WHG: And Alice goes down the rabbit hole...

[2thepoint]

...but you know it is going to get better as you make a life for yourself independent of your WAS. And as you are doing this, the dynamic of your R will change and maybe, just maybe......

but no guarantees....

[Ctflor]

I don't quite know how to word this, without it coming across wrong.

What would your W do, if you suddenly said... "Hey, got a change in plan, I have to be at xyz, tomorrow night, therefore, can't take the kiddos, see them on my next scheduled time."

What I'm trying to say here is, she has every thing worked out to her advantage. She has her nights out set, her times, her life all planned out because she CAN.

She is in constant contact with you, and knows that she can be when she wants to be. She's comfortable, and riding this on her terms. It seems that your terms, connect with and surround her terms. I realize you guys must work together for the kids, I'm just talking about things outside of this.

I hope I didn't come across as rude, I'm just saying this from what I observe. I know that only a percentage of things that go on, go in a post around here, so I'm sorry if I'm wrong. I've BTDT with my first XH. It was really tough.

[Ctflor]

2thepoint, I guess that is what I was trying to say. She needs to see him as an autonomous, independent, free guy out there who is embracing his new life and enjoying it. Act as if. I'm not saying this is simple, it is not. This is how DB-ing worked for me, in the sense that I started to act as if, i'm free, i'm independent, i'm coming and going on my terms, I don't schedule everything around my H's schedule.....I can be happy without him, I can go on. I said "Act as if" because inside I was totally a wreck and in the worst pain ever. He started to miss me, when I made myself unavailable.

The key word being unavailable. Unavailable to text, to email, to anything that did not concern our child we have together. I did not set my schedule, to necessarily make his life easy either. I popped up a few times here and there challenging his "alone times". The way I saw it is this.... if he was planning on leaving me, he'd have to make time for his D anyway, may as well get on with it and let me go on with my life. I don't know if that makes sense but all of these tactics of being unavailable and the feeling that I was shaking loose from him, made him start to open his eyes.

[oldtimer]

WHG,

Do everything you possibly can to give W more space than she wants. You made excuses not to do it while she was still at home. The best thing you can do for yourself and your son is to start doing it now.

[workinghardguy]

Well the weekend has been pretty hard to be honest. On Friday I finally had another IC appointment. It was good... we discussed a lot. I'm struggling right now because so much of who I am is tied up in being a father and a husband. And I know, "I'm always a father" but when your kids are somewhere else that's like saying a baseball player is a baseball player in the off-season. Sure he is, but he's not playing.

I miss my kids so much it's terrible. Friday night I called my W's house to talk to them. It's frustrating because I want to give my W space, but then she doesn't let me. I called the "house phone" which she specifically set up so I could call the kids without bothering her. Who answers? My W. All the kids were right there. She could've had them answer it, she's done it in the past. But no she answers.. I wasn't actually prepared for a convo with her. She asked if I wanted to talk to the kids (um.. yes, hence I'm calling their phone) and that she had to go do something but it would only take a few minutes and then we could talk when I'm done with kids.

So I talk to the kids. Get done and she's not back. SS asks me if he should go find her and I say no, tell him I love him and will see him in the morning and then hang up. Then I got guilty (this is where I still suck at this)... so I text my W saying I had to go but was it something important about the kids that she wanted to discuss. She texts back no, and so I don't respond or call back.

Yesterday I picked up SS for our volunteer thing. Saw W briefly as I went in to help SS put on his uniform for the first time. Gave me a chance to give SD and S some hugs and kisses briefly. S gave me so many while telling me, "Wait Daddy I have to give you extra because I miss giving you them so much!" Have I mentioned how much I hate this sitch?

Took SS to our volunteer gig and dropped him off back home. Didn't go in or see W, just dropped him off and left. He had a great time and got to go on a two-hour airplane flight so he was pretty happy

Spent the rest of yesterday trying to put my house back together. Buying furniture and supplies, etc... Last night I really wanted to call and talk to the kids, but I'm not sure it's good to do every night, so I didn't, especially considering how it went Friday night. I can't give my W space if I'm calling her every day. But I'll be honest that I feel terribly guilty about not calling. Guess we'll see the reaction from the kids.

This morning is church, and this afternoon I pick all the kids up to spend the afternoon and dinner with them, and then have S overnight with me. I'm going out of town for a week so I asked to have some time with them today.

