MC says to call it quits

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

I was thinking today about how badly I wanted this woman back when she cheated on me and asked for divorce. Based on how I'm feeling now, if she did it again I'd tell her to go and wish her luck. What was I thinking?

What you were thinking was "what have I done wrong and what can I do to fix it?" because you were caught unaware and essentially blindsided.

And you were certain that if you just did that, your wife would once again love you as much as you love(d) her. While you might have surmised that there would be some difficulty in trust (as in your trusting her and her trusting you not to "se" this against her), you were confident, even if in shock, in your own ability to "make this right."

That's what you were thinking. I know I've been there before.

And what is happening is that you are questioning your resolve and your ability to actually do this as things don't progress and as you see your wife really unwilling to commit to your marriage and making it healthy and vibrant again.

This ski vacation was "for you" and what is upsetting is that there is no reciprocity for your efforts between Christmas and New Years. I still contend she isn't ML to or with you...she is doing sex to you to meet some illusion of relationship and marriage (which is the most obvious outward sign that she can provide).

Is there something that actually is a game changer given everything that has occurred since last summer? Well, whatever it is, oneor both of you are going to have to give up your boredom.

At some point you may, indeed, need to say to her that she was correct and you were not when the affair was revealed...that she needs to leave and (possibly) file for divorce. You may be tempted to say something like so she "can find someone just as sexless" as she is," but I wonuldn't recommend it. But it isn't the ultimatum of sex or divorce...choose. It is a recognition that she is unhappy and wishes to make you equally unhappy and that she needs to take that someplace else.

I know that a divorce is not something that you'd automatically choose, nor sm I saying that is what you ought to dangle out there as the likely outcome. But a serious question is whether she really wants to remain married to you. We don't ask because we a re afraid the answer might be "no." when we've always thought it should be "yes." But you are now in the position of "pushing a rope" which tends not to be very productive.

The Captain

[Accuray]

Greenblue90,

you get the behavior you tolerate. I just wanted to point out that.

I'm well aware of that. "Bad behavior" from an adult is complicated though. Sometimes the person is in control and is trying to be difficult or provocative, or get a rise out of you. That's the kind of behavior you need to clamp down on. Other times the person is simply out of control, they have "lost it", either out of deep sadness, anger or despair. Those scenarios you have to treat on a case by case basis. Sometimes you have to set limits and walk away, sometimes you have to listen and comfort, and sometimes you need to stabilize and revisit later. Category 1 bad behavior is described in the fitness test. Category 2 bad behavior really isn't discussed in MMSLP except touched on in the "batsh*t crazy" rant he has.

They know they don't want to leave, but they can't accept that. They say things like I'm doing it for the kids, or I don't know if this is what I want, amongst other excuses.

My sitch is different here. My W accepts that she wants to stay. She does not say she's doing it for the kids or anything else. She's saying things are MUCH better for her, she's happy, and she just wants me to be happy with what she can provide, without having to change who she is. That is a significant difference between our sitches, our women are different, have different motivations, different issues, etc. Although some of their behaviors may seem to fit similar patterns, the cause of those behaviors may be far different, so they can't be dealt with or explained in the same way.

[/Quote=Greenblue90]Especially when the WAW won't commit to a happy marriage and instead strings the LBS along.[/Quote]

There's an important dynamic to be understood here concerning decision and inability. WAW may be stringing you along because they have decided to do so, or it may feel that way because they are incapable of intimacy due to their own issues. Do you agree with that distinction?

Upon lots of reflection, that's my fundamental issue with MMSLP. The author suggests that if your W isn't having sex with you, it's because they're not attracted to you sexually, because your sex rank is lower, you're not alpha or beta enough, etc. etc.

The assumption is that all women are sexual beings, have sex drives just like men do, and it's something about you that is holding them back. It's because of some fault of yours. What that ignores is what if your W is not sexual because of how they feel about themselves? What if your W has body image problems? What if your W has self-esteem or self-confidence problems? What if your W has been taught religious guilt or shame in regards to sex? Those things don't have anything to do with you. Running the MAP may get you "defensive sex" in that scenario, but as previously discussed I don't think many married men would consider that a win or an acceptable long term outcome.

