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Continued from part 3

WoW! A lot of points being covered very quickly. I'm having a hard time fitting them all in my head at one time, so I'm going to do this in pieces.

There seems to be a recurring theme about forgiveness. I get that forgiveness is important. I think I don't know what I'm missing.

When I was asking about what to do with the "knowing," I was referring to the underlying message, not knowing about the action itself. The action is forgivable, especially when it doesn't happen again. Or, even if it happens again and again but isn't a relational issue, then it's easy to forgive as well. I also think it can be easy to forgive when you accept that you had something to do with causing the problem in the first place. (eg. If your S has an A and you recognize your part in the R that lead up to that.) And even if you had absolutely NOTHING to do with it, any action can be forgiven by someone that wants to.

I was asking about what to do with it afterwards, after you've forgiven, but when you KNOW something you didn't know before. A great hypothetical would be if you found out your H/W was gay. You can forgive them for whatever you think needs forgiveness (NOT looking to debate this,) but the fact now remains that your S is homosexual, with all that that entails. Forgiveness does NOT make everything better. All the forgiveness in the world will not make the R right.

You now KNOW something about that person that changes your R forever. You can't possibly go forward in your R pretending that you don't, and there's no way to actually UN-know it, nor do I believe it would be wise to do so.

THIS is what I feel like I'm struggling with, not the forgiveness itself.


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CV: "THIS is what I feel like I'm struggling with, not the forgiveness itself."

Then allow me to interject.

Go back to what Sandi said about her H not "deserving" forgiveness. Does anyone really "deserve" to be forgiven for anything? The answer is "no". No one deserves forgiveness.

Forgiveness in relationships is really for the "forgiver" not the "forgivee." (I'm not talking about divine or religious stuff)
As MWD writes, it's a gift we give ourselves, but she makes it sound a little too easy.

Let me give you an example - Me.
Here's a saying I coigned not long after the D.

"Do not confuse forgiveness with insanity. Forgiveness is letting bygones be bygones and not holding an offense against another person. Insanity is making yourself vulnerable to their crazyness all over again."

As you can see, I'm nowhere near "there" yet. I can let go of the pain. I can let go of my XW. But right now I couldn't take her back, even if she snapped out of her crisis. It would be sorta overwhelming, and I know I am not ready.

But that doesn't mean we never will be ready! These things take time. We've all been traumatized to some extent or another.

Continue to hope, because it isn't the "knowing" that is holding you back, it is fear.

None of us want to see ourselves vulnerable again to a betrayed trust. But that's okay. This is normal, a stage along the journey. I'll pray that we both get "there" soon, hows that?


Me 53 XW 50
M 18 Years +2
S14 D19
Bomb 10-24-10
Served 1-27-11
Mediate 4-21-11
Civil D Final 6-2-11
No church anullment
"A man is not finished when he is defeated, he is finished when he quits."
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No one technically deserves forgiveness. And it's not for them anyway. I totally get that.

It doesn't help me with how to go forward in a R when the new (forgiven) information completely redefines the R.


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Hi CV,

First of all, I renew my appreciation for your presence here. I know this introspection and criticism is hard to deal with, and I know you feel like the wronged party in your M. I like you and I enjoy your thread, so don't get discouraged!

I don't agree that no one deserves forgiveness. If someone shows remorse and makes a significant effort to make things right, then you could argue that they deserve to be forgiven. i.e. if you backed over the neighbor's hand-crafted fence by mistake, but then completely rebuilt it yourself to a high standard, then I think you're worthy of being forgiven.

I think the point is, though, that someone doesn't have to deserve forgiveness in order for you to give it. Forgiving takes a burden off of you. I think even if the person you are forgiving is dead, you will feel better after you've forgiven them, and in that case it obviously has nothing to do with them.

WRT this, I kind of missed this and I apologize because it is significant:

Originally Posted By: Crazyville
I don't think you understand the problem. H isn't leaving me for her, because that's not a simple choice. He's M'd, she's M'd, lives in a different state, etc. My problem is wrapping my head around knowing that given the option to turn back time, he would choose to be with her, and that he carries that in his head with him, TODAY. I can't be good enough to offset fantasy. No one can. So your question really becomes, am I prepared to do what it takes to be the SECOND BEST option for H? I can answer that I am at least capable, if not prepared at this very moment (just being honest, please don't chew me up.) What about MY part? Beyond what I "do," I don't know what to "be." This doesn't fit into my definition of what M is supposed to look like. So, fine, I redefine it. To what? What is the GOAL?


