Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 12 13
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 315
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 315
Sorry, I've been away and have read to catch up on what I've missed. Be back soon.

The Captain


Last sex: 04/06/1997
Last attempt: 11/11/1997
W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997
W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998
I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds.
Start running again (marathons)
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,502
A
Accuray Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,502
No problem Captain, no big emergency currently. FWIW, here are the 180's that my W said "mattered" when asked by the MC:

1) Approachable: She said that I used to be unapproachable when she wanted to discuss something that was difficult, or something I disagreed with. She said she felt she would get "talk to the hand" and I'd just end the conversation and walk away. Now she feels I'm very approachable and we can have productive conversations.

2) Connection: She said that I make it a point to connect at least once per day to ask her how her day is going, generally catch up etc. She said I used to neglect her.

3) Physical: She said that we've established the same bed time and hug when going to bed and when waking up, she said that's been very important to her. Before I tended to go to bed after she was asleep, and she'd be gone before I woke up.

4) Partnership: She feels that I'm more of a partner now, will work on projects with her versus in parallel, and that I've taken on more household tasks. She appreciates that.

So yes, the pursuing stuff (gifts, acts of service, compliments, etc.) did not make the list of what matters -- good to know.

It was interesting to listen to her characterization of how I used to be, because my impression is so much different. When I started to point out that she could have tried connecting with me too, MC stopped us both and said that there is an effect that has been studied that our memories are driven by our intentions, not our actions. i.e. if we intended to be helpful but were perceived as controlling, our memory will be that we were helpful, even if we got direct feedback that what we did was controlling. He said that's why it's often difficult to reconcile our impressions of our past relationships -- because our intentions are invisible to the other party, all they see is our actions. We're largely focused on our intentions and are therefore less aware of how our actions are perceived.

Good stuff.

Accuray


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 315
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 315
I'd say you had a couple of interesting weeks.

Good point about actions. We all operate with our own assumptions, interpretations, and intentions driven by our self-interests. The perception/action/intention, though is a two-way street, filteres through the other's view. So, while your wife pointed out 4 different things that mattered (or maybe more correctly she noticed that were important to her), the question remains: Did the matter enough to alter behavior?

I've been through a similar conversation a number of times myself.

A couple of other points left hanging in previous posts:

Its natural to want to find a reasonable explanation for why things go the way they do, whether that be some book, some condition, some course or training that seems to explain or fit most of what we are and have experienced. An observation on my part: while various books may be useful in creating a language to explain and relate to what has and is happening in your marriage, in the end you have to adapt those "insights" to a language and actions consistent with who you are. And who you are is something that you state with words and with actions so that the external world and your internal worlld "know you."

You asked about what acceptance looks like. That is a good way of asking the question as acceptance is not something you do. One way it would look would be having and grasping as complete an understanding of your wife's POV and taking actions consistent with that. That is difficult when someone really won't let you in.

Acceptance is something created in a present moment. I can't tell you what it looks like exactly, you'll know it when you see.
However, an appropriate analogy is like describing "balance" when riding a bicycle. If you've never riden a bicycle, you know what that looks like but you don't know what it feels like (and how that translate internally to your own sense of experience) until you actually achieve it.

Balance in walking probably came well before you were programmed with language to relate to it in the same way. There you were acting on stimulus/response patterns that are partially hard-wired into your brain (just as sexual drive is also partially hard-wired). You created a muscle memory that really doesn't require language to have it happen. But to have it "occur" as something conscious is a bit more difficult to describe because the occurrence (awareness) only comes through language. Sometimes the language is not up to the process.

But by choosing a metaphor like balance for bicycle riding or skiing, the sense of balance (like acceptance) comes in a fleeting moment when all of a sudden your realize you "have it." It can disappear in an instant when it is no longer "present" (and we could say that you were no longer in the present moment). It can, with practice, become "second nature" and it is also something which you can continually "create" (until you don't).

I'm going to use some interesting language that may not make sense and is designed to be thought provoking. And it is a three-step view. This is why I use balance on a bicycle or skis as the metaphor...it is not some physical object you point to in space and time.

Being in acceptance (being accepting) is being related to something that is unimaginable to be related to, the occurrence of which, if ever, lies on the other side of being related to that is unimaginable to be related to.

Instead of acceptance, I could have used the word "present," or "love" or any other number of words that seem trancendental. But lets stick with acceptance and the metaphor of balance.

Read the above italicized paragraph several more times and just let it sink in. Don't try to think it through, don't try to translate it, don'tr try to understand it. If it reads as confusing, you are in a perfect spot. When you think you've got the general structure of the paragraph move down to the next paragraph below.

