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#2227151 - 03/03/12 01:36 PM Re: When it's a one-way street...part 3 [Re: Crazyville]
sandi2 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 10710
CV, when I read you expressing your feelings and trying to be understood, it sure makes me think of myself. Our stitch is not the same but I can see myself in you (hope you won't be insulted). I really do understand how you feel about a lot of things in your stitch.

You really are strong to continue to stay on the board when you are so frustrated b/c you aren't getting what you are seeking. So much of your responses are actually you defending yourself, and trying to explain why you feel like you do. And, I can see myself when you try to tell what it is like living with your H. You may not receive the exact advice as I did, but I see a lot of the same thing happening.

I went through a very long stretch of time that I felt like some members were picking me apart to see what was wrong with me. Some would ask questions that I felt I'd have to take a college course before I knew how to answer. Truthfully, I did not know how to answer some things. I admire how well you write and can hold your own with whatever kind of post hits you.

In my case, I didn't see the point of a lot of what they were trying to do. I felt as if I were on trial and I was not being heard. That caused even more frustration. People thought I was mad, hard-hearted, and a few more things. I continued to try and tell them the negative things about my H, but I didn't feel that I received much help there. Part of that problem was b/c I was not in the right state of mind to receive some things I was told.

I think the bottom line was that I had to do one of two things. I either had to make the choice to accept him the way he is and to not expect him to make changes. The other choice was to leave.

Well of course, I wanted him to make changes! And, the more LBS's told me I was the one who needed to change, the more angry I became. So, as I've said before,I think I really understand how you feel.

It must be terrible living in a M for the sake of your child. My children were grown, but then I had grandchilden to consider. As one wise WAW
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

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#2227173 - 03/03/12 02:57 PM Re: When it's a one-way street...part 3 [Re: sandi2]
sandi2 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 10710
Oh crud! I hit the submit button before I was through.

So anyway, I think I was saying that a wise WAW had painted a picture of what life would be like for my grandchildren seeing their grandparents D. I really resented it at first. I was tired of always having to live a certain way for the sake of others. I was tired of DBing telling me that I needed to change. Who was telling my H to change? Nobody!

Thing was......it was my choice. Nobody was forcing me.

I think you are very tired of being the one who has tried to save the M, and now some folks think you should still take responsibility of the M. You have been the one who has worked to have a healthy R with a man who apparently doesn't care to even treat you with common courtesy. I have been appalled at some things you've told about him doing, and I would tell myself that there's no way I'd put up with him. But, the point is....it's not my M, and he's not my H. It's not my life. It's your choice to put up with him. If you can't bear his unkindness, his bad manners, being inconsiderate, selfish, and all the other things that are bad, then you make your decision based on those facts. If he is preventing you from being happy and is changing you into something you don't like, then make your decision based on those facts. If there are other issues, then base your decision on that. But it is your choice, and you have that freedom. (I know you know this. :))

That is not what you were seeking when you came here. But, the truth is....we can't tell you how to change him. If there was a way....I would be the first to inform you! wink Some may try to suggest what you can do in order to try and make changes. But it always sounds like you are the one expected to do the the changing.

I'm going to be painfully honest here, okay? If I had been younger, I don't know if I could have made the same decision. Mostly b/c of the frame of mind I had at the time, I think I felt like I was sacrificing to stay in the M. Honestly, it took quite some time for me to see things on better terms. Today, I am glad I stayed.

If your H will not listen to reason, and won't change the things that hurt you, then you need to make a choice based on those facts. If your lack of respect is greater than your tolerance, then make your decision based on that fact.

If there is hope, no matter how small, that things will get better, then you need to consider making a decision based on that hope.

If your faith is stronger than his weaknesses, then consider making a choice based on your faith.

If you have enough love that can accept all of his faults (big and little), and not hold him accountable for falling short of your expectations, then you need to consider making a decision based on that love.

My dad told me something I've never forgotten. You can withstand anything your M faces....if you have enough love.