That's pretty big right? I find it odd that it didn't come up until page 8 or so of part 3 of your thread.

Just so I understand:

1) How long ago did you learn about this?

2) How much does it bother you? Is this an elephant in the room, or just one more thing on the pile? If eating food off your plate is an "8" on the making CV feel bad scale, where does this fantasy of H's rank?

I don't want to minimize this at all -- having H tell you that he would prefer someone else is very hurtful, it really hurts your self-esteem and feelings of worth. There is a big spectrum here however:

BAD END: On the bad end of the spectrum OW is the first thing that H thinks about when he wakes up in the morning. He looks forward to his next interaction with OW all day and can't keep himself away. Talking to OW really makes him feel good, he feels he can tell her things he can't tell anyone else. He texts, e-mails and IM's with her multiple times per day. They tell each other they love each other and discuss wanting to go on vacation together, etc. etc. Over the course of the month, he might log 40-50 hours on the phone with her in secret, and hundreds of messages. You're not really on his radar at all, except as a source of guilt, and a barrier to his happiness with OW.

LESS BAD END: On the other end of the spectrum, H is feeling badly about himself and your M. He doesn't feel he's good enough for you and can't make you happy. He happens to reconnect with a former GF on FB and they have a nice conversation. It rekindles in him happier feelings about himself. Because she's nice to him he feels worthy. It really doesn't have much to do with OW at all other than the fact that the attention and kindness make him feel better about himself. At some point, he mentions it to you, lets you find out, etc. in the hope that it will make you jealous and improve things between you by increasing your effort, or it will hurt you which will make him feel better because he'll see that you still want him / love him. On this end of the scale, it's not about OW at all, it's about the two of you exclusively.

Where do you think H is on this spectrum? I would *guess* he's more toward the good end than the bad one, but what do you think?

You can't compete with fantasy, no one can. What H may be "selling" to OW is not something he would be able to deliver longer term, nor would he necessarily want to. He's pursuing getting his needs met, so he's dangling emotional bait. I'm not talking about sexual needs, just the need to feel wanted, needed and worthy. If he doesn't feel that way with you, then he's a drowning man who is going to grab onto any lifeboat that happens to pass by.

Tell me more about where you think he is on the spectrum and how badly it really bothers you or not.

I really don't think you're second choice, nor should you feel that way. You are the incumbent, you have "pole position". This may just be another tool in H's distancing arsenal.

Accuray


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
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Um, CV, if you're saying that you've forgiven H and that forgiveness has nothing to do with your problems, I call major BS. The hate, anger, disdain radiate. You've not forgiven him. (This, BTW, is not a judgment, it is a descriptive statement.)

But, if you're saying that you are afraid to forgive because you don't know what to do next, I believe that. This is why I wrote: "Forgiveness involves moving forward, it does not involve moving forward blindly. Forgiveness is not weak, but comes from a place of personal strength and compassion.

But you seem to feel that holding onto bitterness, anger, and disdain is the only thing to do without saying "it's ok to treat me like crap.""

So, what do you do with the knowledge if you forgive? You base your current and future choices with that knowledge. What do you do if you know H is gay? Well, evaluate your choices:

(1) Stay with H and change nothing.
(2) Stay with H and change the context of the R to an open M or something that better fulfills both of your needs.
(3) D but keep H in your life as a dear family friend.
(4) D and exclude H from your life moving forward.

Any of the above choices could be made from a place motivated by what works best for you from what you want out of your life. Any of those choices could be made even if you fully forgive H. Any of those choices can be made without anger and hate, without be driven by fear.

So, suppose you were to forgive H for making you feel 2nd best.

BTW, the ranking here is NOT what is important. Even if there were no EA, H would be unhappy in the M TOO. Like I said, an M that is so bad for the WAS is just as bad for the LBS, they just aren't to the point of acceptance/acknowledging that. Moreover, the WAS/LBS dynamic makes the LBS blind to their own pain from earlier in the M for quite some time. That is, the LBS loses touch with how unhappy they were in the M while the WAS magnifies how unhappy they were in the M. This is standard, utterly predictable. They swing to the extremes in their view of the M and slowly both generally get a more realistic perspective. Though, this may involve a swing to the pendulum back and forth many times.