So, here are the three points.

What does is mean to be related to something. I'm going to use a tangible example. First, an occurring world occurs only because of language. The language you have been programmed with and use "give you" your world view. No language, no occurring world (different from stuff happening in the world, but without language there is no way to catalog and recognize it). The story of Helen Keller was a great example of this.

As a tangible example, you know what a door is. You see it and relate to it in certain ways, many of which may be cultural. In your experience with a door, you also have accumulated rules of doors. Thus, you "be related to" a door by recognizing and classifiying it in your vocabulary as a "door" and you relate to that door through all the rules you know about doors. You use those rules to know when you and if you can and should open a door, whether you should knock, what it means if a door is locked, etc. You also know how a door fits in with a structure (room, building, etc.).

To a culture without doors, any explanation you gave would be nonsensical both because the language and the "occurence" of doors is outside of their realm of experience. For them a door is unimaginable to be related to.

Are you with me so far?

On the intangible like acceptance it is the same type of deal...being related to that which is unimaginable to be related to. Just as it is to see balance on a bicycle, but until you actually experience it, it is unimaginable to be related to. You may have preconceived notions and expectations and they are just that.

I can tell you all the things you need to do to create balance and ride a bicycle and you would know the meaning of all the words...but until you actually experience the words are almost as meaningless as some nonsense language.

So you get on the bike and start doing those things you've been told to do to create balance in riding a bicycle. And you are likely to crash a few times. Someone might run alongside of you helping to keep the bicycle upright or you might have "training wheels" to help keep the bicycle upright to create a sense of bein balanced. Or you might give up thinking that this is too hard to do or too hard to produce the satisfaction that you think ought to occur.

But there is another possibility...that you get and experience "balance" and that happens in a present moment, not the past, not the future, right now in the here and now. So, by being related to that which is unimaginable to be related to (the possibility of being in balance or being in acceptance), there is a moment where it happens. In that moment it just seems to happen, its timeless. This is the completion of step two.

Step three is the occurring. The "occurring," where you say to yourself that you are balanced (or accepting), happens in a blink of an eye right after you are balanced (the occurring of which, if ever, occurs on the other side of being related to that which is unimagiable to be related to). In that instant and all subsequent ones, all the descriptions books, instructions, etc of how to balance yourself on a bicycle make sense (if we weren't speaking gibberish to begin with).

Now, if you've grasped what I've written, you can probably see how this could apply to just about every aspect of living.

Isn't love the same way? Didn't you have all these notions of what love was before you ever realized that you were in love? You can know all the things to do and loving is a state of being that exists in the present that you are always creating in the present moment. And when you aren't creating that you are in your past about exepectations, the way things should be, ought to be, etc.

This is soething that requires fairly advance persongood to sustain (and even though I can articulate it, I'm not immune to the conversations about the way things ought to be rather than the way things are).

One final thought on this. Making love is much the same way as riding a bicycle in balance. You (and your wife) know all the mechanics of sex. You can go through the motions and "do sex" upon one another and the physical sensations of the physiological act can be pleasurable. But you (and others) make a distinction between sex and ML, that there is something that "occurs" for you that you relate to differently than just the sexual mechanics. And when you consistently achieve that state, even though you might be doing much the same things over and over again, each time seems "new" and unique. In fact, we probably approach each time as if it was differnt because it is/was. When it loses it spark, it could be as much as doing the same old thing lloking for a moment from the past to happen again, rather than creating it in the moment.

Just something to think about.

One last thing on letting go...

It looks like things that you are withholding or something to do that looks like "letting go" to you. My sense is that letting go is quite different from what you think it is or what you've been doing.

The Captain


Last sex: 04/06/1997
Last attempt: 11/11/1997
W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997
W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998
I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds.
Start running again (marathons)
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,502
A
Accuray Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,502
Thanks Captain,

I've been thinking about this since you wrote it. I've had a rough week. Between XMas and New Years we went on a cruise which was my W's choice as a family vacation. A cruise would have been the last thing I would have wanted to do, but I went along for the ride with a good attitude and tried to really enjoy myself. My W commented about what a good attitude I had and that really helped her to enjoy it. This week we are on a family ski vacation (my choice) for school vacation week. My W's attitude has been very hard for me to take. She's letting me know in no uncertain terms how unhappy she is to be here.

