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hmmmm.... welp... didn't have that conversation.... grin

I figured I'd wait for her to bring it up. She still hasn't. No big deal. I realised I didn't need to have that convo, anyhow.

Settling into routine with kids. Doing some much needed catch up. D14 still in good relations although she's being 14 and her friends are more important than spending time with dear ol' dad... wink I'll figure that out, yet. Got some "tricks" up my sleeve. lol Been working on building a snow castle with D9. Well... I work... she watches... smile More bricks this weekend for it.

Was considering getting into a different car. Wanted a beemer but everything available is a little out of range. So have a line on a e320 benz. sweet.... smile

Back to full on job hunting next week.

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Interesting topic...... I feel guilty reading this. Oh well, would be a fool not to be seeing how some of you handle this part.


Me 57 XH 58 Sons age 32 & 27 M:32
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Thanks for popping by, Wendy... I would love to hear about how you feel guilty...

I suppose many of us who post during this stage do so both to help ourselves as well as to share with others in order to help them once they get to this point. I don't know "where" in any "DB map" I might be, but here is where I find myself and so here is where I do my own work. smile

By all means, I appreciate and respect all who stand for extended periods of time. We read them often on this board or see them IRL.

And on the other hand, it is not to look down on those who don't "stand" (as it might look to us, individually) as we are all entitled to our own choices.

I have come to a personal conclusion (in this case, I remember what I believed) that there is a "sweet spot" between pure intellectualism and pure faith. Even though they can appear so contradictory.

Intellect tells us: Do the work, see the results

Faith tells us: Surrender to a higher power, and all will be revealed.

I believe the most beautiful gifts of our time on this earth is witnessed when we do both...

In my language... in the way I have chosen to live my life, and I believe in many ways is the "DB Way", I call it stopping resistance. It is observable in action, everywhere with positive results. In DB parlance, it's called dropping the rope.

Nothing is ever over until we close our eyes for the last time. I have seen, time and again, opportunities that I have walked past, show up again in the future. I have seen many (possibly negative temptations) appear time and again... and in some cases, I have reached out to them (more than once) and they've stung me... What we take and how we grow (in a positive way) from our experiences is what I believe creates even greater opportunities and successes in our lives.

When we both do the work and have faith... we will find our success. Whether that be in our careers, our health, our spirituality and our families...

I would be a fool to think that my M is "right" and not be open to the possibility that my greatest successes will be as a single man. Or that there is actually someone else "out there" whom I passed by, completely oblivious that our paths would join or whom I have not yet met. Or further, that it is on this path, that all involved will find their most value, only to have our new, better selves re-united in a new, more healthy way.

I will always continue to do "the work" by what ever name it is called. And I will also continue to have faith that all will be revealed.

And in that, I know the future is fantastic, indeed... I KNOW this, completely...

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Nothing is ever over until we close our eyes for the last time.

Yes! And I also believe the future is fantastic. I just need to figure out how to get there.

I feel guilty for reading "I'm thinking of leaving".

Even though my H has been making it plain for more than a year that he plans to leave me. Yes, he has a million excuses why he hasn't. But in his mind OW is a better thing for him. A special person who he might lose.

And he goes back and forth, me or her. Her he loves, me I am the tie to his kids and grandkids. He opinions that I will take better care of him when he is old. Where as he may very well be pushing OW around in a wheelchair soon.

And I am one of those people who cannot pretend to be moving on. I have tried, but I just really am not good at it. Partly because H keeps going back and forth, and I fall for his saying we are staying together. I think things are working out, and then, boom, they aren't.

Why do I feel guilty? I must have some crazy expectation that I'm supposed to stay married. I must think I am bad if I give up. Maybe I want the man who can't make decisions to make some.

I do know I am super tired of putting so much time and thought into this R. I don't feel like myself. I feel so out of touch.

Maybe I just still think I can fix everything, because I always do. Huge part of the/our problems.

Thanks for saying you wanted to hear about how I feel guilty.

