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Accuray Offline OP
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Thanks CV, I needed that! Mncwing, it's important to understand that I no longer have a WAW, so my rules are slightly different from yours. My W is making an effort. The issue is that I'm hurt by what's happened and now want a more intimate marriage than my W does,

Tonight I called to talk to the kids after dinner. I was in a car with a friend of mine. W got on the phone after I talked to the kids and seemed perturbed. She asked me how my friend was doing since she knows his marriage is in trouble too. I couldn't talk about that because he was sitting right there. She made a snippy comment about the fact that I couldn't talk and that was that.

Accuray


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,478
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Originally Posted By: Accuray
She made a snippy comment about the fact that I couldn't talk and that was that.

Accuray


Yes, well, that kind of approach seems to work very well for her. Of course it's her go to move.


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Accuray Offline OP
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Thanks Oldtimer,

It will be interesting when I return home. One painful part of this is that I worked so hard to get the marriage back on track and now I feel like I'm undoing that work that was so hard won.

Her explanation for her infidelity was that I was withdrawn and she didn't feel connected. I took that to heart and made sure to be connected. When she didn't step up to meet me, I was disappointed.

I do realize that although she *said* those were the reasons for her infidelity, it's equally if not more likely that she just got an opportunity she chose to pursue and everything else is just noise.

Reading "The Solo Partner" underscored for me that our prior marriage was in fact quite good, we didn't have the animosity and chronic problems that seem to plague many relationships. If the marriages I read about in the solo partner are an "8" in terms of bad, we were probably a 4 at our worst.

I hate to tear down what I've rebuilt, but I do see that it wasn't a foundation that was going to last.

Accuray


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,478
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I'd very seriously doubt that any marriage prior to an affair was quite good. I'd take very seriously W's complaint that she didn't feel connected.

However, one doesn't feel connected by having a partner "patch things up" simply to make things easier and demonstrate no backbone. One doesn't feel connected through needy calls that are really all about the other person.

I suggest:

(1) Warmly embracing W, tell her how genuinely you are pleased to see her, that you missed her. Brush her hair. Show her that you *see* her as a person. Bring her a gift from the airport that demonstrates you *see* her and know her.

(2) Very directy tell her (BUT NOT THIS INSTANT): "The other night when I suggested making love, your response really didn't work for me. It really hurt because I felt rejected as a person and as someone who loves you. I believe we both deserve more care, love, and tenderness with respect to lovemaking."


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Accuray Offline OP
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Thanks Oldtimer! Tell me more about my lack of backbone.

(1) This made me laugh because W hates it when I touch her hair, but point taken. Also I have given her plenty of small gifts that tend to make her feel worse because she doesn't do that type of thing for me. The gifts didn't seem to be doing anything but to demonstrate pursuing, so I've knocked it off. I would like to bring her a gift, I enjoy doing it, but it seems counter productive.

(2) With this one, I really like how you've worded it. We've already had that discussion. She said "how would you like me to respond?" I told her, "You can say yes, you can say no, or you can offer a counter-proposal. If you say no, I will tend to feel rejected and that feels badly. If at that point you kiss me, hug me, or otherwise demonstrate a loving gesture it will help." -- she heard that, but she doesn't do it.

Oldtimer, did you read "The Solo Partner" and what did you think of it? Do you think my current strategy of applying distance is misguided? What would you advise?

Accuray


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Joined: Nov 2009
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Originally Posted By: Accuray
Do you think my current strategy of applying distance is misguided? What would you advise?
Just be STILL, do not apply diststance or pursuit, I understand that is hard.
Have you ever fed a squirrel?
You hold out you hand with food and hope he eats it.
No sudden movements towards or away.
It takes a long time for them to pursue you.
That is ultimately what you want.


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Accuray:

What strikes me is that you keep running into this in one way or another. It is not only the "health" of your relationship with your wife that is defined by your sex life...it is your definition of who you are that is tied very strongly toyour sex life.

This is a "problem" that is going to keep recurring. What I see is this: if your sex life isn't going somewhat in a direction that you think that it "should" even after all you've been through that somehow you are, and I'm choosing a strong word intentionally, a "failure."

