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Quote:
It's not just about what you say to whom, though. It's really about where you are emotionally. If you were detached, you not only would not say anything about it to her, but you also would not feel as much of a need to vent about it here on the boards. The attachment not only makes day-to-day life harder and more painful, it also can hinder your ability to live your separate life to the fullest (because you keep looking over your shoulder wondering what she would think of your doing YYYY, or wondering what on earth she is thinking to do XXX, etc.).

It may be scary for you to think about, but if you were a little more detached from her and the outcome, you would be coming from a stronger place, and life would be more fulfilling.


OK, the looking over my shoulder is definitely something I am guilty of. I know what you are saying about being detached. You have been trying to drive that point home for months now. At times I feel like I am detached but then events have a way of proving me wrong. So, clearly I need to detach more.

Quote:
Detaching is not the same as filing for divorce nor is it even the same as LRT/no contact. It is simply your state of mind in relation to her feelings and actions. You could be physically living with your W and still be fully detached from her (and not mean, uncaring or ignoring). She could be witness to all of your changes while you are detached from her. It's really important that you get what it means to be detached.


I really thought I was there, especially before my W’s medical crisis drew me back into her orbit.

Quote:
The idea of planting seeds "in order for your W to see changes" is also a form of control. Let your W be and love who she wants to. Change yourself because it's the right way to be, NOT in order to win her back.


What I was referring to in “planting seeds” was that while I was caring for my W during her illness, I had an opportunity to demonstrate my loving, caring nature; something that was always there but had been dormant for some time. Acts of service that fill her tank were provided whenever appropriate and my hope is that she will see that I am capable of being that loving caring person. I just felt that she needed to see that I am capable. Guess what you are saying is that it was more a negative “control” action on my part. Ugh!

Quote:
Think of her relationship to OM/A as an addiction, and the below may make more sense to you? Here are some particularly relevant concepts relevant:

Fourth: Admit to yourself that there is only one person you can change and that is yourself and that for your serenity you need to let go of the "need" to fix, change, or rescue...other persons, places and things.

Fifth: Recognize that it is "sick" and "unhealthy" to believe that you have the power or control enough to fix, correct, change, heal or rescue another person, place or thing if they do not...see a need to change.

Seventh: Continue to own your feelings as your responsibility and not blame others for the way you feel.

Eighth: Accept personal responsibility for your own unhealthy actions, feelings and thinking and cease looking for the persons, places or things you can blame for your unhealthiness.

Tenth: Accept that...people...in your current life are "irrational,"...influences in your life, label them honestly for what they truly are, and stop minimizing their negative impact in your life.

Eleventh: Reduce the impact of guilt...which impede your ability to develop detachment in your life.

Twelfth: Practice "letting go" of the need to correct, fix or [change] the persons...in life over which you have no control or power to change.


Thanks for sharing the tips/concepts. Certainly something to think about.

Quote:
If you do something IN ORDER TO influence someone else's feelings about you or with some EXPECTATION of the effect it might have on someone else's feelings or behavior, then it is controlling behavior. You are trying to control them (or their feelings) via your behavior. If you do it simply because you love/care for them and with no expectation/hope/contingency, then it really is giving/unconditional behavior.

I did the acts of service as a loving and caring gesture…. Again, I didn’t consider it as controlling. But to be honest and as I stated above, it was also to demonstrate my ability and capacity to act in a loving way towards my W. And yes I had hoped she noticed. My bad!!

Quote:
Active, declarative statements.

"W, I know you've been through hell and back. I'm here to help. I am going to stay in the guest bedroom until you are well enough to take care of yourself. When I go back to my place, I also can take the kids with me for a few nights, if you need, so that you can have more time to get strong on your own. In the meantime, let me know what I can help with. What sounds good for dinner, W?"

Then when you thought she seemed close to well enough

"OK, W. You seem to be getting better and better. I am thinking of going back to my place tomorrow (or 2 days from now). How about we take the rest of today (and tomorrow) as a transition/dress rehearsal to see how you can manage on your own, but with me still here to help?"

If she still wants you there then, she will ASK YOU. Psychologically, it is coming from a very different place if she asks you to stay vs. accedes for you to stay (or worse asks you to leave).


Damage already done, I suppose. Next time……

Quote:
Would you not go to yoga with a female friend if you and W were happily married? Or is there some chemistry with this female friend? Some hot chaturanga running through your mind?


I would not be going to yoga with a female friend that my W did not know if I were happily married. I would hope my W would go with me instead. Of course that is not her thing, so I guess I’d be going alone. But I would prefer the studio in your “yoga girl” video! laugh

Quote:
The wedding ring is a very personal thing. I took mine off a few months in, then put it back on, then took mine off again. In the end, my W put hers back on again before I did. All kinds of reasons to wear or not wear it. I took mine off for the extended time when I decided that there was no point in wearing it anymore -- who was I married to if there was no one else symbolically wearing theirs in return? I totally get where you are coming from in wearing it, though.

