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#2215759 - 01/25/12 02:12 PM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: ~ kd ~]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
oops... not a peep since Mar/11... hasn't been THAT long... smile

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#2215879 - 01/25/12 07:31 PM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: ~ kd ~]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
crap... I haven't even had a chance to see if the grass is greener and have an A... frown

Well, not that there's any good news...

Yes, Poe... I guess I will pick up 5LL now and read it. I think I know what her LL is, and even if we end up D, I'm sure it will be a good resource for future R and family and stuff...

Yes 25, I am taking score... wink

jk... grin

Just to recap:

+ onus was on me to pick up D tab because W paid for SA, (I mostly, always said I didn't want either)
+ I wouldn't have to pick it up if she had just gone straight to D
+ She always said she wouldn't waste the money on SA, yet started the process only one month prior to being able to file D
+ We wouldn't have been in that predicament if I hadn't left the home
+ I wouldn't have left the home if she wouldn't have been part of that "incident" with her EA in our bed
+ That wouldn't have been a predicament if I'd figured out there was something wrong
+ I would have known there was something wrong if she hadn't shut down on me
+ She wouldn't have shut down on me if I hadn't shut down on her, first...

And so it goes...

Of course, the both of us can probably say we M for the wrong reasons. I have no idea why she liked me or M me. I have guesses and they aren't positive and they're moot at this time... we ARE Md...

Why did I M her? That's a good question. I don't have much, atm. I made a list for a counselor way back at the beginning of this. None of which were false. But they are probably things I could find attractive in ANYONE... My W couldn't come up with more than two items at the time... I'm feeling like that, right now...

Why am I going through this process? Well, my W responded to my email. Had a bunch of stuff to say about scheduling and stuff which was all well and good... needed to start that thinking...

But again, like the previous email, she once again put "it" out there...

She's still upset that it cost her so much to file the SA and she refuses to give her L any more money to file D. So she's putting that on my lap... and that is no different than always...

But as she's always avoided the D conversation, something that I actually asked of her back in about Feb/11, she has refused to address it directly and as you all notice... we have an SA... not a D...

I could go through the whole psych of she wants me to be the bad guy and file and I want her to file because I don't want to be the bad guy and blah, blah...

But the thing we both keep avoiding is... neither of us appears to want this D... After it's all said and done, she'd still be under the standard retainer fee if she filed D... and she has the resources (earnings or otherwise) to do it... while she may not WANT to spend the money, who does... but if you want a new car, you bite the bullet and maybe even buy an upgrade... you find a way to get the money... and you are generally happy to do it...

The harsh reality is, I've fantasized about D as much as six years ago... I struggled with having made a mistake getting M to her... Back in the day, I probably could have convinced her to bare my child without having to get M... but... that's the past... I lived with my choice and tried to make the best of it...

My struggle remains... I really don't like some of my W's character traits and I don't see her changing them... true, I have no problem admitting I have my own character flaws... although most of them I continue to work on getting rid of...

So the moral dilemma... do I take the "easy" way out and end this? Or do I do the "responsible" thing and maintain my M status and be unhappy in an M to a woman whom I really don't think CAN change, at least in the sense that she either doesn't want to do the work TO change, or she really does like herself the way she is and does not CARE TO change...?

I don't think it's right, nor my place, to ask her to change. Never did. That was her choice. I hoped she would choose to grow and change and in her own way, I believe she has... but not in a way that I had hoped... not in a way that drew us closer together... and I don't know how to encourage her to meet my needs nor how to dump what I believe (honestly this may not sound fair, but I believe it to be true) are some major character flaws...

I can't expect her to change and I won't ask her to change... that's not my right... nor in my control...

*bah*...

I've got some work ahead of me... frown

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#2216091 - 01/26/12 01:37 PM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: ~ kd ~]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
chicken - egg...
chicken - egg...
chicken - egg...
chicken - egg...
chicken - egg...

I want to deal with the elephant on the table - I want to determine if my W is someone I want to build a R with...

conflicting commitments...

Are they?

I don't want to discuss the elephant (D) with my W and make a decision on it based on how I currently feel that my W is not someone I would want to be with, because I do feel I do not have enough information...

I do not want to avoid having the D conversation because I feel that this has gone on long enough and there is no movement. Something has to change.

I believe I have had enough experience in received "bad" M news, to know what it would feel like to get the D papers and that I could emotionally handle them. I'm quite confident in that. And I am quite confident that, at this time, I would not contest the D.

hmmm...

Am I afraid to discuss D with my W because I believe she wants it? Yes.

How sure am I that she wants it? 95% sure.

Why do I feel 5% sure that she does not want it? Because she COULD file.