So, as simple as it sounds, it's often the hardest to do.

I haven't given you anything you don't already know. But, I just wanted you to know that I hear you.....and I understand. I understand how angry and resentful you feel, and you have every right to feel that way. Based on my experience, things did not get better until I was able to get past the resentment. I had a lot of years built up!

I had to exercise the act of forgiving. I'm not sure this was the advice given to me as a WAW. Most people thought I was very lucky to have a H who would forgive me. But I had to forgive him of a lot of things in the past that was impossible to go back and change history. I learned that forgiveness is letting go of that resentment. And, it didn't come easy for me. But, I think it was probably the first step in healing the MR.

CV, I think you have a lot to contribute to LBS's here. You seem to be well educated and you have the POV of a WAW. In helping others, it may help to heal some of your pain. I have learned so much from the LBS. They have taught me about my own H through their personal pain.
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

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#2227373 - 03/04/12 11:41 AM Re: When it's a one-way street...part 3 [Re: sandi2]
Crazyville Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/12
Posts: 1046
Thanks for stopping in, Sandi! Really!

When I went back to the beginning of your posts from some years ago and read through them, I was completely relating to what you were posting, too. I said that I'm thankful that I don't have the OM pulling on me too, because I'm not sure I would be able to give him up and go back. I give you credit for being able to do that.

I do appreciate what people are offering. And it is frustrating at the same time. I hear what they are saying and I'm trying to apply it and it isn't fitting well. It feels like I'm being told to put a square peg in a round hole and I just don't understand how I'm supposed to do that.

I would say that I want to save my M, because I don't want all the ramifications of a D. That is not the same as wanting the M. Your H had a LOT of stuff in your history that I'm not sure I could have taken/forgiven either.

Yet I've read on one of your posts recently that you said you would be devastated without him now.

How do you get to that point without your H changing??? How do get there from here?

From my side of things, I can coexist, probably indefinitely, just by avoiding him as much as possible and GAL of my own. I need to know how to WANT to invest in him, to want to sacrifice for him. I know the things to do to make him happy, I just don't know how to want to do them. ("Gee, H, you want to help yourself to food off my dinner plate? Sure, here, have the whole thing. Enjoy!")
_________________________
Me:49 WAW H:59
T:19.5 M:19
S:13

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#2227497 - 03/04/12 08:48 PM Re: When it's a one-way street...part 3 [Re: 2thepoint]
oldtimer Offline
Member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 4474
"It just seems that anyone and everyone is more valued/fun/entertaining/lovable/important/etc. than me."

THIS is what is about being raised in a hypercritical manner.

And, just because you don't punch walls doesn't mean being imperfect has less severe effects on you.

Perfectionist tendencies are all about feelings of inadequacy, trying to be good enough, ensuring that neither you nor any significant other will be good enough. THIS is what to change for your own sake, which may or may not help your M.

Right now you can't tell if:

(1) Your H believes "anyone and everyone is more valued/fun/entertaining/lovable/important/etc. than me."

or
(2) YOU believe that and project it on others.

or
(3) a combination of (1) and (2)

But, if it were just coming from H and not from you, you'd not have put up with it for so long. People who haven't previously internalized such thoughts themselves don't stay in R's that lead them to feel that way.

So, that leaves (2) or (3), and until you stop hurting yourself with your perfectionism, you can't tell which.

BTW, you seem to have odd views about forgiveness.

We forgive others for trespassing against us, for doing something wrong. So, forgiveness means that the other person did something WRONG, not that what they did was acceptable. Forgiveness is in no way an endorsement of objectionable behavior. Forgiveness involves moving forward, it does not involve moving forward blindly. Forgiveness is not weak, but comes from a place of personal strength and compassion.

But you seem to feel that holding onto bitterness, anger, and disdain is the only thing to do without saying "it's ok to treat me like crap."

