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Accuray
You dont verbally complain, but physically and emotionally withdraw, and she senses it for what it is a complaint on her.

She also may not verbally say how dare you make me sad. Yet her actions show it.

Her what's wrong routine shows this. She accuses you of not accepting who she is, while at the same time glossing over the fact that who she is is not very loving. (or not loving enough for you).

She consistently provides the absolute bare minimums then gets shocked and hurt because your not happy. She then withdraws from you to "teach you a lesson".

She knows she can't or won't reciprocate love, so she shifts the argument to be about you not accepting her rather than her not returning the favor.

That makes you the bad guy, and her the victim looking to be loved for who they are.

She, feels entitled to get her needs met, while not responsible for yours.

Stay at 5.

Doing that is a sort of pseudo cognitive therapy. When she meets your needs, meet hers, when she doesn't, don't. Eventually she may realize that she gets her needs met when she meets yours.

Again don't be surprised if she seriously acts out while you cling to five. She may say and do some very nasty things in order to get you to break and go back to 10. Don't be surprised if she goes as far as seeking another EA or PA.

If she claims you drove her to it, then to me it's clear that it was in retaliation for not giving her 10.

If it gets that bad just remember she doesn't give you 10, but you don't act out because of it. So why should she?

Ok last thing, promise:

You said her "asking if everything was ok" was a routine. To me this says she has a script she can rely on to get her way. (whether done conciously or subconciously).

If I remember right you usually either reassure her you are ok, or you tell her the truth to which she then "gets sad about" (IMHO a blatant attempt at guilting you).

Whether my analysis is wrong or right just consider this. If she does a set of actions often enough that you see it as routine then she has to be getting something out of it. Otherwise why would she do it again and again.

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Yes the apologizing and asking what's wrong is a pattern. If she keeps at it long enough, she convinces me something must be wrong and we eventually discuss that, so what I've "trained" her is that if I don't offer something up it's because I'm hiding something.

I caught onto that and have NOT been offering up a "what's wrong" in response. Instead I'll just change the subject and talk about something which makes me happy and that has the effect of not seeming like something is wrong!

Crazy, in my situation some of the things I'm doing are the opposite of what MC 101 would tell you to do. I think it's kind of funny that way. "Be less intimate, if something is wrong don't talk about it, don't look to work through things together, just figure out how to deal with them on your own, etc. etc."

That's the last type of marital advice you'd expect to receive. It's definitely the graduate course.

Accuray


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
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"Doing that is a sort of pseudo cognitive therapy. When she meets your needs, meet hers, when she doesn't, don't. Eventually she may realize that she gets her needs met when she meets yours."

This is key. One golden rule: never be more into an R than your romantic partner.

If you practice it, you learn it's value and gain strength and a GReATER capacity for I timacy


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Thanks Oldtimer,

That's kind of like "relationship chicken" isn't it? Being the last one to be intimate? The challenge would be that if you both play that game you don't have much of a relationship. I assume the goal is to take turns leading and establish balance.

Accuray


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
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Some guys will go as far as claiming to always provide a little less in order to make her chase you.

The key phrase here is emotional investment.

In a lot of WAW cases the LBS is taken for granted because the WAW can't or won't invest themselves in the relationship.

In some cases they don't have to, the LBS does a lot of the heavy lifting.

If I remember right a study showed that partners who felt they worked hard for their relationship were less likely to leave.

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I think you two are already playing, chicken. She just wins so consistently you didn't even see it.

I think the difference is being how you choose to play the game. You can do it without being nasty, or vindictive.

Just return the amount of love she gives to you.

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I would not call it Playing chicken. I would call it respecting the space the other person would like to have in the R. Trust me, this creates more room for intimacy, not less. And it is not a game or manipulation. It is a way of being with others so that everyone has space to know what they want. Of course there is give and take in terms of who tries to change the R in different ways.

Look, you ask someone to go steady, they say no. Three options:

1) end the r
2) go steady by yourself
3) back off a step and see where things go

If you reject (1), (3) is the clear winner in terms of treating all involved well and creating opportunities for a deeper R.


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Accuray, I pulled this from another post...
Quote:
One of my best learnings through this is that I am good enough, and it's my job to convince myself of that. It's not W's job to tell me that I'm worthy or show me that I'm worthy, it's my job to BE worthy, and at that point I don't care if W appreciates that or not.

"BE" is a verb and therefore an action word. I believe you can choose to be "worthy" just like you can choose to be "happy," and do so in spite of your circumstances. At the same time, there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting your circumstances to match what you've chosen to be. ie. you can BE happy, but skiing sure contributes to that in a nice way. So part of choosing to BE happy, would include choosing to DO things that contribute to that. ie. going skiing instead of sitting in a dark corner hitting your thumb repeatedly with a hammer.

So, let's say you want to BE a good H, which I believe you do. By definition, a H is a complementary relationship to a W, it's not just a standalone like be happy or be worthy, so you can't just BE a good H unless there's also a W. And say your definition of being a good H includes DOING things that a good H would do, which I believe it does.

