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Yes, I was asking what the criticism from your parents was like. It was a question, thus the question marks.

Some people have very strong emotional reactions with very bad feelings if someone thinks they've made a mistake or error of some sort, done something wrong, or not done something in the manner they were told to do so. They also demonstrate significant disdain if they think someone is making a mistake, holds a false belief, is doing something the wrong way.

It sounds like you may be like this. It sounds like you have deep emotional wounds around such things that may keep you stuck, and that you have a pattern of treating others such that if they make mistakes, are unskilled, uninformed, wrong, etc, that they too are worthy of disdain and not worthy of love.

Not everyone is, ya know? I can be wrong, mistaken, make typos, use poor grammar, be misinformed, mess up a project, misunderstand, etc... It does not emotionally wound me. And, I feel perfectly lovable and worthy in spite of such things. Of course, there are other things about me that make me feel insecure, worried about being lovable, etc... But, making mistakes just does not phase me.

If you are so wounded by the thought of being wrong or mistaken, you'll quite naturally do everything possible to keep yourself from entertaining that view. You'll deny, rationalize, etc...

Contrary to what you suggest, you seem to be a master at convincing yourself that you are right and others are wrong. You toss up whatever argument is facile to justify your position. That seems to be your primary way of dealing with things in your exchanges here and your reported exchanges with H.

What if I'm right? What if CZ is in such pain because it hurts her so much to risk being thought of as being mistaken? Not for petty know-it-all reasons, but because it hurts you to your core as a human being? Can you have compassion for such a person? Can you see how sad it would be to be a child like that, to have one's lovability linked to not making mistakes? To me it is heart-wrenching.

We all stumble, fall, make mistakes. We're all incompetent boneheads at times. We all feel certain about things when we're totally wrong.

So what? I mean, really, so what? It doesn't hurt me.

It doesn't have to hurt you.

Do you feel rage or deep shame when you are mistaken or do something wrong (and I don't mean morally wrong)?


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Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
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Great, Accuray, now I've got that song in my head ... "Here comes the spider, here comes the spider, here comes the spiderman.....!"

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I never treated my W the way your H treats you. My W's issues precede me and don't have that much to do with me other than that I can exacerbate them and they bother me.
Except that what I'm hearing from everyone here is that my issues don't have anything to do with H's actions either. That it's coming from some childhood hurt. So my issues evidently preceded my H, too. I'm just saying, if it's this hard to fix, I get checking out. I know EXACTLY what to do to promote my H's happiness, too, and as long as I didn't expect him to do anything in kind, we'd be great!

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Those blind spots could just be my misunderstanding because of the difficulty of this medium, or they could be real. I don't know.
Yes, the basic problem of blind spots. One is blind to them. Until they poke in the butt.

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There is definitely so much frustration and ire directed at H, but the examples you give of why he deserves that don't seem that bad. Maybe that's why there's the disconnect. We can't see the non-verbal communication or hear the tone of voice.
I've have definitely considered this could possibly be part of my problem! That I just have my standards set too high. I acknowledge that I have perfectionist tendencies, and I've been told that I impose my standards onto other people. I've considered perhaps it really isn't that big of a deal that H sought out and chatted with his exGF, shared how he wished they had never broke up, fantasized with her about what life would be like now. Maybe it really isn't that bad. He certainly argued that it wasn't. Maybe I just need to lower my standards. Maybe it wouldn't be a big deal if I got a little touchy-feely with a guy at a bar some night, maybe kissed a little. I mean, at least I'm not in love with him and don't have a sexual history with him, so that could be somewhat equated to what H did. I know I might really enjoy it, so as long as I hide it from H, then why not? Maybe.

H has always said that I should focus more on forgiveness. I get that. Forgiveness is especially easy when there's nothing to forgive (H not liking mushrooms, for example.) If I don't have as high of standards for our M, then I can certainly accommodate. At the same time, if I do happen to do something that H doesn't like, I can focus on the fact that he's supposed to forgive me and move on, just like he purports about me -- so no biggie.

