What if 180 works, but issues are not dealt with?

[anyhope]

I'm trying to do a 180 the best I can while still living together. The problem I have is my husband had said he is willing to see if we can fall in love again, but he still cheated on me and I think the contact with the ow has stopped because of her not because my husband stopped it. In fact he was very clear about not wanting to stop contact even though he moved back home. The more I do the 180 the more he wants to talk and spend time with me, but I'm acting as if I'm over the whole situation, thing is I'm not.. And he is the type who doesn't like talking about issues (that's why I think we're at this point now) not talking about something doesn't mean it's all good. So should he be successful of coming around (he is nice to me and all) but if we are to reunite as a couple again I want to discuss issues. Do I do the 180 until he comes around to the point where he wants to discuss the marriage?

[Young at Heart]

I'm trying to do a 180 the best I can while still living together...

...The problem I have is my husband had said he is willing to see if we can fall in love again, but he still cheated on me and I think the contact with the ow has stopped because of her not because my husband stopped it.

...The more I do the 180 the more he wants to talk and spend time with me, but I'm acting as if I'm over the whole situation, thing is I'm not..


...So should he be successful of coming around (he is nice to me and all) but if we are to reunite as a couple again I want to discuss issues. Do I do the 180 until he comes around to the point where he wants to discuss the marriage?

First, congratulations, sounds like your 180's are working very well. Especially your statement about the more you do 180's the more he wants to talk and spend time with you.

I don't understand your problem of your husband wanting to fall in love with you again. The reason you are doing 180's is because you want to save your marriage (not because you want to make him breakdown and beg you to forgive him). Right?

Yes, he cheated on you, yes he was a jerk. The question for you is do you want to save your marriage or not? If you do, what do you care if the OW dumped him, or why he came back?

I would also suggest that you have some responsibility in what happened. Yes, he was the one that cheated, but why did he cheat, what was it that he was getting from OW that drew him toward her? Was it something that you should have been providing to him? Was there something that you allowed to happen that you should have stopped, but you didn't want to make waves? Only you can figure that out, but if you assume that you have some (although maybe only a minor portion) of the ownership of the problem, you will be in a better place to reconcile with you H.

Finally, if it were me, and I needed to talk to my spouse about the details of an affair, I would want a referee (i.e. a marriage counselor) to be present as there would be times were I would get too much information and be emotionally overwhelmed and need to stop my spouse from talking. I would also need someone who could help me verify and understand what I heard, as I am sure I would missunderstand some of what was said.

Good luck to you and your H. It sounds like you really have mastered the 180 from what you posted. Maybe your could give some examples of the things that you did as 180's.

MWD has a saying that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. You might want to read some of her articles on infidelity and foregiveness.

[anyhope]

Thanks for your response. Yes, I do take responsibility for him cheating as we have grown apart over the past few years. We had no communication about relationship issues, just pushed everything aside, our sexlife became almost non existent due to this, so I'm not overly shocked he cheated, I'm just shocked he left me and refused to fix things. I keep thinking that if the ow wanted him, he'd be gone and it hurts.

The 180 I did was basically just no contact. Being together for so long I used to call him daily, just to say hi, see what he's doing. I've stopped doing that. I always had food ready by the time he got home, I stopped doing that, I let him go out withot calling to see where he was. (this was hard at first as I know sometimes he was with her)

Right now he asks me to go with him where he goes, but I still refuse hoping he'd miss me. I have not tried to talk about our marriage, or plans for the future as it's suggested, so I guess he feels more comfortable around me. I know he likes even loves me as a person, but as he said he is not in love with me.. Might come with time I guess, but I'm scared we'd be back to just living beside each other not happy like a married couple should be.

[Young at Heart]

What helped repair the relationship between my wife and myself was when I took responsibility for my share of what I did wrong in the relationship and apologized to her, told her I was sorry for the pain I had caused her and started to make her feel loved in her primary and secondary languages of love each and every day. This was with my feeling that I was the wronged party who had been denied sex by my wife and whose wife had used my desire for sex with her as a weapon to deeply emotionally hurt me.