So, anyway, the real question in many ways is will you forgive H for not being content with you as a W? Well, will he forgive you with not being content with him as an H? You are both in very similar situations, you are living in an M that you may or may not want to preserve with a spouse with whom you are discontent who you know is not happy with you. Then, if the answer is yes, you will forgive H, then we are back to...

What do you do after you forgive H for making you feel 2nd best, but you continue to believe that (1) he did feel you were second best and (2) he still does feel you are second best. Well, you assess your choices.

(1) Stay with H and change nothing.
(2) Stay with H and change the context of the R and see if it can become a healthy, vibrant, loving, passionate M that works for both of you.
(3) D but keep H in your life as a dear family friend.
(4) D and exclude H from your life moving forward.

Me, I'd scratch (1) off the list immediately. I'd also scratch (3) off the list -- based on my experience and observation of others, this "we'll always be the best friends" stage is simply a stage of unproductive denial. We want our spouses as romantic partners, not as friends. But whatever. That would leave me with (2) and (4).

I would choose (2), but not in an unconditional never look back way. Rather, I'd choose (2) freely and contingently. I would OWN my choice to see if the M can be what I WANT in the future and I would OWN the costs and risks as one's I chose to accept because of the possible benefits to MYSELF. I would set a time to check-in with MYSELF to see if I wanted to continue to try, maybe 6 months, and then during that 6 months I would work on myself to become the partner I would want to be in ANY relationship. A partner who is good to herself and partner, who is understanding, tolerant, strong, independent, direct, open, communicative, supportive, respectful, forgiving, loving, passionate, etc... Part of this might even include sharing with H: "H, I have felt 2nd best for some time. I still feel that way. It hurts beyond all imagining. I can't tell how much is because of myself, and how much is based on your true feelings about me. I am working my best on forgiving you for the EA, it is a process and I get scared. I understand that we both contributed to problems in our R that made EA an appealing option for you. I am so sorry for both of us that we reached that point. But, moving forward, feeling 2nd best is not an option for me. I'm looking at how much that is within me. But I also need you to know that for me to move forward I have to be your first choice now. If later you decide this M doesn't work and you want to move on, that's really OK. But, while we're still exploring making this M work together, it just has to be us. Right now, neither of us knows what we'll want 6 months from now. Right now, I know I want to try, but only with a partner whose first choice is to try with me." And yes, I know, you couldn't say that at all, or all at once. Or it doesn't reflect exactly how you feel, blah blah blah. Resist your excuses. Adjust the message. Do it in bits and pieces. Use email. Whatever.

Then, at the end of the 6 months, I would check-in with myself: Based on where I am at that point, do I choose (2) again or move to (4) or something else I hadn't yet considered.

And, back again to you and your critical parents. You didn't respond directly to my last post. You do get that this whole second best thing is ALL wrapped up with your parents CONSTANTLY sending you that message growing up, which they did according to your very own words.

Until you can feel better than second best (without the false security of being perfect which is never safely in one's grasp), NO ONE will make you feel better than second best in your life. H really doesn't have much of a chance of succeeding then. But, once you conquer your critical inner voice here (did you read that book?), then H would have a chance to treat you in a way in which you feel like his top choice. If he doesn't, well, you probably wouldn't stay because you conquered your critical inner voice that kept you stuck in that sort of R.


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BTW, the critical inner voice and lifetrap books are BOTH about solutions in the present to move forward -- not Freudian psychoanalysis, for instance. But, to move forward, you must first identify your big roadblocks.


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Last thing... Just one sentence in particular from Sandi to not lose track of... "The place that may be different for you and me is that I had to reach a place where I felt humility. "

She puts this more tactfully than I usually do. I generally tell people to "drop the arrogance." But the same message is important to anyone struggling in their lives, in any way for that matter.

(1) We are far less perfect than we think, even if we don't think we are perfect. We are all flawed human beings that experience deep pain.

(2) We know far less about others than we think we know.

(3) Much of what we actively dislike in others is really all about ourselves and our own pain.

(4) Most things that people do that hurt us really aren't about us, but about their own pain.

This amounts to finding oneself in a position in which we are not in a position to judge others so much, we don't assume we know their motivations or what they are capable of. We question ourselves when we find ourselves being hostile and critical toward others -- what is it in ourselves that provokes that reaction? And, we try not to take things personally when others trespass against us, because they almost never mean to do so. And, NONE of this means that we must choose to accept treatment that we find unacceptable.


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I want to offer a little help on how to "be" in this process, on your road to the future.

