NOTICE: In order to help the OnLine Community run more efficiently, we will be pruning the boards over the next few weeks. If there are any Topics or Posts you want to keep, please save them soon.
Page 2 of 10 < 1 2 3 4 ... 9 10 >
Topic Options
#2229629 - 03/11/12 02:52 PM Re: Hoping 4 [Re: BklynMom]
purgatory Offline
Member

Registered: 12/12/11
Posts: 825
Loc: Virginia
I too think that a large part of our sitches was the lack of sex. I know that in my M, I could take it or leave it- which made H feel rejected and develop a self-esteem issue. But what I've come to learn, is that all of the other complaints (the anger, the fighting, the lack of affection) fed into a SSM. I have worked really hard to fix all of the other complaints (and I know you have too) but I haven't been able to touch the issue of sex.

I can understand why you might want to have that conversation with him. I know that I would want to explore how all of the new changes could effect the SSM positively.

Like bklyn said: "I just want it all to be on the table before its over."
I don't think any of us want to see our M end without no-stone-left-unturned.
I commend you for being brave enough to approach the topic with your H, I'll pray that some positives can come from it.
_________________________
M-31, H-31
T-9, M-7
S-6, s-20mth
sep 8/1/11
ILYNILWY 11/29/11
Creating separation papers.
Discover H has feelings for BFF, she does too 1/11/12
H moves out 1.20.12

Top
#2230072 - 03/13/12 01:09 AM Re: Hoping 4 [Re: purgatory]
adinva Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2739
Loc: VA
Yep, you're right - that's what my answer to Accuray was going to be. It's very hard to have a conversation about why you weren't having sex, it can end up with big hurt for one or both of you that can impact you to your very core if you let it. I believe it's the elephant in the room and I don't want to leave the stone unturned.

What I expect from it? I want H to know that subject is open for discussion and that I believe it's the biggest factor in why we're divorcing, even if he never brought it up as a reason. I want him to know how I felt and what I wished I/we had done differently. It might get him thinking we're salvageable, but probably not.

It's mostly for me. I don't want to walk away from my kids' dad having been afraid to bring up possibly the most important issue causing the breakup. I want to have that courage and I want to make my point. My point is this happens to a lot of people and I knew it was happening and wanted to get help.
_________________________
Adinva 47 H48
T22 M19 S16 S14
6/15/11 IDLY
6/11-12/12 in-home sep
12/16/12 H moved out
Nothing signed yet
____
Be the change you want to see in the world (Gandhi)

Top
#2230105 - 03/13/12 07:15 AM Re: Hoping 4 [Re: adinva]
Accuray Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 2088
How does that discussion go? Have you thought through what his responses might be? I find it very odd that he never brought it up -- why do you think that is? IMO that's the first place many men will go in terms of complaints. I did have the SSM discussion with W -- I actually had her read the SSM book which is the only one that she read at my request. That was effective at getting the dialog going, but I don't see that being an option for you, is it?

Do you also feel the need to have an OW discussion, or are you still in a position where you don't worry if OW is there or not?

Accuray
_________________________
Married 18, Together 20
M: 45, W: 47, D: 15, S: 13, D: 9
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
ILYBINILWY (again) 7/12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014

Top
#2230114 - 03/13/12 08:21 AM Re: Hoping 4 [Re: Accuray]
ces67 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 1019
Hey Advina,

No idea if the SSM convo is a good idea or not. You present yourself as a very intelligent person and I trust you will know what is right to do.

You may know this as well, but I'll mention it anyway if for no other reason but a reminder. I can't speak for your H, of course, but if you go into the SSM conversation, just remember, the act and/or frequency of sex can be (should be) a much deeper experience than just physical release. Sometimes I think guys get a bad rap for wanting sex for the sake of sex.

Sex can represent, acceptance, love, respect and connectedness to a man. Just having sex more often isn't a solution.

IMHO, if a man is just looking to get laid more often, then maybe he's got an issue of not feeling worthy himself of that deeper level sex can provide in a M. And maybe, your H isn't even able to take himself that deep yet to understand it for himself so he may not even be able to put it into words. You mentioned earlier that the SSM was partially driven by him early on is why I say this.