MMSLP may be right "on average", but on average men are taller than women. That doesn't mean you won't find a married couple with a taller wife -- that scenario exists, it's just on the edges of the bell curve. If you apply the "average case" rules to the end of the bell curve cases you won't get the expected result.

So if your W does not even want to lift a finger to give you what makes you happy then I believe it's ok to move on.

Agreed if that is her choice. If she is incapable of doing the things that make you happy because of who she is, then the equation is more complicated.

That being said I really love my W like many here do, so the MMSL philosophy fits well it gives me a chance to methodically improve myself while giving my wife a chance to notice my improvements while giving her time to react and show some of her own.

Working on your own improvements is awesome, I'm doing the same thing. However, if you're expecting your W to "notice" and for that notice to result in new behaviors, you may be disappointed if the source of your sexual issues were NOT due to your deficiencies but instead your W's issues. Along the same lines, if you expect her to show some of her own improvements because you've improved, then you're falling into the "Nice Guy" thinking trap. Her choice to work on improvements is completely independent of what you do or do not do.

What I do believe in now is my inherent self worth, and what it will take to keep a person like myself in a relationship. Don't necessarily believe in unconditional love either, or rather that it's smart to practice it.

I think there have to be conditions to stay, on both sides. You wouldn't stay with your partner if they killed your parents, how about if they beat you? Cheated on you? Talked down to you? Disrespected you? Denied you all sexual pleasure?The slope gets more slippery as we go down.

Right, I agree with all of that. Did I suggest I was going to stay unconditionally? I have boundaries and am committed to them. One of them is that we will have a sex life in our marriage with at least once weekly frequency. If that ends, I am gone.

Of course you have your children and their welfare to think about, but consider this: it is said that children often model their parents relationships, what type of role models do they have?

I have no concerns about this whatsoever. My W and I have always parented extremely well as a team. We don't have "stupid" fights in front of the kids, although we do have occasional disagreements, but I think having the kids see us work through that is healthy. That's why when my W threatened to leave the table I had such a strong reaction later. She has never done that, and from my perspective we don't act that way in front of the kids. I made it clear that I felt that way. Since piecing, we've been more physical in front of the kids, more hugging, etc. We've been doing things around the house more together, in general, our "model" has improved, although it was never bad.

I think following the MAP is a very good way since it advocates about a year for every "point in sex rank" you want to achieve. This means that you have a long time to fix yourself and your spouse has a long time to notice, but most importantly accept your changes.

His disclaimer is so key here -- she may not notice, she may not respond the way you want, and the author says "then you leave". Is that your plan?

When a spouse becomes a WAW whether you want to call it sex rank, not enough alpha or beta, or whatever, you are not worth much to your spouse. Your probably hemorrhaging value.

Maybe not. What if your W is going through menopause or has other medical or psychological issues going on that have nothing to do with you? I saw Joe Pantoliano on TV the other day talking about his battle with depression. He said he felt so badly about himself he wanted to punish his wife for loving him. Does that mean he didn't value her? I don't think so, I think he couldn't accept her love because he didn't love himself. See the difference?

Whereas DB is emergency treatment, MMSL (at least for the guys) is like strengthening the muscle around the wound, and practicing preventive care.

You and I are just going to disagree on that. MMSL is one thing to think about, along with 5LL's, How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It, The Passion Trap, Passionate Marriage, etc. They all contribute a little bit to strengthening the muscle. Sometimes they are contradictory. You need to create your own MAP based upon your understanding of your sitch, your understanding of your W, your goals for your M, and "package motivations" like your kids, your financial sitch, etc. You also need to decide on the man you want to be. If your only motivation is to have a great sex life and nothing much matters beyond that, then MMSLP is the way to go. Reading it, the "ultimate solution" is to marry a woman with a lower sex rank to begin with. Then you win coming out of the gate. Is that what you want?

I've received advice in the past before saying that a LD has no reason to change unless they have a good reason.

