Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 Oh, you did very well, and came out the HERO!
Hope you read Al Turtle's thread here about the Lizard. He explains how to nurture your partner's lizard. It would be good to try that, since your wife seems to have this anxiety.
OTOH, I would install a keylogger. Trust but verify.
I know that lots here don't believe in snooping. But when there are red flags it is only prudent. Because if there IS an affair of some type, all the effort you are putting in won't recover your marriage as long as the affair is active.
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 5195 Snooping is one thing. Snooping on a spouse that left you 7 months ago as a result of your affair is stalking and just another assault on the betrayed spouse (in addition to some very serious crimes).
Edited by Medc (12/13/10 06:38 PM) _________________________ It's not who you are underneath, it is what you do each and everyday that defines you.
Don't go shaking the HO tree and expect an angel to fall out.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: Medc Snooping is one thing. Snooping on a spouse that left you 7 months ago as a result of your affair is stalking and just another assault on the betrayed spouse (in addition to some very serious crimes).
Not that I have decided to keylog, MedC, but it is POSSIBLE that your conclusion that she left me "7 months ago as a result of my affair" is premature/not the whole story.
During the month after she separated, she was texting a former classmate from high school that lives less than 2 hours from us like crazy (one day had 30 txts each way in a 3-4 hr period). When I went back and looked at records, she had been texting that number off and on during the last few months before we separated. She also met up with him in person at least once during the first month that we separated. It is not out of the question that this was a revenge affair (EA or possibly even PA) at the outset. This is what led to my boundary statement that any evidence of an affair on her part would lead to my filing for divorce.
Perhaps it just went on hold or went underground and is coming back to the fore now.
Edited by bustorama (12/13/10 07:56 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/28/10 Posts: 71 Bustor.. She didn't leave you because of YOUR actions.
She left you because of the OM...This is what women always do when interested in OM... Women don't leave until they have someone to grab hold of. Your wife is no different..
I can't figure you out. You act as if you KNOW she isn't having an affair, and yet she is showing all signs of having one...
Quote: During the month after she separated, she was texting a former classmate from high school that lives less than 2 hours from us like crazy (one day had 30 txts each way in a 3-4 hr period). When I went back and looked at records, she had been texting that number off and on during the last few months before we separated.
So, you think is just up and fizzled????... If you believe that then you ARE naive..... Wake up and smell the coffee... There IS another man in the picture. The sooner you admit that and come to grips with it the sooner you will move forward.
Quote: She also met up with him in person at least once during the first month that we separated.
She is also probably meeting up with him when she goes back home for Christmas..
Wake up Bustor.. There IS another man she is intersted in and you are in denial.
There is only ONE reason she would lie to you about her FB account.. Can you figure out that ONE reason? Shouldn't take a rocket scientist...
Quote: Perhaps it just went on hold or went underground and is coming back to the fore now.
Perhaps? Come on Bustor, stop being naive.. Stop being in denial...
More than likely the OM has a gf or is married. Your wife doesn't want to hurt your feelings. She is going to keep lying and hiding this as long as you will accept her lies.
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 5195 Sure it is entirely possible.
It is entirely possible that she tired of what was going on in your marriage (your affairs) and found someone before she left. In no way would that change my advice to you. It appears as though your actions drove her away...and she has a right to stay away.
I'm not saying you shouldn't try honorable things to try and win her back...but imagine for a moment if you get caught putting a key logger on her computer. Not only could she have you arrested and use it against you in divorce proceedings, you would likely have killed even the smallest chance at recovery.
Bustorama, I am about as hard lined anti-infidelity as you are going to find. I go out of my way to stand up for BH's. I just don't view you as the betrayed spouse in this situation. I commend you for the changes you have made but I sincerely believe that a betrayed spouse has a right to live their life as they please.
If you want to fight for your "wife" I would suggest that you continue to work on you and let her know, through adult discussion, that you are willing to be a better man than the one that pushed her away.
As I said, please don't take my word for it...talk to a therapist or a lawyer about putting a key logger on the computer. Sit back and listen to their replies.
And Bustorama...there are plenty of women that are able to leave a man without having another one in the wings.
_________________________ It's not who you are underneath, it is what you do each and everyday that defines you.
Don't go shaking the HO tree and expect an angel to fall out.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: Medc Quote: There is only ONE reason she would lie to you about her FB account.. Can you figure out that ONE reason?
Perhaps she feels it is none of his business.
Quote: She didn't leave you because of YOUR actions.
So a guy has several affairs and neglects his family and you don't think it is possible that his wife left him as a result???
The above dialog pretty much sums up the internal dialog in my mind (with both sides having a voice).
