I am here looking for support, encouragement, and ideas. The rollercoaster of emotions from the beginning of this summer has settled to numbness, and the progress and urgency of the first few weeks has turned into frustration and sometimes hopelessness. Maybe you can help me stay motivated. Here's my story so far:
After 17+ years of marriage and two kids nearing teen-age, I was sailing along thinking I was lucky to be so compatible with my husband in spite of problems of (his) irritability and (our) communication dysfunction that seemed to be getting inexplicably worse recently. Well, that and the fact our sex life had pretty much evaporated (but we had kids and were tired, lots of excuses). Mainly I wondered where his sense of humor had gone - it was such an advantage that helped us smooth over the bumps in our marriage and lives initially, and now he'd become such a grouch. I thought he was lucky to have someone so tolerant and emotionally healthy to handle his criticism and negativity without getting down about it. I was so in the dark.
11:30pm on June 15 he said we need to talk: I'm miserable. I have been for years. I've tried and tried, and it's not getting any better, and I want to separate. I do not love you, I won't ever want to have sex with you. There are too many reasons to tell you any. It will not change. I'll move out now if you want or stay here if you want, but I want to get papers signed right away to separate so in a year this can be over.
Wow. I'm sure you all know the feeling. My love, my future, my assumptions, my world - were all ripped from under my feet. First of all, I asked and he agreed to give me time to understand what was happening. I asked and he agreed not to say anything to the boys until we could agree on what we would say. He said he thought nothing would change since he'd still pay the bills and the kids would be fine - parents in our area get divorced all the time and their kids seem fine. Wow. I told him I was in shock, did not want to separate, did not think he realized that he meant so much more to us than money, and that this absolutely would hurt the kids. I asked him to try counseling with me so I could understand what was going on, so we'd know how to help the kids, and so we could better co-parent if it came to that, and to my surprise he agreed (he always seemed dead set against outside help when I suggested it in the past) but said he'd go only because I wanted him to and he didn't think it would change anything for him.
So we've been a few times together and I've been a couple more times when he wasn't available, and he went once without me. What I've learned is we've both been passive aggressive, we've allowed intimacy and sex to vanish, we still both believe we're good friends. I've learned he's extremely passive instead of what I thought was agreeable. There were lots of habits I had that he could not respect and were driving him crazy but he held all his resentment in. There were also things he did that I felt I'd moved past (EA about 5 yrs ago, some mean words/mean behavior) and forgiven rather than dealing with openly, but probably really had created some resentment on my part too. We had gotten to the point where we rarely talked or saw each other, and over about 6 months had drastically turned worse. He was coming home midafternoon, barking a few criticisms (clothes on floor, bike on lawn), and going to bed to lie under covers in the dark looking at his smartphone for the rest of the day. He told the counselor he felt happier at work and on trips than he did at home. I had been alarmed at these developments but didn't see my role in them. I thought he was depressed, stressed from work, MLC, or something. He also had a job I cannot know the details of and he won't FB friend me because he doesn't want our neighbors on my FB list to be all in his business. That's what he said and I was OK with that. Also he recently (past couple of years) changed his personal grooming, and seemed to pay more attention to it before going on trips. Whether that means he was cheating, I haven't explored because the bottom line is that would have only been a symptom of the problems we already had that needed fixing. I really don't think he's the type of person to cheat, he values loyalty and honor, but I suppose he could think I'm not holding up my end by being someone he'd want to have sex with. I could forgive cheating (if it even happened) if he sincerely wanted to work on our marriage together now.
I have gone from thinking he's gone crazy to understanding that the little things really eroded our R over a long time. I have accepted that I can improve from this awful eye-opening situation, and with or without him I want to be a better person. I feel he's doing the wrong thing, it will damage our kids, it's so unnecessary, we could have a better relationship from this, but I'm recognizing this is my reality and not necessarily his.
We are sleeping in the same bed but not touching. We are talking pleasantly but not about our R (except in or as a result of a counseling session). We are friendly and doing things as a family, but I feel he's just taking the path of least resistance. He initially had a timeline of wanting our finances separated and papers signed by August, but I haven't heard any more about that. Everything seems like it's on hold but we aren't talking about it except when we're at the counselor, and she's taking things very slow. We're mostly talking with her about how we communicate and why. (I think she's brilliant - anything more high-pressure would likely have scared him off.)
