W told me she is done & doesn't love me anymore-P2

[mindfull]

Snowman. One of the notes I made after reading your threads the first time...

- I would bet if you checked phone records, each of the (too) many times she wanted to talk about the possibility of reconciliation, you would find that she had just ended a flurry of calls/txt's w/an affair partner/potential affair partner. Once they made up/she found someone new, she was back to ... WaW mode.

She doesn't like to be alone.
When she's not alone, and feels she has an "upgrade" available, she's in full on Entitled Brat mode.

And, the above reasons that she gives/has for you having son during her visitation time... While its great for you, since you enjoy having him... How do you schedule your life? And, consider this, any worthy, potential mate isn't going to appreciate being constantly on-call, and required to change plans/schedule at the drop of a hat.

I adore my boys. I have always said yes if there's been a problem w/xH having them during his visitation time... But, he also gives me a heads up immediately, and asks if I can make the change, or should he make other arrangements. He knows I'm out living my life.

[Starsky309]

This is just my opinion, but I think your W just played you. She just blamed everything on you, took very little accountability for her own actions and went to the OM.

There definitely were nuggets that she told you, but it seemed like she didn't tell you how important those things meant to her. You're not a mindreader so many times you didn't know.

And on the other side, the OM is being "sympathetic" and saying how brave she is to do what she did, etc. BS. He's waiting in the wings for her. She doesn't realize that she's STILL being controlled. Just by someone else.

Someone who has strong self-esteem fesses up and takes their responsibilities, not blame someone else and go to someone else for the exact same reasons she claims is hurting her. The irony is overwhelming.

Couldn't agree more.


Snowman needs to remove himself as his wife's Backup Plan. Time for her to put on her BGPs, and to pursue whatever it is she thinks she wants.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

I accept that my comments might have been a little vague...

My boundary is NO open M... and I accept that it is SM's boundary as well... if it is... I sounds like it is...

I'm just saying that how he enforces that boundary... it could appear that the changes weren't for real, to his W...

I don't know how else to express it with words...

aside to say... if SM is changing his behaviour for himself, regardless of whether the M is saved... and those changes are to not attempt to control or manipulate his W...

then his actions in regards to enforcing his boundaries would be expressed that way... rather than...

"W, because you are back with OM, I refuse to talk to you any more..."

and instead be in the frame of something like...

"W, I need to step back from our situation for a while and consider what I want..."

Maybe that makes better sense regarding the how?

But in the end, if he wanted to tell his W to get the duck out... I would certainly support and accept his decision to do so...

This makes sense. It is the difference between an "ultimatum" (other-focused) and a "boundary" (self-focused).

An ULTIMATUM is "You must stop seeing OM, and come back to the marriage!" A BOUNDARY is "You are a grown woman, and can do what you want to do; please understand, however, that I cannot live in an open marriage."


Starsky

[25yearsmlc]

"then it will show her that your "changes" are a ploy to win her back..."

This isn't true.

The conversation was based on total honesty between the two of them and that they were both on equal footing.

agree to disagree w/that^^^


Having an OP complicates matters and is an unfair variable against Snow


true^^^

. He has apologized for his past behavior and has shown his changes.


agree to disagree on this^^. I don't know the changes SHE sees. Snow sounds nearly as angry in his posts as before.


He's put in the effort. She, on the other hand, is seeing another guy behind his back. Not equal.

Disagree with the former, agree with the latter.

But bottom line is, what is he to do now?

[MrBond]

Hmmm. Good question.

Well we know that the OM is validating and being sympathetic to everything the W is saying and she's refusing to "get over" past mistakes. First off, I would suggest that when she gets on the rant about those hurts AGAIN, that snow very firmly reminds her that those are things that happened in the past and will not be defined by them.

Personally I would confront her and do the "I will not share my W" speech and say that he will not be the focus of all the woes in the M. She's owned up to a very small part of the problems. But as long as she has the OM, she will always be "right".