Two things I CAN tell you, if you are wearing it because you are concerned that your taking it off would have a NEGATIVE effect on her, 1) you are not detached from her AND 2) the concern is misplaced.


I am wearing my ring more as a symbol that I have not given up on my M or my commitment. I hadn’t really considered my W’s reaction if I were to stop wearing the ring. I’m not really sure what her reaction would be, although I’m pretty sure she’d notice it almost immediately.

Again, Thanks Busto for the post. Gives me lots to consider.


Me51 W53 S17 S14
M22 T25
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife
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Originally Posted By: 2
Acts of service that fill her tank were provided whenever appropriate and my hope is that she will see that I am capable of being that loving caring person. I just felt that she needed to see that I am capable.


I think Busto made the point very well and that you are hearing it.

...just making sure you also see it.


My goal is to some day be the person my dog thinks I am
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Re: acts of service and giving, this really is a big opportunity for you, 2thepoint. I went through and continue to go through the same process.

Many of us grow up with the implicit idea of doing nice things for others because it elicits a positive response for ourselves (praise from others about being "selfless," nice behavior or loving actions in return that helps us feel connected or relieves anxiety about not feeling connected). A good clue that we are doing the behaviors for those reasons (rather than out of true giving/unconditional selflessness) is when we develop feelings of disappointment, sadness, anxiety or resentment if the "desired" outcome is not attained.

If we truly were giving, the desired outcome would simply be that we gave.

Because we care so much about our R's/M's (and ourselves in terms of the emotional security that we derive from them), we can engage in all kinds of ostensibly "giving" behavior IN ORDER TO...(show them that we can be giving, show them that we can be loving, etc. etc.). The irony is that we aren't really giving then, it's truly about ourselves and our needs.

And there are two big relationship problems that can develop if we "give" in these co-dependent ways. One is the person that we are trying to subconsciously influence/elicit a reaction from may not like being controlled (if they perceive it that way). The other is that we can become sad/resentful/withdrawn/angry that we didn't subconsciously get the tit that we were hoping to get for our tat. And that negative emotion may further hamper the R dynamic.

A solution is to really work on giving unconditionally and without expectation -- this is a process of being truly honest with yourself re: WHY you are doing the behavior (is it to show her something, or with hopes that it will change something in her? or is it simply to give to her?). Acts of service ARE very important in relationships; you just need to get to the point when they are motivated as JUST acts of service FOR your partner and not acts of service (partly) FOR 2pac.

A second solution (for when you are in an R) is to ask or openly talk about whatever it is that you might otherwise be trying to achieve covertly through your behavior.

And a third solution is to assess or work on whatever feelings in you are motivating the behavior. In your case, it might be the great fear that your W may not notice your changes or, at its base, that she will not come back to you and be lost to you. It is hard not to act on such strong feelings. But, it is possible to by cognitive methods and detachment.


Me-53
W-49
D22,D18,D15
T-Since-12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Piecing start-04/2011
Now-together
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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
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Busto, thanks for the post. I need to think about it and will reply later. In the meantime could use some advice from anyone willing to provide it regarding an interaction that occurred earlier today.

First some background:

W's first Dr. appointment since being released from the hospital was today at 12pm. I had planned to go with her. Yesterday we had a text exchange that reads as follows:

W - U can't come 2morrow cuz Grady (S10's friend) will be here and S13 needs to be at paintball at 11.

Me - Yes, I just realized that. Crap! Can you conference me in? smile

W - No but I'll take notes. What time is your interview?

Me - 2pm. Don't worry I'll hang at the house with the boys and take my interview from there. What time is Grady coming over?

W - 8

So this ^^^ is the information I had to work from. I deduce from this exchange that I will need to be at the house around 8am and hang with S10 and his friend while my W takes S13 to paintball at 11 and continues on to her appointment at 12. I will then take my telephone interview call from the house at 2pm.

So I get to the house and W is asleep. She rises about 10:15 or so and she is gathering things for S13's paintball. I ask her when are you leaving to take S13 to paintball. She immediately gets pissed and says "we talked about this and you said you ere going to take him! I have to be at the Dr's at 11:30!"

I respond, "I thought your appointment isn't until 12." She says, "they want me here at 11:30." I said, "Oh, I didn't realize they wanted you there early."

She throws some money on the counter and storms out of the kitchen and into her room, slamming the door. The exchange lasted exactly as long as it took you to read it. About 15-20 seconds.

So given this new set of information I see W will be unable to get S13 to paintball and make her appointment on time because the travel distance is too great and she'll be late.

