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#2230450 - 03/14/12 02:41 PM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: bustorama]
rickb89 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 1119
Originally Posted By: bustorama
I hear ya, Rick about feeling beat right now. It sure can be draining and feeling even defeated sometimes, especially when you are at the turning point you are.

As part of moving on, really try to focus on what 25, true gritter, myself and others have said. It's not just about getting busy with yourself and embracing your own life, but really ACCEPTING your W's point of view.

In the below exchange with your W, you are still very antagonistic to her point of view.

Originally Posted By: rickb89
Last night I clearly expressed my beliefs in.....love as a choice, that M's ebb and flow, that love is built...not dropped out of the sky.....

Her opinion was quite the opposite...that if a R goes bad it's like an abscessed tooth that you rip out to save the rest of you, that you don't beat a dead horse, that she's been unhappy for a long time.

I explained that I've been unhappy too for a long time. To me that meant we needed to find new tools to enhance our M, and that I'm not intimidated by the fact that there has been unhappiness. In the grand timeline of things, these moments were bound to happen along the line.

I said if we take just the first baby step in the direction of our M we can possible save all of this and that real M's are built softly, step by step, with a quiet gentle tenderness, and that the euphoria in all R's passes and should be replaced by these steps.


In telling her that you do not agree with her model of M/R/love (boldfaced above), you are still telling her that her feelings are wrong and invalid. That you do not accept her views on R/M/love or, more importantly, her feelings. You are NOT on her side.

Instead, you turned it around and made it about yourself and your feelings. Yes, you and your feelings ARE extremely important. But, the WAS does not want to hear about them, certainly not now, when they are fogged out and see you as not on their side. Don't fight her on her feelings. They are her feelings and very important to her, the same that yours are very (painfully!) important to you.

How might it have gone differently?

W, you've been unhappy a long time, huh? You don't feel the way you want to feel about us? You even feel like our R is a dead horse, so bad it needs to be ripped out like an abcessed tooth? Wow, I didn't realize it had gotten so bad for you. I can see why you want all that to stop if that's how bad you feel. That you want your unhappiness to end once and for all and you feel that ending our R will do that for you, huh?

And you don't say anything else. That is accepting and validating her feelings. You are not agreeing that you would do the same thing or that you would make the same choice or that you think her choice will lead to her happiness.

You've hung on longer than may have been healthy for you or for her. There are hints of anger and resentment coming through in your messages now (boldfaced below). A consequence of "giving" hoping to influence her in return, but without reward. Of being rejected over and over again. She did not hold a gun to your head compelling you to do this for her. Please don't do it to yourself anymore. It's time for distance and YOUR healing, Rick.

Yes, let her find her own way. You can do this.

Originally Posted By: rickb89
I said that she has quite some time to take even one step but instead has spent all her time on herself only and for herself only, which coupled with the lifestyle change has done a lot of damage..however I have stood by her her entire journey through this...and been rebuffed 100%.

I was willing to go forever for her. She chose such an immoral path (by my definition) that she became the abscessed tooth (to use her analogy).

She asked me last night again to show her how to take care of finances. You know, I've been at this with her for 20+ years...just to try and learn it...Part of me wants to say kiss my a$$...good luck trying to swim.


Okay Busto...I'm rested enough to give this its fair consideration. I have to admit every point you make her is correct. She is where she is for her own reasons and she has a right to be where she is. I am most definitely making personal judgements on her based on where I am. And much of my anger is selfish in that its me freaked about my own world collapsing.

Thanks...will think this through today

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#2230456 - 03/14/12 02:44 PM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: Jenna333]
rickb89 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 1119
Originally Posted By: Jenna333
I'm so sorry, Rick. I'm proud of you for standing up for yourself and your M. You can't make her see that she is walking away from something amazing. She will likely realize it in time when she's truly without you.

Hang in there. We're here for you.

(I wish there was more that I could do for you! Words just don't quite cut it frown )


Thanks a bunch Jenna. One of the reasons I've been talking to you nons-stop is because I see you and J as where M and I were when we were just starting out. You have a real chance to get this now, and not be in my shoes in 20 years.