It took my wife months to forgive me and with the help of a sex therapist and individual counselor for her to realize that she had caused me as much or more pain than I had caused her. Once my wife forgave me, she was more willing to rebuild our relationship. This may not work in your case as ultimately it was my wife, who decided that she would change how she treated me and we went from a sex starved marriage to one that includes mutual love and sex.

You are wise to understand how your 180's are helping build attraction between the two of you. You are also wise to understand that you H needs to really change the way he treats you for you to have a happy and full marriage. Ultimately, he will need to determine how much or if he wants to change enough for the two of you to have a full relationship or not. Each of you can sabotage the marriage rebuilding process. It will only work if each of you fully commits to rebuilding the marriage. If one does and one doesn't there will be emotional pain.

...but I'm scared we'd be back to just living beside each other not happy like a married couple should be...

Fear and fear of putting the effort and your hopes into rebuilding a relationship that may or may not be crushed by the actions of someone else is a real understandable emotion.

Fear of rejection is why so many people never become couples. Once you open yourself to someone you become very vulnerable to being hurt by them. Having an emotional barried between someone who can hurt you, is a natural human response. However, that barrier will keep you from rebuilding your relationship.

Ultimately, you need to determine whether you want the marriage to end or not. I had assumed that your 180's were your outward expression that you didn't want the marriage to end. If you decide that you want to work at saving/rebuilding your marriage, it means that you accept that you may be emotionally hurt. That is why GAL (getting a life) is so important, as it provides you with things that will help you be and remain happy no matter what your spouse does or doesn't do. It will be the lighthouse that you can look to when or if things don't go well.

Ultimately, one of you needs to make the commitment to saving the marriage and "hope" that the other will be inspired to also try to save things. It is clear that you have your H's attension, but it sounds like you have reservations about fully committing your heart to try to save the marriage. ....after all he was the one who cheated, so why should you have to do anything.....

My wife and I didn't have to deal with infidelity, but we had both emotionally withdrawn from each other and we had both done things to emotionally hurt each other some intentionally, but mostly because we didn't really understand the consequences of some of our actions or lack of actions. You situation is different and requires both rebuilding a relationship and rebuilding trust of a partner.

I can say from personal experience as the one who opened myself up emotionally first and did the 180's that ultimately saved my marriage that it is a horrible "leap of faith."

Your sitatuion is different from what mine was. However, MWD has lots of examples of marriages that she has helped rebuild after infidelity. Figure out what you really want and then go for it. Good luck to you in finding the happiness that you want.

[anyhope]

I also take responsibility. I'm not saying that I've been the perfect wife and I was cheated on, because it's not true. Therefore what hurt me most was not the fact that he cheated but the way he told me, the way he left me, and even the way he came back. When I found out I tought this will be the right time to finally talk about our issues and work on them. Instead he moved out to be with someone he didn't want a relationship with, but yet the fact that I was heartbroken or that I was his wife for so many years and the good part of our relationship no longer meant anything to him.

Now seems like he's still offended because I haven't had sex with him, but the thing is how could I? As much as I wanted to work on things all I see is someone who came back to me because the ow didn't want him. He expects me to "win" him back and act as if nothing happened, but I guess you're right. Looks like I will have to commit to wanting to work on things, meanin Ill have to do whatever he wants and hope he'll do the same. I'm still not ready to give ip on him and I guess I should give it my best try for now and see how things progress, but it's very difficult to get started.

Basically I didn't do the 180 to win him back, I saw on his phone that he tried calling the ow a number of times after he had moved home and said will stop contact with her, so I got offended because he lied again, I got offended that he still chooses her after everything he'd said, so I decided be it, I don't care what he does, who he does it with... And thats how it all began.. He started changing a bit and I gave in to try working on it... How long to wait and see though? A year? A few months?

[Young at Heart]

....all I see is someone who came back to me because the ow didn't want him.

...He expects me to "win" him back and act as if nothing happened,

...Looks like I will have to commit to wanting to work on things, meanin Ill have to do whatever he wants and hope he'll do the same. I'm still not ready to give ip on him and I guess I should give it my best try for now and see how things progress, but it's very difficult to get started.

....I got offended because he lied again, I got offended that he still chooses her after everything he'd said, so I decided be it, I don't care what he does, who he does it with...

.. He started changing a bit and I gave in to try working on it... How long to wait and see though? A year? A few months?

