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#2226601 - 03/01/12 10:53 PM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: rickb89]
rickb89 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 1119
Barely....hmmmm....GAL agenda for the weekend....a lot of driving Miss Daisy duty for my S13, definitely go to a movie with the boys and friends, yoga, reading, and cant forget Walking Dead Sunday night.

What about you? What am I missing?

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#2226612 - 03/01/12 11:21 PM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: 2thepoint]
25yearsmlc Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 9928
Loc: west coast
Originally Posted By: 2thepoint
"Hope this makes sense to you as it did for the vets here, and the Pool Boys (oh--the men here are all pool boys that serve us, and we are all very appreciative and give them positive words of affirmation all the time)"

Thats pretty damn funny, 25! You do know that lately the "pool boys" around here have been wearing some pretty skimpy bathing suits. laugh


indeed I do know. Hence the pool party...and by the way, I'm thirsty.

cool
_________________________
m:51 H:55
M: 30 yrs
S25,D23,D15
H goes ALASKAN, solo,2005
I file Sep 2/06
Piecing 7/07
Retrovaille Weekend 8/08
M Restored 8/08

Be Happy OR be "Right"

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#2226618 - 03/01/12 11:39 PM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: 25yearsmlc]
2thepoint Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1692
LOL!! Ah yes Madame, what may I bring you to quench your thirst?

Wait, are you staring at me? Please stop I get embarrassed easily. blush
_________________________
Me48 W50 S15 S11
M20 T23
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife

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#2227297 - 03/04/12 12:07 AM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: 2thepoint]
rickb89 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 1119
A husband walks into a bar with a WAW on his shoulder and the bartender says..........

Okay so I'm walking thru the kitchen and my W stops me and says that because I have my own life she should learn to handle her own finances. So I calmly work towards figuring out what she means. I tell her that I emailed her with a suggested way of doing this when she said last time that it was important to her, and that she never responded, so is that what you want to do or do you have something else you're thinking? She says we are leading separate lives so we should separate the finances. Note that this has been a big thing for her forever but she has never actually stepped up to do something about it. So I say do you want to do this now? She doesn't. She says this way of living suxx and it's killing her. I ask her what she wants or needs to do. She says (and I knew she would see my GAL and detachment this way) that since we lead totally separate lives she hates it here. So I say that she is giving me contradictory messages. She pushes me away completely and then is unhappy that I'm not with her like before. She says she is not actually doing anything. She's just completely unable to get a hold on what to do in anything and absolutely has nothing in the tank at all. That opens the door for a 3 hr Gilligan tour of our entire history and everything going on now.

Without including all the dialogue here it basically comes down to that this past year was inevitable with all that was going on in the past, and it was in its own way a year in which we both looked inward and both have changed in many ways, so what to do?

I took the road of handling it in a positive manner, reviewing everything that had happened and saying how with the changes in us we can handle it in a way more condusive to a better partnership, gave examples, and how we can look forward as more evolved partners, no dependency, just two evolved people sharing each other by choice and enhancing each others life journey's. Basically, saying that even though our tanks are empty right now, if we just allow each day to unfold we can rebuild the love and passion step by step, in a much better way than how we started off as teenagers, in a more mature evolved manner. I felt completely calm, was easily able to hear everything she said no matter how good or bad I perceived it to be, and told her flat out that I just spent the last year 24/7, even in my dreams working on this and on me. I said that the old us is gone and can be replaced by the next version. A big point for me is that I don't think love is like a bank account that you stick a million dollars in on day one and it carries you through the rest of your days. Instead it requires continual investment, like a garden needs constant caring and gentle tending. Anyway I'm willing to move on this way and it just requires the will to take the first few baby steps and that's how you start a new life.

Her reaction was all over the place. i can see that she's burnt out, confused, cynical, afraid, angry, defensive, and would angrily keep going to the past. Anytime she did I would validate it and where I could point to a positive change in one or both of us that would better serve us in the future.

At first she was seeming to be very agreeable to the discussion as a positive. The she 180'd and said she can't do this, she hates it here and wants out. So i said okay if that what you want then I'll move on too and I think this is a tragic lost opportunity. BTW, although we did not communicate well thru our M, we never got into "fights" in the sense of screaming and all that, so this entire conversation was calm like we usually are. Then she says that she should just disappear and then none of us will be affected by her. I say to her whatever we do is going to affect all of us for ever, and that disappearing will have its own affects. Then she leads the discussion back to the topic of what has been, and what could be going forward.

