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Right, I agree Oldtimer. I was just reflecting that I have "reacted strongly" when people were off base. If you wrote me five long posts about the fact that my W didn't like sex because I was gay and am not admitting it, eventually it WILL get to me because you're not giving up and are effectively telling everyone why you think I'm gay over and over again. Just because I react strongly to that doesn't mean I'm gay.

It's a silly argument anyway because I agree with you, and I think your feedback to CV has been valuable. I would expect that some of it is right on target, and some maybe less so, but all valuable.

Accuray


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
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Originally Posted By: Crazyville
Am I arrogant or thinking I'm not good enough? I'm hearing both. Those seem contradictory.


Actually, they may not be. I am often both and believe that they are two sides of the same coin. When I am feeling less than and not good enough, I often over-react or act out aggressively to overcompensate for the fact that I don't feel good about myself. When I am at peace with myself, I don't need to be either. This seems like a common enough human theme and a good topic for IC --at least it was for me.

Mimi


M:37; H:37; M:10 years;T:13 years;no kids.
Bomb ("I love you, but don't feel things for you I should":1/08/12
Separated (H living with various friends:1/18/12
Separated (H rented his own apartment:3/4/12
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Ah, but first you'd simply say: nope not gay, that's for sure.

CV has not said: nope don't have a problem with not feeling good enough, nope I'm not a perfectionist. Rather, she confirms and then reverses, or simply deflects.

As a master of deflection via argument myself, it is easy to see. Indeed, I used the same strategy in my previous M in which I was hypercritical of XH to avoid looking at myself because it hurt too much. If one has reasonably good argumentative skills, it is easy to stomp a discussion out with argumentative slight of hand.


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Originally Posted By: oldtimer
Kaffee,

I agree that forgiveness can't be contingent on whether future conditions are satisfied. I'm not sure if we forgive x at one time we commit ourselves to always forgiving x, but maybe.

But what is important is to distinguish forgiveness from forgetting data upon which to base one's own autonomous choices.


Absolutely, OT. One should never forget, that still does not mean we do not forgive.

For example, even in your examples above with choices 1 through 4, even if we choose #4 to D and not be "friends" with our Xs, I believe it is still important to both remember AND forgive. Just from a perspective of it's value to us.

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Yes, I agree.


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CV, I came to this site looking for answers and got questions instead. Some of them were pretty tough and painful. I was trying to help you the way I've been helped here.

Think of all of us DBers as a bunch of people scrambling up a very difficult mountain and we're reaching hands across the space to help and get help from one another. Some like OT and MLC are way ahead of us and are reaching down to pull others along. Some who've just arrived are mainly reaching up so they can get a foothold. Others are reaching left and right to hold the hands that are at the same point in their journey.

I haven't saved my marriage or myself, and I'm in no position to know exactly how to help you. I reach out with what I've learned in my situation and it's as much to reinforce what I've learned as it is to share it. OT saw that.

Being here takes courage and humility. There aren't any easy answers. You're in a ton of pain, I know that and hurt for you.


Adinva 51, S20, S18
M24 total
6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out
9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50
5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend
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((CV)) don't give up on us. I know how this feels. It's overwhelming for me to grasp all this information and I'm speaking strictly from my personal stitch.

You are correct in saying that forgiveness doesn't make the R right. The act of forgiving didn't fix it. For me, I had to do it before I could proceed in a MR with my H. It was a cleansing for me. And, since I had so many years of bad feelings collected in my mind & heart, there would have been no use in attempting R without my "cleansing". I had tried that too many times before, or thought I had. Truth was, I had not gone deep enough to get that bottom layer of grime from the very first year of m. There was no way I could operate or heal effectively without washing it out.

So, what steps did I take, or what did I do afterward? Well, at first, I did several things that's on that list of 180's that gets passed to newcomers a lot... smile Yes, I wrote it from the VP of the WAS, but there were still a lot of those 180's I applied myself. I hope that doesn't confuse anyone. I was a healing WAW. I was like CV and didn't know exactly what came next! Where were the steps?

Just b/c I was able to finally forgive my H, and I got all that bitterness out, I did not immediately have a waterfall of loving feelings come blasting into my heart. It would have been nice, but it didn't happen for me. I had to still have some space (used it mostly on the DB board), and I had to have time to get stronger. That healing process is not for the LBS only. I think he was not ready for me to fall all over him. He needed some time to deal with his side of the pain and heal also. Some couples may feel they have to be glued to each others hip to heal, but my H and I aren't that way. It came in stages or steps, as we were able to move forward, and as we moved forward the " Y " in the road eventually became one lane again.

I started to make a conscious effort to show respect to him. In the past, I felt he didn't deserve my respect b/c he didn't live up to my expectations. It was a big problem. I learned from people here and I began to open my eyes and heart and see all the areas I could respect him. It was a starting point.

I took a conscious effort to speak with a nice tone of voice (a respectful way) when speaking to him. I made an effort to not make facial expressions that spoke a different language from my words. (That always bothered him a lot.)

I made a conscious effort to see the good in him and the things he does. I made an effort to remember why I fell in love with him (thanks to this board).

Little steps at a time went on for a long time and ever so slowly my feelings for him began to change.

Whoa......I just looked at the clock and I'm late for work. Got to run!


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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How do you know when you've forgiven someone?

How do you know that you haven't?


Me:49 WAW H:59
T:19.5 M:19
S:13
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I would say that you know when it no longer bothers you. But that starts with making the conscious decision to not let whatever needs forgiveness bother you any longer. It might still bother you for a while, but like everything else we have to work on in these situations, it takes time.

If you've made the decision to try and forgive, in a way, you already have. It might help to vocalize that you're forgiving them. If you're worried about something happening again, vocalize that as well.


Me: 31
W: 28
M: almost 6
T: 10.5
S2
Bomb#1: 05/11
Bomb#2: 11/11
S'd: 11/28/11
Moved back in: 12/28/11
MC: 06/28/12

...what is it about the 28th day of the month?
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You know you've forgiven someone when you're no longer expending any energy (anger, resentment, hurt, sadness, etc etc) on the offense. You feel freed, positive, and filled with far more energy to make positive changes.

You know you haven't forgiven them if the offense is still eating away at you, sapping your energy, creating negative thoughts, and leaving you feeling hopeless about the possibility of change.

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