The "Act as if" advice is the part I'm struggling with. I'm not happy, in fact I'm still devastated. I haven't been this depressed in a very long time, if ever. Even when my dad passed it was more of a final relief to a long degenerative illness so while sad there was relief too.

..but you know it is going to get better as you make a life for yourself independent of your WAS. And as you are doing this, the dynamic of your R will change and maybe, just maybe......

That's the struggle right now. I really don't want this life. It's like the consolation prize. Academically I know it's my only real option. I can lead and build a worthy life without her since I don't get to decide whether she's part of it or not. But I don't want to emotionally. I don't know when that feeling changes or turns, I just hope it's soon. I'll tell you, I'm so tired of feeling like this.

CT - We have a fairly defined and agreed upon schedule. I'm not sure I want to just violate that agreement without good reason. I know things will never be perfect. This week W is taking S an extra night because I'm out of town. I don't have to do the kids while she's working thing, but then I give up almost any real time with SS and SD. So it's a trade off.

So for now I have to keep "act as if" in the front of my mind. Except for kid-stuff I haven't contacted or talked with W since Thursday. And I don't feel that I've used the limited kid-stuff as a reason to make contact that wasn't necessary.

One item I'd really like some thoughts on....
My brother is having a hard go of it. He got divorced last year. He's been living with his ex-BIL (from his first marriage). His ex-BIL has been separated from his W as well, but now the W is planning to move back in. This leaves my brother without a place to live. He's thinking about moving this way (across the state) towards my mom and his daughter (who lives with our mom and goes to college).

He'd like to room with me in my house. Now... I know that many will say, what's the question? Understand my brother and I are close but not "brotherly close". He was the first foster child my parents took in and eventually adopted. So we don't have the "traditional brotherly" R.

With that said, my first instincts were to welcome him in. Lord knows I have the room and could use some help with the house payment. It would also be a good chance to reconnect with him and get closer. Plus it would be nice to have someone else living here besides just S and I. And he's a good guy, just down on his luck right now.

My first instinct is to say yes to him living here. But I worry what message that sends to my W about coming back. Then I think about why the heck do I care what she thinks? I guess just don't trust my internal voice right now... any input or thoughts are appreciated.

[purgatory]

With that said, my first instincts were to welcome him in. Lord knows I have the room and could use some help with the house payment. It would also be a good chance to reconnect with him and get closer. Plus it would be nice to have someone else living here besides just S and I. And he's a good guy, just down on his luck right now.

My first instinct is to say yes to him living here. But I worry what message that sends to my W about coming back. Then I think about why the heck do I care what she thinks? I guess just don't trust my internal voice right now... any input or thoughts are appreciated.

I think you answered your own question

But I completely understand not trusting your own instinct during this sitch. I sometimes feel like I need advice on whether I should wear the black shirt or the pink one (just an example of something silly) b/c I question everything I do lately!! If you let your brother move in- and I think you SHOULD- your W may see this as you creating a life without her, and possible make her stop and think... but she also might not care.

You have to make a decision that is best for *you* and only you. Do you hope that she will have a reaction to this? You probably hope that in some way, she will think "well, I can't come home now b/c he has his brother living with him." But that thought is giving into the assumption that she *wants* to come back, which you haven't had any indication of (I'm sorry if that was painful to read, I didn't like writing it.) If you live with no assumptions and no expectations, than I think your choice is easy. Having your brother around will be good for both of you, you'll have company in the house, a new person to GAL with and a chance to develop that 'brotherly bond' that you said was lacking.

Not sure of your faith/beliefs, but I am a believer that your higher power puts people in our path to help guide up to the next curve in the road... you may not know it when it happens, but down the road you will probably look back and realize it was for the best. I know that there are many examples of this currently in my life and my sitch. Having this opportunity come to you, could be because you both need healing and for what ever reason, you too have the capacity to help each other right now to get onto the next step in your life.

Heck, if he moves in and someday your W mentions 'not being able to move back in' than at least you'll know that she's considered it! Just b/c he moves in now, doesn't mean it's permanent. Perhaps he just needs a few months to get his feet back under him.... and since you area wise DBer, you can share this information with him to get him there.

Perhaps you'll find your answer in a song or message today at church

[workinghardguy]

Do you hope that she will have a reaction to this?