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Maybe we can try focusing on what makes you feel good about you, and forget the problems and issues for now. I think your posters are getting you rolled up in a carpet today, and maybe that's not productive.
That sounds fun. I don't think that would address my issues, though. I do have the weekend to myself -- S and H are going camping w/ boyscouts. I'm going to a movie tonight with BFF, probably a margarita afterwards. Tomorrow, I'm planning to visit my 90yo gma and let her beat me at Scrabble a few times (let her! lol! She cleans my clock!) Somewhere in there, I have to do some homework, which is not bad. I'm actually enjoying going back to school. It gives my mind something to focus on besides my M. Sunday is open, so if the weather is nice, I'd love to get out, maybe go biking.

Some of your Q's I'll have to think about. I can't even imagine 4 weeks of whatever I wanted to do. But it will be fun to think about.

BTW, the cookies are baking for the camping trip. I already plan to give H a big hug and a peck when he leaves (yes, this is big for me.) I'm not completely uncooperative here, just not seeing the forest yet.


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Okay, catchup....
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On jumping out of an airplane, are you saying that there is no way that you could ever trust someone to pack your chute?
Nope. Never. No way, no how. Not on THAT issue. And statistics mean absolutely nothing to me.

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If he is having an EA NOW, then it's not "history", it's an issue to work on. Have you told your h that it hurts you, (or have you assumed he knows or ought to know?)
I did comment that I don't believe he knows you love him (do you? I mean I can't tell) and if he truly does not feel loved by you then it's very easy to see how he'd rationalize an affair, even just an EA.
Now? Who can say. He hid it before, I don't snoop. Yes, I've told him it hurt me, he apologized, but then went on to justify it, so the apology is sort of moot. I'm sure I love him, but I also dislike him very much. I posted elsewhere that "no feelings" is a defense mechanism, and I'm all over that. I definitely don't feel loved by him, so I could easily rationalize an EA as well, but I don't because it's not appropriate in a M. But then this goes back to my needing to lower my standards.

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We all need some intimacy in our lives and if the old flame gives that to him, you might want to look at how empty HIS love tank is. I say that b/c you don't seem to think you play any role in his behavior. I am not making you responsible for him, but I AM saying it did not occur in a vacuum.
I get that, but again. I'm not sure if it's possible for me to fill his love tank. Remember, he wasn't content with my focused attention on our honeymoon.

More coming...


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I see that could actually be much more powerful in your "choice to be a WAS" than originally anticipated.

I thought I read that you got over it. Obviously, you are attached to a belief that your H would rather be with someone else, so you decided to leave FIRST. To be fair, I am not saying that you are being mean or bad. I am just saying that is how it can look to an outside observer.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. It's what I was trying to say when I said forgiveness doesn't take away the fact that now you KNOW something, and knowing it changes everything. OW wasn't the only instance. This has been a pretty consistent message throughout our M. It just seems that anyone and everyone is more valued/fun/entertaining/lovable/important/etc. than me. It's not so much a matter of leaving FIRST, but more a matter of not having a reason to stay.

BUT!! We're back to talking about H's actions. That's not good.


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Quote:
Yes, I was asking what the criticism from your parents was like. It was a question, thus the question marks.
No, what you described was not what I dealt with. Rather, it was the continuous message that it was good, but not good enough. A "B" could always be an "A." An "A" could always be an "A+." As a child, it was tough, but I completely get it as a parent raising an unmotivated child.

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Not everyone is, ya know?
Yes, I do know that.

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If you are so wounded by the thought of being wrong or mistaken, you'll quite naturally do everything possible to keep yourself from entertaining that view. You'll deny, rationalize, etc...

