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#2230226 - 03/13/12 06:25 PM Re: (NA) Informally separated from WAW, but DBing my best [Re: AlwaysTrying]
AlwaysTrying Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 243
I'm distracted waiting for my call with DB coach Laurie today.

I think I'm realizing that I've signed myself up for months or years of limbo because I believe that fixing the marriage is by far what is best for the kids. W still wants to be a good mom, but doesn't see repairing her marriage as part of that.

Two months from now, my trial separation is up and I'm free to move back into the house. I just need one simple thing from my wife - I need her to agree to see someone with me about our MR. If she can't see the value of that in all this time, I don't know what to say.

I think I can go another two weeks without saying anything, but after that I'm going to ask her to talk to Laurie or someone else with me.

Or, am I not allowed to do that? Am I not allowed to talk to my W about counseling?

I'm just so tired of her "not fixable" attitude. Most of the problems I find around the house are also not fixable - unless I open my toolbox.

I don't need to say this now, but I feel like in the next two weeks, when the time is right, I have to say some version of "The most important gift we can give our kids is a strong home with a strong marriage. I can feel that we've tried our best to do that if we can make one more attempt to understand our problems with a couple's conselor."
_________________________
- All for the kids -
Me:34, W:35
M:7, T:13
S6, D3 + my D15 from previous marriage
July 2011 "I think I need a separation"
W filed D September
Currently living apart - she has the house, I rent a room

Top
#2230301 - 03/13/12 09:37 PM Re: (NA) Informally separated from WAW, but DBing my best [Re: AlwaysTrying]
labug Online
Member

Registered: 11/25/11
Posts: 8686
Loc: Sonoran Desert
How'd your talk with Laurie go?
_________________________
Me 57/H 58
M35 S24 S21
Bomb 3/11 Sep 3/11
Piecing 9/13 12/13 Reconciling

"We can make ourselves miserable, or we can make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same"~Carlos Castenada

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#2230441 - 03/14/12 02:04 PM Re: (NA) Informally separated from WAW, but DBing my best [Re: labug]
AlwaysTrying Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 243
Talks with DB coaches are always great. They make you feel more at ease and less out of control. They give you hope that you are doing the right thing and validate and affirm your choice to try to save your marriage against the odds. And they make you feel more sympathetic toward your spouse and more capable of using a gentle patient approach.

Laurie said that when she talked to my wife, W echoed a lot of what I said and there were no surprises. W is really concerned with separating the finances. Laurie said another topic W wanted to talk about was helping me accept what is coming. Obviously not what I wanted to hear. And Laurie said that toward the end, W got anxious and said she felt pressured about getting on the phone with both Laurie and me. Laurie thought it best to take the pressure off and cancel the call.

Laurie and I talked about what is going on now. I agreed that there was more I could do to separate finances, and I would work on that. We talked a lot about W's need for more space. She suggested I ask "If you were getting enough space, what would our schedule look like over the next two weeks?". We talked about the possibility that maybe I would try not to see her at all for that period. I was also going to say something along the lines of, "I'm worried that I can be forgetful. Is there something you have asked for that you feel that I'm not giving you or not remembering?" also "Are there ways you are feeling pressured that I can take away?" Laurie also said to figure out when W feels it's safe to talk to me.

The plan was not to hit her with this all at once, and to listen, validate, not be defensive. Also, not to push back at all when she tells me what she needs.

Then late last night when she came home a little late from kickboxing, I was ironing my shirts. She said she has to tell me something and that I should probably put the heavy object down first...
_________________________
- All for the kids -
Me:34, W:35
M:7, T:13
S6, D3 + my D15 from previous marriage
July 2011 "I think I need a separation"
W filed D September
Currently living apart - she has the house, I rent a room

Top
#2230448 - 03/14/12 02:33 PM Re: (NA) Informally separated from WAW, but DBing my best [Re: AlwaysTrying]
AlwaysTrying Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 243
W had her taxes done. 1) It's going to cost us more money to file separately. 2) She did it because I owe quarterly taxes from last year and she is trying to separate herself from that debt.

We owe taxes because I was underemployed and didn't have enough to make ends meet. I told her, "Where do you think that debt comes from? We didn't have enough. I gave you all the money I had." This made her *really* mad. "You gave *me* all your money!?!?! <huff><huff>"

The conversation lasted for probably an hour, and was 90% calm. She said that in order for there to be some hope of reconciliation, she needed us to have separate houses. The current arrangement when she sees me several times a week isn't going to work. I reminded her that I've been asking her for weeks how we need to adjust our arrangement so that it works for her. She said, "I told you long ago. I need a separation. You're never going to be able to do it." She brought up the spying. I brought up the OM, how she was behaving suspiciously. I said I wished that had never happened. I cried just a little bit when I told her how much it hurt to read what she and OM were saying to each other.

That did not go well. I took an ambien so I could get to sleep.