[25yearsmlc]

Okay let's brainstorm a bit...maybe the

"As I said, If I had it to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently"

and if needed, combine with

"the past is over. I have owned my part & let go of my anger for pain I felt. (that is to make the point that he CAN get past the A and that it's worth trying to rebuild the trust or she won't bother, frankly)...

"I am working on not repeating my mistakes w, so Why not focus on our plan for going into the future, "from this day forward"??


and Snow, at least paint something positive and specific in that plan so she can envision it. "Doing finances together" is important but vague. Can you "plan for/go on a trip she wanted? OR "spend more time together b/c now you won't work Saturdays", etc...(just hypotheticals, but those are details that would appeal to me as a "quality time" love language person. What is her love language anyhow? Whatever it is, try to target those needs. Make sense?


IMO---I'd keep the "lose the OM" speech separate (not saying it a month later, just not at the exact same time)

b/c I think she does need to hear something positive about their future together with some details included...that she can feel good/safe about BEFORE she has to give up on what she sees as her shot at happiness with OM.

Of course OM has to go. Not sure when to say it, but if it's all connected isn't that a bit tactical looking? You say no Bond but hear me out.

Here's what I mean-

In the DB moderator's section they have some "Classics" of posts by people. One that I've posted, here I think, was from a WAW to her LBS. She felt that

her LBH only made noticeable changes in himself, after he learned of her OM.

In their m, he'd been very critical and demeaning and she'd checked out long ago. He wanted her back and could not "grasp" why she would not return since he'd changed, or said he had.

But she feared the only reason her LBH wanted her back at all, was "to win"? Or at least mostly. IF so, he'd revert as soon as she returned.

She felt that way b/c he never bothered much with improving himself or even focussing on himself, until there was an OM in the picture.

I think DB moderators put in the "classics" section b/c it does represent a type of situation we see a lot around here.

And if Snow makes the "LOSE THE OM" speech at the same time as he makes efforts towards improving himself (traits which he agrees need working on anyhow)

then it seems less effective to me than keeping them separate.

For ME, seeing him make a change that is signficant enough for HER to recognize and acknowledge,

would naturally lead to her making a choice.

I thinkk she's mostly well intentioned (to the extent you guys believe that it is even possible) but even so

she'll pause b/c she won't trust Snow's changes.

And if she's just evil and manipulative, then she'll stall longer.

But if given the choice, I'd rather stand for my m a bit too long, than quit a bit too early. Is he risking that much more by trying a bit longer?

Snow you can tell her you are "a work in progress but have already grown from this."

that you are already becoming a better h for whomever you end up with

and you sure hope that's your, w.

As for OM...on one hand, he does have to go, obviously. But there is no reason for her to give him up if she believes you won't ever let it go, & it'll always hang over her head.

That score keeping thing may haunt her/you.

What about saying something like

"I look forward to us being past all this - But I can't share you with OM, so
we need to be on the same page

-- if you feel compelled to be w/OM, then we can part ways now in peace, and do right by our son..."

(I say it's an ultimatum, Bond says it's a boundary, but that may be semantics. Either way she's being asked to choose)

Snow-ONLY SAY THIS stuff If you are fully truly deeply prepared for her to feel cornered, or unimpressed by the new improved you, and her choosing him,

if you are, then so be it.


But also be ready for her to say "okay Snow, let's try" and then

you sure better have a plan for that as well...Like "Okay first off, let's decide TOGETHER if we'll live here or there, and..." so forth.

Make sense?

PS-

Oh and send the dang letter. If it's from the heart, at this point, What do you have to lose?

[~ kd ~]

SM, one last thing from me on this (at least for now)...

Right now, from where I stand this still remains a sitch which is very W focused...

This is no longer about your W, what she thinks, what she does...

Your boundary is set. No sharing of W... but... she's not yours to share...

So... keep working on you, because you want to be sure that you won't be controlling or manipulative of your next W... and you will be attentive to her needs, as you haven't been with your current...