Contrary to what you suggest, you seem to be a master at convincing yourself that you are right and others are wrong. You toss up whatever argument is facile to justify your position. That seems to be your primary way of dealing with things in your exchanges here and your reported exchanges with H.
What if I'm right?
Then then would explain a lot.

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What if CZ is in such pain because it hurts her so much to risk being thought of as being mistaken?
Then that would definitely be a problem for CZ. (CV?)

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Not for petty know-it-all reasons, but because it hurts you to your core as a human being?
Again, then that would be a problem.

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Can you have compassion for such a person?
Yes, I certainly can. That would have to be a very hard thing for that person.

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Can you see how sad it would be to be a child like that, to have one's lovability linked to not making mistakes? To me it is heart-wrenching.
It would be heart-wrenching to me as well to see a child go through that.

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So what? I mean, really, so what? It doesn't hurt me.
People make mistakes all the time. The degree of the problem is only as bad as the outcome. For example, a heart surgeon slipping with a scalpel resulting in the patient dying is obviously worse than a child coloring outside the lines. Both people are still lovable.

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Do you feel rage or deep shame when you are mistaken or do something wrong (and I don't mean morally wrong)?
No. I get frustrated with myself, I'm disappointed. I do not ever experience what you call rage (certainly not with mistakes.) I watched my father punch a wall or kick something across the room whenever something didn't go his way. I thought at the time it was ridiculous and still do. My response is to just deal and fix it. I make mistakes all the time, but I can't begin to list one for you.

Regarding morally wrong, then yes I do feel it deeply, and carry it for a long time. I still don't feel rage, just regret and disappointment. I do have a very high moral standard, for myself and others that care to engage with me.


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Great, Accuray, now I've got that song in my head ... "Here comes the spider, here comes the spider, here comes the spiderman.....!"

Isn't that the same tune as Speed Racer?? "Go Speed Racer, go Speed Racer, go Speed Racer, gooooo....."


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Then it takes me back to the question about the time. How long do you want to be in planning mode?

Just make a choice. One week...? One month...?

Until I have a plan. I will be in this "pause" mode until I have a plan to get out of it. And I don't care if that's a minute or a lifetime. If plan A is "Put on this parachute and jump out of this perfectly good airplane," then I will make a plan B.


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Well a night off is a wonderful thing!

I've gone back through and reread this thread, again, as suggested. I can see how my responses could be interpreted as resistance. I'm going to make that a primary focus for any future responses, to avoid doing that, that is. Somehow I will have to distinguish between rejection/resistance and just sharing information. Same thing with being defensive: what's defensive and what's just sharing information. I'm guessing it has a lot to do with the attitude behind it, so I'll pay close attention to that.

Meanwhile, S and H are off camping. It was cold last night, so I don't envy them at all. Before they left, I did help H pack, sent along his cookies. And I gave him a hug and a peck when he left. Then he came back for two more, which I obliged.

I'm not heartless. I really do care for him when we were not in conflict. I just wish that wasn't so often. I'm going to keep working on what I need to do to eliminate my part of that. I hope I'm strong enough. I'm just awfully tired (not resisting, just stating how I feel.)

One day at a time.

You know, the thought just occurred to me -- I am sooo happy neither of us is dealing with the OM/OW. We couldn't do it. We'd just be done. I know other people have managed. I know Sandi worked really hard to get there. I couldn't. It would just be too much. One thing to be really thankful for, I guess.


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Originally Posted By: Crazyville
Well a night off is a wonderful thing!

Meanwhile, S and H are off camping. It was cold last night, so I don't envy them at all. Before they left, I did help H pack, sent along his cookies. And I gave him a hug and a peck when he left. Then he came back for two more, which I obliged.

I'm not heartless. I really do care for him when we were not in conflict. I just wish that wasn't so often. I'm going to keep working on what I need to do to eliminate my part of that. I hope I'm strong enough. I'm just awfully tired (not resisting, just stating how I feel.)


Good for you, CV! smile


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Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife
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