The weather is actually great, new snow, no wind, warm temps, yet she's not skiing and is generally like 3 days of rain. We've ML twice on the vacation and it was the worst experience I can remember. She made it very clear it was "for me" and let me know she didn't enjoy it at all. This is really trying my patience. We're here with 2 other families from town and the other wives are great, helping with the kids on the slopes, truly enjoying themselves, etc., it's really eye opening that my W is unduly negative.

I was thinking today about how badly I wanted this woman back when she cheated on me and asked for divorce. Based on how I'm feeling now, if she did it again I'd tell her to go and wish her luck. What was I thinking?

Accuray


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,877
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,877
Hi Accuray - it sounds like you are going through a tough time lately. What is it you love about your W and your M as it is now? Try journaling that - if not here somewhere private. The dissatisfaction seems to be growing. I know you need to vent the bad stuff too, but take some time to focus on what's good to balance it out in your mind. To remind you of what you're working for, striving for. What you are maintaining your relationship for. I hope you can stay married and be satisfied in your marriage. It sounds lately like she is not bringing much to the table - look for the small things that might make you feel better. One is that she was willing to go see the MC - that was a big thing. One is that she ML with you twice on your vacation - maybe think of the "it wasn't good for me" speech as Tourette's like, something she seems to be unable to control, can you sort of tune it out? I'm grasping here.

What is keeping you motivated?


Adinva 51, S20, S18
M24 total
6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out
9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50
5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend
__
Happiness is a warm puppy.
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,502
A
Accuray Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,502
Hi Adinva,

Thanks for checking in. I spoke to the MC one-on-one after our last session and he said that my W has "taken a critical healing mechanism off the table" by not being willing to work on things and just expecting to be accepted "as is". He said that in his opinion W doesn't want to deal with things. It's hard not to be able to make any requests or want to work on improving our marriage without upsetting her and being the bad guy, I feel painted into a corner. On the last night of our ski vacation we were out to dinner with the kids and she was complaining about the weather. I told her "you really didn't enjoy this vacation did you?" She then got really angry and said she was just going to leave the restaurant. I didn't want that to happen in front of the kids so I talked her back down, but I was VERY tempted to let her leave, because I don't think that storming out is acceptable behavior.

Between that, discovering that W wants more space in the marriage and less intimacy, that W has accepted being chronically unhappy and doesn't want to deal with it and the fact that the ML has been getting worse, I am questioning my commitment.

I've been doing online weight watchers for a few weeks and have lost about 7 pounds. I've also started a new exercise program. From my perspective, if this doesn't work out, I'm going to be feeling as good as I can about myself at the end. Working on these things has really allowed me to care less about what's going on with W and "do my thing" which feels like I'm heading back to where I was before the bomb dropped, but I don't see that W is giving me options.

In terms of your question about what's keeping me motivated? I would have to say it's about 85% the kids at this point. They are really very happy and I know that dealing with a divorce would be devastating for them, particularly because of my W's unhappiness and bad moods. I'm a buffer for that while I'm in the house, but if I was gone they wouldn't have anywhere to go.

I would like a better marriage, I feel like I've pushed it as far as I can alone. I'm not sure where to go from here. I think we ran MC as far as it's going to help. I ordered "The Solo Partner" per Cadet and it came the other day, I'm going to start reading that. I read "The Passion Trap" but we're not clearly in a one-up, one-down dynamic, it wasn't as applicable as I had hoped.

BTW, W doesn't say "it wasn't good for me" -- I stopped asking.

Thanks for checking in Adinva, how's it going for you?

Accuray


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 685
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 685
Accuray
I understand that your kids being involved changes the equation considerably. That being said your wife handed you a major fitness test and you failed it. You had an honorable reason to let it go, unfortunately you just proved to her that she can say or do outrageous things in front of the children, and you will fold for their sake. Don't be surprised if she continues to throw ultimatums and tantrums in front of them.

I know it seems like you are making things worse, but when she throws a tantrum let her. Let her learn that she gets nothing out of it. Otherwise you are just reinforcing to her that she can get her way if she acts nasty in front of the kids.

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,502
A
Accuray Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,502
Greenblue90,

You really need to step back from MMSLP, it's one input into the equation, it doesn't define all human interactions now and forever. It is a valuable data point, but it's just that.

That was not a fitness test, my W was truly upset, she wasn't testing me, she doesn't do fitness tests. I read the book too, I would know, and that's not her. Not every relationship conflict is a fitness test.

I did not fold, I maintained that her behavior was inappropriate and discussed it with her again after the kids were asleep. I just prevented her from making a scene in the restaurant in front of the kids by not pressing my point at the time. I further made the point that threatening to storm away from the table was inappropriate, and that if she was going to do that, we weren't going to go to restaurants (boundary).

