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Just an FYI... although words have DICTIONARY meaning, they can often have a different perceived meaning to anyone who sees or hears them...

As do actions...

I believe it's very important to understand the difference between you doing something intended to get your W back, you doing something because you want to do it for yourself, and your W's interpretation of why you are doing what you are doing...

If you want to do all the chores in the house, then by all means... do all the chores in the house... just don't do them because you think you will help save your M... do them because you want to become a better man how likes to keep a tidy house... and what ever perception your W might have regarding your new found responsibility... don't worry about it...

But certainly do not stop doing chores because you think that your W will think that you are pursuing...

make sense?

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Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

I believe it's very important to understand the difference between you doing something intended to get your W back, you doing something because you want to do it for yourself, and your W's interpretation of why you are doing what you are doing...

If you want to do all the chores in the house, then by all means... do all the chores in the house... just don't do them because you think you will help save your M... do them because you want to become a better man how likes to keep a tidy house... and what ever perception your W might have regarding your new found responsibility... don't worry about it...

But certainly do not stop doing chores because you think that your W will think that you are pursuing...

make sense?
Yes, this makes sense. However, W has felt that she has carried the load too long (I don't necessarily agree but that doesn't matter) and so I must demonstrate that I am capable of doing more. Doing more helps me, helps her and hopefully helps our marriage. It seems to me that if I want to save my marriage I have to start doing the things that make my W happy and stop doing the things that make her angry.

So I keep reading that I need to improve for me, for my kids, etc. but not for my wife. That if my W approves and sees the changes as meaningful and permanent, then this is a side benefit. What I don't understand is at what point do I get to start actively working on saving my marriage? It just all seems so one sided, (i.e. focus on me and let the chips fall where they may). Some validation and willingness to work on my W'S part would be very helpful but people say to not seek out these things. So when does it happen?


Me51 W53 S17 S14
M22 T25
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife
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Yes, I understand where you are coming from, what you are saying...

For me, I know that even though both my W and I agreed that I would be the SAHD, it was stressful for my W to be the primary bread winner (even though she makes good money) and there was probably an amount of jealousy and resentment of me...

Back to "words have meanings"... it is very important though, that while you do things "for" your W to help out around the house... and we should all pull our weight and do our share within the family unit...

That we don't do something to "make our spouse happy"... rather, do something because it's helpful and you are happy to do it...

Because I can clean the house and make the beds until the cows come home and my W will not be happy because I don't clean nor make the beds to her standards... and lord knows, I tried...

Improving and doing things to become a better husband and father is the important factor... that your W ends up appreciating it and in turn becomes a "better" W because of it and your M improves... that's an awesome side benefit... but should not be an expectation...

The truth is, you become active in saving your marriage simply by becoming a better man and husband...

Here's maybe an example that helps frame it in a way that makes sense...

A person who is truly in MLC does things solely for their own, personal benefit... in the world and society we live in, many people see that and say "wonderful! Take charge of your own happiness!"

What the MLCer doesn't get is, their selfishness is very one sided and has no concern for nor intention of win/win... they do not care about the damage their actions may have, in their goal of finding their happiness (they aren't actually creating their happiness, the are actually trying to find it in the next yard)...

What the LBS in recovery is doing is, creating their own happiness with the intention of benefiting anyone and everyone who is touched by them becoming a better person...

In the end, the WAS or MLCer who returns from the fog, ends up benefiting as well from the changes the LBS makes in themselves and, as their M.O. becomes less selfish, you have actually taken the lead in showing them and enabling them that they too can improve themselves in a way that helps them create their own happiness which in turn creates benefits for others, around them...

That's the long winded way of saying:

Become the best man and husband you can be that only a fool would leave...

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Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

Become the best man and husband you can be that only a fool would leave...


Yeah, I like it! Thanks for the advice!


Me51 W53 S17 S14
M22 T25
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife
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Well the bad news 2TP is that it might not ever happen... it's hard to resign yourself to that but it's the truth. You can't control your W. So she will either see changes or she won't. She'll either care about them or she won't. They'll be enough to make a difference or they won't.

I'm not a SAHD, but I do consider myself the primary caregiver in our house. I cook the meals, do the laundry, clean the house, get the kids after school, help with the homework, do the dishes, do the grocery shopping, pay the bills, manage our computers/IT stuff, and handle the outside stuff too. I also tend to be home more (because of a) my wife's work schedule and b) her social life) so I parent more. My W was in nursing school for two years while our S was 2-4 years old, so for those two years I was almost a single parent. Before this I thought of myself as a pretty darn good guy. Compared to my wife's friends' husbands I was a gem, wasn't I? Heck, those guys gave me crap for making them look bad.

But in the end my W isn't happy. When the bomb came it was really hard. How could I do all this and not be the right guy? I did all this stuff and isn't there a formula says that I get the girl? What did I do wrong?

That forced the introspection. That forced me to look deep inside and see all the areas that I didn't like and that had changed in me since we first met. Yes, I was Mr. Super Helper Dad... but that was stuff I did... not how I was.

If you can look at your sum of life and say you are who you were when you met, and that you're really not in need of work then I would say tell your spouse to change herself to meet you. Of course be ready for that not to happen, but really if any one of us is that good then that's a good strategy.

Myself... I couldn't say that. I know what I think in my heart and head at times, I know what I do when no one is looking, and I know where my demons are kept. I'd recommend No More Mr. Nice Guy. It really helped set me on a course to self-correction and expansion.


