am i on the right track??? part 2

[~ kd ~]

but here's the problem KD- i was the "wrath of a woman" side all the time, and my 180 is to be patient, quiet, pleasant and understanding. i have not lost it with h since the beginning of this sitch except for twice when he really went over the line - and i know 100% that he has been amazed and awed -

You know YOU best, but I do want to ask for some deeper honesty, here... were you really h3ll on wheels ALL the time?

OK, maybe you needed to replace your pressure valve because it wore out and opened too often... but I've not yet met a woman that exploded at everything... more likely you felt that way... so when your H tells you that is the case, you think it showed up more than it really did...

But... let's say that is a truth...

Then the second part of the above, that is great! THAT is appropriate! Keep doing that...

But you need consistency... and you can't deny your motherly instincts to protect your children...

So when it is appropriate, you need to not be afraid to be that momma bear...

Make sense?

My theme this week is the "double bind". Look it up in your favourite resource...

Intense feelings of frustration and anger often can find it's root in being in a double bind.

It does not have to own you, take your power back.

Because it sounds like your H has convinced you that your anger is what pushed him away, so you are seeking to get rid of ALL your anger, hoping it will win him back, because if it shows up again, it will just be more proof to him that you haven't changed...

He needs you to be in the double bind, because it is his power and control over you so that he can deny any problem with him and not have to do his own, internal work...

When you feel yourself begin to vibrate in your boots... look for that double bind...

[zig]

wow - thanks for telling me how you do it - it really helps.i love your analogy of the tidal wave. i envy that you have the ability to talk to your kids in that way. you sound really special:)

in the beginning when we first told s, h insisted that we keep a united front and went along with it - giving the impression that we both decided. i think s didn't buy it though - he clearly sees it as h having left - what he is finding out is that i am the constant, no matter what, and h comes and goes at his convenience in a way.

here's what happens when i try to talk to son about it - i don't know what you are talking about. what's the problem , why do you keep saying something is wrong? everything is fine, i'm just going with the flow

if i imply that this might be hard for him, i just get the same response or silence or him getting really mad about something else while he's trying not to cry.

i believe that there are 2 things at play here - my own inability to bring it up in a way which helps him to open up and the exact character traits in him which are in h which brought us to this sitch.

no matter how bad they feel, they will NOT under any circumstances admit to it and will instead get angry at the other person for even suggesting that they don't feel good. i couldn't get through to h because of that for all our marriage, and so i guess now when i have to face it in s, i find myself feeling utterly helpless.

ironically - when h walked away, he managed to open that part of him that allowed himself to let out a decade of feelings and he is allowing me to validate them now.

[zig]

oh Kaffe - you are seriously BRILLIANT!

i have to go do a couple of things and then i shall answer, but wanted to let you know that you just bloody hit the nail on the head as they say over the pond!!

in one flash you made me see it so clearly AND made me feel so much better

thank the universe i found this place and all you great people - those WAS's are seriously missing out here

[finding nemo]

OK, I have another suggestion for you, one my mom gave me to help talk with my S14. Instead of having a face-to-face discussion with your son, try driving around. He can let his guard down becase he doesn't have to make eye contact with you. Just keep driving until you feel like he's said what he needs to say.

My H also tried to convince me to say that "Mommy and Daddy decided it would be best..." I changed the script and said "It has been decided that..." I also told him I would not lie to my children for him or protect him over my children.

I know it'll be hard to change the script now, but keep in mind that you need to let your son know that this is not your choice and you're working your way through it and want to help your son however you can.

You can do this! HUGS!!!