Wendy


Me 57 XH 58 Sons age 32 & 27 M:32
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And thanks for clarifying why you feel "guilty". smile

It took me a long time to admit and/or be willing to say "publicly" that I had been wanting out of the M for a long time. I said my vows and I planned on standing by them. And in doing so, I was standing by my W and my kids. There were a million reasons why I felt guilty for having that skeleton in my closet. And it wasn't important enough for me to bring up with my W, because it was something that I needed to work on in myself. It wasn't her job to make me happy, although I did resent not getting my LL tank filled.

I didn't need to stress her with it, but I certainly wasn't going to act on an impulse to leave the M or have an A, just because I wasn't happy. IDK, maybe that's a bit like a pure vanilla WAS... or the beginnings of one...

What I know now, is that I was "working on it" in a less than positive (win/win) manner. I didn't know what to do differently. Of course, the bomb put me in enough stress to figure out that I needed to do something different. Of course, by that time it was "too little, too late".

I truly believe that ILYBINILWY is a cop out. A way to soften a blow to someone that you don't really love. Because it's the right thing to say, especially now in a society that has really begun to embrace (the term) unconditional love. If you love someone, you will show it through loving actions. Not "lying, deceit and omissions" to soften the blow, which is often the method of a WAS.

I love my W, but I do not like that I felt less important than anyone who called the house or otherwise interrupted our personal or family time. I love my W, but I do not like that I felt she expected me to do everything she asked me to do. I love my W, but I do not like that I felt accused of not loving her. I love my W, but I do not like feeling like I am supposed to feel guilty for not doing everything my W asked of me. I love my W, but I did not like finding her in our marital bed, alone with another man, regardless of the circumstances. I love my W, but I do not like having that situation justified when I simply wanted an apology that it probably wasn't the best place to have a private conversation with another man. I love my W, but I did not like having her tell me that I was not welcome to join her and the kids when they went out for visits in 2010. I love my W, but I do not like that I feel she is not willing to work on the M or discuss what we can do to make it better. I love my W, but I do not like that some of my behaviours which could be described as character flaws that began to show up in myself, and which are fixable and not a definition of whom I am, are the basis for her saying she wants out of the M. I love my W, but I do not like that she made an executive decision to end the M, without discussing it with me.

I love my W and I am willing to listen to her and understand her frustrations in the M and work on things that I can which might have suggested to her that I did not love her.

I love my W, and I am in love with my W, and she is showing me that she does not want to be M, and I will accept that. I am willing to accept she is unwilling to work on the M.

I believe there is a big difference between wanting out of an M and being honest about it vs recognizing our spouse wants out of the M and accepting that and not resist it.

Rick89 posted recently about how a WAS is willing to take pretty much any action or statement of the LBS as verification for their choice. How a WAS will often suggest that while they don't want to give us "false hope", they don't want to make a rash decision and leave the M. Unfortunately, it is often revealed that this is simply the WAS being unwilling to leave the M until they have their exit strategy worked out and ready to go.

I really have no idea what my W wants. I do know by my definition, her actions show she wants out. I do know, that if she wants out, she would file D. So I can only guess that she still does not (consciously) know what she wants in regards to the M. What I know is, what I choose should not be dependent on what she (says she) wants. Yes, of course if she says and SHOWS she wants to work on the M, I would be open to it. But (who was it that said about choosing with their feet), my W has already "shown" me (and continues to show me) her choice by her actions.

What I do know (and this isn't said to be "righteous") is that I do love my W enough to let her go. For whatever reasons it may hurt me, my W, or my kids... it is the right thing to do. I believe I have shown my kids that it is important to fight for and work on an M. Now, I hope to show my kids what it means to "love someone enough to let them go".

What I don't know is whether I am a WAS who had karma kick him in the butt. What I don't know is, am I (now) a WAS who is justifying a choice. What I DO know is, I am willing to discuss and work on our M problems and that my W remains unwilling. And what I do know is, I am one more step closer to moving on.

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WOW Kaffe!

You wrote that the WAS doesn't want to leave the marriage until they have their exit strategy worked out. And all the rest is blah, blah, blah.

My H and OW got busted and I realized that is why they were so mad at me (!!!). I was supposed to buckle down and do all the work to get my house sold, then H could take his half of the money and D me. And I guess they could live happily ever after.

Boy was I going to be suprised!