Also, MedC, I didn't say anything further suggesting I am considering keylogging. The question of "how" to win her back, however, may differ depending on whether there is a (secret) OM in picture or not, no?
Edited by bustorama (12/13/10 09:12 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/28/10 Posts: 71 Quote: So a guy has several affairs and neglects his family and you don't think it is possible that his wife left him as a result???
Oh yes, it is possible, but it isn't what happened in this case.
The evidence points to she put up with it UNTIL she found someone else. It wasn't until she started her own affair that she bolted. She didn't have what it took UNTIL she had someone else she liked. This is typical of people having an affair of their own. They ALWAYS blame their spouse.. "you did this, you didn't do that, you didn't this, you didn't that,etc etc"
This is nothing new. She has thrown all the blame and guilt on Bustor and he has fallen for it hook line and sinker......
He is buying into her excuses which keeps the guilt on him and off of her... and it IS working like a charm. Not only is Bustor falling for it, but so are some of the people trying to help him... This doesn't excuse his own behavior, but what he is doing isn't going to work. She is only keeping things friendly because of the holidays and she probably isn't so sure how OM feels or what he is going to do.
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 I didn't know about the former classmate, but now it all makes sense. Couldn't quite understand why she spends so much time with Bustorama if she is having an affair. But the OM is 2 hours away!
It also explains why she wanted Bustorama to take 100 pictures of her for her FB account, and why he and his family are shut out of FB. And why she is lying about FB.
Registered: 11/28/10 Posts: 71 Here is the evidence that she couldn't leave BEFORE she found someone else she liked and the evidence that she DID leave after she was involved... This means that it wasn't Bustor's affair that caused her to leave. If his affair's were the reason she would have left WHEN he had them and she knew about them. She stayed.
Quote: When I went back and looked at records, she had been texting that number off and on during the last few months before we separated.
Registered: 11/28/10 Posts: 71 Quote: I didn't know about the former classmate, but now it all makes sense. Couldn't quite understand why she spends so much time with Bustorama if she is having an affair. But the OM is 2 hours away!
It also explains why she wanted Bustorama to take 100 pictures of her for her FB account, and why he and his family are shut out of FB. And why she is lying about FB.
Yep, it explains a lot.
Yes. It does. All the evidence is in there. One just has to know how to put the puzzle together. The pieces are there.
Registered: 11/28/10 Posts: 71 Well, Bustor is part of the problem here. He seems to only be feeding us what he wants us to know so that we tell him what he wants to hear...
That is why it is crucial when helping people to not take everything they say as the gospel. Many times these people on here are only looking to hear what they want to hear. So, they usually only tell us things that they hope will get us to give them the feedback they want. I see it often that they ones on here and other sites trying to help are actually HURTING the person needing the help because they just can't seem to realize that they are being misled. When they get someone who tells them something they don't want to hear, they either get mad at them or someone else comes to their rescue and starts answering for them and helping them to be stuck and enabled. I don't work that way. That isn't helping them and doesn't work.
I hope this site isn't turning into MBuilders 2 or DBing 2... We already have those sites. We will never be successful as possible until we START SEEING SOME RELATIONSHIPS SAVED OFTEN ON HERE..
The best way and most often way they are saved is to get TOUGH and let them go... It is a proven fact.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 So check this out, guys, so everyone gets the history. My first post to DB was after all this introductory stuff had happened and I thought either it was me being paranoid/controlling or out of the picture. I did allude to it in my DB thread in an exchange with Puppy Dog, though not in this detail.
She deleted me from her FB account ca. June 11 or June 12 after some ginourmous fight where she declared she was afraid I was going to kill her. I didn't think that much of her deleting me from FB because she had done that before here and there when she was pissed off at me. And she was royally pissed off at me.
Sometime around beginning of July, I notice the cell bill is ginormous. I look at cell logs. See all these txt msgs on her account. Lots of different numbers, but this one number showing up somewhat more than others. The day before I looked was the day there were craptons of msgs back and forth with a 5-6 hour gap or so, then resumption of msgs. I reverse cell the # and see the name and location. Recognize the name as name of a former classmate of hers from her facebook that she had become friends with like maybe 5-6 months before and that sometimes posted complimentary stuff to her wall. He had a custody issue where he had a daughter from a recently broken relationship and the story was that he was calling my W to get legal advice for free. I had noticed him on facebook from the spring and was like whatever, this guy is a total loser at the time (recovering heroin addict, jails all this other crap, affair-down?) and even if he is pursuing her with this custody story, there is nothing to worry about (and I trusted her).
