce it.


(formerly crushd)
Married 14 yrs
M41/W43/D7/S4
M: MLC, major depression/W: WAW
Bomb 2/26/12, 2 days before anniversary
Detachment, Grown Apart, "I love you like the father of my children", EA/PA?
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,602
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"One of the many things confusing me is W's self-described thinking process to arrive at the decision for the D, and W's extreme attitude not wanting to let others know about the bomb."

It's because she wants to remain "in control". She'll blame you for "making" her feel the way she does, but bottomline is that she wants to control the situation so she won't get hurt.

Sandi was asking about the C because, to be honest, at this stage of the game it won't work. We've all learned it the hard way and it's written in DB. I forgot to see if you've read it.

In your W's "moment of clarity", did she say why she wanted a D? I mean real reasons. Is it that she lost respect for you or whatever?

Don't lose hope. First thing you need to do is to stop assuming all the blame of this happening. It doesn't do anyone any good. You can turn the ship around but you have to be strong to do it. I would strongly suggest you go to C just for yourself and DEFINITELY change your username.

If you call yourself "crushd" that is how you will remain. Change it to something more positive and strong. Then believe it and live it.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
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