So I pack up all the kids (S13, S10 and his friend) and we head off to drop S13 at paintball. Before I left I send my W the following text:

Me - Sorry you are upset. We did not cover the logistics of S13 or that you needed to be at your Dr at 11:30. Because we did not cover it, I had assumed you would drop S13 off at 11 and thought 60 minutes would be plenty of time to make your appointment at 12. I further assumed that I would stay behind with S10 and his friend. My bad for assuming. I'll take S13 and S10 and his friend with me. good luck with your appointment.....

W - .....And FYI, these are the logistics I work out all the time.

Me - Yes you do, but when it involves others it helps to communicate them.

So that was it. I did not have any emotion during my W's testy face to face exchange. I wasn't even bothered to take all the boys with me to drop S13 off at paintball.

I will admit however that I started to get agitated when she responded about the logistics she "works out all the time." I got agitated because she thinks she has these conversations with me when she doesn't. I made a point of communicating what I was doing via text so that she could be reminded of the prior exchange and how I might not have all the pertinent information to arrive at the same place she apparently did.

This example ties perfectly with the conversation I had with her a week or so ago about how she needs to be clear in what she wants, needs, expects so that I don't go into assumption/fixit/control mode. She agreed at the time but to my mind missed it in this example.

So how could I have handled this differently?


Me51 W53 S17 S14
M22 T25
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife
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This exchanges seems oddly familiar!!

From what I see, you both made assumptions and then acted on the assumptions and neither communicated clearly what was actually needed.

The only thing I see is that your initial response sounds defensive and could be read as "blaming" by your W. Her response, of course was very accusatory, but you can't control her.

Small interactions like this make it very easy to fall into routine patterns because they seem like no big deal. Maybe next time, stop and look at what information is actually there vs. what you may be assuming and then clarify what is needed before acting (?). otherwise, it was a lousy exchange and its over.

Hope you hear how the dr. appoint went and that it went well.


Me:45, W:45
S:16 D:13
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Honestly, I think you handled it just fine. You didn't get upset. Afterward you expressed clearly why there was a misunderstanding and then deflected her testy reply with information on how to avoid this kind of thing next time(communitcate the logistics). I'd be interested to know what others think.

Given this exchange and your involvement with your h during her recent illness, it does seem like some fresh detachment is in order, not to punish her, but to find your equilibrium again.

Mimi


M:37; H:37; M:10 years;T:13 years;no kids.
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OK, I do agree with ces that clarifying earlier rather than assuming would have made things smoother all around. But I did not read 2p's initial response as blaming, but as an attempt to explain his thought process.


M:37; H:37; M:10 years;T:13 years;no kids.
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CES and Mimi, thank you both for your perspective. I hope others will chime in as well as I really want to get this right and the more perspective I can get the better.

Meanwhile, I have a quick update.

=======================

W gets home and gives me an update on her medical condition after meeting with her cardiologist. Turns out her healing is progressing well and the Dr says that 90 days is the usual time frame for hearts to heal from medical stress (wonder if he has an opinion on broken hearts wink ). He wants to extend her disability for several more weeks so she will need to have him sign some paperwork. Also learned that her medical prescription had the wrong dosage which explains her being tired, confused and cranky. So we will be getting that fixed, pronto!

================

Had another interview (3rd so far for same position, with 4th scheduled for Thursday), I think it went really well. My first clue was during my follow up question I asked the interviewer what they are looking for in the best person to fill the position and his response was "pretty much everything you have shared with me in your professional background." Sounds pretty positive to me!!!

===================

So later I am filling in my W on how the interview went and we seem to be communicating well and so I ask her if we could talk about this morning. The first words out of her mouth were "I'm sorry."

I told her that I wasn't looking for an apology but I wanted to explain what I covered in my previous post about assuming things based on only being provided limited information. I went on to explain that we had talked about this very thing a few weeks ago and that we agreed to do better at telling each other exactly what we wanted so we can avoid this type of conflict.

She again sad she was sorry and then asked how I thought logistics were going to flow this morning and I again explained that I thought she would take S13 to paintball and still have 60 minutes to get to her appointment and I'd stay home with S10 and his friend. Anyway, we came to an understanding and put that little episode behind us.

I'd still like additional perspective on ways to avoid this type of conflict in the future.


Me51 W53 S17 S14
M22 T25
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

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I wrote a great reply and then forgot to hit submit.

But CS says it better on Denver's thread:


Originally Posted By: cs
Women are stupid. They expect we understand.

Men are stupid. We expect them to understand.


with far fewer words.


Me 57/H 58
M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering.
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that's great that you all worked it out and she owned part of it as well! Glad to hear she is recovering well also. And "Amen" on a reason for the extra fatigue & irritations!

Great news on the job interview as well! Hope it keeps going that way and you get some great news soon.


Me:45, W:45
S:16 D:13
M:22, T:25
Bomb: July 2010
Putting finances in order for "D"
Continue to live in same home-separate rooms
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