So, I guess from the time log (not telling her) that she had gone to visit him and then came back. See her next day at swim lessons, ask her how her evening was. She says, oh I went to go visit an old school friend of mine at his parent's place. They were having a dinner party. I didn't want to feel like a loser and stay at home by myself so I went up there (so she told me about going up there). After the dinner a group of us went to this bar and had these funky bloody mary's blah blah. I said to her, that sounds like a date to me. She started going crazy yelling at me about being controlling, it wasn't a date, just a friend, I just didn't want her to have any guy friends. How would I feel if she accused me of going on a date when I was just hanging out with my friend that was a girl (who I had hung out with a couple nights before, really just a platonic friend). I told her, I would have calmly said that it was not a date. She then said something like, well it was a spur of the moment thing. Just did it once and not gonna do it again anyway, it's so far.
So anyway, the txts sorta continue moderately back and forth between her and this number (maybe 5-10/day or every other day total). There was this strange incident then in mid-July when she had just returned from her hometown (which is about 1500 miles from where we live, 1300 from where OM lives) to visit her family. As she is dropping the D's off, I hear Lady Antebellum's Need You Now coming from the car (lyrics pasted below). W is teary eyed. I ask her wtf is going on, why is she all crying. Is she ok. Says she doesn't want to talk about it. Gets back in car and leaves. I txt her is everything ok? Anything you want to talk about. She says no. I go and look at cell logs and right after my txt msg is received from her, she initiates a call to the guy. They start txting as day goes on.
I call her that day and tell her W, I know what's going on. And she says what are you talking about? And I say I know about you and XX. I see all these calls and texts between you. I have been there, so I understand how it can happen, it is a slippery slope, I will not be holier than thou on you, but this is totally unacceptable to me. I will not be in an open marriage. If there is any affair behavior, emotional or otherwise, I will file for divorce immediately. She says are you crazy?!?!? ?OM? is my friend. He is fat as a house and gross. Do you seriously think I could be with him??? And I can't believe how self-righteous you are when YOU cheated and now you come back and accuse ME of cheating. I say even if it is just you having your emotional needs met by him, non-physical, that is inappropriate, because we are married and it interferes with the possibility of our meeting each other's emotional needs and reconciling. She says I don't want you to meet my emotional needs. Then she launches into the controlling stuff how this proves how controlling I am, stalking her, proves how unsafe I am, etc. etc. Went apeshit saying she wanted a divorce, all kinds of hanging up, saying she wanted me to transfer her cell plan to her so I would stop stalking her. I said, I am not telling you what to do. I am stating my boundary. You are free to make your own choices. I will transfer your cell plan now.
I pretty much figured we were getting divorced at that point and took down all our marriage pictures. A few hours later, she called me up apologizing for her outburst and strong emotional reaction, said she was just stressed out of her mind with work (which she was at the time) and needed some time. As you've seen from rest of thread, she can be extremely reactive so her reaction wasn't really telling to me one way or another whether I was on or off the mark with my accusation. I lost my intel at that point since the cell log was transferred. Family was still friends with her on facebook and would occasionally relay inconsequential msgs between her and ?OM? on wall, innocent, normal frequency.
So during Aug and Sep, W a few times talked about how ?OM? had a new girlfriend and told me stuff ?OM? was telling her about the girlfriend. How they met, how he pursued her. Then he dumped one GF and got another GF, told me about that GF. Then W was sad one day saying ?OM? and the other GF were saying she had a poor job and was underpaid. Then said ?OM? had stopped "bothering" her had sort of vanished because he was "whipped" by new GF. Family corroborated that communications from this ?OM? had become less and less and there was a picture of ?OM? with a different girl each time corresponding to W's reports of ?OM? having new GF. So I concluded that if ?OM? HAD been in the picture that he wasn't really in the picture any more. And by this time W had talked about getting more trust in me and we were spending more and more time together.
Until all this stuff happened around Thanksgiving, and then the ban of my family on FB and the lying on FB, so I wonder if maybe ?OM? is back on the scene? Or an OM2?
The alternative is that my pushing about her business made her just want to push me (and my family) further away. She has blocked my other family members before, also, fwiw, and has complained about having to have them in 'her business.'
So that's my internal debate. All complicated by our good day yesterday.
LYRICS TO SONG PLAYING FROM CAR Picture perfect memories scattered all around the floor Reachin' for the phone 'cause I can't fight it anymore And I wonder if I ever cross your mind For me it happens all the time
It's a quarter after one, I'm all alone and I need you now Said I wouldn't call but I lost all control and I need you now And I don't know how I can do without I just need you now
Another shot of whiskey can't stop looking at the door Wishing you'd come sweeping in the way you did before And I wonder if I ever cross your mind For me it happens all the time
It's a quarter after one, I'm a little drunk and I need you now Said I wouldn't call but I lost all control and I need you now And I don't know how I can do without I just need you now
woah woaaah.