You have given some people some really good advice, I used to really like what you wrote, but now you are way off the deep end on MMSLP -- it may work for you, it may be exactly the thing you needed for your marriage, but it is not a cure-all and does not apply to every situation.

Accuray


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
Originally Posted By: Accuray
I'm a buffer for that while I'm in the house, but if I was gone they wouldn't have anywhere to go.

Yup, been there done that.

Sounds like to me she was acting like a teenager.

Until she finshes growing up you will be the DAD.

Tough for a wife to sleep with their DAD, don't you think?

Glad you got the book, the last part of the book is the best, IMHO.


Me-70, D37,S36
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 685
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 685
Accuray
You hadn't mentioned that you confronted her about it later on. As for fitness tests maybe that was the wrong term, but MMSL or not you get the behavior you tolerate. I just wanted to point out that.

As for the way I think well things have sure changed. You are right in that I'm not as optimistic as I used to be. I still think DB was one of the best things that ever happened to me. Despite this it's been a very long and hard year. My wife like yours and a couple of other old timers returned, yet something wast quite right. They're physically back, but mentally go WAW.

They know they don't want to leave, but they can't accept that. They say things like I'm doing it for the kids, or I don't know if this is what I want, amongst other excuses.

I know DB is all about saving marriages, which I still believe in. Just not in saving marriages "at ALL costs".

Especially when the WAW won't commit to a happy marriage and instead strings the LBS along.

Now of course everyone's definition of a happy marriage is different. Mine happens to include a robust sex life.

So if your W does not even want to lift a finger to give you what makes you happy then I believe it's ok to move on.

That being said I really love my W like many here do, so the MMSL philosophy fits well it gives me a chance to methodically improve myself while giving my wife a chance to notice my improvements while giving her time to react and show some of her own.

I try to model the relationship I want by acting the part in my own marriage. I think I either haven't expressed myself well or people are misunderstanding.

I don't believe in a sudden thunderous ultimatum. I especially don't believe in being a WAS.

What I do believe in now is my inherent self worth, and what it will take to keep a person like myself in a relationship. Don't necessarily believe in unconditional love either, or rather that it's smart to practice it.

I think there have to be conditions to stay, on both sides. You wouldn't stay with your partner if they killed your parents, how about if they beat you? Cheated on you? Talked down to you? Disrespected you? Denied you all sexual pleasure?The slope gets more slippery as we go down.

Of course you have your children and their welfare to think about, but consider this: it is said that children often model their parents relationships, what type of role models do they have?

I think following the MAP is a very good way since it advocates about a year for every "point in sex rank" you want to achieve. This means that you have a long time to fix yourself and your spouse has a long time to notice, but most importantly accept your changes.

When a spouse becomes a WAW whether you want to call it sex rank, not enough alpha or beta, or whatever, you are not worth much to your spouse. Your probably hemorrhaging value.

DB is excellent at closing the wound. Its like emergency care for a marriage. It stabilizes it. Going dark, 180's, stopping the begging and pleading, are all ways of stopping you from behaving and unattractive ways and making you even more intolerable to your WAS.

Whereas DB is emergency treatment, MMSL (at least for the guys) is like strengthening the muscle around the wound, and practicing preventive care.

Ultimately though if the one that keeps stabbing the marriage and opening wounds, part of preventive care would be to move away from the person doing damage. Thus why the MAP ends in divorce.

I've received advice in the past before saying that a LD has no reason to change unless they have a good reason.

SSM lays out a lot of good reasons as to why the LD should change. (a happy partner, and a strong marriage being big ones, and of course discouraging infidelity being important too)

I think the average stubborn LD is too conflicted with their own issues to care about their partners fulfillment, while at the same time either believes their partner incapable, unwilling, or too unattractive to cheat or leave for someone else.

In other words "my marriage is safe, so I don't have to change"

Or worse "I care so little for my marriage that I don't care if he cheats or leaves, maybe I'll leave first!"

By following the map, you increase your own self value so that she hopefully values you more, in doing that she realizes you now have the ability to cheat or leave for someone else. It doesn't mean you will, or are even considering it, but you can.

Now she has to protect this man she suddenly values, lest some other woman take him away.

It's her motivation to change. We often tell people here to become the person only a fool would leave.

MMSL tweaks it to say: be the person only a fool would risk losing.

Page 4 of 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 12 13

Moderated by  Michele Weiner-Davis 

Link Copied to Clipboard