You need to tell your W nothing about why you no longer want anything to do with her...

because... she claims she's done with you...

change yourself to change your sitch... and for a better future...

[Snowman]

Wow, I'm astounded by all the response and want to thank everyone up front for all the feedback.

Before I respond to all the various posts I will give my perspective on this as I have thought about what is happening and has happened.

I think Mindfull and others are right as far as me being played. I'm pretty sure this is the 2nd if not 3rd time this has happened. Fool me once shame on her, fool me twice shame on me, fool me thrice shame on us seems fitting for all this. I really think that when my W has someone waiting on the sideline she wants a D and when the guy wises up and leaves her she suddenly wants to talk about maybe working on things. I have had various conversations with her throughout the months and see many men's numbers go through our cell records that come and go as well as pictures that got posted by accident on Facebook before she blocked me, my family, and my friends. She never really had much to say in the past conversations kind of like this one. She has already admitted her communication problem before as well. As I mentioned before there is now a new number that popped up from her last running trip and now she is acting cold to me again in communication again through text.

Mr. Bond is right about the irony because it seems she is being controlled by other men and I feel like she is controlling me or manipulating me. I don't think my wife has a strong self esteem and is always chasing things that people are doing to claim as here own. I have talked about that in earlier posts.

Ok I will try to somewhat respond to it all.

I'm prepared to talk to her about what has been mentioned by 25yearsmlc, Bond, and others that have posted because it is time to buck up or shu* up and I'm ready for whatever the results bring. I'm really not confrontational or outspoken type of guy so this is not my thing but I really feel it is necessary and that I have beat around the bush long enough in a timid manner. I'm not saying I'm going to talk to her guns a blazing I'm just saying I'm ready to have this go one direction or another.

If I'm reading this all correctly your suggesting to talk about my changes in one conversation with examples of things to do with her love language which is "Words" and talk about the OM in another conversation?

At the beginning of my stitch I questioned numerous times about OMs which she denied. I questioned some more about OMs later and she denied it. There is now another OM and she has a close friend who went through a D that started dating OMs before her D was over as well as her father who cheated. I don't say that to blame them just to point out these are the people she confides in for advice and examples. I really think that she will deny any other man again if I do say something and I would have to say something like I can provide evidence if necessary for her to admit it. I know this sounds like trying to be right but I really think she will just deny it again and brush it off as she has done with everything else that she will not own up to.

I will send the dang letter already . Kaffe Diem-I truly do want to change for me because that's what I want for me and who ever my future spouse is.

25yearsmlc-Thanks for such a detailed and LONG posts. You make a person think and always have very well thought out advice as do many who have posted on my stitch. I need time to digest it all and formulate my approach as suggested.

[mindfull]

I must have missed a page in your thread somewhere...

What are you sending a letter to her for?

You just had this "conversation" with her, w/her discussing the possibility (again) Of reconciliation, but listing mostly YOUR faults... only to be followed by constant contact w/an OM.

I'm clearly missing something.

There's a time for validation. There's a time for independence.

[Starsky309]

At the beginning of my stitch I questioned numerous times about OMs which she denied. I questioned some more about OMs later and she denied it. There is now another OM and she has a close friend who went through a D that started dating OMs before her D was over as well as her father who cheated. I don't say that to blame them just to point out these are the people she confides in for advice and examples. I really think that she will deny any other man again if I do say something and I would have to say something like I can provide evidence if necessary for her to admit it. I know this sounds like trying to be right but I really think she will just deny it again and brush it off as she has done with everything else that she will not own up to.

"Questioning" infidelity is pointless. People caught up in affairs will LIE about it (or "trickle truth" you to death), every single time, and it only makes you appear weak and defensive.

Either confront her with a "Look, I know all about these other men, and I cannot live in a marriage like this" or STFU (sorry to be so blunt). It never ceases to amaze me how many betrayed spouses basically ASK the fox "Did you raid the henhouse last night?"

Me? I'd rather be a sheepdog.


Starsky