Guess I'd rather hurt than feel nothin' at all
It's a quarter after one I'm a little drunk and I need you now
And I said I wouldn't call but I lost all control and I need you now
And I don't know how I can do without
I just need you now
I just need you now (wait)
Ooo, baby, I need you now
Edited by bustorama (12/13/10 10:35 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 Don't know if it is the same OM or not, but like GL says, the pieces of the puzzle are all there. And the key is her FB account.
I'm probably biased because of my history. I was trying to meet all of my WH's needs, twisting into a pretzel, going to MC, the WORKS.
While I was doing all of that, the affair just became more entrenched. It had been going on for 8 months before I found out about it.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: believer While I was doing all of that, the affair just became more entrenched. It had been going on for 8 months before I found out about it.
How did you find out about yours?
If there is a PROBABLE (but not 100% certain) OM, whose identity I cannot determine, how would my plan differ from the assumption that there is NOT an OM?
I would not be able to file for D if I was not certain. It's that uncertainty that stops me from taking the hard Dobson/Plan B line. Because if I'm wrong, it would seem to be grave mistake.
Edited by bustorama (12/13/10 10:50 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 I know exactly how you feel.
My husband had become distant, and there were tons of warning signs. We laid in bed at night and he told me not to worry, that things would get better. I never suspected an affair, was so trusting and stupid......
And there was a feeling, you must know it, that I was not important to him anymore. His eyes didn't light up when he came home, he was distracted and seemed absent.
So I worked hard on meeting his needs, making things nice for him, being cheerful and upbeat. I let him have space, didn't question him, continued having sex.
While I was working on the marriage, he was making sure that the OW would be there for him. She was a neighbor whose husband was fighting in Iraq.
After 8 months, he didn't come home from work one day. Didn't call, nothing. I was frantic and stayed up all night. He showed up in the morning and told me he had gone camping alone. He had to "think".
It all hit me then. Everything made sense. I told him to take a look at our home, look at the pictures of our kids, that he had 5 minutes to come clean or lose it all. He denied everything and I asked him to leave.
I still had no "proof", but knew the truth in my heart.
Then I started "spying" and found out that he left and moved in with the OW, he'd had a secret cell phone, the affair had gone on for 8 months, his family knew, our life together had been a lie.
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#35303 - 12/14/10 06:56 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer] Medc Member
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 5195 I WOULD recommend spying in a case like Believer's. Your situation is VERY different and does not warrant spying. _________________________ It's not who you are underneath, it is what you do each and everyday that defines you.
Don't go shaking the HO tree and expect an angel to fall out.
medcmbers@zoominternet.net
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#35381 - 12/14/10 10:29 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Medc] believer Member
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 I trust MEDC's judgment. He often disagrees with me.
The thing is, Bustorama seems to be a very involved father. His wife, though she claims to be afraid of him, relies heavily on him to meet some of her ENs.
I don't get taking 100 pictures for FB, going out drinking when she has such young kids, consorting with a former jailbird heroin addict who has custody issues with his own kids.
Now, I'm just going by his description of her, but she doesn't sound very mature and isn't making good choices. And she refuses to get MC.
Whatever he's done in the past, Bustorama seems to spending his time with his kids, and wanting to save his marriage.
As I remember, they have shared custody. It looks to me like the Mrs is either carrying on an affair or looking for one.
Makes me think of the crazy woman in Virginia who met the guy on Facebook and invited him home. Then he beat her to death and took off with her 12 year old daughter.
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#35384 - 12/14/10 10:43 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer] Medc Member
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 5195 I DO think having a PI spy on her for custody and child safety issues IS in order. I don't think that spying for infidelity issues is appropriate in this case.
Bustorama committing a felony could have disastrous impact on his ability to get a good custody agreement. _________________________ It's not who you are underneath, it is what you do each and everyday that defines you.
Don't go shaking the HO tree and expect an angel to fall out.
medcmbers@zoominternet.net
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#35386 - 12/14/10 10:50 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] Don Man Don Member
Registered: 11/26/10 Posts: 926 Originally Posted By: bustorama It's that uncertainty that stops me from taking the hard Dobson/Plan B line.
Huh? Betty Crocker. You are Plan B.
And the longer you sit around contemplating why momma's hiding the cookies up on the top shelf, the less attractive of a "plan" you are becoming.