By now I'm literally exhausted and so is she. I ask her do you have any idea of what you want to do, as an individual and as a married partner. She says she has no idea what she wants or what to do, or even how to make the simplest step.


I tell her that we could choose the path of a new life, where she works on figuring out what she needs to do as an individual, has my full support, we walk the walk together stpe by step and give each other strength in ways we didn't before, don't forget the past but don't drag it along with us as an anchor, and we rejuvinate us day by day. Sounds good to me anyway. I tell her that's what I got and I'm not going to live any kind of life with anyone that isn't at least open to walking in the direction of a life together as partners so if you can't do it I'm going to do that somewhere.

She says she doesn't know what to do and sleepwalks upstairs to her monk's cell.

It felt good to get it all out, and she's the one that brought this all up. Honestly. I've never seen anyone with so many emotions good and bad play across their face.

I also felt very accepting of her one of many non-decisions when she said she wanted out. All of this detaching and soul searching has really helped me. I'm not saying I was Spock the Vulcan emotionally. I just has an easy calm acceptance to that possibility. Something Barely said today about how she will use Retroville to hopefully salvage her M, but if it didn't she would use what she learned to benefit her in her next. I thought that at that moment and felt I was totally in synch with that.

So now I have to decide how to handle this going forward. And I would LOVE some feedback, need it in fact.

Here's what I think at the moment and will definitely be mulling it over. I go active in a gentle way with her again, keep doing the things I was doing before - movies, museums, sporting events; let her live some sort of "us". I just let her simmer with this entire conversation while in the environment of a not completely separate life environment. Going semi-dark on her just doesn't seem to get her jump started to claw out of her depths, but I could be way wrong here in that maybe it's the only way. I really don't know.

I don't see her as a fighter for "us" even by taking the simplest steps, but maybe it's just because she can't as opposed to won't. In this discussion it really hit me that my love tank has gone empty too, and i did mention that it can be filled maybe not in one big blast but in day by day increments. I have never worked harder at anything in my life than this past year, and have been rebuffed the entire way yet she is still here. I'm not sure if its because she's not sure about us, or she doesn't have it together enough to bolt.

In any event I enter the new day still with a huge question mark in my life, and a very strong desire to be with a loving partner, which may not be her.

Christ carried the cross for what, one day? He got off easy. Right about now I'd trade spots with him.

Please friends send your wisdom to this home in the woods of New England! Grazie.

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#2227308 - 03/04/12 12:44 AM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: rickb89]
2thepoint Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1692
I just read your post but honestly don't have it in me right now to provide a meaningful response. I'll post something tomorrow.

In the meantime, I think you need to really think about what it is going to mean for you to re-engage with your W again and how that will affect your longer term goals.

Also, I know you went semi-dark and there is fallout from that approach, but maybe you need to be more assertive in your detachment. You know, like set her completely free and see where she ends up. It won't be easy and I'm sure it will be quite frightening for both of you. It may also take several months for things to work themselves out. So, be prepared for that if it comes to it.

Have you given any thought to setting your W up in her own place (not sure if you can swing that financially) but that would be one way to really get your W to wake up to the reality of her sitch.

Just some random thoughts. I'll post more tomorrow.

Take care!
_________________________
Me48 W50 S15 S11
M20 T23
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife

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#2227365 - 03/04/12 10:15 AM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: 2thepoint]
labug Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/11
Posts: 7804
Loc: Sonoran Desert
On the other side...

What kinds of things did you 2 enjoy doing as a couple when times were good? Would she be willing to have a "date" once a week or every 2 weeks? Would you be willing?

I think every time she drags it back to the past you should remind her that the past is over and if we can't let it go we relive it over and over. "W, I only want to look forward now"

Or is that true? Do you have a vision of the man you want to be? What is that?
_________________________
Me 56/H 57
M 35 S 24 S 21
Bomb 3/11 He moved out 3/11
Piecing 9/13 12/13 He's home now

The enemy is fear. We think it is hate but, it is fear. Gandhi


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#2227369 - 03/04/12 11:07 AM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: labug]
rickb89 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 1119
Labug...I am the man I want to be. It's self confidence, self actualized, loving father, friend to many, spiritual walker, giver, lover without hangups or baggage, adventurer, dreamer, writer, citizen of humanity, yogi, warrior, peacemaker.