The feeling of being overwhelmed by the feedback you are getting here, what is happening is you (this is natural for anyone, btw) hitting this flow of thoughts and backing up from it. Stepping back to process it before taking another step.

That is fine. That is OK.

I have seen so many major breakthroughs happen in the shortest period of time when people step into this and fully immerse themselves in it and operate in this chaos. It is scary, but we are not only capable of doing it, we are capable of coming out the other side much stronger and better for it.

Making choices in the midst of this chaos is a powerful skill that anyone can benefit from.

Do your best not to dwell on the little dissections of your comments and thoughts. It's just feedback. Think of it as your inner voice giving you your options, on the fly, as you make choices and step forward.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville
The action is forgivable, especially when it doesn't happen again.


This absolutely is the difficult part of really owning forgiveness. Not qualifying forgiveness.

Qualifying forgiveness by saying that it is easier to forgive when (we know) it doesn't happen again is where many people get stuck. It is that point when we choose a path of score keeping vs. choosing to accept that it WILL happen again and knowing that we will forgive, again (for the exact same action).

Do you see the difference between how people can end up making forgiveness about expectations of others vs. making forgiveness unconditional and selfless?

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Kaffee,

I agree that forgiveness can't be contingent on whether future conditions are satisfied. I'm not sure if we forgive x at one time we commit ourselves to always forgiving x, but maybe.

But what is important is to distinguish forgiveness from forgetting data upon which to base one's own autonomous choices.

We recognize and accept people's flaws. We forgive them for them. But we also must make our choices based upon a recognition of those flaws.

My h is frequently egregiously late, he has been his whole life. I forgive him repeatedly. But sometimes I stop to consider how this will affect my future choices? Will I not rely on him to be on time in x circumstance? Will I depart for event x without waiting for him? I don't ignore the fact that he has been late frequently in my choices simply because I forgive him. That would be unkind to myself, unwise, and give rise to a lot of resentment. Rather I have to own my choices as ones I freely choose while knowing full well that there is a good chance h will run late. My choice.


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Accuray, thanks for the supportive words. I do very much appreciate this place as an option for feedback that I can't get from reading books. I'm trying to sort out what I can use and what I can't.

I did have to laugh at your comment that I didn't bring up H's EA until p8 of part 3, when everyone else is claiming that I bring up H's actions too much. smile

I found out about the EA probably 5 or 6 years ago. You're right in that H is more toward the "less bad end," with a few exceptions leaning more toward the "more bad end." I'm not sure how those would factor in and it probably isn't relevant. As far as how I rate it, eating food off my plate is a 2, this fantasy he has is an 11.

BTW, when I relate instances such as this, it might come off as angry, but what I'm feeling is just sadness. I feel incredible sadness at the loss of what I once thought I had. I can sit quietly in my corner and mourn, without anger and bitterness. But poking at it will result in anger and all sorts of other unpleasantness.

Part of my difficulty with his EA is my own inability to relate. I dated guys, some for a significant length of time, some I would even say I was in love with. None of them are someone I wish I had married. I heard a cute line once that said, "They call it a break-up for a reason, because it's BROKEN!"

I also see the problems this fantasy creates in a M. My BFF is still pining for her HS sweetheart. Every time she has an issue with her H, she says she wishes she would have followed her ex out to California, and adds in a few descriptive sentences about what her imagined life would look like right now. I try to talk her down but it doesn't change her feelings about him. I see what that comparison does to their M. Her H will never be good enough, because he's human and her ex is fantasy. At the same time, she isn't rubbing her H's nose in it, she doesn't say anything about it. She just harbors it.

Here's my issue. I have an image of what M is supposed to look like. I can't squeeze this reality into my image. I don't know how to move forward with this. I accept that it's not going to change; it's already been almost 40 years. He isn't still talking to her (that I know of, anyway) so there's nothing to address there.

There's actually an option 5. Stay in the M and make the best of it, realizing it will likely never become a healthy, vibrant, loving, passionate M as I envisioned, but something that is at least acceptable and primarily conflict-free. I'm having a difficult time defining that, at least with any enthusiasm. I think this is probably where you and I can relate, Accuray. I'm sure your R is not as you envisioned. I know you've struggled for some time with whether or not you can do this long term. I'm sure it saddens you greatly, even if you choose to accept it. Expecting it to be different would be foolish and only result in heartache for you.

When you take the chocolate chips out of chocolate chip cookies, they aren't chocolate chip cookies anymore. So what are they? They are certainly edible, but will you still enjoy eating them?


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