[zig]

You know YOU best, but I do want to ask for some deeper honesty, here... were you really h3ll on wheels ALL the time?

you're right - i wasn't. but i would get really fired up when he kept pushing me. i would beg him to give me some space, let me have a quiet moment, but no - about a couple of minutes was all i got and then i would lose it after an hour or so

on the other hand, i "nagged" - actually asking him on the way out the door if he remembered the diaper bag was the equivalent of telling him he was the most useless person on earth in his mind - the question implied heavy criticism

but don't forget - if you haven't read all of my thread - from oct 2006 to last spring i was in the throes of concussion and post concussion syndrome with a movement disorder and extremely high levels of anxiety and fear, and he had way to much to deal with. i went to therapy but he wouldn't participate and things got intolerably bad, we both got very depressed and until about a year ago it looked as if i would be helpless, disabled and depressed for the rest of my life. i believe that some version of ptsd plays a role in his doing this. you have no idea what i looked like - i'm in my 40's but i looked 90 - it was so painful for the people around me - they felt utterly helpless and so did i. he felt the most helpless, and it took a real toll on our relationship, but ultimately it took the biggest toll on him. he didn't understand at the time that he needed serious support so that he could help me in the right way and more importantly help himself by understanding that my behavior was not about him but about the serious struggles that coping with basic everyday things caused me to have extremely high levels of anxiety because my brain that got bonked twice in 2 car accidents had caused to happen.


OK, maybe you needed to replace your pressure valve because it wore out and opened too often... but I've not yet met a woman that exploded at everything... more likely you felt that way... so when your H tells you that is the case, you think it showed up more than it really did...

for h - showing an emotion as mild as irritation made him insist that our entire marriage was [censored]. if we had an argument, it meant that everything was lost. his mom has told me that she and his dad have never once so much as argued(40 yrs last year, with 4 affairs spread out) - their counselor once asked them if they always talked to each other in that even, mild, tone and when they told him yes always 100%, no matter what was going on, he told them that it was very strange and bizarre. so can you imagine how traumatized h was every time i "blew my top" indian style - hot-headed as i am and passionate. 10 yrs of that - he must be seriously traumatized!!

..

Then the second part of the above, that is great! THAT is appropriate! Keep doing that...

thanks kaffe diem, i'm so happy that i can do it - it has taken a year and a half for me to fight and overcome the fight or flight syndrome thing that i had to deal with with the concussions - i've worked really hard to get to "normal" and look once again like the young beautiful woman i used to be - when i look in the mirror, i smile at myself - because i remember how i looked before:)

But you need consistency... and you can't deny your motherly instincts to protect your children...

So when it is appropriate, you need to not be afraid to be that momma bear...

Make sense?

you're right - but i need to be gentle momma bear - and very loving, and sometimes i don't trust that i can put my anger and resentment about this sitch aside - i don't completely trust that my changes are real, because i can feel the crazy emotions rising up and then i find myself freaking out (remnants?)



Because it sounds like your H has convinced you that your anger is what pushed him away, so you are seeking to get rid of ALL your anger, hoping it will win him back, because if it shows up again, it will just be more proof to him that you haven't changed...

man, when i read this sentence, i gulped. you are exactly right - that is what i have been doing - absolutely refusing to be angry because he's so convinced me that my anger drove him away

He needs you to be in the double bind, because it is his power and control over you so that he can deny any problem with him and not have to do his own, internal work...

and you know what's funny? when i read this, i remembered what happened about 6 weeks ago - when i was trying to get him to agree to go talk to the child counselor he kept ranting about how great s was and i did lose it a bit and actually got quietly pissed off and told him a bunch of stuff. it didn't drive him away, in fact he agreed to go after that. i didn't scream and shout - i was just quietly fed up and a bit disgusted. so maybe this fear of my anger driving him away, is more built up in my own mind than actually exists?

i'm really interested about this double bind stuff and would love to hear more about it - i'm sure i'm not the only one who would benefit from it

When you feel yourself begin to vibrate in your boots... look for that double bind...

thanks so much kaffe - what you wrote to me really pushed me to inspect deeper.

what i find more and more is that whenever i point the finger at h and start being mad at him about the way he is doing something or the way he is, if i take it one step further and turn the focus to myself, i find that i am doing a similar thing on some level or did it before, and then that helps me to correct my behavior.

sometimes in the middle of this sitch when i get overwhelmed by it and what is really happening, i tend to forget that h had some real [censored] to deal with. he stood by me when most spouses leave , and granted he has made some painful choices, but nobody except he and i know how painful our situation was. i wished that we both had made wiser choices over the years, and especially 7 mos. ago, but as they say, it is what it is -

thanks for walking me through this -

zig

[zig]

thanks nemo - i like the driving idea - and yes we often have wonderful conversations in the car, s and i.