I wish some others would chime in and give you some alternate points of view, especially women.

From my perspective, if I were in your shoes, based on your opening comments (and assuming you really want the marriage to work and can forgive him), I would tell him that he really needs to make a choice in his life as to if he wants the marriage with you work or not. I would tell him that you are willing to forgive him and commit to making the marriage work (based on what you posted), but that there are some conditions that need to be met for you to try to improve the marriage and work on saving it.

I would tell him that you understand that you have hurt him and are sorry and will work hard to never do that again. However, you have some conditions that he needs to respect:

• that he will forgive you for the pain you have caused him;
• prior to having sex with him, you want the both of you to be tested for STD's and share the written test results with each other (you will not allow yourself to be infected by him and want to be absolutely certain that he hasn't done that to you already);
• you want the two of you to jointly go to marriage counseling;
• you want him to commit to working on the marriage for the next 6 months and that means no unchaperoned physical contact with the OW;
• in 6 months you and he will sit down with your marriage councelor and discuss whether you feel the marriage is still capable of being saved, until then you will assume it can be and devote yourself to saving it;
  
• If he can't agree to all of the above, then you want a divorce (if that is what you want) and an agreement to part as friends and not enemies.

Again, you need to figure out what you want for your life.

I really strongly disagree with your statement that you need to do "whatever he wants." However, you also need to understand that most people rationalize what they do so they don't feel that they are evil. He has convinced himself that having an affair was reasonable and appropriate based on the circumstance. While such thinking is crazy, look at people like John Edwards, Elliot Spitzer, Arnold Schwartzenager, Bill Clinton, etc. They convinced themselves that the didn't need to be faithful, that they were special, they were entitled and that what they were doing was not a problem or weakness on their part. Your husband is probably not that much different in his thinking (or lack of thinking).

I would also read every relationship book you can find and figure out what you want from life and a marriage. Read the most appropriate MWD book and read other relationship books to figure out what you did wrong, and what you feel your husband needs to do differently so that things get better. Most importantly work on getting a life program. MWD and other often say that 180's and GAL are the backbone of saving a marriage. A GAL program is focused on improving you through exercise and learning new things. It along with 180's forces your H to change how he interacts with you and that just might allow him to start treating you the way you should be treated and save your marriage.

As to you question of "how long?" He has done a few things that indicates he maybe wants to save the marriage. For that (if it were me) I would give him 6 months if he agrees to actively work on saving the marriage. For that 6 months I would force myself to forgive him. If at the end of 6 months he really hasn't made an effort at saving the marriage or he won't commit to any of your conditions, then I would tell myself that I tried and end the marriage and move on. If he does work at things, I would give him another 6 months, but would probably find out long before then that he really does want the marriage to last.

If he refuses to your conditions (and I would make them minimal and only if you are willng to divorce him over them), I would give myself 3 to 4 months to work on my GAL program so I was a better person and more able to stand the pressure associated with the changes that divorce cause.

Again, please remember that as much as he has hurt you, imagine how much he has hurt himself. To most men their ego is important to have been dumped by the OW and crawled back to the wife has to be something that he has had to deal with in all kinds of strange ways. I am sure that he has convinced himself that "up is down" and "left of right" just so he can look at himself in the mirror.

To expect him to immediately own-up to what he has done wrong is beyond what most humans are use to doing. It will require a lot of strength on his part just to agree to counseling where he has to confess what has happened and explain what he did out loud to a stranger. Part of why it will take strength is because he will know what he has done is very wrong and will know what a jerk he will look like. Your apologizing for what you did, will help, but ultimately he will know what he did was worse.

The STD testing will make him realize that sex with others is risky business and can have significant health consequences. It could be a real wake-up call and an explanation for why you aren't throwing yourself at him.

The marriage counseling is your way of helping to really make the marriage work. If he objects to the cost, tell him that it is a lot cheaper than hiring two divorce attorneys and that is his other option.

As to the his commitment to not be with the other woman by himself, I would tell him that you will trust him for the next 6 months, but you don't trust the OW and this will provide you with the peace of mind you need to focus on rebuilding your marriage with him.

As to the 6-month progress review, tell him that many marriages don't survive an infidelity and that you want to try to make things work, but you also want to be realistic and not promise him something that you might not be able to keep, nor do you want him to promise you something he might not be able to keep, but that both of you should be able to handle 6 months.

