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any chance you could get her to go to Retrovaille?

Maybe say it'll help co-parent, and don't make it about pressuring her to work on the marriage.

Getting her there is what counts. The marriage WILL be helped, no matter why she goes.

Otherwise, you sounded vague in some ways (like not having a real plan for improving the marriage, w/ nothing specifically different or new about how things would improve.

With no examples of a new behavior even discussed or given, it makes it harder for her to envision it being better. Know what I mean?)

But hey, you did validate and concede things that need to be worked on. You must have done it enough for her to feel comfortable saying SHE has to work on communications. That's good.

So you sent the message or planted a seed in her head that you are working on being less controlling. (You did not send a letter at all, correct?)

So make sure you Don't undermine the message you sent her about what you are working on in yourself.

And see if there's anyway you can get to Retrovaille. Are you familiar with it? It's a weekend marriage retreat for marriages in crisis. There are "host" couples there who tell their stories and regardless of your problems, THEIR stories will make your marriage problems pale in comparison...at least that's how it felt to us.

We saw stable solid couples talking about their marriages in positive ways - but they had been through hell and back. Some had lost children to drugs or car accidents or even murder, OR had out of wedlock babies, declared bankruptcy, or all of the above.

But there they were at Retrovaille, together, helping US work on our marriages.

I've seen it work miracles on marriages that expected to end soon...and are still alive.

After 2 years, over 80% of attendees are still married. Considering how troubled their marriages were when they went, that is saying a lot.

hang in there...


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Snowman...

I'm not saying you don't have anything to work on, but...
Originally Posted By: Snowman
Ok, well the conversation was had. She wanted to meet at a park so our S could play but that ended up just being a distraction most of the time as he was dragging us both to go down the slide or play soccer with him.

W: She said that she thinks that she wants to go ahead with the papers as is.
Me: I said ok and ask why she said that part of her wants to work on it and why.
W: She said that she doesn't want to work on it for the wrong reasons like finances or missing my family.
Me: I said I agree you should not do it for those reasons.
W: I know we have been good friends lately but I just don't know if there is anymore than that.
Me: I agree we have been good friends of lately. Would you like to explore that at all?
W: I'm not sure, I just don't think I want to put myself in that situation.
The conversation is very broken up as we are trying to play with my S and have this conversation.
Me: Well I know and have learned that I have been controlling and emotionally neglectful. What exactly don't you want to get back into or could you explain that to me (I can't remember the exact words I said but something like that).
W: Exactly that. I don't want to be in that situation of control again.
Me: I have learned a lot about my control problem and agree that I did control many things in our marriage like finances and time.
(I said other examples of this)
W: Thats why I hid purchases from you.
Me: I understand that.
W: You never showed appreciation for my cooking and always complained about me buying things to cook.
Me: I agree I didn't show the amount of appreciation I should have. I really do like your cooking. This stems back to the control issue of money as well. (I will say that we were trying to save money to move and have her be a stay home W during this time. I didn't say that of course).
W: I love cooking and enjoy doing it for people. You just never seemed to appreciate it.
Me: I apologize and should have showed my appreciation.
W: I never felt support in running either. In face I had a buddy at work come to one of my races which I know is creepy and I never told you that but I wish you would have showed up to it.
Me: I know I should have supported you more in running. I will say that when the races were early it makes it hard make with our son.
W: I know that but you could of made it to the race that was the multi-leg race.
Me: True I should have.
W: I know people think that I just want to hang out with my friends and party but that is not true and I only hang out with them once a month.
Me: I don't think that and really don't know what you do.
W: Since I have moved into my place by myself it has been lonely at time but I have been happy not being told what to do or worry about that.
Me: I can understand that and I have been happy as well. I know I have a control issue and have discussed with my counselor as well as my sister (my BIL and sister had a separation that they worked through, control issue on my sisters part and issues on my BIL part) about my control issue. I know telling you this is just words of me saying I have recognized my control issue but I can only tell that I have for now and this was going to be part of my letter to you. I would like to try and show you but that is up to you. I know my family has a control issue and I don't want to be like that. It bothers me when I see it. This is how BIL and sister had to deal with in their marriage issues (we know quite a bit about their issues they had).
W: I know your other sister's husband is able to deal with it and is ok but that is not me and I don't like it.
Me: I agree, I don't like it either and it bothers me as well. I don't want to be like that and my recent vacation with them showed me how it was again and it bothers me.
At this point our S is getting very fussy because it is his nap time and so she says that she will bring drive back to the house to finish the conversation after we put him down for a nap. we eventually get him down and continue our conversation.
Me: I know that I have had a control issue that I think is the steam of my problems that I have had in our relationship. I can only say that I know that and have learned that through this experience. I know I can only say this to you as I unable to show you but I am aware of my problem. I wanted to share this with you for sometime but have been unable to. I think this is a product of my environment growing up as I did live in a controlling environment and I see how it has affected my siblings. I don't want to be that person not matter how this turns out.
W: [/color]I know I have my communication issues as well and other things to work on as well.[color:#3333FF]
Me: I think both of us are have these issues from our raising.
W: I agree completely.
Me: I would like to be give this a try to show you which I know may sound superficial. I don't want to control you or pressure you. This is your decision as it is mine. I'm not sure what the first step would be if we did work on this but I would like us to make a decision and take the first step if you decide. I appreciate you talking to me and setting this up.
W: I appreciate you talking as well. I will think about what we have talked about and let you know.