i have had to lie - because of ow . pretending to s that h is in one place when he is actually in another. and also to hs grandparents who don't know about ow. i've reconciled myself about that - it is more for s and grandparents so that they are not upset.

yes it will be hard to change the script now - i actually can't remember now whether i sort of said what you did (along the lines of it has been decided..) or if we said 'we have..)

s and i only had one conversation about it - the night before h moved into the house he rented - and we talked very openly about it. he asked how long before dada comes back and i said i don't know , what do you think - and he thought for a bit and said he thought minimum three months and maximum 1 year.

i thought at the time , oh good he and i will be able to communicate about this, but it was the only time it happened - after that he clammed up.

but i shall definitely put your suggestions into place after next week - and if you think of anymore, i'd love to hear them.

i want to be a better mom for son - need to stop being so self-involved and focus on him in a healthy positive way

[zig]

journaling -

well after being so worked up all day, this afternoon i sat and read some of the posts in the archives and CALMED DOWN.

got myself back to a place of love, empathy and forgiveness and felt more grounded. heck, i don't know about the rest of you, but apart from the roller coaster WAS is creating here, i've got my own personal one that puts me through the hoops anytime i want!!!

s went to a b'day party and h stopped by the house to get s's stuff before he went to pick him up and take s to his place.

i could tell right away he wanted to talk, and i kept myself in a really good place mentally.

parts of the conversation:

h: i'm feeling really nostalgic looking at the garden - you and i did a lot of great stuff here and had some good times. me ; it's good to remember those times, it wasn't all bad. h: no it definitely wasn't all bad


H; when we go to the counseling next week, how is it going to be - i mean we are going to need to resolve our issues

me: we are going for s only , not to resolve our issues. do you think we could only focus on s and how to help him through this?... are you saying that we need to resolve our issues or that you want to resolve our issues?

h: i guess i'm saying i want to resolve our issues

me; how would you like to do that? - just the two of us talking or talking with someone?

h: you know how i feel about that. can we just try on our own first

i said that over the last months i had noticed that he and i were able to communicate better - and that it was a really positive thing. he replied that yes"both of us have changed a lot, and we wshould be able to work on things on our own..

i said that i was happy to have a conversation with him anytime and to let me know. it ended on a pretty positive note, where he seemed relieved - especially about the counseling. he asked if s and he could come over tomorrow and all three of us could work in the yard together, and i said yes that would be wonderful.

right before he left, he fumbled in his pocket and got all funny and then mumbled something. then he said "i feel really really weird about this, i feel really weird giving you a present but here's something from my trip abroad" i was really touched - it's the kind of present he loves to give - something he finds in nature and he knows i love getting rocks from different countries.

i have to say it was most unexpected - i showed i was pleased and also told him that he didn't have to feel weird about giving me a gift.

so once again, keeping myself in a positive good place mentally, always brings a positive experience - i need to trust here - it's only when i don't trust myself that i get all freaked out and start getting nuts over every little detail

thanks everyone for helping me through my nuttiness yesterday and today - i could only get to the calmed down place after being prompted by your observations and questions

zig

[~ kd ~]

Not wanting to turn this into psych 101, as this is DB and therefore about solutions, not regression... but...

Yes, often what we don't like in others is a mirror of what we don't like in ourselves... so good you notice that...

also, be careful not to hold yourself to the double bind... you are convinced that your H had to nurture you and was deeply affected by your condition, so you need to be sensitive of his own hurts...

hold on, nelly...!!!!

You had a head injury (thank you for bringing that up; I haven't had a chance to read your whole thread)...

by the way, what's the current prognosis? 100% recovery or some lasting, permanent conditions? While you are making progress on your outbursts, were you always like that, pre-injury? Or is this possibly an artefact of the head injuries? I just read back and I guess you are saying that you were hot headed prior to the head injuries...

Just curious, some reference you made, including that of your H's parents... is he a brit by any chance? and are you portuguese or italian decent? It just appears that there are some cultural contexts at hand, here...