Sometimes even given a good reason they are incapable, because you cannot change your sexuality. You can act differently, but you can't "make" yourself HD. I don't believe even a buff caveman with a giant club can make some LD women HD. I did not buy that. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but not always one way or the other.

I think the average stubborn LD is too conflicted with their own issues to care about their partners fulfillment, while at the same time either believes their partner incapable, unwilling, or too unattractive to cheat or leave for someone else.

In other words "my marriage is safe, so I don't have to change"

My W told me she assumed I was cheating. She knows I'm marketable and that she wasn't meeting my needs, so she assumed I was getting it taken care of on the side. How does that fit into your argument?

Or worse "I care so little for my marriage that I don't care if he cheats or leaves, maybe I'll leave first!"

Or how about, "I feel so badly about myself I don't know what to do. I value my marriage, but nothing I do seems good enough, so it doesn't seem worth it to try." Can you see this perspective too or not?

By following the map, you increase your own self value so that she hopefully values you more, in doing that she realizes you now have the ability to cheat or leave for someone else. It doesn't mean you will, or are even considering it, but you can.

Once again, she realizes that. She thinks someone else could make me happier, but she feels hopeless in the face of that knowledge because she doesn't think she has what it takes to compete.

Now she has to protect this man she suddenly values, lest some other woman take him away.

...or she decides she doesn't have the resources to protect this man and instead resigns herself to failure...

I hope this has made sense. I think I've laid out the holes I see in MMSLP. If you don't agree or can't see this perspective, you and I are just going to agree to disagree, because continuing to make these arguments with me isn't going to go anywhere. I read the book too, cover to cover. I understand it, no one is going to explain it better than the author did. I just don't agree with everything in it. I see exactly how my sitch fits into it, and his prescription does not lead to the outcome I want.

Accuray

[Accuray]

What you were thinking was "what have I done wrong and what can I do to fix it?" because you were caught unaware and essentially blindsided.

And you were certain that if you just did that, your wife would once again love you as much as you love(d) her. While you might have surmised that there would be some difficulty in trust (as in your trusting her and her trusting you not to "se" this against her), you were confident, even if in shock, in your own ability to "make this right."

So right Captain. I have also gained this hindsight. I see that now. I viewed the situation as my failing and therefore wanted to address it.

And what is happening is that you are questioning your resolve and your ability to actually do this as things don't progress and as you see your wife really unwilling to commit to your marriage and making it healthy and vibrant again.

I'm coming to see it as unable versus unwilling. The "unwilling" is something I could not accept, could not live with. "Unable" is something I can deal with.

This ski vacation was "for you" and what is upsetting is that there is no reciprocity for your efforts between Christmas and New Years.

Kind of, I went into it with the assumption that it was "for us", so when I saw that she wasn't going to make an effort to enjoy it, it bothered me. I was looking forward to a family vacation, with the emphasis on family. If I just wanted a good ski trip "for me", I'd go with my guy friends.

I didn't go into it expecting reciprocity, because I didn't go into it thinking that she was coming reluctantly. She suggested going skiing over school vacation week, so I assumed she was "on board", and I made expensive lodging accommodations because I knew she would value it. Then, on vacation she seemed overly critical, moody, and when we went out to dinner with other families she let out a torrent of complaints. Reflecting back on our prior vacation was something I did after the fact, I didn't go in expecting "I did that for you, now you do this for me."

I still contend she isn't ML to or with you...she is doing sex to you to meet some illusion of relationship and marriage (which is the most obvious outward sign that she can provide).

Yes, this continues to wear on me. Once again, it's not always bad. Sometimes it's quite good. If it were always bad it would make things easier. It's "just good enough" to keep me invested. When we were on vacation, I could have been having sex with a prostitute, that's the attitude I was getting. If that were the norm I would not accept that -- it's not.

Is there something that actually is a game changer given everything that has occurred since last summer? Well, whatever it is, one or both of you are going to have to give up your boredom.

I don't get it. What would have been a game changer? Are you talking about during the vacation, or since last summer?

What do you mean that one or both of us has to give up our boredom? What boredom?