We talked about some logistics for the week with our S and then she left. This is not all the exact words and things from the conversation but the bulk of it. I posted honestly what was said. Please give your feedback, the good and the bad. I will try to take it in stride smile.


Note how many things/amount of time spent talking about what you did wrong. (In black)
Note how many things/amount of time spent talking about what she did wrong. (In blue)

I believe in being forgiving, IF your forgiving someone forgivable.

I still don't see any remorse for straying from your marriage. She's just bent on explaining her reasons for not sticking around to fix it vs. looking elsewhere for her quick fix.

I feel your pain in trying.


Me-46, D-21, S15, S13

After many years w/my head in the sand...
I FILED
Divorced 6/2011

The average woman would rather have beauty than brains, because the average man can see better than he can think.
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25yearsmlc-I have no idea if I could get her to a Retrouvaille. She was always resistant of going to marriage counseling in the months past and she told me she will not go to MC unless she has decided to work on the marriage. I think she would say the same thing if I asked her to go to Retrouvaille but it can't hurt to present it to her.

As far as examples of how things would be different I told her how I would like to have our finances if we were together again. That when she mentioned the hiding of various purchases. I told her I have tried during much of this separation to not be controlling cause I know that was my problem and that when I asked or talked to her that I fear that it may be perceived as controlling. I remember her saying in another conversation that she thought I was screening her calls to our S which was not the case but she perceived it that way. I didn't really go into other examples because they are future examples that could happen but have not. I agree I could have provided more and will think about that.

I did not send her the letter. I told her much of the conversation in my letter was discussed today but I would finish it. Are you saying not to send it?

Mindfull-

I agree that I did more talking about what I did to contribute to our M problems. I didn't really see much remorse either. She may be going back and forth with whatever the next guy she maybe pursuing. Her phone records indicate that there is probably another guy in the picture from her last running trip. People on here have said that other guys are just a symptom of the real problems. I don't know that for sure and it is very very disheartening.

My W has to work late the day she is suppose to pick up my S so I will be watching him extra for her which I don't mind but you get the point. She has her soccer coaching training so that will be more time parenting our S for her on a day she should have him. Last she has to take her car in for a tuneup so she will probably be late getting our S again. I hate to complain about getting my S or parenting but her schedule is controlling mine I guess. I feel like I walk a fine line of of trying to be nice but not being abused as a doormat especially when my S is involved.

I really am trying to be a good man despite my W's decisions. I don't claim to have been a perfect husband but I can say I am changing and will continue to no matter what way this goes. I know I will not continue this marriage without serious counseling which I told her as well. We both agreed our old marriage is dead and did not want it.

Another interesting thing she said was we could maybe go through with the D and if we end up working things out we could get back together. I said I didn't want to do that and would rather try now if we were going to try. I'm not sure what her comment is suppose to mean but that seems weird or suspicious to me.

Anyway, I will see if she actually responds to my question of making a decision of wanting to work on it or not after this conversation.


Me:29
W:28
S:2
M: 5 years
Bomb: 7-26-11
Separated: 8-20-11
EA w/ multiple OMs
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Yes, I agree that you spent a lot of time talking, although what I saw was that you validated her (great) and that you were clear (many times; oh well, still great) about what you considered your issues and how you recognized them and were addressing them in various ways.