Regarding your H's parents not arguing??? Yeah, I call BS... and if it's true, then they have some serious issues... P/A much? I can imagine their home... on any given day... you could probably hear a pin drop...

Can you say "poor coping skills" in the children? Yeah, I can see that your H probably has not developed healthy conflict resolution skills.

What was your home like, growing up? Are you repeating patterns that you grew up with?

Your H won't just need to see your behavioural change consistently, over time... so will you... yes, probably remnants... just keep working on it and it will be more consistent and permanent...

And that's great for you... but that doesn't get your H off the hook... He knew he was marrying a hellcat... I can imagine what it must have been like, for him... and we are all entitled to change our minds... but that isn't an excuse for him to bail on you... naw... you can't let him off the hook, that easy...

That's the double bind... you've owned HIS issue... or his rationale... in effect, you are protecting him while he is controlling you...

And the reality of a double bind is actually that the control lies with the "victim"... It is the person IN the double bind that is the keeper of this position and the aggressor can be in a quite passive role or can even appear to be the victim if played right or in a specific context...

So here's where it "ends" as it were...

You are doing what you want to, to "fix" the thing in you (in this case, your hot temper) because you want to... because it's right for you... not because your H claimed that is what caused the end of the M...

So your proclamation is:

"Yes, I am human and am capable of being angry AND I am a good person."

In this case... in your case... Anger has been made the enemy, or the tool of the enemy. When reality is that anger is a very normal, human emotion and therefore if you are a bad person because of anger, that means that every human is a bad person because they are capable and do feel and express anger.

A double bind is a lose - lose condition. So the only way out is through it. Accept the loss and move forward. Doing so actually turns the context around and creates a win - win result because a double bind actually holds everyone involved, stuck to the condition.

It's a tough one because it takes a lot of courage to get through and out.

When researching, check both:

double bind

AND

counter double bind

[zig]

oh believe me kaffe - a lot of my anger these last couple of years was to do with the fact that early on, after researching what i was dealing with with the accident, found out that most spouses left their partners who had movement disorders - can't tell you how much it [censored] and how it affects oneself and everyone - i turned into a slightly paranoid, extremely fearful person who had to depend so much on the people around me that i completely lost my self esteem.

but i begged and begged him on a regular basis - please go talk to someone - this is too much for anyone to deal with and it is affecting you deeply. the standard answer i got was "you're the one who's f**ked here, not me, i'm fine"

he was great in helping and supporting me physically - but emotionally and mentally he made a real mess of things and it kept me in a much higher state of anxiety, after he moved out - i couldn't help but start to see how much better i was - with my nervous and anxiety levels, and kaffe, sad to say, but i AM really nervous about getting back together again just because of that. i will HAVE to see really clearly that the behaviors he used to use have changed in that respect.

in the first months when we talked a lot - before the withdrawal - he admitted with great pain that he had really done things wrong there. i really believe myself, and this is not trying to get him off the hook, that the wrong he did was NOT the way he handled things - the wrong he did was not to go get counseling to understand my condition - and how it was not about him and to him ,but that's how the brain functions under extreme stress

as for your question about how i was before - i had all my faults intact (grin) but post-concussion syndrome highly exaggerates any psychological or emotional behaviors so everything was much worse. add complete inability to emotionally connect to anything or anyone and you've got quite mixture there. i lost all my friends, completely could not connect to my work(i'm an artist) or to anyone in my family. i would sit and look at my s and my h in the first months and say to myself - wow i know i'm supposed to really love them, and i know i do, but i can't feel it like i used to - the same with my work

as for recovery - its a goddamn miracle - i still have the symptoms - but very mildly - my sleep disorder is under control thanks to hypnotherapy, it has taken me five years to work to this point - i can go for walks , am learning to ride a bike, and skated for the first time a couple of weeks ago (YAY) my friends are in love with me and so is my son - and everyone is just simply delighted - not to mention myself. i do yoga everyday now and can drive safely again - so all in all i would say 100% for sure - at least in my mind

