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Sorry, OT, it didn't make me feel better. Actually, after the last week and a half, I feel like crap. I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. We simply do not see this situation from complementary perspectives. There is so much more to life than the one-track approach you have to my sitch. I'll take what you're saying into consideration, but I also need to move on to other things. Even if you're right on, this can't be the only aspect of my sitch worth focusing on.


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P.S. As for the WAS bashing, I really, really hate it. WAS/LBS is a false dichotomy, or a dichotomy built more on timing than anything else. People are at different places in their lives. We all try to do our best. Our best looks different when we are in different places. It is arrogant of LBSs to take the superior stance — WASs make choices LBSs don't like, no doubt they make some choices they wouldn't make if not driven by such pain. But, we are all human. We have ALL deeply harmed our partners, even if it was not through an A or choosing to end an M.

Pretty uniformly, LBSs eventually agree that their XMs were deeply flawed. Pretty uniformly, they mimic the adolescence of "WASs". Pretty uniformly, they swing to the "rewriting history, everything in the M was bad," end of things, and eventually settle on a more realistic view. Pretty uniformly, they act out, date too soon, become an "alien." Pretty uniformly, they get stuck for awhile. Pretty uniformly, they finally get to a better place that does not include the X-spouse. Not at all much different than a WAS.

So, the LBS/WAS as touted on these boards (not in MWs books) is hugely unproductive -- it leads to a deep lack of respect and blocks empathy. Not pretty.

So, I'd just try to ignore the LBS versus WAS stuff as much as possible if I were you.

DBing gets productive when people work ON THEMSELVES to become people who will lead more fulfilling, more authentic lives, and who will be better partners in ANY relationship. It is only when WE grow for our OWN sakes that DBing helps anyone or any of their relationships. And THAT is just as true for LBSs and WASs.


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"I realize I've only been at this for a little under two weeks, but I'm really questioning the purpose. I really don't get any value from giving H everything he wants with no return. Maybe I'm just too selfish that way and shouldn't be in a M."

EGAD!!!! This is NOT what you should be doing!!!!!!!!! YIPES!!!!!!! Of COURSE you've had a horrible week.

I still think "Conquer your Critical Inner Voice" and "Lifetraps" books would be huge for you. But maybe the most important thing is to work on boundaries.

Really useful post, BTW. Let's look at this: "About a week ago, I offered to move back into the master BR and to reengage sexually. H took me up on it. I was hesitant but my heart was open. He was quite pleased and happy about the change. Me, not so much, because I was woken up several times by his snoring because he wasn't wearing his cpap.

H had been doing some sexual "research" and had something he wanted to try (I'll skip the details.) I said I didn't want to do it because I wasn't comfortable with it at all. He did it anyway, and I felt utterly humiliated. I told him how I felt, asked him to stop, he continued. He loved it, I'll never forget it."

You with an open heart offered to share bed with H and be intimate. Great. Good for you. H was definitely a creep in response. Bad for him. H did not respect your wishes about sleep or sex. Really, really yuck. But, this is not about him, it is about YOU.

What can YOU learn about YOURSELF to have a better life? Here's a suggestion: your life would go better if you set and enforce boundaries that work for you. No explanation of them needed, they are YOUR boundaries and justified solely in virtue of that.

"H, I'd like to try sharing a bed again, but we need to do it in a way that works for both of us. For me, that requires being able to get a good nights sleep. I can't sleep well when you don't wear a CPAP, so that's a dealbreaker for me."

Then, when he doesn't wear the CPAP, state clearly and directly that that doesn't work for you and sleep elsewhere.

"H, I'm open to renewing our sexual intimacy. In the past, I've moved away from it because sometimes it did not feel good or right to me. If I start feeling that way again, I can own the responsibility to express that clearly and directly. My boundary is that we immediately stop whatever it is that isn't working for me, stop is a loving way without retribution or condemnation. I want to find intimacy that works for us both."

Then, stop sexual intimacy when he does NOT respect you after you were very direct and clear in your communication (and you were VERY clear with him.)

It is NEVER to late to set boundaries that work for you. He doesn't get a free pass because you had vague or weak boundaries in the past.