I do not do not do not do not want to be divorced. Devil's advocate might say that I can be manipulative, I impose my reality and I typically ignore what I do not want to accept, and it's possible I'm fighting just to win. But I don't think so. I also love who he was and who we were together, I believe in marriage, I made promises and want to keep them, and I feel an obligation to our kids to fix this. I want to be his support, his partner, the one he grows old with. It's hard for me to accept that this may not be what he wants.
So here I am. If it weren't for our boys, I would be thinking a bit more about whether it would be easier to let him go. He avoids expressing emotion and seems to fear intimacy, and it would be nice to have a life partner look happy to see me at the end of the day, willingly kiss me, want to touch me. If that could be my DH that would be the best thing in the world, but if it will never be him, maybe I should move on. But two teenage boys need their dad, and we have a great time as a family. I want them to know a stable home like I had (H's parents divorced when he was a baby). I've thought about trying to just stay together until they go to college and then see if we want to split up. I just don't know how long I can be the only one that wants to stay together.
I am working on communication, reading books suggested by the counselor, I'm working on learning to try harder to know what he wants or thinks when he is not saying anything. I'm changing habits that annoyed him. I'm learning to see him as a person I don't know as well as I thought, and ask him more questions. I'm taking good care of myself, getting fit, working hard, doing fun things, getting enough sleep. But I feel like I'm lost in the middle of the ocean and don't know what direction to go or how to keep things improving. We have been on trips and activities together and had good times since June, but he said he thinks his improved mood and less irritability is because he no longer sees the future stretching miserably in front of him, you could say it's like he sees the light at the end of the tunnel, so he's feeling better. He says he's just trying to live in the moment and doesn't feel like he now has to care about future ramifications of things that would have bothered him before. He is not motivated to work on our marriage, he's just kind of going with the flow right now, and "doing what he's told."
My biggest question is, even if we can communicate better, and if we have fun together, and if he turns a corner and decides to work on our marriage, can we ever really become physically intimate again? Can it happen? I don't know how I could forget the hurt of feeling so undesired. Right now, he's not ready for any kind of physical closeness (if I hand something to him I get the feeling we're careful not to even touch hands). Has anyone gone from zero to passion again? I believe it can happen, but I don't know how to do it, and I don't know how to encourage him to want to do it.
Thanks for reading my story. I hope this board can help me get my momentum back and do the things that will help us heal and help our kids, whatever the end result for our marriage.
Me 45 / H 45 MLC? T 1989 M 1993 Two sons 1998 & 2000 Bomb 6/15/2011 S not yet
First, welcome to the DB boards. Have you picked up the Divorce Remedy book yet? It's an awesome resource and the basis for a lot of the support you will get, here...
Intellectually, you sound absolutely solid... seems to be working for you... how are you, emotionally? Both outwardly and inwardly...
You have no less that one year from now, according to what you've indicated regarding Ds in your jurisdiction... and as you've seen, the lack of movement towards that end by your H only extends that... So understand... you really have time...
You indicate that you might be a little manipulative... I'm guessing controlling as well... and we all are, to some degree... but those are things that really have to be held in check during these times, as they come across strongly as pressure to the WAS and can drive them further away, emotionally and physically...
I understand that you indicate an A will not be a deal breaker for you. I hope you really mean that, and it isn't that way for everyone... but understand that, based on your H's past EA and some of his "grooming" behaviours... there is a possibility that there is another EA... maybe even a PA... DO NOT SNOOP, just understand that that could possibly come out in the wash...
Often, a WAS will agree and go to counseling, just so that they can have it on their belt as another "proof" that they "tried everything"... both partners contribute to the negative aspects of an M... understand that he will... or will not... do anything to own or change himself... so if all you do is become a better you, how will you be, as a changed and better you, with your H who possibly remains the same?
But here's the beauty... and you need to be VERY CLEAR in your mind about this... you are at an awesome junction where YOU CAN CHANGE YOU and become a FANTASTIC woman that only a fools would leave... THAT is what DB is about...
And the benefit is... your H WILL notice... and... it may just be the catalyst he needed to realize that HE can change, too... in that way, you are ENABLING him to become a better H and man... and together, build a much better M...
