When it's a one-way street...part 3

[2thepoint]

Thanks 2!

I read this as saying, "Look H, I think you are full of crap and I can prove it, but I'm not going to waste my time!" It would probably have been best if you didn't even go down this path.

Okay, to be completely honest, I do think he's full of cr@p. Would it have been offensive if I had simply said, "I don't believe it does say that, but I could be wrong and I would be happy to consider anything you'd like to point me to."? I'm really not up for sitting down and looking through the bible with him, especially when I believe he is wrong. Also, I feel like that's putting him in a position where I will literally be working with him and ultimately pointing out that he's wrong, and to me, that would be more in line with "proving" it.

If it was necessary to touch on this, maybe it would have been more productive to pull out a few selected quotes and ask him to help you understand what he is thinking, because you're not getting it.

Can you tell me how that would be different than my asking him to explain his belief that God wants us to sleep in the same bed? I feel like any time I ask for an explanation, I'm being offensive somehow, yet now you're suggesting I should.

So when you said "that's all I need to know" what were you thinking? What do you think your H thinks you were thinking?

I was thinking his clearly different perception of himself was going to result in a huge conflict if I attempted to discuss it with him. Since he was unable to see his own shortcomings in light of the marriage definition, it meant we were simply on completely different planets when it came defining the problems in the relationship. Since we communicate so ineffectively, I believed any further conversation about the topic would be monumental, unsuccessful, and pointless. I wasn't going to try to correct him -- he's entitled to his perspective. I don't really know what he thought, although he still keeps asking me what issues I had with it. I've reluctantly given him two.

I would have dropped it until the issue came up again, and then I would have said something like, "I was waiting for that email you said you were going to send" and leave it at that. No need to escalate.

I'm having a difficult time distinguishing the difference between two instances where in one case, the approach is bad, and in another the same approach is good. You indicated it would have been good if I had offered/asked to sit down with him and look up scriptural references for sleeping in the same bed, but when I do attempt to work/talk with him about his definition for marriage, I've done something wrong because I pursued the email.

Would it be good/reasonable to just sit and wait for him to initiate/drive? I can do that, but I feel so checked out of the relationship if I do. Like the conversation in the car, he just doesn't invest. Like the email, he'll often say he's going to do something and then never does. I don't know how to tell when I'm helping the relationship or hurting it. It seems like I'm just always wrong.

You pushed him for the email, so you should have let him send it. By pressing the issue over and over and then telling him to basically forget it, it really comes across a lot like Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football. Go ahead Charlie, kick the ball, I won't pull the ball away.

It's interesting that you would say that I'M the one doing that. I would have said the same thing about him. He says he wants to engage with me, but then doesn't send the email. When I come to him and want to engage, by asking for the email, he complains that I'm hounding him. So I say nevermind, and then suddenly he won't leave it alone. If I initiated a conversation tonight, because he last said he still wanted to talk about it, he would be resistant. (That reminds me, my Sole Partner book came and it has a chapter on this dance, I believe. I need to go read that.) In any case, I would say my actions are responsive, not leading, but I'm trying to apply what you're saying.

Looking for a plan going forward, incorporating everything you're suggesting. I have to admit that I'm so gun-shy right now, that I'm afraid to say much of anything to him. Would it be wrong to do absolutely nothing to work on the relationship until he brings it up or makes a suggestion? Honestly, he might never. He claims he just never knows how to initiate or what to talk about.

CV - it is really hard to comment on each specific interaction you have with your H. The whole dynamic between you two just seems so screwy.

Accuray commented on your other post so when you have a minute, go take a look at what he has to say there. His points about how he sees the interaction between the two of you, seems to be pretty spot on in my opinion.

In a previous post I suggested you take a look at a book called "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It." I really think you should take a look at it.