Married 6 together 8
Me:38 W:31 second marriage for both
SS12, SD10, S6
Bomb: 9/8/11 (day before our 5 yr ann)
W moved out: 2/18/12
D final: 11/12/12
Share S 50/50. Spend as much time as I can with SS & SD
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Ugh! Brought some freshly laundered clothes up to the room where my W has sequestered herself. She has decided to stay upstairs to work, (she telecommutes) sleep and watch TV. I told her she did not have to stay cooped up in the room all day; that she could work in any other part of the house and I'd stay clear. She started sobbing uncontrollably. I went to hug her and she said don't! I just sat there rubbing her shoulders and told her I was sorry she was hurting so much. She continued to cry. I said I was sorry and left the room.

This is killing us both!!


Me51 W53 S17 S14
M22 T25
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife
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WHG, you are absolutely right... in the end, the LBS cannot and does not control the WAS... that why there's two things to be sure of without a doubt... NEVER do something with expectations... and... our spouses will decide their own, personal direction...

The reason for become a man only a fool would leave is... because we become better men... as soon as we say we're good enough... then we've lost sight of the point of life...

If we become better men and our W's decide to leave anyhow and prove they are fools... guess what... our next romantic partner becomes the beneficiary of our growth and greatness! And so do we!

One of the things that a WAS / MLCer does is rewrite history... no matter how much we were great men, they quite often only remember the bad stuff and then generalize that ALL stuff, all our history, was bad... we can't sit in resentment thinking that THEY should change because WE ARE ALREADY GREAT!... I have a lot of friends who remember that I was a great husband, father, man... I still am and I'm even more, now...

But I know that I contributed to the destruction of our M... We need to own that stuff rather than doing the projection and fault blaming that our WAS does...

As far as your W's emotional moment 2tp, she needs to work through whatever she is coping with. As tough as it is, if you offer to console her in a depressed moment and she tells you to go away... it's best that you honour that and go away... it hurts... but we need to respect their need for space...

Keep working on yourself and it will get better...

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Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

As far as your W's emotional moment 2tp, she needs to work through whatever she is coping with. As tough as it is, if you offer to console her in a depressed moment and she tells you to go away... it's best that you honour that and go away... it hurts... but we need to respect their need for space...

Keep working on yourself and it will get better...


I think what my W is going through is conflict and remorse. Conflict about whether she should stay in the marriage and ditch the friend with whom she is having the EA. Remorse for having already made a series of decisions that have put her family in a complete tail spin. I am hurt and angry. We should be addressing our issues through MC. We should be working on our relationship because 18 years of marriage and 2 great kids kind of makes it worth it. She has stated that I am selfish, yet what she is doing is the definition of selfish!

Praying that tomorrow is a better day,


Me51 W53 S17 S14
M22 T25
Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11

It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.

Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife
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If you want to know how bad it can get, just look up the tail end of ninelives...

it is tragic and no matter how much they put on a face of how their lives are so great and they seem so emotionally distanced from us, there is no doubt that they feel conflict, guilt, remorse...

some just hide it better than others...

Each of the LBS who come to this site are unique, yet there's so much in common... and in the end, there's two rather polar positions the LBS takes...

1) The LBS feels they are completely at fault and try desperately to change the mind of their WAS

2) The LBS feels their WAS is completely at fault, selfish, and needs to change their wayward ways...

See the common theme...?

The LBS wants the WAS to change...

And that's where every LBS needs to reflect on themselves...

Which one of the above two are you?

We call this journey of the LBS a marathon... because no matter how fast we want it all to go away, get better, our WAS to change... it... just... takes... TIME...

So, in the mean time... we work on ourselves.

Even if you said, "to heck with it. I'm done. She's selfish and will never change. I'm going to file D and get this over with." The reality is, it still doesn't go away...

The sooner an LBS comes to the point where they are over the initial shock, sorrow, and anger and start working on themselves... well... that's when it starts to get better...

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to add to what KD said

about LBSers...the theme that runs through ALL of the couples who have reconciled is that the LBSer changes themselves FIRST, whether the WAS does or not.

ultimately both must change,
but sometimes the person posting here is the one needing to work the most.

Sometimes an EA is the result of a man pushing his w into the arms of OM and '
sometimes she saves herself before it does too much damage...but if her h remains the same, the m will die....

Just b/c we LBSers are trying to "save our marriage" doesn't mean we are "right" in all aspects...

I came here consumed by the certainty that I was right and my h was wrong and selfish.

TO this day I think his choices were selfish...

BUT I MADE SELFISH CHOICES TOO that I had not seen before...they were well disguised.

and I learned to forgive, and to be forgiven.

Certainly the person posting here is supposed to be working the most...

condemning your w and calling her selfish is natural to say when you are angry...but it does NOT help you

b/c regardless of what the other issues are or how you got here...

IF RECONCILING is your goal then SHE must come to believe that

marriage to you can be better/different than before, which means

YOU must show her YOU have changed....
so what's new with you? What are you working on in YOU, to show that

marriage to you "from this day forward" could be better for Her?


Will she fear that you won't ever forgive her? Will she fear you will hold it over her head like the Sword of Damacles, or throw it in her face every bad fight?

WIll she be right to fear and believe this^^^??


Even if you CAN forgive her, it won't matter If she does not believe you will. She won't bother trying to come home if it's going to be like climbing Mt Everest.

and if you want to consume yourself with the unfairness of it all...

call Africa.

I don't say all this with a harsh tone or wish to hit you with a 2 x 4, but whenever I see a lot of anger from a man with a poss WAW who is torn up inside

I often find that the anger has to go or the m will end. At least for now, hide it from her b/c I cannot see ANY good coming of it.

Til I know more of your sitch, I'll leave it at that and send you my prayers

and hugs
((( )))


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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