I know who I am although I did need this past year to break out of some childhood trauma. I was this man as I describe in my M. I chose her and willingly took her baggage and issues because the great so far outweighted the issues, but unknowingly accepted what ultimately turned out to be a real challenge. I know my role in our problems, know its source, owned it, fixed it, apoligized for whatever hardships I contributed. I have been as loving as any man could ever be for a woman and she's not even in a place to love herself, never mind live with my love. It's a f'ing tragedy because she's too far gone and we're all going to take a soul beating for the rest of our live...her, me. my kids, future garndkids will never know the family we once were, a family that everyone loved, looked up to and wanted to be part of.

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#2227382 - 03/04/12 12:20 PM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: rickb89]
rickb89 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 1119
I am very sad today, the saddest I've ever felt. What was a possible outcome for me has to be made real. I have to let her go sink or swim, protect the family, protect me. I hear my boys and "daughter" in the house going about their day and realize what a shitt bomb they are getting dealt, but know that the current reality is far worse if nothing is done. I vowed to love this woman forever, and to give my boys the family I never had, and I vowed that if things got tough I would never stop until I'm dead to make it work. Sadly, if a change isn't made what's on life support will truly do permanent damage, beyond what horror has been visited on this family.

I listened to her last night for three hours. This morning when I left for yoga, she was out walking so I purposely took a route where I would not see her. Ironically, she was on the road I was on so I stopped and we spoke some more. Some points:

- I don't think she can make it out of the place she's in unless she is on her own. She needs to find out who and what she is, and grow up and get some adult skills. This past year has been nothing but a nightmarish purgatory on the home front and I really don't see any gains for her, never mind our M. In fact, in some ways I see her going backwards.

- she says she has driven everyone away from her and she expects to be alone, that she has alienated her kids, me, her Mom (who is moving out because of it). She says she can see how difficult it's going to be when things come up in the future like kid's weddings, grandkids, etc. However, she does not believe in any of the points I made to her last night about the positives, and a way to build a new M (see a few posts back), doesn't believe in those principles for us or anyone.

- she said today and has said before that she was never herself for many years, did not know who or what she was and went on autopilot but truly was not part of it, nor could manage to speak of it because of her communication hangups. That fact doesn't nake me feel all warm and fuzzy about our past, that she was zombiefied for years.

- investment companies say past performance is no indicator of future success. DB'ing says don't believe what you hear, and half of what you see. I do belive what I've seen and heard for the last year, and i do believe it does point towards future success or lack of it.

- I need to protect my kids. This has killed them all, and is making their lives horrible. My S13 was pretty upset this summer and started to act out viscously and aggresively. Every night I would take him for these long walk through the countryside and we would talk about it, and I would share with him how I suffered the same fate at a close age to his. I was able to get him back on track. Where was his Mom during this? Out f'ing around with her new lifestyle.

- I need to protect my finances. She's a walking deficit machine. She's never had any experience other than spending. I've offered throughout our whole M to teach her and she's never gotten it or worked with it. She's going to get a rude awakening because I intend to split it all up and she sinks or swims on her own. I still have two kids in college and one to go. I support them, her, her MIL, my "daughter". It's a huge burden. She does have a career now that the kids are older so she has an income, and she has contributed to the family finances but then negates it all with fiscal insanity.

- I have to redo the house back to some sense of normality. When she was home she would do some of the stuff the house required, but that all stopped a long time ago. Some times I feel like I'm living in that house in Fight Club. And she has taken on a Howard Hughes type existance, so although I have help from the kids, her crisis keeps bringing things back down in the state of the house. If I need to sell it once she's gone then i need to get it ready, and can't have a financial black hole preventing it.

- I have replayed the many posts to me from the team over and over again, and one thing I keep hearing is that I should stand for my M, and then I wonder what does standing for it exactly mean? Does that mean I let this continue because she needs support and we all go down? Can't I, with good moral backing, let her go out into the world and find her path as a parent sometimes has to do for a troubled kid? Isn't me taking control of my life, protecting my kids, giving her the chance to grow albiet by letting her go, actually standing for what is right?