Again, I may be off base from your sitch and you may have covered this and I missed it. So take it for what its worth.

You are a very intelligent and capable person so whatever you decide to do, I'm certain you'll handle it well. Good luck.
_________________________
Me:45, W:44
S:15, D:12
M:22, T:25
Bomb: July 2010
2 attempts at MC-stopped 09/13
Continue to live in same home-separate rooms

Top
#2230424 - 03/14/12 09:21 AM Re: Hoping 4 [Re: ces67]
adinva Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2739
Loc: VA
It's good that you guys are challenging my thinking a bit. I need to clarify what is it that I feel is so important to say, and what would be my purpose in saying it.

I'd like to let him know that I'm sorry for the hurt I caused. I allowed my past and our difficulty in communicating to become a wall between us. I knew it was there and always felt it was fixable when the time came, when the kids got older and we had more time together, I thought I'd get therapy and we'd fix things. I'm sorry for our marriage and our family that I didn't try harder to understand him. I'd like him to know that I'm learning that even if he wasn't saying anything about it, the rejection of sex probably made him feel bad and so I'm sorry about that.

Purpose in saying it? To demonstrate that not even that subject is off limits, that I am genuinely trying to understand things from his perspective, and that I see I had not been doing that before. That if fear and shame are making it look easier to just move on, I want to be on record that I'm willing to face them and work through them - the door's open if he wants to come through it. To prove to myself that I left no stone unturned. To prove to him that I can have a conversation with him where I don't argue and justify but listen and understand, even on such a potentially hurtful topic. And because, if that's what he's leaving me for and he's letting it go unsaid, I want him to have the opportunity to see my willingness to learn and change.
_________________________
Adinva 47 H48
T22 M19 S16 S14
6/15/11 IDLY
6/11-12/12 in-home sep
12/16/12 H moved out
Nothing signed yet
____
Be the change you want to see in the world (Gandhi)

Top
#2230509 - 03/14/12 12:42 PM Re: Hoping 4 [Re: adinva]
Accuray Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 2088
That's why I feel it is important to have the OW discussion too. If there is someone else, then H will have a block that will prohibit such a caring, soul bearing admission and dialog to have an honest chance of going anywhere.

If OW is involved, H will either immediately duck, cover and flee when the topic is introduced, or will be only too happy to agree that it's all your fault and you made him act this way.

What I fear for you is that you're dealing with a WAH, you don't fully understand what's going on with him. He may say things that you accept and internalize and then regret and beat yourself up for years when what he says is quite frankly B.S.

How about instead of that discussion, you convince yourself that the SSM was a mutual problem that neither of you stepped up to address. Once things started to go sideways, you stepped up and H wouldn't meet you half way.

Why is he worthy of any more soul baring from you if he's not willing to make the slightest effort?

If that conversation goes well, it may give you some degree of peace, but I think it's much more likely to go poorly and leave you feeling worse. Don't let him take any more from you.

Accuray
_________________________
Married 18, Together 20
M: 45, W: 47, D: 15, S: 13, D: 9
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
ILYBINILWY (again) 7/12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014

Top
#2230580 - 03/14/12 03:32 PM Re: Hoping 4 [Re: Accuray]
adinva Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2739
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: Accuray
That's why I feel it is important to have the OW discussion too. If there is someone else, then H will have a block that will prohibit such a caring, soul bearing admission and dialog to have an honest chance of going anywhere.

Well, there are other things that can prohibit the dialog from going anywhere too, such as H's fear of intimacy and avoidance of conflict. Presence or absence of an OW is a symptom, not a cause, in my opinion. Heal the marriage, OW goes away. I don't believe I have a leg to stand on right now to demand that he drop OW if he wants to be with me - he's already made his choice clear. So, any way I look at it, I don't see harm or help in discussing the presence or absence of an OW. I think that's a R conversation that's best avoided. BUT - I don't feel afraid to bring it up or afraid of what I'd hear. My best guess is I'll hear "there is no OW I just don't love you, why don't you get that?" IE, reinforcing his stinkin thinkin.