W says the separation she needs is where we have two houses and I take the kids to my house when I have them and she doesn't see me at church, or possibly ever. W and I can't really afford two houses and an extra set of stuff for the kids.

I want to tell her that I can give her a separation, but I have to be sure there is not something I can do that is better for the kids. I believe she has sabotaged efforts to make this arrangement work by refusing to talk about what she needs. (I can't believe how selfish she is all the time. I wish I never married her. I wish she would just disappear and leave me with the kids and not ever talk to me again until she is able to think of other people. I am so frustrated!) I want to point out how expensive and painful this will be, and that I have a responsibility to my kids to try to find a better way if it is possible.

I want her to come to 4 counseling sessions with me over the next month to explore whether there may be an alternative to getting the kids two sets of bedrooms and houses to live in and all that other stuff. That crosses a line for me, and all this "Kids are resilient" crap makes me want to punch people in the face.
_________________________
- All for the kids -
Me:34, W:35
M:7, T:13
S6, D3 + my D15 from previous marriage
July 2011 "I think I need a separation"
W filed D September
Currently living apart - she has the house, I rent a room

Top
#2230625 - 03/14/12 09:35 PM Re: (NA) Informally separated from WAW, but DBing my best [Re: AlwaysTrying]
AlwaysTrying Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 243
I'm considering whether it makes sense for me to assume all debt.

I really blamed her for my debilitating depression after she dropped the bomb and considered it shared debt. But that debt is also a pretty close accounting of how far I was failing to pay my share. Immediately when she dropped the bomb in July, she was talking about separation to protect herself financially.

She was worried that I was going to cause us a new bankruptcy.

I'm pretty sure an attorney will tell me that the debt is shared marital responsibility. And I'm pretty sure that if she leaves me with the house, even with zero child support, it is going to be a real challenge for me to pay off that debt on my own.

Maybe the "right" thing for me to do is to own that debt going forward no matter what happens. Maybe if I agree to do so, W won't be pushing so hard to get away.
_________________________
- All for the kids -
Me:34, W:35
M:7, T:13
S6, D3 + my D15 from previous marriage
July 2011 "I think I need a separation"
W filed D September
Currently living apart - she has the house, I rent a room

Top
#2230717 - 03/15/12 03:26 AM Re: (NA) Informally separated from WAW, but DBing my best [Re: AlwaysTrying]
AlwaysTrying Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 243
I wrote W a letter today. My goal was to express why I feel how I do about marriage and family without hitting W with guilt and shame, and why I feel like I have to do whatever it takes to protect our family. And if that is backing off and giving space, then that is fine, but getting two separate households is too far for me. If she'll agree to see a MC with me 4 times so we can see if we can improve our situation enough that she doesn't think separate homes are the *only* way out, I'll feel that I've done all I can and go with her.

I didn't send the letter. I think I need to back off right now, not press.

Ambien is finally kicking in. I guess I'm done posting for the day.
_________________________
- All for the kids -
Me:34, W:35
M:7, T:13
S6, D3 + my D15 from previous marriage
July 2011 "I think I need a separation"
W filed D September
Currently living apart - she has the house, I rent a room

Top
#2230796 - 03/15/12 01:26 PM Re: (NA) Informally separated from WAW, but DBing my best [Re: AlwaysTrying]
AlwaysTrying Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 243
So... any ideas on how to ask her to not move out without pursuing her?
_________________________
- All for the kids -
Me:34, W:35
M:7, T:13
S6, D3 + my D15 from previous marriage
July 2011 "I think I need a separation"
W filed D September
Currently living apart - she has the house, I rent a room

Top
#2230798 - 03/15/12 01:29 PM Re: (NA) Informally separated from WAW, but DBing my best [Re: AlwaysTrying]
sayitaintso Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/11
Posts: 951
AT- Tough times for sure. My w moved out 8 months ago, 3 kids, its hard!

Please share any important letters or emails you are planning on sending her here so you can get some input from us to see if it is going to help you towards your goals.

So is the letter an ultimatum? What are you prepared to do if she doesn't agree? Why do you feel the need to send it, don't you think she knows how you feel about the seperation already?

IMO your wife needs space and you need to give it to her to have a chance.

What are you doing to GAL? What are you doing for you?

Keep posting.

Best!!
_________________________
Me- 34 W-33
S15 S10 S6
Married- 11 Together- 18
Bomb- 6-2011
WAW moves out- 8-2011

"Nothing in the Universe can stop you from letting go and starting over at anytime"- Guy Finley

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#2230950 - 03/15/12 07:46 PM Re: (NA) Informally separated from WAW, but DBing my best [Re: sayitaintso]
AlwaysTrying Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 243
Originally Posted By: sayitaintso
AT- Tough times for sure. My w moved out 8 months ago, 3 kids, its hard!


I'm really sorry. It kills me not to see my kids every day. D15 came to the realization this morning that I'm actually not pathetic at all. I'm not hung up on W, but bearing whatever pain she throws my way while doing whatever is in my power to protect my family. It was nice to hear her say that.