What are some valid reasons why she won't spend the money...? I have no idea... I can certainly understand that she thinks I should take some financial responsibility over this. In her mind, that would be valid. But I do not want this and I will not pay for something that I do not want.

Why won't I support her in this? Of course, that's assuming she wants the D.

OK, so lets say she wants the D. I will be transparent and indicate that without a current job, I am concerned with having to pay child support. I agree that both of us should be financially supporting the children as we best can. I have no problem paying what ever the court might allot as my portion of child support. Having lived at a level of poverty for almost a year, I do not want to be back in that position any time soon. I would be prepared to file once I have an established and consistent level of earnings.

OK, that is reasonable from where I sit. I can do something about that and continue to look for work (of course I will) and once I have established my earnings, the above becomes a moot point.

What else? Why else might I not want to support my W in the D? Well again, there is always that little voice in my head that is saying... what if... There's also that sense of failure. Of not being able to save my M...

So I think that brings the chicken - egg around full circle in this little post of thoughts for now...

I still don't know if I want to be M to my W.

Could my W and I create a better M? Of course we could.

Could my W and I create great lives for ourselves which do not include each other? Of course we could.

Could our kids grow up to have healthy and loving lives and Rs in either situation? Yes... of course...

So choose to make a decision... things aren't changing by doing nothing... change something...

Do I really feel like I've done EVERYTHING? Can one really do EVERYTHING? Have I hit my limit? Is it really so important to keep standing? If yes, why? To whom?

Funny... people say to me that I always want to "win"... that I hate loosing... and it stings... because I understand that their meaning is that I always have to win at the expense of someone else... and that is not at all true...

I am highly competitive, yes... What I find people don't realize about me is, I am highly competitive with myself. Put me in front of a technology problem and you won't see me for weeks on end, until I've solved the problem.

I have come to realize that not all problems need to be solved. Or equally... they do not have to be solved by me...

Is this one of them? Can I really just... let this one go...?

Yes... I could...

At what benefit?

At what cost?

Those are tough questions. Cost to the kids? I'd say damage is already done. So either way....

Benefit? I guess the benefit really is... When this is finally done... it no longer is a problem. New problems would crop up, most certainly... but new problems would crop up, even if I kept standing and we worked it out...

I guess I can let this one go...

So about that elephant...

I suppose I need to let my W know that I do feel this is a decision we both need to make, together. And also, that while I am prepared to file and assume that cost, I am not comfortable doing so until I am employed, so that I know I can afford the child support. But also, that I will not file if it is not something my W is sure of, at this time.

Am I committed to having this conversation? Yes, 100%.

Am I committed to having this conversation within three months? Yes, 100%.

Can I up my intention and commit to having this conversation in 1 month? I could... it scares the heck out of me, but I could commit to this, 100%...

Can I up my intention and commit to having this conversation within 2 weeks? Having committed as above, yes... I feel 100% committed to having this conversation within 2 weeks.

Can I up my intention and commit to having this conversation, face to face...? wow... I'll have to think about that one...

Enough for now...

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#2216112 - 01/26/12 02:25 PM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: ~ kd ~]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
OK, decision made, ball is rolling. This ain't over for another 3 months if things are left up to me. I do need to get that job.

I have emailed my W to let her know that I will discuss the D with her next week.

After having done that, I've re-read her last email. I am now 99% convinced she wants the D. Of course, I will not know until she confirms it. But it is quite clear in the email that her not filing really is about her wanting me to pay for the D filing.

So it goes... change is good...

I'm about as nervous as I was when I first asked her to M me... smirk

I will let her know that I will file when I am gainfully employed due to the child support concern and that if she wants the D sooner, she will have to pay for it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well... I guess nothing more, nothing less if that is all that is to be said... and no... it will not be face to face... grin

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#2216600 - 01/28/12 07:17 AM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: ~ kd ~]
Rick1963 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/11
Posts: 2514
Loc: Piney Land
KD read your comments aNd decision a few days ago. My questions is that if you are 99% sure that W wants a D why don't you let her pay for it? How is the job search?
_________________________
M 51
W 50
D 17
Separated 6/22/11 moved out 11/12
Together 26 yrs
Married 16
W Filed for D 7/21/11
Served 9/6/11
D final 8/28/12

“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”

John Wooden






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#2216659 - 01/28/12 11:16 AM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: Rick1963]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
Hey rick, good questions.

First, it is probably a good idea to explain... an A IS a deal breaker for me... but I was willing to accept it and work things out because I made a choice that my M, my W, and my kids were worth it. If this was just a GF... and there were no kids... I would be gone... period...

Having said that, and having lived 11 years with someone whom had done very little to meet my needs (in the 5LL sense), I have an opportunity to "release her" of her obligations, but more realistically "surrender" to what appears to be her truth that the M is over and use this as an opportunity to seek that which I want.

