Now I think that original title was too specific and too ambitious. If I've learned anything since I've been here, it's that the work I'm doing will bring good results, but I don't know whether the results will include still being married to my H. Also that I should be focusing on the shorter term, what can I do know that will accomplish a specific goal, and celebrate that success. So, now I'm just "Hoping"...
I just got back from this week's MC and I think it went great. H had lunch plans but he made it to the appointment. T always asks us what we want to talk about, and H didn't have any suggestions, so I suggested parenting issues and how we're doing with what we've learned so far.
I learned a few months ago that H did not like the way I handled chores and allowance. Instead of shutting the conversation down like before, I've tried having an extended conversation where we revisit it now and then to see if we're getting closer to agreement. I ditched my old allowance chart system, discussed with the boys that they'd be paid only once a month, which they liked, and that they are just expected to do their chores without a chart, which they agreed to. I think it's been going pretty well but there were two things to talk about:
(1) H put two trash bags on top of S13 who had overslept. This was to indicate trash needed to go outside, S13's chore. S13 overslept bc he was up very late doing homework, and he barely made it out to the bus on time. So when I saw the trash I took it out and texted him that I did it and now he needed to earn back his allowance. I said if he went to Boy Scouts that evening that would satisfy me. So he did. I thought that was a success because I tied allowance to chores, and when I gave him an alternate to make it back up he did what I wanted, win win. Plus I showed effort in doing what H wanted, and the trash got taken away. Skip to next item.
2) H interrupted me while I was asking S13 to do his chore of putting away clean dishes. I usually tell them "if you do it right now I'll help and if you do it later I won't." I like to do that because it gives them an incentive to start immediately, and because it's nicer to do chores together and we get a chance to talk while we do it. I made the mistake of saying "if you want to do..." and H interrupted from upstairs to say "No WANT. You'll Do it NOW. I WANT you to do it now! W, don't GIVE him a choice." etcetera. So S13 did it then while I helped. If H hadn't said anything, there would have been the same outcome. But I thought maybe we need to discuss that more because he clearly didn't agree with how I was handling the dishes chore.
It was a great session. I got blasted for being indulgent and for bribing the kids instead of getting them to accept responsibility. H got blasted for his insistence that everyone should do what he wants simply because he wants them to, and exactly when he says. T noted that that tends to bring out oppositional behavior, and I could agree that it had had that effect on me too over the years. We agreed on some things in principle, that we want the kids to grow up responsible and doing what they're supposed to. We will compromise on when things need to be done: we decided we'd establish deadlines and let the kids choose when they would do their jobs within the deadlines. We both agreed that things needed to be done simply because we're all in a family and we all need to contribute, which to me is a lot more reasonable than "because I say so". We agreed that I won't bail S13 out by doing his chores anymore. I won't help with the dishes either but I can still sit and talk with him. There was more but the overall point was that we are capable of working out agreements with the kids that make us both feel like we're on the same page.
We also talked more about the allowance system and we'll be changing it again. We got a chance to witness and discuss how H comes out of the gate belligerent. He was saying how he'd like to present the new system where some things the kids get because they do things around the house, and his voice got loud and sarcastic as he said "I don't exactly WANT to drive you to the mall and buy you stuff and if you don't WANT to do the cleaning I'm not going to WANT to do what you want me to do..." His point is valid but he makes me feel oppositional when I hear it, like he's just assuming they're going to fight us on this before he's even explained it. T told him to try to start out nicer and save that tone for when it's needed. So it will have more effect.
I believe this helped because parenting is one of the hopeless issues I feel he's writing us off over. Maybe doing more sessions like this will help us get to where we can solve these problems on our own. It also helped because we didn't talk at all about divorce or separation or how he's feeling or how hurt I am. It was just practical and positive. Even the things we were criticized for were positives because we were learning better how we come across and can take control over that.
The other good thing was that by not focusing on our relationship there was no threat for him, no need to resist participating fully - we'll want to be coparents whether we end up together or apart. In my view, if we can see change in that arena it might open the possibility to him that we can create change in other areas too.