Very hard, stuck, dark place. It's ok to let go of those feelings without giving the mistreatment a thumbs up. It is very important to get that.
_________________________
Best,
Oldtimer

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#2227498 - 03/04/12 08:50 PM Re: When it's a one-way street...part 3 [Re: Crazyville]
sandi2 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 10710
Quote:
Yet I've read on one of your posts recently that you said you would be devastated without him now.

How do you get to that point without your H changing??? How do get there from here?


You know, it's kind of funny, but I've seen other women who would put up with things from their H's that I would never even consider putting up with. On the other hand, I've been told by a couple of women that they couldn't put up with my H!

As you know, my road was very long and I sure didn't win any blue ribbons at the speed I traveled. Since my H would not consider going to anyone for counseling, then the board was my counseling session, which could be rough at times. I had some good folks to help me, and then I had some I could have done without. smirk Sometimes I wanted to scream at them and tell them those things they were suggesting would not work with my H! They did not understand my situation. I guess I kind of felt like you talking about using the square peg for a round hole.

Our H's may be different, and our stitch may be different, but I see that we share similar feelings. I came here as a last resort, and maybe you did too. I think you said it right when you wrote this in your first thread:

Quote:
trying to decide if there really is any hope afterall, trying to decide if I really care if there is.


That's a pretty good description of how I felt, also. I was such a mess that I don't think I even knew what I was looking for here on the DB board. Like you, I felt I had already tried everything I knew to do to have a better MR.....years ago. So, I think it's safe to say I was searching for somebody who could say something to make me care.

IDK, maybe I wanted to be told it was okay to run off with OM. shocked Even after I decided to stay in my M, it would make me mad for some LBS to defend my H (lol) when they didn't even know him! And besides, I think I wanted somebody to see what all I had done that was right and what he did that was wrong. You know that show "Everybody Loves Raymond"? That was how it was with my H! Everyone loves him and he's always the good guy and I'm the bad one. So, over the years I really resented that. I had to be the bad guys with our kids b/c he would not discipline them! No matter what the circumstance, he came out smelling like a rose and I came out smelling like poop!

So, I kept on trying to explain to people around here how hard it was living with him and nobody took me seriously! At least, that's how I felt at the time.

You came here looking for solutions, and steps, and workable plans. And, like me....you keep trying to explain how things really are with your H.

So, I'm looking at your questions to me and wondering how I can give you a solid, satisfying answer. "How do you get there from here?" Here's how I had to think at the time back then. It's not exactly how I think now, and if I forget to come back and explain, let me know.

I had to realize he would never be better. He was nearing retirement and he would never climb the "success ladder" any higher. He would never please me in how he kept the back yard, and he would continue to bring junk home to add to his other junk. He would always take all day to think about what he was going to do that day. He would never be the great handyman like my neighbor. He would not measure up in to my father, in my eyes. He would never open open up and talk to me the way I wanted him to, b/c he didn't know how. Neither would he give me the emotional intimacy I wanted b/c he apparently didn't know how to do that either. In other words, he would never change! I really didn't have any hope in him making any kind of change.

Like it or not, it was something I had to decide if I would live the rest of my life with those conditions, or leave. It was not an easy task. It was like you said:

Quote:
I don't want all the ramifications of a D.


I felt there were other things at stake, just as you do. I know this is getting long, so I won't go into all that. I was trying to find enough reasons to stay in the M. Could I find more reasons to stay than leave? Doesn't work that way. But before I could much of anything, I had to make that decision. Once I did, then I was just here ...no more no less....just a body that was here. So much healing had to take place. And, I'm talking about healing for me! I can only imagine how much for my H, since I was the one who betrayed his trust.

The healing road was rough. It didn't come easy and it wasn't short. I was so "done" with everything that I could hardly get out of bed every day. Part of that was my physical condition (which I won't get off into, but you may have read about it) but most of it was my mental attitude. In the past, my H had used those two words to me so much, I hated it with a passion! However, I didn't have the right attitude and didn't know how to change it. Let me say that dfferently. I didn't want to change it bad enough. I prayed all the time that God would help me. He did, but it didn't come in the time or the way I wanted.