Originally Posted By: sayitaintso
So is the letter an ultimatum? What are you prepared to do if she doesn't agree? Why do you feel the need to send it, don't you think she knows how you feel about the seperation already?


The letter is not an ultimatum. It's more of an urging. I decided not to send it. I'll post it in my next post.

W hasn't moved out yet. My goal right now is to do whatever it takes to make W comfortable staying in the house while we allow DBing to happen, while giving her ample space and trying not to make her feel pressured or manipulated.

But I feel I have to make it clear:
1) I feel that moving into two houses will cause a significant trauma to the children. I feel it should be avoided if possible.
2) I do not feel that we have begun to tap my willingness to give you enough space to make something like our children's current living arrangement comfortable for you, W.
3) If you will meet me for four sessions over the next month or so with someone to mediate and help us communicate about what can make this arrangement work, and it does not produce results you can be comfortable with, I can concede that we did what we could to avoid this step and remove barriers to your moving out, W.


You're right, she knows how I feel, maybe? I've certainly said most of what can be said, but she still doesn't hear me over her anger and distortions. My words don't mean to her what they mean to me coming out, but she does some Voodoo WAW magic and they become something different.

I feel I need to say something because she is convinced that there is no way for us to heal in this arrangement. I want her to know that if she will give this an honest try (I can give her space, I just want the kids to be able to keep their home), I can accept the outcome if it doesn't work.

Originally Posted By: sayitaintso
IMO your wife needs space and you need to give it to her to have a chance.

What are you doing to GAL? What are you doing for you?

Keep posting.

Best!!


I have been working to increase space. I stopped sending her emails two weeks ago. I keep texts to a minimum. But I do see her Tuesdays, Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays. Honestly, I think things may have been getting better here and there, but coming home to have it out over the taxes had her spitting bile again.

The thing is, she doesn't tell me when things are not working. She just decides more divorce. It is so frustrating. After I moved home, ruined everything (She was thinking of R, but unwilling to say, "If you do this, I'll file D". She filed D. I was shocked.) I spent a month or two at home with her thinking things were getting better until about two weeks before our court date she became a nervous wreck and made it clear to me that she was going crazy being in the house with me.

I want her to meet with me and a counselor and ask/plan for something to take the pressure off and see what happens. I'm so tired of communication being so broken.

We have two major challenges that I can't easily 180 myself out of. One is that I spied on her when I became worried about the OM and whether she was planning to destroy me with lawyers. I invaded her privacy and she thinks about it all the time. She got new computers and does most of her OM correspondence on an iPad he gave her over 3G instead of wifi. The pain won't go away. If that event - my spying on her - were an arm, I'd probably cut it off and burn it. I can't make it disappear and I know that trust takes a long time to rebuild.

The other problem is the money. She tried to isolate herself from me financially back in July because she was afraid of me melting down and going bankrupt. Well, her talking separation or divorce sent me into a meltdown and put me 15k or so in debt. My hanging on and slowing down her process probably means we share that debt together and I can stick her with half of it in a D. But she's trying to divorce the guy who got into that mess - the one who couldn't focus on work or bill clients or keep his [censored] together.

That figure - the 15k - is the shortfall between what I produced last year, and what I needed to produce to keep our family fed and housed and not bankrupt. I blamed her for my depression and fixed on the idea that we would share the cost. I think to make this go away, I need to find a way to shoulder that debt on my own. And if we get D'ed anyway, that is a terrible plan because I won't be able to pay the bills and handle the debt. frown

If she stays in the house, we don't have to buy new furniture, and I keep renting a room for $115 a week instead of two separate expensive places to be, I can pay down the debt.


GAL? Mostly I work and I'm with the kids. I'm making a facebook game for fun. Learning to cook!!! that's been a good one. I'm planning on reaching out to see if some other people want to help me with my game so I'll have some more human interaction in my life.
_________________________
- All for the kids -
Me:34, W:35
M:7, T:13
S6, D3 + my D15 from previous marriage
July 2011 "I think I need a separation"
W filed D September
Currently living apart - she has the house, I rent a room

Top
#2230951 - 03/15/12 07:58 PM Re: (NA) Informally separated from WAW, but DBing my best [Re: AlwaysTrying]
AlwaysTrying Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 243
"IMO your wife needs space and you need to give it to her to have a chance."

Right on. And I want badly to give it to her. I just want to do it in a way that doesn't throw my kids' lives into chaos. It's not OK.

I can back waaaaaaaaaaay off. I would just like her to come talk to someone so we can find ways of doing that and stop acting like it's just not possible.

She's asking permission to go live her life in a very selfish way and I'm not giving it.
_________________________
- All for the kids -
Me:34, W:35
M:7, T:13
S6, D3 + my D15 from previous marriage
July 2011 "I think I need a separation"
W filed D September
Currently living apart - she has the house, I rent a room

Top
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