I remember when the bomb first dropped, my first instinct was to take her at her word, that she didn't want a M or family and we would never have it again. I ended up, based on both fear, and on everything I was seeing in her, and what I believed about how families help each other that we could work together to get through this, and there would be a safe haven for her to work through her breakdown. In the end I do think it would have been wiser to just take her at her word. Okay go, and we'll see what happens. That might have forced breakthroughs that didn't happen in this environment.

I'm thinking I have to take this in steps. Let her go, regroup, repair the finances, the house. Get used to it all.

There's this three day period in May when I have our anniversary, my S21 b-day and mine. Last year she managed to forget them all, or not acknowledge any of it. My S21 was crushed because it was his 21st after all. It was truly awful to see what state she was in and how what once was the mother of all time had changed.

Maybe I will re-evalute then, and see if I need to take legal steps, and that gives her a cuople of months where the Rick train has moved on.

I'm sharing with you guys the biggest, scariest decision I have ever made. You guys know more about me in this than my own family or closest friends. I appreciate good, honest feedback, whether you agree or not.

Peace and love

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#2227393 - 03/04/12 01:10 PM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: rickb89]
purgatory Offline
Member

Registered: 12/12/11
Posts: 825
Loc: Virginia
All I can offer is a hug (((((((((((( Rick )))))))))))))

No one can fault you for coming to this conclusion, you've given so much energy, thoughts an prayers to your sitch over the past year.

It must feel like the ground is dropping out from under you, faith and prayer will keep you from falling.


You've always been a shining spirit on these boards, I hope that we can help you gain your sparkle back.
_________________________
M-31, H-31
T-9, M-7
S-6, s-20mth
sep 8/1/11
ILYNILWY 11/29/11
Creating separation papers.
Discover H has feelings for BFF, she does too 1/11/12
H moves out 1.20.12

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#2227396 - 03/04/12 01:23 PM Re: DB'ing is sooooo hard (part 5) [Re: rickb89]
2thepoint Offline
Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1692
Quote:
"I have replayed the many posts to me from the team over and over again, and one thing I keep hearing is that I should stand for my M, and then I wonder what does standing for it exactly mean? Does that mean I let this continue because she needs support and we all go down? Can't I, with good moral backing, let her go out into the world and find her path as a parent sometimes has to do for a troubled kid? Isn't me taking control of my life, protecting my kids, giving her the chance to grow albiet by letting her go, actually standing for what is right?"


I think the answer lies in the last question in your paragraph above. Standing for your M doesn't mean ignoring the elephant in the room. You need to deal with this differently than you have been. What you have been doing hasn't worked, so now it is time to do something different.

Quote:
I remember when the bomb first dropped, my first instinct was to take her at her word, that she didn't want a M or family and we would never have it again..... In the end I do think it would have been wiser to just take her at her word. Okay go, and we'll see what happens. That might have forced breakthroughs that didn't happen in this environment.


I agree with this ^^^. Sometimes people have to hit bottom or at least face their demons head on in order to find themselves, breakthrough to the other side. What is on the other side is unknown but there is another side. So you've tried one approach and it really hasn't worked out. Now it is time for plan B. Nothing wrong with that. And you may still ultimately get what you want out of this, albeit via a different path.

Quote:
I'm thinking I have to take this in steps. Let her go, regroup, repair the finances, the house. Get used to it all.


Rick, based upon everything you have shared about your sitch over the months has lead me to believe that your W needs to be set free. She needs to find herself and you need some space yourself to heal from this nightmare you and your family have endured. I know it is extremely painful to arrive at this decision point, but I think you knew it was coming, eventually.

And, setting her free will also force the issue to a head and either way, whatever the outcome, there will be light and peace and movement towards a better place.

Quote:
"Maybe I will re-evalute then, and see if I need to take legal steps, and that gives her a cuople of months where the Rick train has moved on."


I've suggested that if doable, you help your W get set up with different living arrangements outside of your home. She doesn't seem to be capable of keeping herself together much less the family. So, from my perspective she is better off working on herself, by herself and whatever professional help she needs. But you need to be the rock for the family at this time because she can't do it.

And by the way, what are you doing to keep yourself healthy? Stress is not good for anyone, it will eat you from the inside out. Please take care of yourself.

Hang in there, Rick. We're here for you man!
_________________________
Me48 W50 S15 S11
M20 T23
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife

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