We call that "Getting a life" and 180s (things we do differently; in life and circumstances)...
What are some things that you can do for you...? That would be beneficial for you...?
Thanks for responding! I'm so excited to see my post finally appear. I've been reading lots of threads and advice here in the forums and it so resonates with me. I haven't read the books yet but 180s and GAL were things I was sort of doing already. I could see that my H's mind wasn't going to change by me or anyone else telling him what a fool he's being. Obviously I needed to take seriously what my role must have been and work on my own issues if there was any hope of salvaging this. And the best thing about that was, even if I couldn't change the situation, I'd end up in a better place and be a better person moving forward. Seemed logical.
Emotionally, outwardly everything seems oddly calm and pleasant. We've had a few conversations about things like selling the house or mediation, and I managed not to cry or act outraged and self-righteous. I was surprised by my ability to do this, because I've always had a problem with waterworks whenever I'm upset. But I said to him right after the bomb, and I really believe, that I can hear him out without freaking out, so I'm a safe person to talk to even if I'm not going to love what I'm hearing. In the past I think he's avoided saying things so I wouldn't get all emotional, or so I wouldn't get mad, and look where it's gotten us. The truth is much better to know, and I can hear it without freaking out. (Not speaking about our problems didn't mean they weren't there...it was better to say the truth so we could deal with it.)
I feel like showing little negative emotion is important in my situation. It keeps him from shutting down, I think it potentially opens the door to him sharing more with me and possibly reconciling. Admittedly I also do not want him to see me fall apart. I am devastated, I do not want this, I told him so in words without dramatics.
Inside is another story. I'm terrified and humiliated, so sad I can't breathe sometimes, so angry sometimes. I have good friends I can talk to and I journal my feelings to get them out. I read the book The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce that suggests our kids who may seem fine now will likely have trouble in their 40s forming or maintaining relationships. I quit fulltime work w/401(k) 11 years ago to care for my kids and have been part-time without benes since then, so I am looking at having no health insurance. We'll have a tough time financially on our own. However, I am a cheerful, strong person. I bloom where I'm planted, and I know I can do it and be happy on the other side of this if it comes to that. Oh - and I began taking anti-depressants to calm the roller coaster and not cry so much in my car and at the office. I don't like them much - I feel like I was previously feeling grade A alternating with F, and now I'm a flat grade B-. Blah. But I think they helped me get through this summer - trips with my elderly parents who don't know what's going on, a family wedding. These would have been hard but I made it through them with a sense of humor and detachment and that must be the meds.
It's so nice to have this place where I can journal and vent. I'm looking forward to that, because I'm frankly tired of talking my friends' ears off about my situation every time I see them. It must be boring for them, and it feels unproductive to me. I try to at least work into each conversation "how are YOU doing" because I've been on the receiving end of someone obsessing over crisis in their life and I don't want to do that.
For 180s, I'm picking up around the house more regularly, and with more attention to getting it neat for when he's arriving home from work. I'm focusing more on making sure the kids do their chores (instead of being tempted to just do them myself or let them slide entirely). One of the biggest 180s is I was really pushing him for affection or attention - such as calling when he's on trips, saying bye in the morning, a kiss goodnight or goodbye, words of affirmation about my little successes. I thought I was being assertive in expressing my needs, but I believe he read this as needy and pressuring him to act a way he didn't feel. I should have these things - I shouldn't have to ask for them day after day - but I'm trying to accept what my current situation is so we can make real progress. So my 180 is I've completely stopped pushing for those things. Surprisingly, right after I started acting like it didn't matter, he now consistently says "bye see you later" when he leaves for work in the morning. Shocking.
Today he left for a weekend in Vegas with friends, and I gave him a ride to the airport. No hugs or kisses, but we said bye have a good time. I don't know if he'll text or not when he arrives. He knows I like to know he's alive and safe, and if he chooses not to do it that's up to him. If he's not in a place yet where he feels like doing that, well, that's reality. I'm not texting or calling him.
It doesn't mean I'm going to accept a marriage like that forever. It's just that I now understand that whining and complaining, dictating and forcing weren't going to make him want to be affectionate even if he was willing to act like it enough to get me off his back. I'd rather know who he really is, and when that settles down to something stable, then we'll talk about whether we're compatible.