the mental stuff is still a bit challenging - get overwhelmed and going into almost panic mode if i don't watch myself , i'm still working on that with my hypnotherapist who is amazing and has treated me for pain management and the sleep disorder for a year and a half for free. the meditation helps tremendously

i have been so amazingly lucky


funny you brought up the cultural difference issue - i'm from india and h is from the states - mid-west. i've lived in northern europe and the states before, so it was a bit of a struggle for him, me having been all over the place - or should i say, it was a struggle for me him not having been all over - i don't think he has a real good sense of how things are done very differently in other places

actually his parents really don't argue - ever - and as for having serious issues - yes - i think they are extremely dysfunctional in their relationship. i know you haven't read my whole thread - so repeating here - but h's sister did this with her married partner 2 years ago - they are divorced now - her partner couldn't forgive her...

h's parents are devastated - both their kids have done the same thing to their partners and they have lost the connection with both of them in the short space of 2 years. his father acts as if it's not going on, and his mom is spiraling into a depression. yes - several A's and as for coping skills - the only one they seem to have is pretend everything is okay and it will be. they lie to each other and hide stuff from each other all the time - so go figure what i'm dealing with here

my family is dysfunctional too in a different way - we didn't spend a lot of time together - i was sent off to boarding school at 7 until 19 with a couple of years at home. my father's mother who was a complete nut with serious anger issues lived with us and unfortunately i learned her way of dealing with things

these last months since i've "woken" up i have been steadily been addressing all these issues and working through them. i am amazed at how much i've learned and changed about myself - i don't seem to give myself a break - it's a constant non-stop finding out and peeling back the layers. i have a long way to go - and suddenly i'm realizing that i don't want h back right now till i work on this stuff - how crazy is that?

That's the double bind... you've owned HIS issue... or his rationale... in effect, you are protecting him while he is controlling you...

And the reality of a double bind is actually that the control lies with the "victim"... It is the person IN the double bind that is the keeper of this position and the aggressor can be in a quite passive role or can even appear to be the victim if played right or in a specific context...


wow this is freaky - are you describing that this is going on now during this sitch, or that's what was happening during the years we were together?

you are right that i protect him a lot - in fact when he tries to apologize i've noticed that i excuse it right away - when i started noticing that, i am trying to figure out what that is about and stop doing it. he has to own his own stuff.

i'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my mind around this - so i'm the victim, but i'm also in control - or is it that i am "assuming " the victim role in order to stay in control?

when this sitch started - i suddenly saw in one split moment - that i simply couldn't continue the way i had been - and i could suddenly see how my anger had been a wall between me and my world for all my life. it was triggered off my h's actions, but the incentive to change it was much more far-reaching and deeper. it has taken me 7 mod. to work through and get to the crux of the anger and now there is this new sense of peace that i haven't ever felt before.

So the only way out is through it. Accept the loss and move forward. Doing so actually turns the context around and creates a win - win result because a double bind actually holds everyone involved, stuck to the condition.


when you say accept the loss - do you mean the total loss of the relationship? or the loss of the double bind? could you give me an example of how to move forward through it?

kaffe diem - i think you've helped me more in these posts here than all the therapy i've had. it's amazing the insight that you have into this sitch?

i really appreciate all the time you've given me - and don't worry i'm actually grateful you turned this into a sort of psyche 101

i do need to turn towards solutions though and not just dwell on this - i know i have to go through it to resolve a lot - but i think i'm in a good place now - at least the best i've been my whole life

i tried to look for your thread but couldn't locate it. is there a link or title?

zig

[zig]

And the reality of a double bind is actually that the control lies with the "victim"... It is the person IN the double bind that is the keeper of this position and the aggressor can be in a quite passive role or can even appear to be the victim if played right or in a specific context...

i reread , and then i got it - i am the the keeper of the position because i take on and excuse his actions and issues. i was always so puzzled why he adopted this martyr/victim status when he was so vociferous and aggressive himself

during this sitch he has expressed a lot how wronged he felt and how he had to save himself by getting out.

so is the boucle bind present in all relationships that land up in these kinds of sitchs , or only some, depending on the dynamics of the r?

thanks
zig