Look, you've really really got to read those two books. Every post you make, every frequent callback to perceived slights of other posters, each insistence on showing how we are flawed in our reasoning -- these things all confirm to me that you have a big monster roadblock between you and a better life no matter what direction it takes. Working on that part of yourself is independent of H.
As for the cookies, assuming you KNOW how they will turn out is part of the arrogance. Have an open mind, don't try to decide now if how you believe things might be in a year will be ok then. First you don't know how things will be. Second, you don't know how you would feel about them even if they turn out as imagined.
Quit planning your life on unknown future contingencies so much. Make a plan for 6 months. Then reassess.
I hear you. That nagging doubt about being #2 is really you thinking you're not good enough though. If you were convinced you were good enough then you wouldn't be threatened by H's fantasy, you'd either know you were better than the fantasy woman, or you'd know it was H's issue and not yours and it wouldn't bother you at all.
I also hear you about the sadness.
Yes, I struggled for years to get more affection from W. Eventually I concluded that she just didn't love me. I was angry at her for marrying me in the first place. I thought she married me because I was "good enough" versus someone she was passionate about, and I felt that had prevented me from marrying someone with whom I could have been truly happy. I didn't voice any of this, but it fueled both quiet resentment as well as convinced me that I wasn't good enough. Nothing I did could get an affectionate response from W, so I must not be good enough.
Maybe as a defense mechanism I then convinced myself that W was incapable of being loving with anyone. Maybe it wasn't me, maybe she was just depressed and therefore incapable of happiness. That formed a kind of protective shell for me for several years.
When she then had the EA and I saw all the emotion, enthusiasm and love she lavished on OM, how she sought to meet up with him, go for walks, planned a picnic at the beach, etc., it was very hard. It took away my conclusion that my W was "just an unloving person" and doubled-down on the "you're not good enough". I then got the "oh, she's capable of it alright, you just don't do that for her"
MC told me that what W was bringing to the table in that EA is not who she is, that I have the real W. That she would not be capable of sustaining that, nor would she be happy if she tried. He said that an affair is all about two people telling each other how wonderful they are -- and that is of course unsustainable. Sooner or later that glass is going to break. W says she realized that while she was in it -- that what she was living was not real, but it felt really good. She says she knew it wasn't going anywhere, and she had no illusions about a long term relationship with OM. That said, she was no less crushed and angry when he chose to end it.
One of my best learnings through this is that I am good enough, and it's my job to convince myself of that. It's not W's job to tell me that I'm worthy or show me that I'm worthy, it's my job to BE worthy, and at that point I don't care if W appreciates that or not.
I discovered the EA through snooping, and for a long time thereafter I was addicted to snooping. I eventually decided that snooping is a defensive life, and I didn't want to live it. My current attitude is that if W wants to pursue another EA (or PA), then go for it. It's a reflection on her, not me. I *know* I'm a good husband and a good father. My W's issues with me are more a reflection of her issues than places I fall short.
The challenge, however, is that it's always been important for me to be acknowledged, and to feel wanted and needed. W doesn't naturally do that. Some of the things that W says or does continues to prey upon this weakness of mine, not necessarily through any fault of her own. What I have learned, and am still learning, is that my challenge in this relationship is not to let that bother me, and to find comfort in my own successes.
I'm a work in progress for sure but I "get it" now. I'm not worried about competing with the fantasy, and if W wants to pursue one, have at it, I'm gone -- and I have no doubts that I can find someone who appreciates what I bring to the table.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
It doesn't help me with how to go forward in a R when the new (forgiven) information completely redefines the R.
It sounds like you think you're between a rock and a hard place? Give up or settle for less than you want and need?
Some of the other posters have listed scenarios, and I wouldn't blame you for feeling like the best choice is "none of the above." Nobody on this board wants to return to a troubled R. I think we all would prefer something new, either with or without our S, but not the old BS.