That's it about our T appt but I also want to journal about my GAL / 180 activities. I went with S11 to visit our out of town friends over the long weekend last weekend. I had a great time, but missed being home by Monday. I joined a meetup group and went on a hike with them Tuesday. Brought a friend, but most of the others were there on their own. Got good exercise, saw a new place, and enjoyed the company. Will try it again. Did all the dishes and cleanup before leaving for the weekend (and again when I got home). Not doing so well getting to the gym, but will try to get back into it and back on track. I keep forgetting that if I get back in the dating scene I'll feel better if I get in better shape. When I remember that, I feel down. But then, when I do work out I feel good so I'll just go for that. Just gotta keep trying.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
My son has not been doing his homework in school and my W and I disagreed about how to handle it. She wanted to offer him a reward if he gets his homework done, whereas I wanted to deprive him of things for NOT getting his homework done -- kind of resonated with your interaction with your H about chores.
My view is that there are certain things the kids should be expected to do as a baseline, as a member of the family -- I don't think you get rewarded for those. Then, there are things you can do to go above and beyond, and for that you get a reward.
I say this because these were my "core beliefs" coming into the marriage. These weren't things that W and I discussed up front, they were unspoken assumptions that I had based on how I was raised. It didn't occur to me to discuss them because (a) I felt that was the "right" way to think and (b) I held them so deeply I didn't want to have them challenged.
The IC I go to is also a child psychiatrist, so I talked it over with her. She told me that my W was actually right, that inventives are more effective than punishment. So much for my core beliefs -- I need to rethink them! I need to discuss that philosophy with my W, and see where we can reach agreement, maybe we're not that far off.
Reading over your post there were two things that struck me:
1) You and H are working on differences in your parenting in front of the kids which I'm sure you appreciate is not ideal. Have you discussed that? (i.e. H says one thing and you say another, or you say one thing and then H demands something different -- not good for the kids to witness)
2) By taking out the garbage for S13, you were undermining H, who put garbage bags on him to make a point -- that it was not OK to forget to take out the garbage. You then came in and said it WAS OK, you'll clean up the mess, so H's opinion there didn't really matter. That's what S13 is going to walk away with -- Dad got mad, but Mom made it all better for me.
I can totally appreciate your perspective, it makes perfect logical sense, but as the father, that would trigger me emotionally.
First of all, if H put full bags of garbage on S13, that's probably not an acceptable thing to do. I couldn't tell if they were empty garbage bags or full ones. That's probably something to talk about.
Secondly, if you disagreed with H's approach because S13 was up late doing homework, from my perspective it would have been better to call H and discuss it with him, tell him you planned to take out the garbage yourself and let S13 make it up in another way, and let him weigh in on it. Maybe let H call S13, tell him that he needed to remember to take out the garbage, but that this time Mom was going to do it for him -- let H deliver the message since he started the dialog.
Historically, you were the LD partner, that meant that you controlled the relationship in many ways. You controlled the frequency of ML, when affection was acceptable, etc. That can leave H feeling powerless / inadequate / un-manly and resentful.
When H tries to make rules for the kids, or set expectations, and you undermine them, once again you're taking away his control, making him feel less manly, hurting his self-esteem.
I'm definitely not saying "love, honor and obey", nor am I saying that H should make the rules in the house. What I am saying is that when H makes a mandate for the kids that you disagree with, be very careful about undermining it. If you don't agree, work it out with H privately, and have H be the one to go back to the kids with a different position. This allows him to save face and still be able to state his will.
I don't always agree with W, but when she says something to the kids that I don't agree with, I just back her up. My position is "do what your mom says". In private, I will talk to W about my position, and agree on what we're going to do going forward, but in the moment, the call is always "back her up".
If you just fundamentally disagree with how H parents, feel he's too strict, unreasonable, etc., one thing to consider would be to go to a family practice counselor. Men defer to authority. Right now it's you versus him, and some things he's just not going to yield on, even if he *knows* he's being unreasonable because he's trying to hang onto his identity, or may have non-negotiable core beliefs.
If you tell him that you feel you need to do a better job parenting together, that you know that some of the ways you're looking at things may not be the right way, and that you'd like to speak to an expert together, you may get him there. In that context, H will be more likely to be reasonable IMO, and you may make some progress.