Originally Posted By: Accuray
If OW is involved, H will either immediately duck, cover and flee when the topic is introduced, or will be only too happy to agree that it's all your fault and you made him act this way.

To which I'll say, as I say to you, I never said it was all my fault. I don't have any control over you and what you think/feel/do. I'm just regretful of and owning my role. And certainly not beating myself up for not having had the tools to create better intimacy. I'm just sorry that I didn't and I'm open to learning them now.

Originally Posted By: Accuray
What I fear for you is that you're dealing with a WAH, you don't fully understand what's going on with him. He may say things that you accept and internalize and then regret and beat yourself up for years when what he says is quite frankly B.S.

Thanks - I love having you in my corner! But I'm a tough birdie. I'm taking from him things that I considered, analyzed, and decided were RIGHT. There's a filter in place. I accept my strengths and weaknesses and think I'm a terrific wife and mother even if I did land here.

Originally Posted By: Accuray
How about instead of that discussion, you convince yourself that the SSM was a mutual problem that neither of you stepped up to address. Once things started to go sideways, you stepped up and H wouldn't meet you half way.

Why is he worthy of any more soul baring from you if he's not willing to make the slightest effort?

It's not a matter of his worthiness; I'm fighting for my family with every tool I've got at my disposal (they're all very soft, understanding, emotional tools, but they're the best tools I've found). And I'm fighting for it because I am worth it. I didn't suck at being a partner then, I don't suck at it now, and I'm the best shot he's got at a happy lifelong family and marriage. If he never comes to the table, well, I tried and I'll move on.

Originally Posted By: Accuray
If that conversation goes well, it may give you some degree of peace, but I think it's much more likely to go poorly and leave you feeling worse. Don't let him take any more from you.

Accuray

If it goes poorly I'll take full responsibility for choosing to open it and for not finding the words to do justice to my honest thoughts and sincere feelings. I can't control what he says or doesn't say so I won't feel bad about that.

Maybe I'll throw in the OW talk as a practice run. smile
_________________________
Adinva 47 H48
T22 M19 S16 S14
6/15/11 IDLY
6/11-12/12 in-home sep
12/16/12 H moved out
Nothing signed yet
____
Be the change you want to see in the world (Gandhi)

Top
#2230937 - 03/15/12 02:59 PM Re: Hoping 4 [Re: adinva]
adinva Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2739
Loc: VA
Journaling about my family's first family counseling session, which was yesterday. It was so interesting, and I was so grateful to have such a family that would be able to participate in something like this. I KNOW when I was a kid I would have put up a much bigger resistance and acted like a complete jerk. So here's how it went:

Beautiful day out, promised S14 he could play outside until I heard back re the exact meeting time, because there had been some mixed communication and I was waiting for a call-back from T.

S14 only got to play for 1/2 hour so he's bummed/pissed, and needs me to drop off his friend on the way, so now I'm running late and a bit anxious. S11 is with us, excited about finally getting to go to this appointment.

S14 is mad because it's all S11's fault that we have to go to this and interrupt his fun. I tell him it's not S11's fault or anyone's fault, it's my and Daddy's decision to do this so we can communicate better and respect one another better. S14 expresses great doubt that Dad is in on this really. I assure S14 that Dad wanted this appointment too just like me.

We get there 10 minutes late and H is waiting in the lobby. I was briefly amused that he didn't just go in and start talking with T, but also glad because we'd probably get the full hour now.

We sat in our chairs and looked all around at each other, and T said, so, tell me why you're here today. After I waited for anyone else to talk I went ahead and said we're here to learn to communicate respectfully as a family when there's something important we need to talk about, so everyone feels heard. S14 says that's not what I thought we were here for. T asks H and H says very emphatically we're here because S14 is bullying S11, S11 isn't listening, in fact neither of them are listening when we're trying to stop them from doing something.

Over the course of the hour we then each got turns to talk, each of us was "the bad guy" about something, each contributed thoughts or ideas. It was very cool to me. H got to say that he felt a 10 out of 10 that teasing someone younger or otherwise not your peer was bullying and wrong. H got to hear that he raises his voice and may need to agree on something different to be more effective when really trying to get serious attention.