To be fair, my W probably had no idea that there was anything wrong. She probably had no idea how much my needs not being met were affecting my behaviour in the M. And to be fair, we can't mind read... I likely did not let her know in no uncertain terms, that I was done... 5 years ago... that's my responsibility and I have no right to complain about her absence in the M which is a symptom of my emotional abandonment of her.

I'm reading through 5LL and already had a clear idea that my W's LL is "acts of service" and mine is "quality time". I received a lot of mixed messages throughout our M which I thought were about her understanding and meeting my needs, when it became clear after the fact that they were about me meeting her needs.

I titled this thread AtLRT (After the Last Resort Technique) because while LRT is really a short term technique to help us detach, get emotional control of ourselves, be able to think clearly through our situations, and then move forward with positive actions. The LRT is generally suggested when it is really the last resort, before D... most likely because it is up to us to really get a handle on ourselves and do some really awesome work because D is literally just around the corner.

Once LRT has done its work on us, then we can make some necessary steps to work on the M. But unfortunately... in some cases... that opportunity just does not present itself (or from a responsible frame of mind, we just don't find or look for an opportunity to fix the M). Sometimes D is a necessary step in the road to R.

So to answer your question... I really don't want to admit that D is for me. That D is something that I wanted, for quite some time. I just didn't want to be the bad guy. Was this a conscious thing for me? Probably a little, although it wasn't a plan. I was prepared to stick it out... I was prepared to be unhappy in my M. I had accepted the bed I had made.

Making her pay for the D could be just an unconscious, punitive act from me. I think it's ridiculous that she paid for and processed the SA... something she said she wouldn't do... and rather not just pay for and process the D... something that would have probably cost her the same amount of money...

As I continue my journey of growth... and if I am going to do this in a loving way... and don't get me wrong, I do love my W... I just don't know that, given the opportunity for us to both have what we need... I know my W well enough to believe that... she really is not at a place in her life where she wants to change any of the things that honestly... I can no longer live with...

So I can do this for her. I can, in her LL provide her with this act of service, with no expectations regarding saving the M. And simply do this as appreciation for what I believe she was doing for me through her "act of service" of filing the SA so that I could have the resources I needed to continue my journey, in a way that removed herself from risk.

ie. Not have an SA and support me in moving on, risking herself financially in the event that a D would cause her financial hardship. Something I would not want for her nor the kids.

As for job searching? Not going so well. Job market has slumped this month. No bites right now. I will keep at it, although I have to admit that I am very good at financially finding my own way when I have the resources to do so. If it comes down to it, having the financial resources to do it, I could quite easily go back to being an independent tech and could support myself doing so. I just don't know if that's what I want to do...

So I am probably on parallel paths with financial growth. Until one or the other gets me moving towards my financial goals.

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#2217218 - 01/30/12 01:50 PM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: ~ kd ~]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
Been thinking about this for a bit. I do apologize for posting some menial stuff here, but I think I need to be clear with everyone about a few things.

I am pretty confident in my knowledge and ability to DB now. I am doing my best to support whomever I feel is in need and where my support may help. And often, I'll come to a post and think, "this might be a really good thing for this person, at this time" and wonder how I might have applied it, in my sitch...

Some might begin to wonder, having read above, why I am not following my own advice or that of DBing...

For those who are new and don't really know the beginning of my sitch (and this has been sitting in my thoughts, these day)... you may wonder what might be my fears and what's underlying my willingness to move on. Why, 5 years ago, I was "done"...

I have co-dependent issues. I have done a really good job dealing with them and being in control of them for quite some time. I started working on them about 15 years ago. I became my own man with my own ability to be happy about myself without the need to concern myself over making other people happy.

Understand that, for the most part, I really enjoy helping people. While my primary LL is quality time (without a doubt), I also have a secondary which (per the online quiz) would be words of affirmation.

I don't know that acts of service are also important or if that's just my co-dependency... I'm not big on "needing" others to do things for me, so I guess it is the co-dependency...

Anyhow, even before BD, it was becoming more and more apparent that, in my M, my co-dependency really began to kick in... and I resented it. In stress, people can show their "true colours" but they can also show "false flags" of personality and emotional disorders. I researched them and I know there's a conversation going on right now on this forum that discusses these things. And I want to put out a huge word of caution... Self medicating is not always a good thing. Diagnosing ourselves is fine, but we should always get a second opinion from at least one qualified MD. And that goes to diagnosing anyone else for any possible medical or psychological issue. Don't research and assume your spouse has some psych condition without a DR's confirmation. It could very well be a cheeseless tunnel.

OK, having said that, in my sitch... after BD, I was in the grief stages and I had friends start to point things out to me. Very clearly, I had run straight into co-D behaviour. Every time my W complained about something, I'd jump. As time went on, I devolved and became reclusive. Every complaint my W would give me, I owned and took on to mean that I was not good enough. That I was a bad person.