We have always had good features and bad about our relationship. While he was not overly romantic (ok, NOT romantic) I could deal with that because he was so smart and capable and practical. While he was sometimes perfectionistic, he was also sometimes hilarious. So I'm not looking for a future marriage that's 100% perfect. I'm trying to figure out what are the non-negotiables that I'll have to walk away if he won't work on. And well, I'm trying to learn if I have no hope of staying with him, what are the things I should hold out for if there's a next person in my life.
You mentioned the EA or possible PA. I always thought that would be a dealbreaker but honestly all of my assumptions have been called into question in the past 3 months. I really could forgive and forget if he learned from this experience, if he decided he really wanted me, and if I thought we were better equipped not to be so destructive to each other in the future - so he wouldn't feel like the grass was greener.
I feel very sure that he started the counseling only so no one could say he didn't even try. But hey, whatever gets you in the door! I've found it extremely empowering to learn this wasn't entirely out of my control. There were things I misunderstood about how relationships work, and things I thought were healthy but were damaging and passive aggressive. I'm trying to make real change on my end, and I'm hoping he believes it and becomes interested in changing on his end. He is hearing from the MC that perhaps his relationship with his absentee dad is a factor in what's happening. He's also learning that his silence was destructive. It's been really good. But so expensive.
I'm planning to get the books. I've read two others so far, one on anger and one on family communication.
As mature as I'm trying to be on the outside, though, I have to say I am so angry and disgusted that he would walk away from his 11 and 13 year old boys. It's awful to me. I can't conceive of it. If we go to D, I will have lost a lot of respect for him.
I'd also like to say that these boards have shown me that I'm not alone. I really thought people who got divorced were different from us, and there was some big thing wrong with them. (sorry to those offended by that. I was naive) There are a lot of people here just like me, and a lot of marriages that disintegrated through the tiniest little things that became intolerable and led to bigger problems. It's wonderful to see how supportive people are here, and I hope to help others here too. Thanks again for reading!
Me 45 / H 45 MLC? T 1989 M 1993 Two sons 1998 & 2000 Bomb 6/15/2011 S not yet
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Nothing seems to change. He came home from Vegas, after no calls or texts to me or the kids, even to say he arrived safely, until he called Monday to let me know what time he'd be getting in and if I could pick him up that would be good. My 180 is to not bug him about this - it was a recurring argument and he'd reluctantly do better for a while.
I shouldn't say nothing changed. When he came home he didn't start in with the criticism as he was before the bomb. We talked about his weekend and what we did at home. But there's still no hug, no kiss, no touch. I kind of thought being away with old friends would shake him out of this.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Emotionally, outwardly everything seems oddly calm and pleasant. We've had a few conversations about things like selling the house or mediation, and I managed not to cry or act outraged and self-righteous. I was surprised by my ability to do this, because I've always had a problem with waterworks whenever I'm upset. But I said to him right after the bomb, and I really believe, that I can hear him out without freaking out, so I'm a safe person to talk to even if I'm not going to love what I'm hearing. In the past I think he's avoided saying things so I wouldn't get all emotional, or so I wouldn't get mad, and look where it's gotten us. The truth is much better to know, and I can hear it without freaking out. (Not speaking about our problems didn't mean they weren't there...it was better to say the truth so we could deal with it.
OMG that sounds SO much like what my W said to me. She said she couldn't talk to me b/c she was afraid I'd 'freak out'. If ONLY I'd found DB and DR back then. Hang in there.... Keep your cool. Show H that you are NOT going to freak out and that you really ARE capable of being the SAFE person to talk to. That's been a continual struggle for me, but acting as if, it's getting slowly easier.
I feel like showing little negative emotion is important in my situation. It keeps him from shutting down, I think it potentially opens the door to him sharing more with me and possibly reconciling. Admittedly I also do not want him to see me fall apart. I am devastated, I do not want this, I told him so in words without dramatics.
Yes, what you said!!
Inside is another story. I'm terrified and humiliated, so sad I can't breathe sometimes, so angry sometimes. I have good friends I can talk to and I journal my feelings to get them out.