S14 got to hear - and agreed - that teasing and joking can be great, it's a great skill, but must come with judgment about when it is appropriate. Must stop when the line is crossed - needs our help in the family to learn where that line is. He gets away with it with teachers because he's charming, but he heard that as adults, or even as a high schooler, there will be much less tolerance and he's going to have to learn when and where it's OK.

S11 got to talk about how he feels when S14 teases him. We all talked about whether continued teasing will "toughen him up" or actually harm him. S14 would like him to toughen up, and T invited him to help S11 learn to be less sensitive by using feedback in words but stopping the teasing at the point that S11 is getting upset.

I got to talk about my frustration when they're at each other and I have to repeatedly try to get their attention to stop them, and then S14 mimics me to continue the teasing and joking. I said I needed a way to let them know when I'm really serious and need them to hear me. S14 said Mom you're always joking - we can't tell when you're serious because you start laughing. That was surprising to me - I wouldn't have said that about myself. But he is irresistably funny and I love him so. So I learned I need to be more firm, quiet and make eye contact, or hold his face in my hands and no laughing when I really need to get his attention. Or call him into another room to discuss his behavior.

We all agreed that we care about each other. Of course it was a joke - T had convoluted her sentence so it came out something like would you not say that you don't care about each other? Dead silence... Finally S14 says, uh, I'm not sure how to answer that? No? and everyone started laughing because it was a double negative. So S14 said he cared. I said I would not say that I don't care. Our family breaks tension by laughing, and having grown up in a tense family I think it's wonderful.

We all agreed that we'd try having meetings that anyone can call, that involve all of us, and we'll try working out a conflict in that way. Even a kid can call one about a parent.

So, the kids went home with H and I wish I was a fly in their car. At home later, I told S14 how very proud I was of him that he had such poise and confidence to participate in that session so well. He said it seemed pointless to him. I said that's OK it was very important to me and I appreciated it.

S11 called about four family meetings from 7 to 9pm, every time something S14 did annoyed him. I think he feels a lot more empowered.

We'll see if this sticks, but I loved that H came to back me up in this and he did great.

None of this has anything to do with DB but it made me happy.
_________________________
Adinva 47 H48
T22 M19 S16 S14
6/15/11 IDLY
6/11-12/12 in-home sep
12/16/12 H moved out
Nothing signed yet
____
Be the change you want to see in the world (Gandhi)

Top
#2230986 - 03/15/12 06:30 PM Re: Hoping 4 [Re: adinva]
adinva Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2739
Loc: VA
Today when H got home I was just taking meatloaf out of the oven and offered him some, and he ate and mentioned he was going to the gym (I'm adding all of this so it doesn't look like I came running out of the house nagging about counseling as he drove up smile ) and then I told him how much I appreciated him being there yesterday and mentioned how S14 hadn't believed that H was really in on the whole idea of it. H talked to S11 a little about it. Not beating a dead horse, but I thanked him.

But we're still probably getting divorced.
_________________________
Adinva 47 H48
T22 M19 S16 S14
6/15/11 IDLY
6/11-12/12 in-home sep
12/16/12 H moved out
Nothing signed yet
____
Be the change you want to see in the world (Gandhi)

Top
#2231040 - 03/15/12 10:35 PM Re: Hoping 4 [Re: adinva]
ces67 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 1019
Hey, glad the session went well. I hope you see positive changes from it.

Sounds like you gave some good affirmations to your H about his part which is good as well. Sorry you still feel the D is on.

Just remember that none of us can truly predict the future and if you have any hope, then hope still exists.
_________________________
Me:45, W:44
S:15, D:12
M:22, T:25
Bomb: July 2010
2 attempts at MC-stopped 09/13
Continue to live in same home-separate rooms

Top
Page 2 of 10 < 1 2 3 4 ... 9 10 >


Moderator:  dbmod, Virginia 

Save Your Marriage! Schedule Online

Schedule a phone consultation with a Divorce Busting® Coach! Call: 800-664-2435 or 303-444-7004