But I am not addressing either fantasy or reality. I believe this discussion is about your feelings. You cannot easily brush the "knowledge" aside and carry on, and neither can I. I have EA/PA issues to deal with myself.
There has to be healing, and you know, you can't hurry up healing. The thing is the individuals have to heal before the R can, otherwise you risk getting back the old troubled R. That's why we change and move forward and get on the mend. We have to have that attitude.
I would never expect you to "settle" for a M or R you do not desire out of fear of some unknown future. Reminds me of something 25 said on another thread. Her H didn't begin to wake up, until she was living happily "with or without" him.
Forgiveness is a step toward self healing, but it is not quick and easy. It comes from a place of inner peace and inner joy. That's where you have to go.
You have bounderies. You demand exclusivity. Nothing wrong with that. But if you don't get that, can you imagine living happily "with or without" him? Peace and joy. Attitude.
Hugs Pic
Me 53 XW 50 M 18 Years +2 S14 D19 Bomb 10-24-10 Served 1-27-11 Mediate 4-21-11 Civil D Final 6-2-11 No church anullment "A man is not finished when he is defeated, he is finished when he quits."
Why don't you tell us the answer to your question.
Your phrasing just there sounded aggressive, and was a tactic my H often used to shut down a conversation he wanted to avoid. Find a nitpicky thing to deflect the point and go on the offensive.
Why not take a look through your own words and see if any of them looked arrogant to you? And see if there were also any that suggested you have trouble with thinking you're not good enough. One can be a mask for the other. But we don't know you that well. Why not digest what was said for a while to absorb what value you can find in it before arguing with it?
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Well on that note, I think I'm going to bow out for awhile. Something is coming across in my posts that is being interpreted negatively that isn't there. After I typed that last post, I went to the foyer, sat on the floor in the sun and sobbed because I don't understand. Hardly passive-aggressive.
So I thank you all for your investment in me. I have been listening, so if anyone wants to say anything to me, I will read it. But I probably won't respond, not until I can figure out a way to do so where it isn't misinterpreted.
Besides, I've got enough books to read to keep me busy for a month.
Cv, I think if you read what I wrote about arrogance, it is easy to see that the kind of arrogance of which i spoke and feeling 2nd best are orthogonal.
Btw, your response is another case of a deflective facile but poorly aimed counterargument. It is as Advina suggests, avoidance via nitpicking, even if the nitpicking is off-target.
Look, I'm pretty much done here. I've offered you as much as I can. My hope is that it will trickle in, even as I irk you now. I think you are a person in deep pain. It is perfectly normal to have such strong defenses against that which causes you pain. I get it. It doesn't make you a bad person. But it will keep you stuck. You can take my advice and work through those two books, or not. If you do, then either I'm right and your life will blossom with new joys, possibilities, hope, freedom from your own growth, or it won't. There is precisely one way to find out.
Advina, asking CV why she can't stop deflecting is like asking an LBS why they can't stop pursuing the WAS. It is currently the beat defense against further pain. The key in both cases is to find a different path, which is itself painfully hard and scary.
And, CV and Advina, notice that Advina's heightened concern in this case is about her-- it struck a nerve because if her own pain in her marriage. Really, it is a huge thing when we can look at things that get our dander up to learn about our own pain.
Apologies for the "I shall explain the world" tone above, but I have weak tact on the best days, and I'm in a rush on a phone.
Trust that I'm coming from a place of compassion and concern. You're a good person, and I want to see you find more joy that is more easily within your grasp than you think.
So, here's another choice for the woman who learns her husband is gay:
(6) Choose to shelve questions about the M for 6 months, then take the space to work on self to get to a place in which fear and pain aren't driving one's choices, but freedom and genuine love and compassion for oneself are. Then, in 6 months reassess.
Well on that note, I think I'm going to bow out for awhile. Something is coming across in my posts that is being interpreted negatively that isn't there. After I typed that last post, I went to the foyer, sat on the floor in the sun and sobbed because I don't understand. Hardly passive-aggressive.