Good luck to you. If you have a minister or can find a good marriage councelor, you might want to figure out your own personal strategy and go over it with them prior to sitting down with your husband. I am sure they would be able to provide you with other thoughts and options.

[anyhope]

Well, thing is he's not the counseling type of guy, so that's pretty much out of the question. I think I haven't mentioned that aside from cheating he is going through MLC, so while he has stopped contact wit the ow he still acts as if he's 20 again. Gets drunk about 4 times a week, he always liked to be with friends and drink, but its a bit much lately, he also goes to a club once a week which is seasonal, so at least I know that will stop in 2 months and even he said that he's overdoing the drinking and will tone down, but I don't know when.. It's Tuesday and he's at the bar again. He does invite me to go everywhere and I go sometimes, but I'm not living my second childhood, so I refuse to go most of the time. I try to read as many posts as I can so I can stay focused on what needs to be done (GAL), but I'll be very honest with you now that he's back and have said he wants us to work out I lose all focus, all my patience and just want him back to normal again, but it doesn't work as fast as I'd like.

You're right though in 6 months we'll have our wedding anniversary, summer will be over, lots of good changes can take place, so we either celebrate or I'll tell him that I've tried my best and waited and will not put up with nonsense anymore

[Young at Heart]

Well, thing is he's not the counseling type of guy, so that's pretty much out of the question.

...he is going through MLC, so while he has stopped contact wit the ow he still acts as if he's 20 again.

...I try to read as many posts as I can so I can stay focused on what needs to be done (GAL), but I'll be very honest with you now that he's back and have said he wants us to work out I lose all focus, all my patience and just want him back to normal again, but it doesn't work as fast as I'd like.

You're right though in 6 months we'll have our wedding anniversary, summer will be over, lots of good changes can take place, so we either celebrate or I'll tell him that I've tried my best and waited and will not put up with nonsense anymore

a few more thoughts.


Don't rule out marriage counseling....if you find a good counselor it can really help. A marriage couples weekend workshop can also really help.

I really believe in the power of unconditional love. It has worked wonders for me with my wife and my children. Since your H is in an MLC, have you ever read The NYT Montana wife stoy?

To me GAL is so important that I stick with no matter what happens. It is to make me a better person, to improve me and my skills in living life. It is to show me and my wife that positive change in our life is possible and that if I can change for the better, she (if she so chooses) can also change.

If you are going to create a relationship deadline, make sure you choose a reasonable length, and make sure you communicate it to your H. In my earlier post, I had some conditions like you and your H were in counseling that implied you might see real progress or see real refusal to change within 6 months. 6 months is too short unless your H is really committed to rebuilding things. If he says (and he appears to have) that he wants to rebuild your marriage, then let him know that you also want that, but that you need to have the two of you evaluate how things are going by your next anniversary.

My wife and I during our troubled times would say to each other on our anniversary that we would commit to hanging in there to each other for one more year and then see how things are going. It let each other know that we wanted to keep the marriage, but that we needed to work on our marriage and that if either of us was too destructive, the marriage could end.

You sound like you have figured out a lot and you have forgiven enough of the horrible things that you H did, so you can give rebuilding your marriage a good try. I hope that your H gets through his MLC and realizes what a good wife he has. Work on your GAL to show him that he can grow out of his MLC. Note how the Montana wife's 180 of not being pulled into he husbands MLC fights worked for her.

Good luck to you and I hope you find happiness and love.

[anyhope]

The article was great, but I guess only a few people can be so cool about their spouse saying those words. I'm now back to square 1 as I found a text from the ow. Im in pieces. I told him to leave then I realized I could not afford the place on my own, so I told him to stay, but I was mad because he lied again.. And back we go to me crying and him saying he no longer loves me and doesn't think our relationship can be saved. I'm looking to move, but with my finances I'm not sure what I can afford if anything, but staying here knowing that he still lies and talks to the ow is not something I can put up with. So confused, have a major headache from crying. Why can't people just be honest?

[Young at Heart]

At least now you know you did almost all you could do to try to save the marriage.

I guess his words of reconciliation were false.

Good luck to you.