The thing that puzzles me the most on these sites is the denial of what separation is all about. People separate from their spouse / move out so they CAN explore relationships with other people. It [censored] being lonely and it saves ALOT of hassle when you can sit on the couch and talk on the phone all night, come and go as you please, or get drunk and bring someone home for sex and you don't have a stubborn jealous spouse poking around your computer and cell phone, bothering you with 'where you been' or ridiculous relationship talks, etc. It's an easy way to let them down, also.
The people who get separated just to be alone are few and far between, urban legends maybe, the rest of the world is out getting laid. Your naiveness is depressing. She moved out 7 months ago and she has cut you out of her life. Ah duh. Doesn't take too much to realize : She doesn't want you.
They say the divorce rate is 50% but the longer I am alive the more I realize that number is like 75 - 80% of people divorced, separated or screwing around. And those folks who have the worst success are those that fail to let go and move on. I remember my friend boobzilla saying during her divorce about her pestering co-dependent husband, "if he keeps doing what he's doing he's never got a chance." They got divorced. I could tell you stories of my own separation but it will do no good until you realize that until you are the more attractive package, the excitement that draws people like a magnet, gets the juices flowing, its just another story.
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#35402 - 12/14/10 11:11 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Well, I spoke up for my transgressed boundary on honesty.
W called last night to update me on the hit and run insurance situation with the car. She also told me she had bought one of those run logger things that auto-update your latest run to wherever you want it updated. Then she says yeah my friend from weight watchers told me about it, emailed me about it, so if I go running it can auto-update my latest run to the Weight Watchers website. I said that's cool, yeah, and it can work with your Facebook too, right (she had told me a month or two ago about how they update on Facebook)? And she said, well I don't go on there anymore, haven't in days. (in fact, I knew W had been on there earlier in the day because she had a new profile pic).
So I said, W please stop being dishonest with me, it really bothers me. I know you were on facebook today. And she said huh, no I wasn't? And I said you are being dishonest with me, I can't be in a relationship with you if you are dishonest with me. I know you were on there because you had a new profile pic today. She said, "We are not in a relationship." I said, "I'm sorry you feel that way. I know we are estranged right now, but there is a relationship of some sorts between us -- we are co-parents, I'd like to think we are at least friends, we are legally married." She said, "Whaaa-- How do you know I was on there?" I said I have your page bookmarked from before you banned me and I load it up every now and then to see your front page, see your pic or whatever pic you have of the girls up. So I noticed the picture today was different than yesterday's, so I know you were on today. Please don't lie to me, it really hurts me when you lie to me. W says, "Well what about when you hurt me lying for 2 years about stuff." I said, You are absolutely right, that was very wrong of me. I am sorry I hurt you that way. You did not deserve it. I can only imagine from the hurt I feel when you lie to me about this, how hurt you felt from those lies.
W says, well, I deleted your family and your friends from my profile, and I'm probably going to delete some of my family too now. I don't want people in my business. Please don't tell any of them that I deleted them. She tried to explain who she deleted and why. I interrupted and said, W, thank you for telling me the truth. I really appreciate that. It is your business who is or is not on your FB page. That is not my business right now. What I care about is that you not lie to me. I am not lying to you anymore, and I want us to be honest with each other.
Then W sounded kind of angry said she felt creeped out that I was stalking her. I said, I'm sorry you feel that way. I did look at your facebook front wall yesterday and looked at it again today. I do think about you sometimes and look at the pictures of you or the girls. What you do on facebook is your own world, and I am not trying to interfere with that. I just want you to be honest with me and not lie to me. W still sounded pissed.
So, that's that. I feel better about stating my boundary about the honesty and that W admitted to it. I'm sad that W lied to me, whatever the reason, and also sad that she at first tried to deny it or deflect things to me. I get that though, since I was guilty of it in the past. My guess is she will be more pissed off at me now, more loss of trust, at least for awhile. Also sad of her statement that we are not in a relationship. I am leaning towards letting her go seems to be the way to go based on how things are going, but probably won't go that way until after Christmas. Some of the bad taste she may have from the latest stuff may have dissipated a bit, and perhaps intervening good experiences with me. Also so not as to disrupt Christmas stuff for the girls with coincident drama.
Thoughts? _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#35407 - 12/14/10 11:18 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] TimeHeals Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 2324 Loc: Tennessee Quote: I am leaning towards letting her go
In all honesty, you cannot do that because she is already gone.
All you can do is admit it yourself. Your only choice in the matter of where she is emotionally in terms of your marriage right now is whether or not you accept the reality of where she is, and she is gone. _________________________ Your Time Perspective Can Heal Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
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#35408 - 12/14/10 11:21 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: TimeHeals] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 OK, given that. Do I need to SAY anything in January? (a setting them free type speech?) or just do my own thing, stop focusing on her, do my own thing, be unavailable when she comes seeking my time/support/etc.