Ever so slowly, as I began reading from the LBH's, I began to understand my own H a little better. And since he didn't know how to reveal that to me, it helped to read it from others. I began to see how I must have been seen in his eyes for a long time.

The place that may be different for you and me is that I had to reach a place where I felt humility. I think I had put myself up on such a high pedestal that my H didn't stand much chance in rising up to meet me on my level. You would have thought that after I strayed, I'd have fallen off that high pedestal, but I didn't. In face CV, I had to actually pray that I would feel bad about what I had done, instead of feeling justified. When the shame begin to hit, well it nearly killed me. Forgiving myself has been the hardest thing I've ever done. Strange, I've never doubted my H's forgiveness,but I've wondered if I really forgiven myself.

My lesson here, I hope, is it finally came to me that if my H could forgive what I had done, then why couldn't I forgive him? If he could give me his trust again, then why would I hold on to all that resentment I had against him?

Oh yes, it took a long time before I let go of everything. But, I discovered that my resentment had turned to bitterness and some other bad names, and it was making me a prisoner. I didn't know if I'd ever be happy in my M or not, but I knew for sure I'd never be happy with all that cr@p in my heart.

I remember telling my H that I hadn't set out to hurt him when I met the OM and had an EA. But I think it was about two years before I could bring myself to tell him I was sorry. Don't you know that our M never stood a chance as long as I danced around trying to avoid that?

My H really is a good man! He has the best heart of any person I have known. My problem was that he didn't do like I wanted. Maybe I had good reason to feel like I did toward a lot of things, but what I've learned about M, is that most of it is forgiving. Some people say they "overlook" the faults of their S's, but that's just a word for forgiveness. I doubt a day goes by that my H doesn't forgive me for somelittle offense. After all, I'm not perfect. grin I hope not, but I'm sure there are many. I have learned that if we forgive the smaller offenses as we go...then the larger ones are not quite as hard as it would be otherwise.

To sum this up (and I know you're glad-ha), we don't forgive b/c they deserve it. Your H doesn't deserve your forgiveness! He may not ever be able to make up for what he's done. He probably won't try. Forgiveness is a choice. I hope that doesn't set wrong with you. B/c I really hope you can get this. He doesn't deserve it nor can he earn it, only you can give it to him. When you are able to do that, then it frees the resentment and all the other things that were eating you up.

As I see it, a M has to have forgiveness and acceptance to survive. Most people think it's love! wink Here's the thing, the loving feelings will come after those other feelings have left. Forgiving and accepting him will be the key to finding those feelings you thought were long gone. I'm not saying you should accept his bad behavior, or bad treatment of you, so don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say. Sometimes I've had people to take that as me saying they should be a meek mouse, or doormat type, but I would never suggest sucking it up to a S who continues to show the same bad behavior over & over again. For me, I had to accept the fact that my H would never be or do like all those things I mentioned back in the beginning of this long post, and more. That's the accepting part. That is what has been a big step for me. I believe in a gal being spunky, but I had carried it to a whole new level.

I hope this didn't sound mushy-gushy, but that's what it took for me to get from there to here without my H changing. I will admit that he responds to me a lot better these days. Maybe it's due to my mental attitude, IDK. But at least he doesn't bring it up any more. grin

And, yes I would be totally devastated if anything bad happened to him. I love him with all my heart. There was a time I didn't know if I could ever say that again.

I feel that I have left a lot out that I meant to say, but this post is pages too long. I want you to know that if I had been told what I just told you.....I doubt it would have been welcomed. Reason being, mostly b/c it took so long before I was receptive to it. Also, I felt there had to be so much "more" and what were the steps, etc. For me, it was not so simple, but it worked.

((CV))
_________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!

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#2227559 - 03/04/12 11:47 PM Re: When it's a one-way street...part 3 [Re: Crazyville]
25yearsmlc Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 10263
Loc: west coast
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
Quote:
I see that could actually be much more powerful in your "choice to be a WAS" than originally anticipated.

