LRT (also known as Limbo land)

[ces67]

Thanks Purg- Tonight was the only night the museum was open late enough to go. I think W is a bit upset as she needs to get the kids packed to leave tomorrow for their spring break trip. She got a bit testy with me last night saying she was tutoring and wouldn't be home until 5 to fix dinner.

I told her I'd just grab something quick for S13 and me when I got home. Then she snapped about eating out too much and I replied that I was referring to getting something quick at the house. Think I got a "whatever" response....

I agree that each of our sitch's are custom made even though the similarities across them are extraordinary.

BM- Thanks for pointing that out. Of course with Al Anon, the focus is on me and who I am (as it should be) but it does help to hear validation of the baggage my W is carrying with her. I see it and hate it for her. I've tried to help her understand how letting go and dealing with it will help her find real happiness but I also realize that my trying to push that is coming across as controlling so I've had to really step back and stop.

Journal stuff:
Still reading through "No More Mr. Nice Guy". Its a lot to digest. There are a lot of activities inside the book that I'm not doing yet. I'm processing at a high level but haven't dug in like I need to on all of them. I plan on getting through the book and then re-reading it to get deeper. Her's what I've gathered so far for me:

-I'm not as honest as I thought I was. Hiding my emotions in an effort to accommodate/please others is a form of dishonesty. I had convinced myself that this was a noble act. The fact that I had expectations and even resentment because my needs were not met is evidence it is not noble.
-There is this whole section about being too close or "monogamous" with the mom. I don't get this. My brother and I have spoken several times about how we both love our parents very much but struggle to feel an intimate closeness with them. Dad is a very kind, hard-working man but has struggled to open up with how he feels (pretty sure I get the nice guy traits from him - keeping them or not is my choice though..)
-I'm actually making good progress on several things before ever reading the book. Have made quite a few new friends that are guys since my move. Have also created some extremely open "bare it all" type relationships & conversations with a few of them. - And amazing enough, we're still friends.
-Book talks about a core ingredient of the issue is unmet needs growing up. I clearly remember a point in school when we studied "stoicism" and thinking that is how I need to be to deal with life. And I did.
-Also see where I gave up the idea that anyone wanted to or was willing to meet my needs so I gave up asking and took it all upon myself or decided that maybe I didn't need it anyway.
-Growing up, my focus of friends was mixed. I did have a core group of guy friends through school & college. I also see where I preferred the company/friendship of women a great deal also. Even after W and I started dating, I can see where I let my guy relationships slip away. Thankfully, I've been able to reconnect with a few college buddies and our friendships are growing again.

As I said, still need to go through the book again and dig into the activities. Also still haven't spoken to W about t-shirt & picture. I let the Al Anon discussion take precident and haven't touched this topic. Tonight is the last night I'll see family for over a week. I'll be out with S13 most of the evening so if I don't do it tonight it will have to wait until they get back. OR I could just take them down, place them in the bedroom W uses and let her know how I feel and what I did with her stuff. Not sure about that one though. Feel like if I'm going to do it, it needs to be face to face.

Hope everyone has a great day in DB land...

[ces67]

W called me at work today. 2 topics:

1) Wanted to know how late I'd be out with S13 because he has to pack and finish homework. I let her know I was leaving early so we could get there and back earlier enough for him to take care of what he needed to.

It seems like an inconvenience to her that I am taking S13 tonight when she'd rather have him packing his stuff. In the past I would try to fix this and adjust to make her happy and allow her to keep her plans in tact. This time, I'm thinking that this is my time with S13 on something he wanted to do and its something I introduced and we're going to do it. This has been a complaint of W in the past that I've not been involved enough the way she wants me to with the kids.

2) W needs me to look over a few things before she submits the tax return. They are questions about last year's taxes which I had to handle with a tax service due to some complexities of unemployment & 401k withdrawals. Told her that was fine and I'd do that with her tonight.

She still has to make a deal out of things. She said "I'll just answer what I think and if we get audited then we get audited."

My plan is to stay calm and thank her for doing all the tax stuff. This is also good because I'll get to see what the return looks like and know how much to expect. This will also bridge to the conversation of how we use the money once it comes back.

[purgatory]

The "No More Mr. Nice Guy" sounds like something my H should read. He was just like you in the sense that he was 'nobel' and kept his feelings inside so as not to upset anyone. He has also talked about (almost in the exact same words) that he accepted the fact that his needs weren't going to be met. But I think this second one is the reason he left.

H also had more female friends then men for as log as I can remember. But since the bomb, he's reached out and built some good bonds with some guys that were just acquaintances before. Is this a good thing or bad thing for him to think about reconciling our M??

I wonder how I could read it and apply that knowledge in a reaverse kind of way to help H see that his needs *can* be met with me and that he should express himself openly.

I think you're handling the sitch with your S very well, even of W gets a little pissy about it. You have control over the type of R you have with him, regardless of what she thinks. I know you'll miss them on their trip- bu maybe this time can be used to continue building the 'men' friendships.

[labug]

Hi Ces, As I was reading your post, this

She said "I'll just answer what I think and if we get audited then we get audited."

rally jumped out at me.

Money was a big trigger for me. I was always freaked out when I thought I made a mistake with money and that we would somehow end up penniless (possible, not probable). I would react with panic internally and then throw out some angry retort with a don't give a sh!t attitude. All because of my fear.