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#2230457 - 03/14/12 02:46 PM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: mimivac]
rickb89 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 1119
Originally Posted By: mimivac
Bustorama, interesting. I can see that it would be healing to totally accept, if not agree with, your WAS's feelings, rather than to fight them. I think it could be a way to really heal and let go of the anger at your S for not doing what you thought he/she should have done to save your M. In my case, my h keeps emphasizing that his feelings are "real" and "not a joke." Things have gone a lot better for us once I started validating how he feels. He feels what he feels -- it is neither right nor wrong. It is also easier for me to go through this if I see us as two equals with differing approaches, rather than adversaries or as victim/perpetrator. I do think this kind of acceptance is difficult and comes with time and, to a certain extent, detachment. I am still working on it.

Thanks for the interesting thoughts.

Mimi


That's a good and healthy way to look at it!

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#2230461 - 03/14/12 02:59 PM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: rickb89]
ptcr Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/12
Posts: 88
Give me some examples of how you validate his feelings...I am at a loss. My H will not even talk about feelings....
_________________________
Me: 44 H: 45
Married 22
S 18, S 16
Bomb 8/11, Second Bomb 1/12

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#2230463 - 03/14/12 03:03 PM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: bustorama]
Harrier Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 781
Loc: Connecticut
Rick...I hope you don't take this as criticism of your effort.

But what I read from your story that you basically gave your wife a choice of working on the M or herself. I think it was an impossible choice to begin with.

From your first posts here, your W has said to you all along that she needs to figure her major, major issues out. She is broken and you can't possible expect to repair the M with one party who is so broken. Why would you want to even try?

Maybe she will never be fixed, but again that is not your issue for now.

I mean to some extent you kept the pressure up to work on the M, whether unconsciously or not. It was only a month ago that you were still confused about the idea of "detachment" (or so you said.)

You also said that you 9 months isn't that long of a time to deal with a crisis such as hers. But then 12 months is?

I think another part of this equation is your mutual interest from an OW.

Look, only you truly know your situation and everyone has a breaking point. But I would urge you to really think about things.

They say it takes a months for every year of marriages...that's 2 years for you. No one is saying you have to be a doormat for 2 years or put your life on hold for 2 years, but I don't think you give up either.

Lastly, I'm not quite clear on what you are actually doing here. Are you divorcing? Separating? asking her to move out? or keeping the in-house separation and just emotionally stepping back? have you communicated this to her more clearly than here.

"I am done with her" can mean so many things. I think you have to figure out what this means to you - really. (you've said similar things the past 2 months, then you come back)

sorry if this seems a little blunt and I know the frustration too well.
_________________________
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet.
--Jean Jacques Rousseau.

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#2230471 - 03/14/12 03:28 PM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: rickb89]
rickb89 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 1119
Had a lifetime's worth of input from everyone yesterday. So many people with loving, supportive and caring thoughts and advice.

I have been fortunate enough to have you all as friends. There have been some veterans (Mach, Busto, 25, True Grit, WHG) who have already been down the path that I'm on and I was fortunte enough to get their input. Gentle when needed, supportive when needed, and 2" * 4"'s when needed.

I keep posting this stuff about me because I know there are a number of you behind me on the same road, and I hope you guys can learn from the trials I have already lived.

The latest layer of the onion I'm peeling is about anger. You will get hurt in a WAS sitch more than most pain that anyone can know. You will see things happen that will bring out more anger in you than you ever thought possible. You will see your precious little kids suffer and want to tear the world in half out of anger.

I finding out it is very necessary to find the sources of this anger (NHMom you there?) and recognize them for what they are. It's the hardest thing to do because if you're like me you get all caught up in how "right" you are, how you know what divine principles are and your S is not living them, how they are hurting the kids and should be judged and executed for this.

Be very careful about knowing the source of your anger. I'm not preaching here because I'm doing this today - asking myself this. It is NOT EASY.

How much of your hurt is truly all about your own feelings, your own gratification? I'm not saying this doesn't sukk totally. I'm saying that if you look at it, it's often because we are not getting what we want or expect.

I have judged my W as a failure to herself, to me and kids because her actions were not in accord with where I am now. Then when I can step out of my own needs for a minute I can see her for just her. And i see a horribly tortured woman, who knows enough to know she's in the midst of some tangled life in the balance sitch, but in enough of a psyche crisis to not know what and when some demon is controlling her. And she's doing this live surrounded by the people she knows she's hurting, all the while surfacing above water every now and then to get air but then drops back under.

When I take myself and my feelins out of the equation and look at it from above. In fact, I saw a photo of the earth from the furthest satellite we have in outer space and saw this teeny little haze spec of dust, and I thought all of us are from that little spec, our entire history of life, every feeling everyone has ever had, every joy and pain, it helped me look at my W.