I thought I read that you got over it. Obviously, you are attached to a belief that your H would rather be with someone else, so you decided to leave FIRST. To be fair, I am not saying that you are being mean or bad. I am just saying that is how it can look to an outside observer.


fwiw, I don't think you are "over it" at all, and I say that without any judgement attached. I am curious as to why you'd say, or believe, that you are over it though.

What makes you think so? Is it possible you think it'd look weak or unforgiving, to not be "over it"? If so, why?


Sorry if I wasn't clear. It's what I was trying to say when I said forgiveness doesn't take away the fact that now you KNOW something, and knowing it changes everything.

Without knowing what you are forgiving, well...what are you forgiving? Of course knowing something is harder than not knowing if not knowing means you still retain hope but my "issue" with this statement of yours, suggests that it's easier to forgive if you do not know.

My question is, if you do Not know something happened, what's to forgive?
You must "KNOW" something in order to forgive it, and sure
yes, knowing may change things - but so does forgiveness.


OW wasn't the only instance. This has been a pretty consistent message throughout our M.

does this^^^ mean he's had other EAs or PAs? OR that the message is consistent to you?

There's a big difference for me. In the former case, it suggests a pattern and not a fluke, or aberration.

In the latter case, it MIGHT be your perception that needs changing. At least it's possible.


It just seems that anyone and everyone is more valued/fun/entertaining/lovable/important/etc. than me. It's not so much a matter of leaving FIRST, but more a matter of not having a reason to stay.

BUT!! We're back to talking about H's actions. That's not good.


actually we are talking about how YOU FEEL, and that matters. It is why you are here.

And it is something you can work on IF you want to. If I thought you could make significant changes in your behavior and attitude towards your h -

and that he'd still not change an iota, I would be shocked and maybe not too supportive of your efforts.

But I have seen too many marriages change, w/ both partners, to believe it's impossible. IMO, when one person changes consistently over time. the other tends to change as well.

Why? B/c as you probably know, the more secure a spouse feels, the more loved they feel, the more loving they become.

Meanwhile, as you make the changes to loving him more fully, (if you do choose that)

the more loving you FEEL and that's NOT bad.

If you feel "This is unfair" the whole time you are supposedly being more loving,

then it can't work. I hope this makes sense.


_________________________
m:51 H:55
M: 30 yrs
S25,D23,D15
H goes ALASKAN, solo,2005
I file Sep 2/06
Piecing 7/07
Retrovaille Weekend 8/08
M Restored 8/08

Be Happy OR be "Right"

FORGIVENESS: Your way out of hell

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#2227569 - 03/05/12 01:16 AM Re: When it's a one-way street...part 3 [Re: Crazyville]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
Originally Posted By: Crazyville
I need to know how to WANT to invest in him, to want to [b]sacrifice]b] for him.


I would warn ANYONE to be very, very careful about following a path of sacrifice.

True sacrifice is an act of unconditional love.

True sacrifice is not a selfish act, it is a selfless act.

At risk of using language of judgement here, I have witnessed very few pure acts of sacrifice.

My opinion is, DO NOT SACRIFICE YOURSELF, unless you are able to do so without expectations and without resentment due to unfulfilled expectations.

That would be unfair to yourself and to your S.

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#2227571 - 03/05/12 01:57 AM Re: When it's a one-way street...part 3 [Re: sandi2]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
So much of what Sandi2 stated in her last post I feel is so relevant. As much as I'd love to quote and stress many of the points I noticed from my perspective of her post, I wanted to mention just a few:

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I had to realize he would never be better. He was nearing retirement and he would never climb the "success ladder" any higher. He would never please me in how he kept the back yard, and he would continue to bring junk home to add to his other junk. He would always take all day to think about what he was going to do that day. He would never be the great handyman like my neighbor. He would not measure up in to my father, in my eyes. He would never open open up and talk to me the way I wanted him to, b/c he didn't know how. Neither would he give me the emotional intimacy I wanted b/c he apparently didn't know how to do that either. In other words, he would never change! I really didn't have any hope in him making any kind of change.