_________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#35415 - 12/14/10 11:25 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] TimeHeals Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 2324 Loc: Tennessee Do the right thing. Sit down and figure out what the right thing to do is, admit where you are in terms of your present reality, and then focus on doing things that you can be proud of doing that are likely to yeild positive results for you personally.
No matter what happens, you can deal with this, and it's never too late to lead a life of honor and integrity.
You can do this. _________________________ Your Time Perspective Can Heal Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
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#35417 - 12/14/10 11:26 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] Medc Member
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 5195 Bustorama, if my ex (even if the paperwork was not completed) that I had left 7 months prior confronted me with the same stuff, I would also feel stalked.
She is right...you don't have a relationship. Just because you want one (and have regrets about how you handled your marriage) doesn't make it so.
She no more owes you the truth than she owes you a chance at recovery. Both of those should be considered gifts from her at this point. It would be nice to get...but you can't expect them.
Why do you feel that she should freely provide you with information about her personal life??? Take a look at my posting history Bust. I am VERY pro-BH. Heck, I am considered very hard on WW's. Your actions creep me out a bit. I can imagine that your wife really feels creeper out.
Please note that everything I am saying here is only in regards to your wife and your "relationship" with her. I think it is always important to act in the best interests of your children...even if it conflicts with the wants/desires of the other parent. Kids come first IMHO.
_________________________ It's not who you are underneath, it is what you do each and everyday that defines you.
Don't go shaking the HO tree and expect an angel to fall out.
medcmbers@zoominternet.net
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 5195 Originally Posted By: TimeHeals Quote: I am leaning towards letting her go
In all honesty, you cannot do that because she is already gone.
All you can do is admit it yourself. Your only choice in the matter of where she is emotionally in terms of your marriage right now is whether or not you accept the reality of where she is, and she is gone.
Good points TH.
Bust...just become the best man and father that you can be. Let everything else fall where it will. _________________________ It's not who you are underneath, it is what you do each and everyday that defines you.
Don't go shaking the HO tree and expect an angel to fall out.
medcmbers@zoominternet.net
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#35428 - 12/14/10 11:45 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Medc] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: Medc Bustorama, if my ex (even if the paperwork was not completed) that I had left 7 months prior confronted me with the same stuff, I would also feel stalked.
Yeah, I think the issue probably comes from POV. She must view me as her "ex" whereas I had viewed us, until now, as together, but separated/in limbo, in part because I was focused on stuff she was saying to me (I need to work on me before I can work on us; you are fixed, now I just need to fix myself, etc) instead of her actions.
Originally Posted By: Medc She is right...you don't have a relationship....She no more owes you the truth....
I disagree with this. I am not friends with people that lie to me. I expect the truth from my friends and from my ex-W from first marriage. I give them the truth back. W and I may not be in a romantic relationship, but I expect honesty in my personal relationships.
Originally Posted By: Medc Why do you feel that she should freely provide you with information about her personal life???
I didn't ask for information on her personal life in this case. I asked her not to lie to me. When she started telling me about her choices on who to have / not have on FB, I stopped her and said that was her business, not mine.
Originally Posted By: Medc I think it is always important to act in the best interests of your children...even if it conflicts with the wants/desires of the other parent. Kids come first IMHO.
YES!
_________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#35430 - 12/14/10 11:47 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Do I "owe" her any statement that I am stepping back, letting her live her life as I focus on my own? Verbally relieving her of my pressure on her? _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#35433 - 12/14/10 11:57 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] Pinhead Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 627 Busto,
What would your expectations be in regards to giving her such a statement?
_________________________ The best things in life aren't things.
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#35434 - 12/14/10 11:58 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] MyRevelation Member
Registered: 09/08/10 Posts: 756 Originally Posted By: bustorama Originally Posted By: Medc She is right...you don't have a relationship....She no more owes you the truth....
I disagree with this. I am not friends with people that lie to me. I expect the truth from my friends and from my ex-W from first marriage. I give them the truth back. W and I may not be in a romantic relationship, but I expect honesty in my personal relationships.
Get your head around this concept ... SHE IS NOT YOUR FRIEND ... she is your STBXW ... and regardless of what you may want ... EX's are not friends. It is just the way it is ... once you have been M'd to someone and that falls apart ... for whatever reason ... there is simply too much emotional baggage and past hurts to be able to maintain any type of "friendship" with that person.
So ... she is not your friend ... therefore, she has no duty to tell you the truth.
