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Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Originally Posted By: zig
so if your WAS IS hiding the OP - what do you do about it?


There is plenty you can do. Some of which we can't mention here on this forum, but it all comes down to what your own boundaries are. Personally, I am a "I will not share my wife with another man guy." But that's just me.


Starsky


yup...

No sharesies...

pull it back a bit... the only difference between Starsky and I (and I completely respect his choices that led to his R) is a slightly different language and posture at the point of "the question[/i]" of choosing.

Starsky, your W admitted to the OP, correct?

I think when the OP is in the open, requesting a choice with consequences is appropriate.

When the OP is not in the open or there is denial of an A (especially if it is only an EA)... its not a simple matter of asking someone to make a choice of no contact with a [b]suspected
OP...

I am very confident that my W had an EA with OM1 and OM2, even though it may not have become a PA with OM1 (OM2 is gay and is with a partner; doesn't prove anything, just a fact). With OM3, I believe it is also just an EA, even though my W very likely does not view it as such because she actually is unable to be (consciously) emotionally available with anyone at this time...

So if there is overt denial (lying) or covert denial of the A, then requesting no contact might be similar to requesting no contact of an enabler whom they consider (and otherwise would be) a BFF.

IF my W were to admit that there was an OP, I would not ask the question. I would be gone...


Accu, I'm failing to see the distinction.

First, I'm not sure why you keep italicizing "just an EA," as any woman on this (or any other) forum will tell you, only us DAM's make that mistake. For a woman, sharing yourself emotionally with another is just as -- if not MORE -- meaningful, so us guys make the "just an EA" assessment at our peril.

Secondly, no, my wife did not admit to being anything more than "just friends" with her OM, and she continued lying to everyone -- me, our adult daughters, even her own parents -- about it so much that I finally had to do my "stop the deceit" re-confrontation with her, and threaten to share the evidence that I had about her affair with those people if she didn't come clean about it. My thinking was, "I may not be able to stop the affair, but I damned sure wasn't going to just sit here and have her LIE to everyone about it, and try to make ME out like I was crazy," when she and I both knew the nature of her relationship with OM, and she KNEW that I knew.

But even if that were not the case, I don't see where it makes a difference. When you say:

Quote:
When the OP is not in the open or there is denial of an A (especially if it is only an EA)... its not a simple matter of asking someone to make a choice of no contact with a suspected OP...
,

then the only difference is, whether or not you have PROOF, at which point I would say -- if it (an affair) really is a dealbreaker for you -- GET some.

Taking a passive, "there's nothing I can do" approach doesn't work. It enables the affair, it kills attraction, and it saps the betrayed spouse's emotional strength and self-esteem if allowed to continue, in my opinion.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Originally Posted By: Accuray
Originally Posted By: kaffe diem
I would always have a question in the back of my mind if they only chose out of fear, rather than out of desire.


I read about this at length and discussed it with my IC. The conclusion I drew was that your spouse cannot separate the person from the package they represent. Therefore, you can never be confident that they chose you out of desire, and you have to be okay with that

Accuray


I believe in two very basic premises, which framed my decision-making in my sitch, and continues to frame my advice to others:

1. Love is a decision; and

2. Affairs are addictions.


If you believe that, then you won't care about the whole "commitment-vs.-compliance" thing at the early stage -- you will want to try to end the affair and convince the wayward spouse to return to the marriage and work with you on it, together, understanding that the DESIRE may take a looong time to return. Months or even years, depending on the level of pre-affair marital dysfunction, as well as the depth and length of the emotional attachment of the affair partners.

People that say "I want her to WANT to return to the marriage" usually haven't studied much about affairs. They are HIGHLY ADDICTIVE, and your spouse isn't in any condition to want you right now. They're not going to just suddenly "come to their senses" and have strong feelings of desire for you as long as their is another man or woman in their head and heart.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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psst... Starsky... it was me that used the "just" an EA quoting... grin

I thought your wife had admitted the OP. The reason I put emphasize on "just" is as a form of sarcasm. AFAIC, an A is an A but it seems frequently that people downplay an A if it hasn't been physical.

There isn't much of a distinction between what you would do and what I would do, except that while I realized I could forgive an A, I would not ask my W to choose between the OP and I. I would simply be gone. Shoot first, ask questions later.

While I believe that my W had an EA so I'd be hypocritical saying that I'd leave if there was an A (since I stood, for a while), I actually believe my W doesn't recognize an A when it is just emotional. I've met a lot of people in my life that claim that BFFs are not A's even if they interfere with the connection between two spouses.

My W doesn't appear to recognize an EA as an A AND... she believes that love is a choice... so for me, it's a double bind. She didn't have an A but she is choosing to not love me. That denial (of the A), wherever it comes from, has become the choice... addiction or not... in the same way that alcohol makes someone emotionally unavailable. I am sure that being an ACOA is the reason why I will not tolerate an A. I know that it is pointless to try to convince someone (or rationalize with them) that they have an addition.

Anyhow, that's the only real difference I know of between your sitch (Starsky) and mine. And I see that in Shaky's sitch. His W appears to not recognize that she is having an A. And while I've seen and do believe that strategic intervention can work... I don't know that it works with someone who is MLC. A spouse would have to first recognize that they ARE in MLC and then they would have to get THROUGH the MLC and THEN... they might understand or admit (to themselves, first) that they had an A.