I don't think my W meant to do that. But hey, I don't know she didn't, either. Did she not see me down? Did she need to keep kicking me? Maybe she thought they were nudges. Maybe she thought she was being loving and trying to support me in the only way she knew how...

But that point is moot, now...

After BD and until this point, my W's words and actions to that end, what could in some ways be construed as abusive, have not changed. I can think back and see these things in her from the moment I met her and I saw them during the M and I continue to see them...

And... I can not go back there... I can not do that again. I would be disrespecting myself and I would be hurting my kids, to allow myself to go back to that.

It hurts to make my choice and my misgivings about choosing D has clouded my memories. I'd forgotten what I lived through. I remember now...

So again to my response to rick above, I could leave D up to my W. I could file D as a final, loving act to my W in regards to the M...

But I am filing because, I can not and will not let myself be in that sitch again.

Hope that makes sense.

I say this because I want the members here to understand that I do not want to be an example that people should leave an M if they see no movement in their partner. Each of our sitchs are unique in their own way. I am doing this for my continued and future emotional safety and well being.

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#2217266 - 01/30/12 04:37 PM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: ~ kd ~]
Rick1963 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/11
Posts: 2514
Loc: Piney Land
Hey KD hope I did not stress you with my question. And you have never given the impression that anyone should leave their M. In the contrary, thanks for the help.
_________________________
M 51
W 50
D 17
Separated 6/22/11 moved out 11/12
Together 26 yrs
Married 16
W Filed for D 7/21/11
Served 9/6/11
D final 8/28/12

“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”

John Wooden






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#2217272 - 01/30/12 04:49 PM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: ~ kd ~]
Valeska19 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/11
Posts: 1240
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
^^^^^^ rings very true to me and my sitch as well. Thank you for expressing your thoughts.

I have said many times that a certain action would be "my final loving act to my wife".....

.... Funny enough I have had "many" of those certain actions.

Love can often be the harder choice, the more narrow road. It can often mean more pain, and can seem like there is no "reward" at the end of the journey.

But we do not know how our decisions today will impact us or the other person today, tomorrow, or years down the road....

... but I DO believe that a loving action WILL have an impact. I have to... because I believe in a God that has a ridiculous amount of love for me. So it is the choice we should always strive to make.

I do not read any of posts as being unloving or you giving up in regards to your sitch.

Marriage isn't about a piece of paper. It's about a choice. It's a choice to love the person... unconditionally.... and to do that in the face of any obstacle.

Sometimes that means letting go. Sometimes it may mean ending the m....

.... and that is ok. Hard and heartbreaking - but ok.
_________________________
M(f): 31
XW: 33
M: 5
D'ed: 8/12

Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.

Love at all costs because you are loved well.

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#2217295 - 01/30/12 05:56 PM Re: AtLRT for 4... and more... [Re: Valeska19]
~ kd ~ Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 4866
Loc: Canoe'k-land
naw @rick... it's all good! My last post was based on me remembering the "bad stuff" that I had mentally blocked out. It dawned on me as I was wondering why I kept focusing on the fact that my W hadn't changed and how I wasn't really doing anything to change me and get out of "defense" mode. It was purely unconscious, self preservation.

The reality is, I HAVE changed. I am back to whom I was. Whom my W M'd. But I still panic to get into a room with her and have any "real" dialogue with her, such as negotiating SA or having the D talk... I have no problem standing beside her and talking about nothing... actually... now that I think about it, I probably would be OK with doing so. But I don't wanna... smile

What I KNOW is my "same old" behaviour is saying "yes", even when it puts me out. And that's my co-D talking. And these past 11 years have brought that out in me again. I fear that talking emotional stuff with her, f2f will set me up to make bad choices. I think the fact that I won't do the f2f with my W really pisses her off because I feel she really wants me to be "OK" with this... and... I don't wanna... grin

So me going dark and NOT jumping is a HUGE 180 for me and I suspect it is something that my W really does not want to accept and is likely the reason why her responses continue to be spew... but... it is a healthy 180 for me and I don't have to apologize for that. I MUST keep my co-D in check, even if it costs me my M. Besides... keeping my co-D wasn't healthy for the M, either... smirk

It took me a heck of a lot of self control to open up to my W in the first place, when we first got together and then M'd. The minnow can got opened and over the years, it all just puked out... I couldn't get the lid back on...

And yes, @Val, I know enough and understand and live unconditional enough to move forward with loving actions. I can genuinely say that I don't even think of it as taking a "high road"... it is just how I had decided to live my life. Something I embraced 15 years ago and like about myself and will continue to do...

Thanks for the feedback, you two! cool

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