ACCEPT IT ... and move on!!! _________________________ "If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." - Will Rogers
"I'm a juvenile product of the working class, whose best friend floats in the bottom of a glass." - Elton John
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 2324 Loc: Tennessee Quote: Same thing. You were asking her about being on FB. And btw Bust, her Facebook page is her personal life.
OK, I am pretty sure that horse has stopped breathing, so we can stop beating it now grin
You get the picture, right Busto?
Your wife thinks she's single right now. That is her operating reality at this time.
You need to worry about YOU and your progeny. You're going to be a great dad, a great man, and an all around good human being who is proactive, taking care of business, and looking forward to building a better tomorrow for now.
If you catch yourself worrying about what your wife is doing that doesn't impact you financially or legally, say this to yourself: "I get it. She doesn't love me the way a woman is supposed to love her husband".
Nothing else to say about it right now. It is what it is.
Edited by TimeHeals (12/14/10 12:25 PM) _________________________ Your Time Perspective Can Heal Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: Pinhead Busto,
What would your expectations be in regards to giving her such a statement?
I guess it's that I feel bad about my actions and how she was probably experiencing them given what I've heard on here. That I wasn't "getting it" that I did have my nose in her business, where it shouldn't have been. That's what I mean by "owing" it to her?
There also is a component that I want to communicate to her that my change in focus away from her is not anger towards her. I would prefer that my change in focus not be perceived as anger (since she tends to see anger in me) as that might strain our interactions. I guess I can disabuse that simply by continuing to be pleasant and happy when I do see her.
What about the first part though about apologizing for being in her business?
Edited by bustorama (12/14/10 01:38 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 627 Originally Posted By: bustorama Originally Posted By: Pinhead Busto,
What would your expectations be in regards to giving her such a statement?
I guess it's that I feel bad about my actions and how she was probably experiencing them given what I've heard on here. That I wasn't "getting it" that I did have my nose in her business, where it shouldn't have been. That's what I mean by "owing" it to her?
There also is a component that I want to communicate to her that my change in focus away from her is not anger towards her. I would prefer that my change in focus not be perceived as anger (since she tends to see anger in me) as that might strain our interactions. I guess I can simply disabuse that simply by continuing to be pleasant and happy when I do see her.
What about the first part though about apologizing for being in her business?
I think you gave her enough of an explanation. It's a public site, and if she doesn't want people looking at her profile, she shouldn't post on FB. _________________________ The best things in life aren't things.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: TimeHeals
You get the picture, right Busto?
Unfortunately (or fortunately?), yeah....
Originally Posted By: TimeHeals You need to worry about YOU and your progeny. You're going to be a great dad
Hey, I already am a great dad! ;p Will work on being even better though =)
Originally Posted By: TimeHeals a great man, and an all around good human being who is proactive, taking care of business, and looking forward to building a better tomorrow for now.
I sorta feel like I need physical space from her to detach/heal? Unusual? This is the first time I've been the dumpee in such a significant relationship, so I'm a bit at a loss. It's strange, I think Pin is right that I really reattached when things had seemed better between us, but I guess maybe it was false/premature hope? I felt less invested a couple of months ago.
Originally Posted By: TimeHeals "I get it. She doesn't love me the way a woman is supposed to love her husband".
My new mantra.
_________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#35556 - 12/14/10 02:21 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] rob x Member
Registered: 11/12/10 Posts: 1383 a little birdie sent me a msg telling me you were sucking a$$ in your situation, ok, I think it was you, LOL!
Sorry, I haven't been on the site in a while, christmas season and work and family life, busy, busy, busy, I don't even have time for crackbook lately and that is essentially the greatest tragedy in all of this..... wink
Are you really ready to let go or are you still trying to convince yourself?
Can we make someone love us?
Say for this one example, we could make someone love us. We could snap our fingers and make someone love us.
Magic.
Would you want that?
Sounds tempting.
And it might be great to begin with because a lot of people would try that to begin with.
After a while though, something would sink in, you would know that although it feels great, on some level, it isn't real.
Why?
Because you made that person love you. Their love wasn't given freely and if it isn't given freely, it really isn't worth it.
You have to realize this.
Let go of apologizing to her. Let go of explaining things to her. Let go of creeping her crackbook page and seeing what she's up to.
If she really wants out and away from you which is what she's telling you, give her what she wants.
Smile and open the cage door, "you have served your sentence and you are now free to go."
That last sentence applies to your wife and to you.
2011 is around the corner, I expect great things for you in that year, ultimately it's up to you to make 2011 a great year, I think you can do it.