Nope. That actually hadn't entered my mind. My first thought was that family helps family. Second was that we're both BITSs (literally!) so it might be good for both of us. Third was it would be good for my GAL. Only after all that did I think about would it send a message I don't want sent to my W.

But that thought is giving into the assumption that she *wants* to come back, which you haven't had any indication of

Wasn't hard to read, in fact it was good. I think that's one of the things I'm struggling with right now. Earlier in the week (Mon, Tue) we had a lot of interaction. During those times I listened to a lot of unhappiness from her:

• Moving was "absolutely horrible". No one showed up to help except her stepdad.
• She hates renting and her landlord doesn't like her and vice versa.
• Stuff keeps breaking and she doesn't have the money to replace or fix.
• At night when the kids are gone or asleep she feels so alone and lonely. It's hard in a big, quiet house with just herself and her thoughts.
• Getting three kids ready for school is nuts all by yourself.

Now me... if I don't like something I change it. And all week I've had running in my head that if you're so unhappy then why are we doing this? Why not just come back?

But of course, as your statement said, none of those said she wants to come back, only that she's dissatisfied with how things are for her. But dissatisfaction with her current state does not equal wanting to be with me. And all week that's been where my head is at. So thank you for pointing that out.

Just an update from today because I think it's funny and hopefully others will too...

W and I discussed last week that I would not take S to church today and instead pick him up in the afternoon and keep him overnight since I'm gone all week next week. Then I asked to expand that to include SS and SD for the afternoon and evening (I'd have them overnight but don't have beds for them.. they're ordered but not here yet).

So this morning I get a text, a call, and a second call asking about picking S up for church (I missed the first text and call). I remind her of what we agreed and she remembers. I tell her it'll be around 2:30 or 3:00 that I get there. Earlier in the week she said I could have them as much as I want this weekend because she's trying to get her house set up and cleaned. While I'd like to get them earlier I specifically am not because making life easy on her is not my job.

So just now I get a text from her "Kids will be ready by 1. They are driving me crazy so the sooner you can get them the better for all of us. They aren't helping me at all and its starting to chap my a$$".

I reply with what they will need and that I will be there around 2:30 or 3:00. Here's the reply I get, "Ok, so later... awesome. That's a lot of help. I'll have them ready" (understand that this is absolutely cynical and her tone is that she's very pissed).

What the heck does she think? It's her weekend. Welcome to single mom with three kids land. And yes, it is taking all of my willpower not to drop everything and run over there to save her. My excuse would be that I'm "doing it for the kids" so that they don't have to deal with stressed out/angry mom, but it would really be to save her. To fill my role as fixer/caretaker again. To get that "high" from having her say thank you to me.

And as I sit here and type this I'm getting a little pissed off actually... she knows full well that this type of reply triggers my guilt and angst. That in the past I would fold like a deck of cards and do whatever to avoid her anger. She's manipulating me. I don't know if it's conscious or unconscious, but now that I'm conscious of it... well, it ticks me off.

[oldtimer]

WHG,

I'd talk to your IC about your brother. I agree the choice should not be contingent on W's possible reactions.

But, you are at an incredibly difficult moment in your life. Sharing a house with someone other than my spouse and child is a huge stress for me. Other people might find a sibling comforting. I love my sibs, but living with them would be difficult. So, I'm just suggesting that you carefully consider whether having brother with you would be a comfort and support, or stressful, or a mixture.

It is important that you take very good care of yourself right now. It is OK to do what is best for you right now. You need it and it is best for the kids.

Be gentle and compassionate toward WHG, then decide.

[oldtimer]

Ignore her darts. Really, totally ignore them. She'll stop throwing them if they don't hit the target.

Focus on the kids, being excited to get them, have a great time with them.

If she tries to start in on you when you get them, look at her like she's crazy and give her a buzzer noise with a smile. Then shoo the kids out into the car and say "see ya."

[2thepoint]

WHG - I posted this on your thread the other day but want to re-post again as I think it is very important for you to remember:

"When you talk about your W calling you to vent and asking for favors and other ridiculous stuff so she can do selfish things (i.e. party's and bikini waxes) I can't help but remember something you wrote several weeks ago abut your W's former H.

Something about when her car broke down, how he came to help her because he was in denial about the demise of their R and how your W sort of laughed at his desperation.

Don't let your W trap you into that type of behavior. Your W needs to realize that she has made her bed and needs to lie in it."