I have not doubt that is how my W feels about me. The difference between her and sandi2 (and possibly yourself) is that my W hasn't made any decision to accept the above and still stay together. Without knowing that I can change and I can be more of what she would like, still be true to myself, and still not be exactly what she wants, but could certainly (in her eyes) a better version of myself...

I feel this is so very important to wholly accept, especially for a WAS to turn around, as well as for an LBS (of their WAS) to start making the positive changes in themselves. The LBS makes a decision (in some form) that they will "fix" themselves and stand and rebuild an R with their spouse, even if their spouse never changes.

I suppose the difference is in some ways just semantics. The LBS would not see that as sacrifice.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
...my H had used those two words to me so much, I hated it with a passion!


I think the above is great, because often the WAS will say outright, or follow the ILYB speech with having "lost that loving feeling" and/or "I don't feel passion" in regards to the M... yet... it is quite certain that there is passion... it just happens to be of the negative kind...

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Maybe I had good reason to feel like I did toward a lot of things, but what I've learned about M, is that most of it is forgiving. Some people say they "overlook" the faults of their S's, but that's just a word for forgiveness.


Wow, that is a very powerful statement.

When we aren't keeping score, life (and R's) are often a constant (yet subtle or unstated) serious of forgiving.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Forgiveness is a choice.


I feel that is such a great summary.

You don't have to forgive. You may not feel your H deserves your forgiveness and as sandi2 says, he may not deserve your forgiveness.

That is neither right nor wrong.

Your choice, whatever it ends up being, will not be right or wrong.

It will simply be a choice. And once you make that choice, you can move forward... you have everyone's right in life... that of the freedom... of choice...

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#2227579 - 03/05/12 03:47 AM Re: When it's a one-way street...part 3 [Re: Crazyville]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
You are getting some great help and support from so many top posters. That's a great sign, because when those vets are focused on someone, it often leads to great breakthroughs (as it's a sign that there's hope and belief that you will get your "lightbulb" moment, soon).

So much to go back on in your threads and if anything appears to have been forgotten, it will likely come back in new posts, anyhow.

I did want to touch on this, quick:

Originally Posted By: Crazyville
I am interested to hear your feedback, to hear what I'm supposed to do to somehow offset H's fantasy.


Remember how I mentioned that men can be (read: ARE) dumb as stumps when it comes to women?

It's pretty simple. More often than not, men want what they are told (or more generally think) they can't have.

And those men who get what they were told they can't have? It's because they rose up and did what they needed to do.

A woman gets what she wants when she pretends she doesn't want it (him).

The trick is to be you in a way that he can't have you, while knowing in your heart that you want him and believe that he will do what it takes to have you, without compromising who he sincerely is, while you are planted firmly in being true to yourself and fully available to him, if he'd stop running around like his head was cut off.

IOW: It's not a game of tactics and manipulation. He can HAVE you, but NOT OWN you. It's almost an evolutionary thing that when a man finally stops chasing what he wants... he finally realizes he already has it, he just has to step up... and into it...

This will be explained better when you've progressed to a point where you are ready for this course of action.

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#2227597 - 03/05/12 07:18 AM Re: When it's a one-way street...part 3 [Re: ~ kd ~]
Accuray Offline
Member

Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 2088
Sandi,

Just wanted to say I really appreciated your two latest posts here. So very meaningful for me. My MC told me that I face the same choice now that you did then. Accept that W will never change, will never provide what I have believed I need from this marriage. If I cannot accept, then I need to leave. Reading how you went through that and how you thought about it was very helpful.

Accuray
_________________________
Married 18, Together 20
M: 45, W: 47, D: 15, S: 13, D: 9
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
ILYBINILWY (again) 7/12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014

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