Might your W's reactions be based in her fear?

[ces67]

H also had more female friends then men for as log as I can remember. But since the bomb, he's reached out and built some good bonds with some guys that were just acquaintances before. Is this a good thing or bad thing for him to think about reconciling our M??

Purg - I'd say its a good thing. I'm still reading but from what I get from the book, "nice guys" seek approval from women especially, one of the ways to remedy that is to have strong friendships with guys where we feel accepted. With that acceptance, there isn't as much a reliance on women for approval. How is your H with his Mom? What's that relationship like? The book says the relationships with the parents can also play a big part in how the nice guy processes things.

[ces67]

Hi Ces, As I was reading your post, this

She said "I'll just answer what I think and if we get audited then we get audited."

rally jumped out at me.

Might your W's reactions be based in her fear?

Hi labug, it could very well be. I think there is also a big chance that shame is mixed into this. W knows she spent money we didn't have and that's a big reason we have the debt issues we do. W is already running up her balance on her own cc just in the 2 months she's been using it. She's hiding the statement and the transaction so I don't see what she is buying.

She specifically asked to do our taxes. Her actual statement was "I'm taking the taxes back this year".

We did go over the taxes tonight but it was not pleasant. She asked if I had time talk about them. So I went in and sat next to her. She asked a question and I responded with a question to understand what she was looking for. Her response was "Don't you even know what kind of account you had?" in a very sacastic tone. She threw another comment like that at me and I just looked at her and said "Do you want to talk about this or just criticize me?"

At that she said "I don't want to do anything. You should have done the taxes since you did them last year" and walked out of the room. At that point I went through the papers and reviewed what was needed and let here know it looked fine to me.

I've backed away too many times and tonight I just couldn't do it. W walked back into the room and I asked her point blank why she felt the need to be rude to me and critize me. She just said "I don't know". I responded by saying "That answer is getting really old, I hope you find a different one soon." (Yeah, I know not my best DB night).

Earlier in the evening W asked D is she knew where her jeans were. Then she said "Did you ask your dad if he saw him...not that he'd remember". She didn't know I could hear her. So I responded by saying, Can you just ask me without the snide remarks?"

So after our snapping, I finally said, "You told me you wanted to do the taxes, if you didn't I would have done them. I appreciate you that you did them. Then a little later I asked her if there was something else she was mad about and needed to talk about or is it just our situation overall? She said it was just the same as it always is.

After this she kind of calmed down a little but we didn't really talk except to say "good night".

On a bright now, S and I had a fun evening together at the museum.

Family leaves tomorrow so I won't see them again until Sunday of next week. I plan on enjoying myself...

[BFloat]

maybe i need to read this book too. my H seems to gravitate towards female friendships. the problem i guess is when they form emotional bonds w/ these other women rather than their wife.

ces, i was sort of thinking the same thing as labug. seems like the anger is a cover up.

have to say.. really admire how you're handling things and willingness to read and look within.

[labug]

I think you said she is an adult child and probably has a lot of shame around not being good enough. Not that that excuses her behavior but helps in understanding where it comes from.

I went to my home group Alanon meeting this morning and the topic was compassion, both self-compassion and compassion for those who hurt us. Just as we are wounded, so are they.

It's really hard to muster up that compassion sometimes.

[ces67]

Yeah, i didn't really pull the compassion thing off tonight. I honestly don't feel too bad about calling her out on her behaviors this evening.

I know she's hurting. I know that pain is driving her behavior. But I also know that I grew up watching my dad tuck his tail between his legs every time my mom started yelling at him and I fell into the same behavior. I don't want that for my son and I don't want my D to think that is an appropriate way to treat her husband.

I did not yell at her. I was stern and I was direct. (and a tad bit condesending with the "hope you find a better answer")

Typically after the few times this has happened, I actually end up getting an apology from W for her actions. But I'm not expecting one since she leaves in the morning.

Labug - W told me once after the bomb that she was thankful that she knew I would never harm her or abuse her. She knows that I have tried to take care of her. But her excuse is "you're a nice guy but there are lots of nice guys and I don't love them either."

I'm thankful that she knows she is safe with me. But I'm ready to kill this "nice guy" and bury the body where no one can find him again...

[ces67]

maybe i need to read this book too. my H seems to gravitate towards female friendships. the problem i guess is when they form emotional bonds w/ these other women rather than their wife.

BF - I can only speak for me, but there is a validation I was looking for from women. Not sure why I needed it from women more then men.

I noticed this especially on a business trip a while back. It had been about a year since the bomb. It seemed everywhere I looked was a gorgeous woman. But the thing I realized is that I didn't want these women, I just wanted them to notice me. Do you see the difference? I just wanted to be noticed by someone - I was basing my own value on on whether or not women I didn't even know, noticed me.

I came home and actually told my W about this. It was a big step for me to realize that I was seeking validation from strangers and I had put that same responsibility on my W during our marriage. It wasn't good for either of us.

So I guess from this, validating your husband is a good thing to a point. It does build a connection, but he's got to grow to a point that he can apprecaite it from you without needing it for his own self-worth. But if he doesn't realize that then he's going to follow the woman that feeds that need. Even if its temporary, and it typically is...