On being passive aggressive on an A, like I said in my case that is probably due to my being an ACOA and the frustration that while SI CAN work... it is still the choice and responsibility of the A spouse to admit they "have a problem"... and second, I've seen so much damage due to domestic violence caused by infidelity... I just wouldn't go there...

So just offering my own take on dealing with an A, even if there was proof...

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Actually, let me rephrase that: There IS a difference between what the two of us do in the event of an A. You pushed through it (and I do really applaud you for that and happy it worked for you) and I would walk away from it, no questions asked, it IS a deal breaker.

Would you do it again if your W relapsed (an honest, open question) or if you found yourself with someone else (for what ever reason, your M ended and you were with someone else)? Again, just asking...

Sorry Shaky if this feels like a hijack of your thread. I hope this discussion is helping you decide where you stand and what options you have to choose from.

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KD,

Thanks for the clarification. I am an ACOA myself, and it's amazing how it shapes your thinking on affairs, and those caught up in them. It's all tough stuff.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
Actually, let me rephrase that: There IS a difference between what the two of us do in the event of an A. You pushed through it (and I do really applaud you for that and happy it worked for you) and I would walk away from it, no questions asked, it IS a deal breaker.

Would you do it again if your W relapsed (an honest, open question) or if you found yourself with someone else (for what ever reason, your M ended and you were with someone else)? Again, just asking...

Sorry Shaky if this feels like a hijack of your thread. I hope this discussion is helping you decide where you stand and what options you have to choose from.


It's always hard to know, ahead of time, what will be a "dealbreaker" and what won't. I don't have the data to back it up -- just anecdotal experience -- but I'd wager to say that 80-90% of people in marriages who have never been exposed to infidelity, would say it's an "absolute dealbreaker," and yet once faced with it, it's more like 50/50. It's why, as a sales manager, I never used to ask my female salespeople if they were going to come back to work after having a baby, because how can you possibly answer than question before you've met your child? I found that those that said "Oh, I'll definitely be coming back" would frequently change their minds, whereas those that said "I'll definitely be leaving the workforce and staying home with my child" usually stuck to that.

If my wife had another affair, I'd be 110% done -- dealbreaker. Not so much that I would feel that we couldn't get thru it -- we've shown now that we can -- but just "a" I wouldn't have it in me again, and "b" a serial adulterer is simply a boundary with me, in terms of what it says about the person (vs. a one-time "I really, really screwed up, and got in over my head and handled it poorly" sort of thing).

Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Sorry Shaky if this feels like a hijack of your thread. I hope this discussion is helping you decide where you stand and what options you have to choose from. [/quote]

No, it's all good to me as I value everyone's opinion.


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Wow I missed a lot. Yes, Starsky, I would never categorize an EA as "just" an EA. I am a multiple EA survivor. If you have read the 15 stages of infidelity (or whatever the number is), the only difference between an EA and a PA is really the last two stages, which really isn't much. The damage comes in the emotional connection in either case, the physical side just drives the hurt deeper. Interestingly, my W had 2 "one-nighters" that didn't go all the way, then 2 long term EA's. The one-nighters are more painful in many ways because they are harder to rationalize.

I also agree with Starsky's perspective on the WAS "wanting" to be back in the marriage. They can decide to be back, but they can't make themselves "want" their LBS. It definitely hurts the LBS to feel like "the path of least resistance". The good part is that they're there, so you have a starting line. If you don't let the "easiest option" thing bother you too much you can put it in the rearview and try to build something better, IMO.

My W did not deny having inappropriate relationships, but she does not regret that she did it. She's sorry for how it made me feel, but she's not remorseful. In her rationalization, she was on a path to divorce me, had already detached, so it was okay for her to engage with someone new. Now she views it in the same context as a former boyfriend, or someone who she dated before we met. WAS logic is interesting in some ways and infuriating in others.

I'm still with Shaky, I don't think it's a matter of being naive. We're saying "I can't control W, if she chooses to re-engage in an affair, she's going to. I'm going to do the best I can to make sure the marriage is fulfilling enough to prevent that. If it's not enough, I trust that we'll discuss it next time before it comes to infidelity. If you cheat again, I'm gone."

I do think that W should go no contact with OM, but that's for her to decide and offer, not for Shaky to demand.

Accuray


Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced
M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11
Start Reconcile: 8/15/11
Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced)
In a New Relationship: 3/2015
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Originally Posted By: Accuray

I do think that W should go no contact with OM, but that's for her to decide and offer, not for Shaky to demand.

Accuray



He can't (and shouldn't) demand it (ULTIMATUM). He can (and SHOULD!) only say "I will not remain in this marriage if you continue the contact (BOUNDARY).


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
BD 5/07; W's affair 5/07-8/07

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Originally Posted By: Starsky309

He can't (and shouldn't) demand it (ULTIMATUM). He can (and SHOULD!) only say "I will not remain in this marriage if you continue the contact (BOUNDARY).


Starsky


Thank you for distilling this concept down to this sentence. This is a constant struggle to remember for us rehabilitating controlling fixers.

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