No one wants to go to yet more therapy, but in my experience, poking at the core beliefs is dangerous business, and best done with a neutral 3rd party who H respects as an expert.
Just my $0.02 from the other side of the fence!
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Accuray, I came in to post about something else and found your post - thank you! Good stuff.
You're absolutely right and it's cost me $$$ in therapy to find these things out. First that core beliefs we had can be incorrect - or at least require some compromise so we can reconcile them. My H had been so incommunicative I didn't even know or notice that I was undermining him, making him resentful, etc. Same with the LD - he never indicated in any way that it bothered him, even if I discussed ways we could get more on the same page he had nothing to contribute so I figured we were OK, he was probably just as "tired" or "busy" as I was. I've learned that my assumptions were wrong, and that my husband is not what he on the surface appears to be, and that I need to do the work to dig deeper and find out how he really feels about things. It's been painful and confusing, but I'm up to it, I want to learn this and do better.
I completely accept that it was wrong of me to take out the trash - you and my T and my silent H all agree on that and I agree too. I thought I was working within my H's system and I was actually not. But - what's new is that I knew to bring it up in T and get feedback since I don't get feedback within the situation from H. So at least I've made that much progress...and the feedback was loud and clear, and I learned from it. Hopefully my H at least noticed the change that I was questioning whether I understood him correctly and was open to hearing that I had not.
I think the parenting differences could be key for us. If we can figure out to communicate better about these issues and feel better about each other as a result, I think things could start to turn around for us. At the very least though, we'd be better parents.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
So here's what I came in to post. I've become obsessed with looking at photos on FB of an exBF from college and thinking about contacting him now that we have one connection in common through FB, a mutual friend who found and friended me about a month ago.
I feel like I'm already in a Judd Apatow movie so why not one more stupid cliche added to the mix?
I'd like a 2x4 please.
It's not that I even really want to pursue him; I think I just want to recapture a time in my life when everything was ahead of me and life was rosy and someone was passionately head over heels for me. He said we were soul mates.
There's a reason I didn't stay with him, and I'd make the same decision again. But I keep fighting the impulse to write him to just say hi and how has life been for you these past 20 years.
Yeah, a 2x4.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
H left this morning on business, out of the country until the day after our anniversary.
Feeling a little like a phony being the one here to receive the anniversary wishes from my parents and our friends. I'll have to practice a breezy thanks.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
I've done the FB thing a couple times but kept it friendly. When I felt it might be getting too personal, I asked ex to share our correspondence with her H and that has always shut things down or taken it away from "the line". It's an extremely slippery slope if ex starts to escalate. It WILL make you feel good to flirt, and that can be addictive.
You've been putting in tremendous effort and it will be harder to do so if you give yourself an out. If ex responds positively to you and H does not, you see where that will lead in terms of your state of mind.
The other option is that ex does not escalate or show any inclination to flirt, and that also makes you feel poorly, that feeling you had in your past that you were expecting to recapture doesn't come, and then you just feel worse.
So how does ex work well on FB? When neither of you care that much, it's totally casual, it's maybe a smile or a laugh and you're done for the next year or so. How likely is that an outcome with your current state of mind?
You sound like a great woman to me, my advice would be to stay away from ex, continue to DB, and consider reaching out to him at the point where either everything is great with H, or you have decided to go your separate ways. I don't think you can ride the fence on DB, you're either in or your not.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Ditto that. Don't do it. No matter how casual it may seem (or that you tell yourself it is), there will likely be a good emotional outlet there - one that has a history. As negative things occur you may start relying more and more on that good outlet and sharing less good things with your H. This is a slippery slope to an EA.
Why on earth would you want to go down this path? Do you or do you not want to save your M? If you are going to start searching for affirmation on FB, then I would suggest you stop your DB efforts, sign off the forum and go for it.
OTOH, if you really want to continue to work on you and maybe, just maybe get your M back on track then...
PUT THE GUN DOWN!!!
Me51 W53 S17 S14 M22 T25 Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11
It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.
Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife
Thanks, I needed to hear that. I think self-discipline needs to be one of my 180s.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
adinva, I agreee with the others. Don't go there. Keep the boundary where it is today. The more you inch the boundary outward, the higher the chances of reaching a point of no return you'll eventually regret.