It is FINE to say now that the experiment did not work because he did not respect your wishes. It is FINE to reevaluate whether to continue with the experiment or not.

Remember, this is about what is good for YOU. Really. Really. Really.


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And, try to detach from the new pain a bit.

YOU did something wonderful this week when you gave H space to shine. Who CARES whether he changed from that.

YOU DID.

Don't let HIS further actions that demonstrated a lack of respect for you take away YOUR gains.


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BTW, sexually, I urge you to have a zero-tolerance policy for ANYTHING that causes bad feelings or causes you to check out mentally. It is damaging and you should never do it. It doesn't matter WHAT it is. This is especially true if you dissociate during sex when it is not working for you because of prior sexual abuse or rape. When someone dissociates because of sex that isn't working for them (for whatever reason), it FEELS like abuse or rape, even though it isn't (because the person is in such a case free to leave). The fact that one is free to stop the sex, but endures it and dissociates, does not change the phenomenal experience that is associated with sexual assault. OF COURSE, one flinches from a spouse sexually if there have EVER been such experiences within the context of the R. I have no idea if this applies to you or not, but it helped me a lot.


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Originally Posted By: Crazyville


H had been doing some sexual "research" and had something he wanted to try (I'll skip the details.) I said I didn't want to do it because I wasn't comfortable with it at all. He did it anyway, and I felt utterly humiliated. I told him how I felt, asked him to stop, he continued. He loved it, I'll never forget it.




Sorry, but the rest of what you posted is just a blur to me. This is tantamout to marital RAPE (and you'd have to know me, and how much of an "Oh please; we're all way-too-thin-skinned in this country!" guy to know how much this REALLY bothered me), and I'm pretty stunned that o.t.'s advice is as mild as it is in response to it.

This should be a dealbreaker to you, and a HARD boundary needs to be drawn, swift and hard. I'd certainly start with another 6 months of separate bedrooms.

I do have to admit, I haven't read your sitch, so please let me know if I'm reading this wrong, Crazy.


Starsky


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BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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Originally Posted By: oldtimer
BTW, sexually, I urge you to have a zero-tolerance policy for ANYTHING that causes bad feelings or causes you to check out mentally. It is damaging and you should never do it. It doesn't matter WHAT it is. This is especially true if you dissociate during sex when it is not working for you because of prior sexual abuse or rape. When someone dissociates because of sex that isn't working for them (for whatever reason), it FEELS like abuse or rape, even though it isn't (because the person is in such a case free to leave). The fact that one is free to stop the sex, but endures it and dissociates, does not change the phenomenal experience that is associated with sexual assault. OF COURSE, one flinches from a spouse sexually if there have EVER been such experiences within the context of the R. I have no idea if this applies to you or not, but it helped me a lot.


Sorry, but if she told him she didn't want to do it, and he did it anyway, and then she told him to stop, and he didn't . . . that IS rape. Period.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

At the end of every hard-earned day, people gotta find some reason to believe. (Bruce Springsteen)
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Starsky,

I don't disagree at all with your suggested boundary, but it is for to CV to find those that work for her. My point was precisely that CV needs to set and enforce boundaries that work for her and it is NOT too late to do so and they need no justification other than they work for her.

But, it isn't marital rape unless it was not CV's choice to put up with it. I can easily see how it would FEEL that way though (and perhaps CV's H did not stop when asked to stop in which case I agree it would in fact amount to sexual assault.)


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Yes, if she told him to stop, I agree. If she said that she wasn't into it and didn't think she'd like it, then he's a creepy inconsiderate lover. But if she did not consent to it, it is rape. No doubt. I didn't get the impression that was the case, but it could have been.

CV -- if that was the case, if you asked him to stop and he didn't, then, for me, that would be it. I'd be done, no looking back. Gone. Today. No do overs.

The thing to gain here is how to empower oneself to make and own choices that work for one sexually. For me, that would ALWAYS involve zero-tolerance of any sexual assault. End of story.

But, there IS in other cases space to own one's choices and change them to enforce better boundaries.


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Starsky -- we seem to be cross-posting...


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