I feel very much like I have been put on a shelf. My H has no desire to work on our M. He lies to me with no remorse. He acts nice, then crazy. It really hurts me that he has moved on so easily. I am resisting him wanting out of the marriage. And someone on this site said: What you resist, persists.

You say you love your W enough to let her go. To me that is hard. I think maybe we all want to be the WAS sometimes, trading those roles back and forth. Maybe Karma kicks us all in the butt now and then!

Kaffe, you sound like you have been through a lot. And have learned a lot. And by the way I don't view it as being one step closer to moving on. I view it as being pushed away a little at a time. And eventually we might find ourselves out the door.


Me 57 XH 58 Sons age 32 & 27 M:32
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It is unfortunate that as the WAS appears to deamonize the LBS during their exit, the LBS also deamonizes the WAS. The human characteristics and behaviours of a WAS, as that of describing the personality disorder traits of someone in MLC are things that could very likely be temporary and again, not a definition of whom the WAS or MLCer really is.

Having said that, it seems a common trait of a WAS to lie by omission. By not saying they are unhappy in the M and describing the reasons they are unhappy, but rather planning an exit strategy behind the back of the LBS, it can appear to be very deceitful and disrespectful of the LBS. The remorse may (or may not) come for the WAS at a later date.

It is hurtful to the LBS, without a doubt. And I think that a lot of the spew that we get when they are "outed" is based on them having to face the fact that they have objectified us. Whatever happens in the mind of the WAS, they (possibly unconsciously) appear to forget that there is another human being standing beside them whose feelings are being wrenched by their blind determination to find their happiness. In the same way that they will use phrases like "they're kids and are resilient and will bounce back from this".

Really, how human is that, that we do not want to hurt another human. When we sit into our cars, without a second thought that we are about to hurtle ourselves down a street in a vehicle weighing 3K lbs, pointed at other humans weighing a mere 5% of that... and we do not spare a thought that if the fail safes or our own disconnectedness from the driving process, we could severely harm another person. If we thought about that deeply, no one would ever drive.

They are no less human than we are. They don't want to think that they are hurting another human. They don't want to think they are being selfish. They don't want to think they are being irresponsible.

What we'll find in their language is very clear words that either hold them harmless or even victims or that (as I mentioned above) objectify their spouses and/or kids. Because they are human. The LBS can at times, appear to do the same.

I have found some solace and certainly some value, in empathizing with the WAS. That is a completely different bag of emotions there. I have to say I want to be neither WAS nor LBS... although it has been enlightening to see both sides.

So yeah, it is hard to lovingly let go. I don't think everyone must do so, if this is where their path leads. It is only something that I choose. I'm doing so, because I do not want to bitter in my D. I'm not completely done with any of the emotions, of course. I don't know if anyone ever really can be, until we close our eyes that last time. I am sure I will continue to learn things through this until I leave this earth.

I totally understand how it feels like we're being pushed out the door. And again, I view this as my personal choice on how I will exit, that rather than being pushed, I see the door and I move towards it in a way that works for me. In a way that is designed by me that hopefully will provide the most benefit for everyone involved.

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I must say the past few days have been odd for me. I can see the need to let my H go. Can't really hold on to what I haven't got. He has spent the last 3 weekends at OW's house. Most certainly he is showing where he would rather be.

I have stayed in the master bedroom, kind of a pi--ing contest between us, I realize.

I don't enjoy sleeping next to someone who would rather be somewhere else. I hate the fact that it is the only little bit of affection I get from him, a few minutes of snuggling, no sex, every morning and night. He acts likes he wants to hug me hello and good bye, but then pulls himself back. It is a million little things like that.

I am just so tired of being made to feel like a bother. If my H really does love OW, then who am I to stand in their way.

My H has been difficult to be around our whole marriage. I've made excuses for his childish behaviour, explained how 'shy' he is, I have bragged about his amazing abilities to fix or repair anything, I just may have made a mountain out of a molehill!

I can say I truely love him. But, yes, maybe to save him and me I need to lovingly let him go. Maybe OW will be just what he needs. They can take their Greta Garbo selves and go live in a cave together and spend the rest of their days watching TV and avoiding talking to people.