Why can't I just take the pain and accept she's where she is for her own reasons? It's often because it's about what I want in my life and disappointed about what isn't there. Understandable but selfish in and of itself.

I wouldn't want to be in her shoes in a million years. Knowing that, how bad of a villian can she really be? She's just some little girl who is getting her a$$ kicked by her history.

I can let her go, and can still support her. I need to be aware of when it's my needs getting in the way. And no one is saying I can't move on and satisfy them. I'm not a prisoner.

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#2230483 - 03/14/12 03:49 PM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: rickb89]
mimivac Offline
Member

Registered: 01/30/12
Posts: 158
Loc: Washington DC
Originally Posted By: rickb89
Why can't I just take the pain and accept she's where she is for her own reasons? It's often because it's about what I want in my life and disappointed about what isn't there. Understandable but selfish in and of itself.

I wouldn't want to be in her shoes in a million years. Knowing that, how bad of a villian can she really be? She's just some little girl who is getting her a$$ kicked by her history.

I can let her go, and can still support her. I need to be aware of when it's my needs getting in the way. And no one is saying I can't move on and satisfy them. I'm not a prisoner.


Nice post, Rick. Your sitch and the replies have definitely helped me on my journey. I think that what you write is the exact reason that we are told to have no expectations and to GAL in DB. It is hard to accept where your WAS is emotionally if you have expectations that they must fulfill your needs in the M. They can't. That's why they became a WAS. So, as conterintuitive as it seems, you have to stop expecting that he/she will behave as you would, or that he/she will take your M or your feelings into consideration at this point. That won't happen.

But, of course, we still have our needs. So, we must GAL. We must try to fill the void with life-affirming activities/people/experiences so that our needs do not get in the way of WAS's healing and, more importantly, so that we see life outside of our sitch and know that it is out there for us no matter what happens. I really do believe this is healthiest for all involved. Now putting this all into practice, that's what takes time and wisdom and growth.

Mimi
_________________________
M:37; H:37; M:10 years;T:13 years;no kids.
Bomb ("I love you, but don't feel things for you I should":1/08/12
Separated (H living with various friends:1/18/12
Separated (H rented his own apartment:3/4/12

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#2230485 - 03/14/12 03:51 PM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: rickb89]
purgatory Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/11
Posts: 825
Loc: Virginia
Originally Posted By: rickb89

I can let her go, and can still support her. I need to be aware of when it's my needs getting in the way. And no one is saying I can't move on and satisfy them. I'm not a prisoner.


Wow. Bet you never thought a year ago you could get to this level of clarity.

I respect you do much for what you've gone through and how you've carried yourself with your head high. It is so admirable that you are making the hard choices for the sake of your kids- REAL Love!! They might never acknowledge it right now- since they are going through their own suffering process, but they will look back wen the dust has settled and see that their dad was next to them every step of the way. You should be very proud of yourself.

Like I told Mnky.... I'll bring tequila or tissues- whatever you need!
_________________________
M-31, H-31
T-9, M-7
S-6, s-20mth
sep 8/1/11
ILYNILWY 11/29/11
Creating separation papers.
Discover H has feelings for BFF, she does too 1/11/12
H moves out 1.20.12

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#2230513 - 03/14/12 05:01 PM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: purgatory]
Cadet Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 5316
Originally Posted By: rickb89
Bugsy...just found your new thread. Someone posted above about how long this process takes. That stuck with me today as so true. I keep hearing that it takes 1 month for every year married. I'm starting to believe that.
If the math is correct I have another year on the crazy train!
^^^^^^ That is an EXPECTATION, ever hear of the STOCKDALE paradox?
Has to do with POW's in Vietnam that said we will be out in 1 year or next Christmas.
They were the ones that died after that time passed and their expectations were not fullfilled.
_________________________
Me-60, D28,S27

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#2230618 - 03/14/12 09:21 PM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: Cadet]
rickb89 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 1119
Originally Posted By: Cadet
Originally Posted By: rickb89
Bugsy...just found your new thread. Someone posted above about how long this process takes. That stuck with me today as so true. I keep hearing that it takes 1 month for every year married. I'm starting to believe that.
If the math is correct I have another year on the crazy train!
^^^^^^ That is an EXPECTATION, ever hear of the STOCKDALE paradox?
Has to do with POW's in Vietnam that said we will be out in 1 year or next Christmas.
They were the ones that died after that time passed and their expectations were not fullfilled.


Yup...already set myself up that way for when the first year mark came

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