How do you address that desire to be a good H when your W does not facilitate? Forgetting the fact that she doesn't appreciate it, but that she completely rejects it in some ways (eg. kissing, hugging.) Of course, there are many other aspects to being a good H, such as fidelity, financial support, handyman stuff, etc., I'm not trying to discount those.

But would you BE a better H with someone that let you express yourself freely? Does your withholding due to the pursuer/distancer dance you're forced into make you less of a good H? Or perhaps it makes you an even better H because you're going so far above and beyond.

Is your perspective of your being a good H changed because of your circumstances?


Me:49 WAW H:59
T:19.5 M:19
S:13
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Good stuff Crazyville. By stepping back I've gotten the opportunity to observe where W sets the bar in the relationship. She doesn't want no hugging or no kissing at all, she just wants less than I would. She wants a little. She's comfortable when she believes that nothing is expected of her.

I think I often give the impression that she's fairly cold and heartless. That's not true, she doesn't treat me badly. She does care for me, and does want me to be happy -- I believe that. She's also stubborn, sad, proud, and unwilling to change.

When I originally got the bomb, what I interpreted for myself is that I hadn't been a good enough husband. Many of the things I did to address that would look like the right things to do on paper, but were the wrong things in this circumstance given who W was.

When I do things for her and she hasn't been doing anything for me, it makes her feel badly. I can see that. That doesn't make her try to reciprocate because she thinks she can't compete, instead, she just feels badly. When my efforts didn't seem to be making things any better, I would get sad and frustrated.

So in answer to your question, "being a good husband" has a certain meaning to me. "Being a good husband to my wife" has a different set of requirements because of who my wife is. My second IC told me that I would be considered a "dream husband" by most women because of the way I communicate, my self-confidence, happiness, etc. That reinforced for me that I should pursue my own "good husband MAP". That was wrong according to my W's needs.

During this adjustment phase, being a good husband to my wife doesn't feel like being a good husband according to my definition. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm not doing the best I can do in the relationship, and therefore I don't feel good about my efforts. I feel like I'm playing a game versus just living.

I do feel I've gone above and beyond. I feel good about that. Right now I'm spinning a bit, I'm outside of my comfort zone and outside of what I know. That's making me feel badly.

According to "The Solo Partner", when you change things up, the change will make you feel worse just because things are different. It says that you will often get along with your spouse worse than you did before you enacted the change.

The will often lead you to conclude that your changes are causing more problems and you therefore revert to your prior behavior. I've been tempted to do this, but because I now have the knowledge, I'm gritting my teeth and trying really hard to get through what I'm viewing as a transition period to see what comes out on the other side.

Honestly, some days I feel really good. Other days I feel tortured, those are usually the days I post here. I'm feeling really badly today.

Originally Posted By: Crazyville
But would you BE a better H with someone that let you express yourself freely? Does your withholding due to the pursuer/distancer dance you're forced into make you less of a good H?


That's a "grass is greener" perspective I've chosen not to take. Have I been thinking about leaving? Yes. I'm trying to get into the best shape I can get into for two reasons -- to help with how I feel about myself in the current R, and secondly that if it doesn't work out I'm positioned the best I can be to find something new.

That said, I have a lot of fears related to leaving -- welfare of the kids, financial concerns, lifestyle, loneliness, etc. etc. I have also embraced the following:

-- We are attracted to people who "abuse us" in patterns we are familiar and comfortable with
-- We train others how to treat us
-- Our relationships are a reflection of who we are in many ways

Therefore, I'm not confident that my situation would be wildly better with someone new. Many of the same challenges would probably resurface, the old ones with W wouldn't go away because she'll still be in my life, and whatever new woman I were to get involved with would probably contribute some new issues of her own.

Therefore, I don't think leaving is the answer until such time as I have grown beyond seeking the same patterns of abuse and have gotten to a place where I'm not going to be responsible for the same issues in the future that I have been responsible for in the past.

I do realize that in many ways "it's all about me", and that's why I don't think that leaving in the answer right now.

What's tough is that I don't feel safe in this relationship when I take my foot off the gas because I got cheated on. Although low effort and higher distance may be what W wants, that feels to me like driving along the edge of a cliff without a guardrail. That will most likely get better. I think I'm doing very well in terms of not snooping, and not worrying about what W is doing on her business trips, etc. If she wants to cheat on me again, go for it. If I find out, I'm done. There's solace in that, in some ways it would be a relief.

Accuray


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
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Posts: 1,047
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Quote:
Therefore, I don't think leaving is the answer until such time as I have grown beyond seeking the same patterns of abuse and have gotten to a place where I'm not going to be responsible for the same issues in the future that I have been responsible for in the past.

I do realize that in many ways "it's all about me", and that's why I don't think that leaving in the answer right now.

Two things:
1. When you say "it's all about me," are you simply acknowledging your role/contribution and working on that, or are you addressing a selfishness in your R?
2. When you say "until such time," is it because that's your future plan or are you simply considering/doubtful/questioning the viability of living this way long-term? Or perhaps there really is nothing significant to the statement other than face value.


Me:49 WAW H:59
T:19.5 M:19
S:13
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