But the bottom line really is that I want and need a loving relationship. Not one where I feel like part of the furniture.

The hard part for me is how to do this lovingly. Do I just move back into the guest room while he is gone. Not say a word, just go dark? I haven't done anything legally, just spent an hour with a lawyer asking questions.

Let go, put the ball in his court and just go about my business? Let him file if that is what he wants?


Me 57 XH 58 Sons age 32 & 27 M:32
D final 9/12
Bought 10 Acres and Living the Dream!
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The LBS, aside from working through their own stuff and rebuilding their life around themselves, spends a lot of "hurry up and wait" time.

There's a point where a person has to make a clear, concise choice and move towards it in a completely transparent way.

Going dark is to protect us. Until we are able to build ourselves up to a place where our future is bright, regardless of the outcome, then we are likely to react to triggers on either side.

Choices sometimes seem like black and white things when the reality is they are more "grey" guidelines. And especially important to understand about choices is they can be modified or changed as necessary.

There has been moments over the past month where I felt that perhaps the tides were starting to change as my W has been much more pleasant with me. The stresses of me are likely to be fewer and further apart. And for those reasons, I wonder if maybe it is time to take another look.

But I'm not ready yet and there are still signs that my W would not be receptive to it, still.

Most important still, is what I want. I KNOW what I DO NOT want in my life.

Like you, Wendy... I DO NOT just want to be a possession in my W's life. Someone for my W to drag around with her, to be maid for her, to service her sexually if/when she wants, on her terms and on her whims. I still do not see that changing now or any time in the future.

Sometimes, waiting is not valuable. Sometimes, we get more value from making a choice and moving towards that choice. It does not have to be fast movement. It just has to be controlled change. That we continue to feel in control of our own destiny. Perhaps in the same way that our spouses want to feel they are in control of their own, and that we are not somehow the cause of their future.

Letting go lovingly is moving forward with our lives without bitterness or anger of the present, the past, and not allowing ourselves to project that bitterness and anger into the future. We need to let those emotions of our lives go.

Letting go and moving forward transparently might seem like we need to tell our spouses our intentions and then move towards that intention. It does not have to be that way. We can move forward, but simply be open and transparent verbally IF they ask what is going on. Our actions will be clear.

In your case Wendy, I would say don't move back into the guest bedroom unless you have truly made the choice to move on with your life, alone. Letting go lovingly does not mean moving to the guest bedroom to see if he will pursue.

Also, while "acting as if can be helpful (practice) for us", letting go lovingly really is being genuine when we tell them, "I understand you are unhappy in the M. I too, am unhappy. And I truly wish for us both to be happy and do not wish to stand in the way of that. I am moving on with my life."

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I am listening. I am pondering. I am trying hard not to laugh in yoga class when the instructor tells us to let go of things that are bothering us.

So today I did make some movements. I went out and did a bunch of errands, didn't tell him anything except that I was going to yoga when I left at 9:45 am. I got home at 5 pm. I had called him once with a boat part related question, so he knew I was working on the boat.

When I got home he carefully told me everything he did while I was gone. He asked how was yoga. I said okay. I didn't say anything else about my errands of today. He didn't ask.

Than he decided to go return a door. I didn't ask to join him, normally I love a trip to a home improvement store. Instead I gave him something else to return and went about the stuff I'm working on.

I have a pile of paperwork and another pile of quilting to keep me busy. I want to not be sitting around waiting on him. I want to be busy and making progress in life.

I stayed in the master bedroom. He acted annoyed, but didn't carry himself down to the guest room. I did realize I do something different now, than I did in years past. For the past few years, as this drama has been unfolding, I have started to sleep in more in the mornings.

I used to fire out of bed at 5:15 at the latest. Now I force myself to stay in bed, worried that I am waking him up. I am doing that as a 180, back to getting up when I wake up. I used to get more done in the morning than most people do all day.

I am pretty sure he actually complained more than once about me getting up so early. And sometimes he would come find me and ask me to come back to bed for sex. So this might be a huge example of me doing what doesn't work.

Okay, continuing to ponder stuff!

Thanks!


Me 57 XH 58 Sons age 32 & 27 M:32
D final 9/12
Bought 10 Acres and Living the Dream!
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