At some point you may, indeed, need to say to her that she was correct and you were not when the affair was revealed...that she needs to leave and (possibly) file for divorce. You may be tempted to say something like so she "can find someone just as sexless" as she is," but I wouldn't recommend it.

I wouldn't say that. I don't view it as a willful act of malice on her part. I see it as an inability that she doesn't feel she has the strength to work on. I have hinted at this a few times. I told her that if she feels she needs to leave again I will let her go, and not to stay out of any sense of obligation. If she doesn't *want* to stay, she should leave and I will not follow.

But it isn't the ultimatum of sex or divorce...choose. It is a recognition that she is unhappy and wishes to make you equally unhappy and that she needs to take that someplace else.

It's a bit different in that she does want me to be happy, but she wants what she currently offers to be good enough. If I expressed no dissatisfaction with her ever again she would be overjoyed.

The ultimatum is also not "sex or divorce" because I currently have sex. As we've discussed, I don't want sex, I want "quality ML", so the ultimatum would be "quality ML or divorce" which I would imagine would be a scary ultimatum because how do you measure "quality ML"?

I know that a divorce is not something that you'd automatically choose, nor am I saying that is what you ought to dangle out there as the likely outcome. But a serious question is whether she really wants to remain married to you. We don't ask because we are afraid the answer might be "no." when we've always thought it should be "yes." But you are now in the position of "pushing a rope" which tends not to be very productive.

The interesting thing about that question is that you'll only truly be confident in the answer if it's "no" right? Otherwise they could just be saying "yes" because they're not ready to be pushed out of the nest.

I'm convinced that at this point she does want to stay married to me.

She wants to stay married to me on her terms -- which is to say that she's "good enough" as is, that no changes are expected, and that I treat whatever she does for me as a gift. That I am 100% responsible for my own happiness and satisfaction, and if she contributes anything to that it's treated as a bonus. <-- That philosophy is espoused by many relationship books. Here's how I've come to view that:

1) My MC said it's pure fiction -- that the institution of marriage implies that you are to some degree responsible for your spouse's happiness. He said that to try to be happy in a marriage (or any relationship) where the other party is not doing their part is impossible. I do believe this.

2) Although it's very hard for our spouses to consistently "make us happy", it's easy for our spouses to "make us unhappy". They know exactly where to go, what to do, and what buttons to push. If our spouse is not responsible for our happiness, I do believe they owe us a responsibility not to push our unhappiness buttons when we are happy.

Think of it like an eroding land bank near the sea. "Providing happiness" would be like building a sea wall in front of it to prevent further erosion. That implies concerted effort.

"Not detracting from happiness" would be not pulling out the grass and pulling rocks out of the bank which will hasten the erosion process.

Obviously it would be nice if our spouse would work on the sea wall, but the level of "obligation" there is subject to discussion.

I feel they are obliged not to make the situation worse by pulling out the grass and yanking out the rocks.

If your spouse is depressed, an alcoholic, etc., and their behaviors detract from your happiness, then they are pulling out the rocks and grass. If they deal with their issues they are preventing further erosion, versus creating your happiness.

Make sense?

Accuray

[greenblue90]

Accuray
I had a huge long post written but I deleted all of it.

This is all I really have.

Are you happy with the status quo? (this includes sex, but is more than that to include the way she treats you, and how her outlook on life affects you)

If you are not happy, do you demand she does change in order to continue the relationship, or are you willing to accept your unhappiness and frustration?

if you do expect change on her part how long are you willing to wait till you throw in the towel?

[Accuray]

Are you happy with the status quo? (this includes sex, but is more than that to include the way she treats you, and how her outlook on life affects you)

Categorically no, sometimes yes, and things are slowly improving overall. I have hope it will turn to categorically yes and sometimes no. That transition has as much to do with me as it does with her.

If you are not happy, do you demand she does change in order to continue the relationship, or are you willing to accept your unhappiness and frustration?

I have been told she will not or cannot change, so demanding is off the table. I either end the relationship, accept my unhappiness and frustration, or find a different path to happiness within the relationship.

if you do expect change on her part how long are you willing to wait till you throw in the towel?