Here is the list of the chapter titles:

Part One: Why it has been so hard to improve your relationship
1 - How we break the connection: Fear and Shame
2 - Why we fight: The reactivity of fear and shame
3 - The silent male: What he's thinking and feeling
4 - The worst thing a woman does to a man: Shaming
5 - The worst thing a man does to a woman: Leaving her alone but married
6 - How fear and shame lead to infidelity, separation and divorce

Part Two: Using your fear and shame to create love beyond words
7 - Your core values
8 - Learning to transform fear and shame in your relationship
9 - Binocular vision
10 - The natural language of binocular vision: When sex talks, who needs words?
11 - The only connection skill you need: Stepping into the puddle
12 - If you want connection, forget "feelings" think motivation
13 - Man to man - How to strengthen your relationship without becoming a woman
14 - The power love formula: Four and three quarter minutes a day to a powerful relationship

Conclusion: If you want to love big, you have to think small

[Crazyville]

I just ordered the book from the library. Now I'm going to go review Accuray's posting....

[Crazyville]

Hi CV,

I definitely feel you are itching for an argument with H, even though you may feel you are being calm and rational. From my interpretation, your opinions are well considered and well researched. You have a lot of conviction in your beliefs, and you feel that what you believe is well-justified.

H, on the other hand, seems to be constantly getting caught flat-footed. He is not well researched or well thought out in advance. He's coming into these conversations not well able to express himself and tries to wing it.

When you sense he's doing that, you pounce. You try to shine a light on his contradictions and irrational statements. He then sees that you're out maneuvering him, and he gets embarrassed, defensive, and/or belligerent because he's been painted into a corner. It seems that when he realizes he's been cornered, he just wants to let the issue drop and walk away, but you keep chasing him to bring his point to a close when it's obviously not going anywhere.

Honestly it comes across a bit like bullying -- you are smarter, faster, etc., where he is slower, less prepared, less able to think on his feet. It doesn't seem like you respect him, so you treat him like someone who is not worthy of your respect.

I think you're putting a veneer of "nice and accommodating" over the top, but it's easy for him (and the folks on this board) to see through that right away.

WRT the tactical dilemmas, snoring makes me nuts too. Not being able to get a restful night of sleep is the worst. Some suggestions:

1) Twitching: How about a king bed composed of two twins pushed together? That way you have your own mattress and may be insulated from his twitching. You can still touch across the gap before you fall asleep and when you wake up, but when you're sleeping you're isolated.

2) Snoring: Either you need to deal with it or he does. You can't both do nothing. He could try breathe-right strips, or other solutions from a doctor. You could get used to wearing earplugs. One of you would have to do something.

WRT the respect issue, do you believe your H is as intelligent as you are? DO you respect him? It doesn't sound like it, it sounds like you feel contempt for him and look down on him. If that's the case, it's going to be hard to get back to loving him.

Accuray

I'm just copying this over here, as to not lose it on the previous post. It has a lot of great points that I want to get back to.

One of you would have to do something.

One simple question before I get into all the complicated stuff. Why does one of us have to do something? Why can't we just accept that this is how it is? I've wanted for my whole marriage for H to earn more money so I could quit work and be a SAHM. He was management when I met him. He's been steadily working his way down the corporate ladder ever since. He COULD go back to school and get a masters, but he hasn't. He COULD get some certification, but he hasn't. I've been blessed in my career and I'm making the best of it in spite of having to work when I don't want to, even going back to school myself, and I haven't brought it up to H in forever. It simply is what it is and it's not likely to change. Why are H's demands acceptable? Why isn't his approach "nagging?" Why isn't his claim that God wants us to sleep together "bullying?" It's certainly how I feel.

Meanwhile, I have to go study for a micro exam tomorrow (eek!) so I'll have to post more detail regarding the rest of the recent posts later.

But thanks so much for the feedback!

[Accuray]

One simple question before I get into all the complicated stuff. Why does one of us have to do something? Why can't we just accept that this is how it is? I've wanted for my whole marriage for H to earn more money so I could quit work and be a SAHM. He was management when I met him. He's been steadily working his way down the corporate ladder ever since. He COULD go back to school and get a masters, but he hasn't. He COULD get some certification, but he hasn't. I've been blessed in my career and I'm making the best of it in spite of having to work when I don't want to, even going back to school myself, and I haven't brought it up to H in forever. It simply is what it is and it's not likely to change. Why are H's demands acceptable? Why isn't his approach "nagging?" Why isn't his claim that God wants us to sleep together "bullying?" It's certainly how I feel.