I've been there. Sometimes you get some harsh feedback that just isn't on the money, and nothing you do can convince people they are off base.
Other times you're not ready to hear what people are telling you because you haven't gotten that far yet in your own journey.
Sometimes those two are happening at the same time.
When we react strongly it's either because someone has hit a nerve we don't want to face, OR they are entirely off base and it's not worth continuing down that path.
Quite frankly you pushed me quite a bit on my own sitch, at times I was angry, but I appreciated that you made me think.
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
Am I arrogant or thinking I'm not good enough? I'm hearing both. Those seem contradictory.
Not at all. Arrogance is borne of insecurity, so the two would go hand-in-hand. Arrogance is overcompensating for feeling unworthy.
FWIW, I don't think you're arrogant, I think you are hurting, and you have strong convictions and I don't view those two as being the same as arrogant. You came to this board quite sure that you were the victim and H the oppressor, and instead of getting support for that perspective and a pat on the back, you've been hearing that it's more about you than you would like to admit.
Pretend everyone that's posting to you is right. If you're not ready to deal with that, then they're not helping you. I hear that your main request is "how do I make this marriage less painful" and the answer you seem to be receiving is that you need to change yourself, and not in a trivial way, which sux because you don't think you've done anything wrong!
I can completely see that is heaping condemnation on top of a base of deep pain. That's why I tried to get you talking about what makes you happy. That's another path out of here BTW.
From my perspective, one path is confronting your weaknesses and issues head-on and muscling through them.
Another path is deciding to accept yourself for who you are, and to have no regrets about the person you've become.
The final path is focusing on what makes you happy and pursuing that. If you're able to achieve that happiness, then the weaknesses and issues may take care of themselves and the acceptance will come.
Any path will have limitations and obstacles that need to be overcome, and excuses to be evaluated and discarded. You're not happy where you are now, you know that. Which way do *you* want to move forward?
My biggest fear for you is that you leave H, find another man who initially seems wonderful, and over time you start to unconsciously seek ways he has slighted you and start to focus on those until you're right back here.
One of the books I read, I think "After the Affair" talked about the fact that everyone is mistreated in some way as a child. No parents are perfect. That mistreatment becomes your "place of comfort" because you have learned how to cope with it over the course of years. Therefore, when you get married, you are attracted to people who put you in your place of comfort. If you were never good enough to your parents, then you aren't going to value someone who puts you on a pedestal. That relationship won't be challenging or fulfilling for you, and you'll wonder what's wrong with the other person to make you feel that way. You'll be attracted to the person who makes you feel unworthy, and therefore your patterns will continue to repeat.
Another thing I read is that you train people how to treat you. Put another way, if people treat you a certain way it's because you accept it and have reinforced that it's ok. If you don't respond well to praise, but take action in response to criticism, then you train people to criticize you when they want something from you.
Really, through everything I've read, it all comes back to you. Your situation is one you've created. If you see that, then you're on the path to changing it.
It will break my heart if you stay where you are. Please keep reading, keep thinking and evaluating, and check back in when you feel better.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
"When we react strongly it's either because someone has hit a nerve we don't want to face, OR they are entirely off base and it's not worth continuing down that path."
Maybe, but very likely not. Let me try these:
"Accuray, your wife doesn't enjoy sex because you are gay."
"Accuray, your wife doesn't enjoy sex because you don't eat vegetables."
"Accuray, your wife doesn't enjoy sex because you beat her."
Now, I'm pretty sure that you'd deny all these, and strongly deny the last. But none would really bother you--they would be comments from some stranger hopefully intended to help but off the mark. It would be a matter of fact nope that's not it. When things GET to us, it is time to pay attention.
If someone kept posting about your hatred of veggies, it might annoy you, but it wouldn't GET to you.