My current plan is run the MAP, get as happy with me as I can be. Follow the advice in "The Solo Partner" and cease any pursuit. So far this has been effective. When you don't pursue, you don't expect your pursuing to lead anywhere. When the distancer gets uncomfortable, they then start to pursue. I see this dynamic, I'm figuring out how to best make it work.

Maybe the MAP will work. Maybe the Solo Partner will work. Maybe neither will work but I will no longer care because I've found happiness in other ways. Maybe none of it will work and I'll still be unhappy in this relationship. I'm content to withhold on blowing anything up until I've exhausted all avenues. I haven't yet given either the MAP or the Solo Partner stuff enough time to make a difference so there is no immediate decision to be made. My next major reassessment will be when I reach my goal weight and fitness level, and have addressed any non-relationship based sources of dissatisfaction (i.e. work on me as well as I'm going to do it)

This assumes that my marriage is more or less no better and no worse than it is now. When we went on vacation it degraded which had me tipping toward throwing in the towel. Since we've returned it's improved and pulled me back.

To be fair, what are your answers to your own questions?

Accuray

[Crazyville]

A, are you applying the "pursuer cutting off pursuit" advice from the Solo Partner? I thought you believed that would cause her to run.

[Accuray]

A, are you applying the "pursuer cutting off pursuit" advice from the Solo Partner? I thought you believed that would cause her to run.

The ultimatum will cause her to run. If I go cold turkey on cutting off pursuit she will panic. I also don't think it's called for because things aren't that bad. She's not being mean to me, she's not acting badly, etc. etc. Going dark would be overkill right now. I would describe it as throttling back pursuit. If I used to do 10 things, two weeks ago I went down to 8, then 6, now 4, etc.

Historically when I would do that she would pursue a little, then start to panic and have a breakdown which would trigger my pursuing behaviors to start again thus the dance. This time I'm trying to walk the line between cutting back enough to allow her to pursue, but not so much that I push it into panic. It's a tightrope.

She starts asking me what's wrong and I have to keep repeating nothing is wrong and do it in a way that she'll believe and stop asking.

If she thinks something is wrong and I'm not discussing it she starts to get depressed and withdraws. If I over pursue she withdraws, so I have withdrawal on both sides. I've been able to get the "sweet spot" in the past, but I haven't been able to maintain it -- it's either on the way up to overpursuing, or on the way down to depression.

If I can figure it out I'll be in good shape once I can internalize it and do it without massive effort.

Accuray

[Accuray]

Also, as I withdraw my mood normalizes and I'm less affected by her. When I pursue my mood swings in response to her responses. When I withdraw I run a pretty flat line on the good side of happy. There's another tightrope there between being disengaged enough to maintain my mood but not disengaging so much that she feels disconnected. So difficult!

Ideally she'd want more intimacy and we could normalize there which would make me feel better all around, but she doesn't want that.

Accuray

[Crazyville]

Are you just trying to reduce your contribution to match hers so that it's equal, or do you think she'll pursue you some so that you'll eventually get more of what you want?

[Accuray]

I'm trying to do what's suggested in The Solo Partner, The Passion Trap etc. Make the situation feel less controlled, make her feel she needs to work more. "The Passion Trap" says that feelings of being "in love" are directly correlated with feelings of being "out of control". When you first start dating someone, you don't know what they think of you, you don't know if you'll see them again, etc. etc. It's those out of control feelings that make us feel in love and that we have a cause worth pursuing. Once you "sink into marriage" and the uncertainty goes away, the "feelings of love" often follow.

I have observed that when I back off, she will pursue me some. When she does that, it feels good! Historically I would try to encourage that with positive feedback and that would instantly make her stop. I've learned to ignore it / not comment on it and just enjoy it.

Like I say though, if I withdraw too much, then she also withdraws. It's like tuning a drip feed to be just the right amount.

I'm not taking it down to match hers so it will be equal, I'm trying to get my desires for feeling wanted and needed satisfied. If that's not going to happen through sex, let's see how else it can be addressed.

Accuray