You're human. We ALL, and I mean ALL have those times. Look at OUR (you and me) dates of BOMBs also. Mine was 6-18-11. You and I are on a similar timeline. It's SOOOOOO raw...I have good moments. I have terrible days. It's a rollercoaster. Let yourself feel it. Vent here. Vent to any friends who listen. (I also feel like I talk my friends' ears off and tend to cry in the process)
One of the biggest 180s is I was really pushing him for affection or attention - such as calling when he's on trips, saying bye in the morning, a kiss goodnight or goodbye, words of affirmation about my little successes. I thought I was being assertive in expressing my needs, but I believe he read this as needy and pressuring him to act a way he didn't feel. I should have these things - I shouldn't have to ask for them day after day - but I'm trying to accept what my current situation is so we can make real progress. So my 180 is I've completely stopped pushing for those things. Surprisingly, right after I started acting like it didn't matter, he now consistently says "bye see you later" when he leaves for work in the morning. Shocking.
Yes, that is one of my 180s. I was always trying to hug, give affection to W. She was pulling away from me (physically and emotionally). SO I came across as pushy an clingy instead of assertive. The whole thing about detaching and stopping pursuit is that it really does draw them to you. Sometimes it takes awhile....
It doesn't mean I'm going to accept a marriage like that forever. It's just that I now understand that whining and complaining, dictating and forcing weren't going to make him want to be affectionate even if he was willing to act like it enough to get me off his back. I'd rather know who he really is, and when that settles down to something stable, then we'll talk about whether we're compatible.
Also sounds like my sitch. All my nagging and pushing for attention, etc.... pushed W right away from me. I should have been sitting still and just letting her 'be'.
As mature as I'm trying to be on the outside, though, I have to say I am so angry and disgusted that he would walk away from his 11 and 13 year old boys. It's awful to me. I can't conceive of it. If we go to D, I will have lost a lot of respect for him.
I'd also like to say that these boards have shown me that I'm not alone. I really thought people who got divorced were different from us, and there was some big thing wrong with them. (sorry to those offended by that. I was naive) There are a lot of people here just like me, and a lot of marriages that disintegrated through the tiniest little things that became intolerable and led to bigger problems. It's wonderful to see how supportive people are here, and I hope to help others here too. Thanks again for reading!
that's how it usually goes = if you read the sitches, very very few have something BIG that has caused the breakdown. Like I said, wish I had found DB and DR books a LONG time ago. But I am trying to see this as a chance to grow. Painful. But. Necessary. ((((HUGGGGS!!! to you))))))
Me 45 / H 45 MLC? T 1989 M 1993 Two sons 1998 & 2000 Bomb 6/15/2011 S not yet [/quote]
Me (f): 45 W(f) 35 T: 13 y C: S4 adopted at birth 6-18-11 bomb: I want to break up 8-28-11 OW confirmed
Thanks InShock! Being here has been encouraging in some ways and discouraging in others. If only there was a list of 38 things to do to ensure your marriage gets back on track, I would absolutely be doing them. It's hard to accept that no matter what I do, what's logical, what's right, etc, my marriage might still be done. Reading this in others' stories is discouraging because my #1 goal right now is saving the marriage. I understand over time the #1 goal must change to being the best me, the best mom, the best potential spouse I can and let the rest happen with no guarantees.
Sorry about what happened to you too - I read some of your sitch while waiting for moderator approval, and it sure is a crappy way to start your summer. Glad you found this site.
Regards, adinva
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
It's hard to accept that no matter what I do, what's logical, what's right, etc, my marriage might still be done. Reading this in others' stories is discouraging because my #1 goal right now is saving the marriage. I understand over time the #1 goal must change to being the best me, the best mom, the best potential spouse I can and let the rest happen with no guarantees.
I'm glad you recognize what the ultimate goal must be (working on yourself). Just know that by working on yourself first, it makes the goal of saving the M more likely and more rewarding.
Rather than being discouraged, look at some of the longer-time posters and see how most of us, whether M or not, are generally in a better place for ourselves.
Work on yourself, be more patient than you ever thought you could, and you *will* find yourself in a better place!
Me 43 W 38 M 5 T 7 SD20 S15, S13 with 1st W ILYBNILWY June 2010 Separation/Bomb July 2010 Divorce Feb 8, 2011