At age 48, I was 4 years into my current drought and although the initial upset had diminished somewhat, I look at what I wrote in my journals at that time and I was clearly very upset at the lack of sex and what it "meant."

So, what does it mean about you? What meaning do you apply to yourself, not your marriage, not your wife, not your kids, or anything else?

That meaning, whatever it is that you apply to yourself on the subject of your sex life is precisely the difficulty you keep running into. You keep running into this definition of your self that is so tied to your sex life and that keeps you "miserable" (in that you feel the need to patch stuff up, you don't sleep well, etc).

It is difficult to undo this definition of yourself because you've set your life up to support that way of looking at yourself. And as long as you continue to define yourself this way, you will keep bumping into this problem.

How you undo that and redefine yourself is the challenge.

The Captain


Last sex: 04/06/1997
Last attempt: 11/11/1997
W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997
W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998
I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds.
Start running again (marathons)
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Re the backbone --

A poor word choice -- it might sound like I mean you should get entrenched in a position and be inflexible or unwilling to reach out. I don't.

Suppose there is a child who acts out, the parent reacts badly, the child sulks until the parent patches thing up by giving the child a piece of candy. The child gets very good at sulking. The parent tries to hold out, but pays in the end by putting up with the sulking for a very long time and ending it with only double the candy. In this case, "giving in" or "having no backbone" does not improve the relationship, indeed, it reinforces unhealthy patterns.

Better would be to (1) stop reacting badly -- the parent needs to quit playing the same role in the pattern, and (2) do something different than battling wills and giving candy in reaction to sulking, like, for instance, detaching from the sulking, go about business as usual, be normal and positive, etc...

To me, it seems you and W have a similar dynamic going, you ask for sex, W responds in an unloving manner, you react badly, she sulks, you give her the mea culpa candy of being the bad guy, rinse, repeat.

The first thing to do is to stop reacting badly to quit playing your role in the pattern. Make a list of different things to do: take some space and self sooth, make a flirtatious joke about next time, suggest an alternative like a cuddle. Maybe only the first of these works, who knows? Experiment and find something that does.

The second thing is to detach from the sulking and leave it alone. Go about business as usual, be positive and upbeat. Detach. It is HER sulking, you needn't own it.

As for the gift, if she doesn't like gifts, then I agree, it isn't a great idea. If you had amazing hot sex before you left and a great trip, how would you be when you got home? Do something good for yourself, get in a good frame of mind, detach and be positive. Think of your three favorite things about W for 2 minutes before you walk in the door.

Nope, I haven't read that book.


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Hi Accuray

I admit to not having read all your posts - so forgive me if I get anything wrong. I dip in and out of your postings and I get a little bit frustrated by the woe is me attitude. However, I accept that you are also coming to terms wit the fact that your wife may just not have the capacity to engage in "love" in the way you, and many mature people, want it.

Two reading suggestions. Passionate Marriage, by David Schnarch, is a book that is talked about on and off with fashionably regularlity around here. I read it 7 or 8 years ago and to be honest, I didn't get it. I'm reading it again now, as a 41 year old woman in an extremely satisfying sexual relationship ... and all the pegs have fallen into place for me. The most fundamental thing I've learned from re-reading Schnarch is the concept that in order to become an amazing sexual partner, you need to be in a position to differetiate yourself from the relationship, in a similar way to the way we "detach" when DBing.

I'm not going to try to explain it, because I won't do it justice - but seriously, read the book, not just for the dirty bits!!! It's gold.

Second, and a little more controversially, read this post from the MLC forum MLC or Passive Aggressive Narcissism

there could be something in it for you. or not!

Good luck.

PS - Hi Captain ... gorgeous pragmatic advice as usual - but sometimes I wish you'd loosen up and have some fun!!!!! You always sound so serious smile Hope you are well. V


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Accuray Offline OP
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Hi Walking,

Sorry for the "woe is me attitude".

I did read Passionate Marriage. I think it did me more harm than good because it got my hopes up for how good things could be. I started down the road of doing the exercises and reading parts of it to W and she didn't want any part of it.

I'll read your MLC or Passive Aggressive Narcissism post.

Accuray


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
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