The fact that you describe one instance of your W indicating what she felt was her issues... as far as I'm concerned... that was great... because as far as I can remember, that is actually the first and only time she has done so... so in all fairness, it is a baby step, but probably she would consider it a giant step.

Honestly, I respect that others are suggesting you man up... and I would agree in the sense that you need to hold to your boundaries...

The rest of it... well, maybe you spent a lot of time in the convo being the "nice guy", but I believe you would really be able to suggest that your controlling was a huge part of your M of the past...

From where I stand... let her sit on the convo... she may or may not slow down... or change her mind... much... but it appears better to me than how it was in the beginning...

Keep doing what you are doing and perhaps it is time to start considering how you see yourself in a new M with your W... and... with compassion and respect for your W... what would deal breakers be for you and what boundaries you might set...

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Wow, my W just had a 54 minute conversation with the new guy who's first name I know now and is the new guy I mentioned in the post above. Well I now really wonder if her back and forth is really just her back and forth with her various relationships she has had during our separation. I'm probably just being played like a fiddle. I'm the stupid spouse that keeps taking her back for moments at a time, seriously. Is this her calling to ask him or get validation to end her marriage with me and go with him? Oh well I put my cards on the table, if she wants to play is up to her. It hurts when she does this after I have put what I feel are my problems out on the table and she did not (I know I shouldn't look but this is all I have as a source to what is going on). Tomorrow is another day.


Me:29
W:28
S:2
M: 5 years
Bomb: 7-26-11
Separated: 8-20-11
EA w/ multiple OMs
W filed 1/2012
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This is just my opinion, but I think your W just played you. She just blamed everything on you, took very little accountability for her own actions and went to the OM.

There definitely were nuggets that she told you, but it seemed like she didn't tell you how important those things meant to her. You're not a mindreader so many times you didn't know.

And on the other side, the OM is being "sympathetic" and saying how brave she is to do what she did, etc. BS. He's waiting in the wings for her. She doesn't realize that she's STILL being controlled. Just by someone else.

Someone who has strong self-esteem fesses up and takes their responsibilities, not blame someone else and go to someone else for the exact same reasons she claims is hurting her. The irony is overwhelming.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
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SM, if you react outwardly in a negative way towards your W due to this "revelation" that you became aware of, then it will show her that your "changes" are a ploy to win her back...

As tough as it is (and I know it is tough, I still live it), here's the thing...

YOU DO NOT have your W's heart, right now...

Your M is already dead...

Now... if your BOUNDARY is to not be involved with someone who is not exclusive with you... or someone who is "playing the field"... then walk...

You do not need to instruct her why... it is not the words, it is the actions...

And if she looks your way... if she questions your behaviour... then she can decide what she wants...

IF you had expectations... then it will show in your next actions...

If you had NO expectations... then you can keep moving forward...

Your choice... either way...

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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Mindful

I don't want to hijack Snow's thread.

But lest you put me in some "feminist" or anti male categoy, think again.

See my post to Navy or Denver, or Rick or WAS2Sad or at least 5 other men I post to regulary. See how it really is.

I am as fair as I can be and on the whole-

I probably encourage & advise more men than women,

and call more women on their poop than men.


True Dat! wink

Denver


M 43
X 38
T 13
W moves out of home 11/2010
Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012
I request divorce 5/2012
W moves home 6/2012
Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015
I leave 3/2016
process of divorce
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"then it will show her that your "changes" are a ploy to win her back..."

This isn't true.

The conversation was based on total honesty between the two of them and that they were both on equal footing. Having an OP complicates matters and is an unfair variable against Snow. He has apologized for his past behavior and has shown his changes. He's put in the effort. She, on the other hand, is seeing another guy behind his back. Not equal.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
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I accept that my comments might have been a little vague...

My boundary is NO open M... and I accept that it is SM's boundary as well... if it is... I sounds like it is...

I'm just saying that how he enforces that boundary... it could appear that the changes weren't for real, to his W...

I don't know how else to express it with words...

aside to say... if SM is changing his behaviour for himself, regardless of whether the M is saved... and those changes are to not attempt to control or manipulate his W...

then his actions in regards to enforcing his boundaries would be expressed that way... rather than...

"W, because you are back with OM, I refuse to talk to you any more..."

and instead be in the frame of something like...

"W, I need to step back from our situation for a while and consider what I want..."

Maybe that makes better sense regarding the how?

But in the end, if he wanted to tell his W to get the duck out... I would certainly support and accept his decision to do so...

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