Ha ha! Good points. I can see I would enjoy debating with you in person. You are right -- you don't have to do anything. I guess I read into your post that you wanted to respond to that request from H, but you certainly don't have to. I thought you asked him what he wanted from marriage, he answered, and you were thinking about what it would take to deliver on that.

Don't get me started on the "what God wants" stuff. That would make me absolutely crazy too.

A couple other thoughts, when H asks you what you mean or what you think and you don't tell him, that's really aggravating, I think if you get to that point you're not doing yourself any favors by withholding your thoughts. I guess I would ask why you're having these conversations you're really not interested in having. You're going into them with your mind already made up. If H happens to support your pre-decision, it's a non-event. If he doesn't, the discussion isn't going to be productive because you're not going to respect what he has to say and you're really not motivated to change your position. Why are you even having these conversations?

I'm happy you found value in "The Solo Partner", I just received my copy in the mail too and was going to start it. I've been reading exclusively e-books because I can do it without scrutiny, so that one is going to be more of a challenge. Although 80% of pursuers are women, I am the 20%

--Accuray

[Crazyville]

Okay, now for the more complicated stuff.

I thought you asked him what he wanted from marriage, he answered, and you were thinking about what it would take to deliver on that.

I don't remember how the topic came up. I just remember him listing off a string of things that God wants me to do. I'm perfectly fine sleeping in the other room.

It doesn't seem like you respect him, so you treat him like someone who is not worthy of your respect.

I think you're putting a veneer of "nice and accommodating" over the top, but it's easy for him (and the folks on this board) to see through that right away.

WRT the respect issue, do you believe your H is as intelligent as you are? DO you respect him? It doesn't sound like it, it sounds like you feel contempt for him and look down on him. If that's the case, it's going to be hard to get back to loving him.

Honestly, no, I don't respect him. He's done too many things to me for me to do that. Plus, it seems nearly impossible to get basic courtesy and respect from him, so no, I don't offer it in return. I do think I'm probably smarter than him, and he would say so too, but that alone wouldn't cause me to disrespect him. He worked hard for many years to earn it.

I have mentioned that I'm the WAW, right? That my greatest desire for a long while has just been to get as far away from him as I can? That I'd like to salvage our marriage, but for now I'd just like to eliminate the conflict? Because I'm thinking you all are expecting a whole lot more from me right now than I'm capable of.

If you can just help me to not antagonize the situation, that would be good. The "nice" parts will have to come later.

A couple other thoughts, when H asks you what you mean or what you think and you don't tell him, that's really aggravating, I think if you get to that point you're not doing yourself any favors by withholding your thoughts. I guess I would ask why you're having these conversations you're really not interested in having.

I think it's probably best not to have them. If I have any opinion that differs from H's, then it gets heated. It's as if my being married to him means I'm supposed to think just like him, and if I don't, I'm doing something wrong. So would it be reasonable to simply decline? Could I say that's not a topic I care to discuss? Remember, I'm just trying to not make things worse, to reduce the conflict.

So, going back to the Sole Partner book, there's a chapter on anger. It's sort of mis-titled because it's primarily about expectations. But it says that "when we expect or anticipate something and it does not materialize, disappointment follows and our hurt is transformed into anger, which, if not resolved, usually turns into resentment, and can over time, develop into bitterness." I think that's something I can work on. I think I might even be past the anger and resentment into bitterness already. I definitely have a pile of failed expectations. The book says you can either smolder, lower expectations, or leave. Obviously, it leads you to lower expectations. It looks like it's just a method for facilitating looking at yourself. So I'm going to try to work on that. I wish it went more into what the relationship looked like afterwards. It has a few examples, but a lot of them are people leaving. I don't know how to lower my expectation about honesty, so that I just don't expect my H not to lie to me, and then still create a healthy marriage. Thoughts on this from y'all would be fabo!

I'm kind of all over this book right now, squeezing it in when I can. Hopefully I'll have a chance to really read it this weekend.

[~ kd ~]

This works in both direction, CV:

We instruct the LBS that even when we may disagree with our spouse, we validate their opinions.

Validating does not mean that we agree with them, it simply means that we accept that they believe their opinions and have their feelings which may be different than ours.

The language we relay that information with can be important. Words can be very precise, but everyone has their own perspective and will interpret even the most obvious facts through their own filters.

"I understand your position and will take it into consideration." might be something you would say to your H. You are neither saying he is "right" nor are you saying that you will integrate his opinions into your own set of beliefs. Just that you are open to allowing his differing position into your relationship as you hope he eventually mirror on your opinions.

Do unto others...

[Crazyville]

KD, I don't have a problem with him having a differing opinion. Many times, I've said, "I understand your opinion/need/perspective. I don't have the same. But you more than are welcome to act upon yours as you wish, I just don't care to participate with you." An example is his kids. I don't feel about them the way he does, their not my kids. I'm not going to cater to them like he does, or adjust my life around theirs like he does. He's welcome to, but I won't. This is unacceptable to him.

It's actually what I was trying to do when I declined to talk about the marriage/friendship article, but apparently didn't do it very well.

[Crazyville]

They're not, not their not. Yuck. I wish we could edit.

[Accuray]

Sorry CV,

So are these your goals?

You want less conflict in your relationship with your husband. You're not looking for your marriage to be "great", but you want it to be tolerable enough to ride it out until your kids are in college and you can end it.

If you could just live as roommates with your husband and enjoy the same courtesies that a roommate would expect, you would be satisfied.

The issues preventing this goal from being realized are the following:

1) Your H is bothered by how you treat him and obviously wants something different and that is causing tension -- i.e. he does not share your goal above and wants/expects something different, but he's not able to really give you a blueprint for what he wants from you.

2) You are bothered by how your H treats you, you feel he fails at "basic civility". Nothing you've done has been effective at changing this. If you make things *really* bad, H will do the minimum to bring things back up, but then relapses as soon as you take the pressure off.

3) You are married to someone you just fundamentally don't respect, which makes it almost impossible to be motivated to work on the marriage. Your goal is to improve your co-habitation situation, not to repair your marriage to the standard folks on this board seem to think you want.

Do I have that right? If so, you're in a very difficult situation and I feel for you. You must feel trapped.

A few more questions for you:

1) Do you feel you really know what H wants from the marriage? Would he be happy with less acrimonious co-habitation, or does he want a fairy tale marriage? Have you discussed this ever, or have you figured it out on your own?

2) Have you told H where you are in this marriage and what your plan is going forward? Have you shared your goal with him?

3) Have you considered the "brutal honesty" approach with him? Just lay it all on the table? How do you think he would react? Would it be better longer term if you did that?

I may be wrong but I get the impression you're caught in a dance where H doesn't understand just how far gone you are, and you haven't been telling him. This missed understanding and conflict of goals seems to have you caught in a cycle that keeps repeating.

Although it would have been hard for me to hear, I would have liked W to put everything on the table when she was so down on the marriage that she had an affair. I believe people always want to know where they stand, and to have their expectations set. Put it out there and give him the opportunity to deal with it.

Accuray

[Crazyville]

Very well said, Accuray!!! Right on the mark!

The only exception is that I would love to improve the marriage, but it seems impossible from where I'm standing. Plus, I have to get by the daily ugly before I can even imagine what that would look like. I can't discuss the sexual moves that would drive my H wild, for example, when right now I don't even want to touch him.

I believe I have been brutally honest with him. I've even had separation papers drawn up, but he threatened to get really ugly about it and I didn't want to put S through that. He says he wants something different (Norman Rockwell), but he doesn't seem to be able to get past "his" wants in the marriage to even consider mine. He wants to have it but not do what's necessary to get it. Another quote from the book regarding the distancer when the pursuer stops prusuing: "This desperation is also generated by self-deception -- the expectation that the distancer can get more out of a relationship than he puts into it." I believe he's at that stage, where he's still trying to hold on to a self-beneficial, non-reciprocal relationship.