Start with christmas this year, make some great memories for you and the kids, start taking care of yourself, stop worrying about your wife, the sooner you consider this marriage over, the sooner things can turn around if they are in fact meant to turn around.
I'll reply in a bit later on, just wanted to touch base and say hey,
"....Hey!"
wink
_________________________ “Man’s proper stature is not one of mediocrity, failure, frustration, or defeat, but one of achievement, strength, and nobility. In short, man can and ought to be a hero.”
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#35750 - 12/14/10 07:20 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: rob x] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 HERE WE GO
1. When someone rejects me and the relationship I have shared with them by breaking up with me, I will register this red flag, step back, and not attempt to change their mind.
She has moved out. She has said we are no longer together anymore. She has said we are not in a relationship. She has said we are "broken up." She has blocked me from facebook since June. She has refused to work on the relationship and gets angry when I bring up the relationship. Although she has said that I am fixed, refers to me as her husband (not ex) in public, and has paid lip service to reconciliation, there has been no ACTION on that front. ***I SEE A RED FLAG***
2. I will not settle for less for the sake of having some crumbs rather than nothing at all.
I BARELY EVEN GET CRUMBS. MIXTURE OF CB AND CRUMBS (she buys me groupons here and there, makes me meals here and there). I feel disrespected by her and not that she looks forward to seeing me.
3. I will cut contact to give myself time and space to grieve the loss of the relationship.
I WILL STOP INITIATING CONTACT TOWARDS HER TOWARDS / THROUGH CHRISTMAS. FOCUS ON LITTLE ONES. How you guys suggest acting if she initiates contact towards me in context of family time? Do it for the kids, focus on them?
4. I will recognise lazy communication for what it is and not inflate it into them actually missing me and wanting to get back together.
YEP, maybe she's bored. Wants a fix of my attention or maybe family time. If she wants me and reconciliation, I will KNOW it, not wonder it. Think of how I acted when I wanted her and reconciliation. Not subtle...
5. For the sake of not confusing myself or causing me to do something that I later regret, I will not sleep with my ex. If I do, I will accept responsibility for the consequences.
HEH, not an option.
6. I will not bombard them with my love.
I will be a good man to her and around her.
7. I will recognise when I am becoming obsessed with my ex and will force myself to step back so that I don't end up trapped in denial.
No more facebook creeping. Let her text and FB who she wants. I will use the TH mantra when I find myself thinking of her, My W doesn't love me like a woman should love her husband." and focus on something else I am grateful for.
8. I will not punish myself for the breakup by neglecting me or doing stuff that is essentially me acting without love, care, trust, and respect towards myself.
I made serious mistakes. But, they are in the past and I have made amends in my behavior. Will continue to do so. I have expressed my remorse and amends to my wife. Will seek to grow physically, emotionally, spiritually, mentally in some way each day.
ONE QUESTION here guys I had made a giant remorse/regret list. Some of these remorses I never shared with my W because my IC said she was too fragile, that I should wait until "we were back together." He was convinced we would reconcile. Should I share those remorses with her for completeness? Or you think she's gotten the message from all the other apologies I've made.
9. I will not keep trying to get back together with someone who has already rejected me more than once.
Heh. I've been rejected so much, I have almost become desensitized to it.
10. I will not wait and put my life on hold for anyone.
No time to live like the present.
Edited by bustorama (12/14/10 07:36 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 10/16/10 Posts: 59 Originally Posted By: bustorama
ONE QUESTION here guys I had made a giant remorse/regret list. Some of these remorses I never shared with my W because my IC said she was too fragile, that I should wait until "we were back together." He was convinced we would reconcile. Should I share those remorses with her for completeness? Or you think she's gotten the message from all the other apologies I've made. [/b]
You share them with her when SHE wants to reconcile.
NO MORE APOLOGIES. If there is someone else it just doesn't matter. I still remember her calling you "Mr. Perfect" in spew form, why add more fuel to the fire? smile
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#35864 - 12/15/10 01:04 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: SurvivalnAK] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Made Gingersnap Pops with the girls tonight. The girls were so awesome, we really had a good time. Was awesome to spend some great quality time with them after an emotionally draining day. I really needed it.
Probably ate a few more than I should have and am gonna get on the elliptical in bit. 42 days til my half marathon. Time to get my butt in gear. =) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#35943 - 12/15/10 05:15 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] kimmie lee Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 2738 Loc: SEATTLE, WA Busto, your w is "afraid" of you? That's laughable. How come she's not "afraid" of you while you are running around like a chicken with your head cut off running errands for her, picking up her ridiculous wedding stuff, grocery shopping for her, etc, etc??
And please, she gets in a fender-bender or her car needs repairs? Tough! [censored] to be her, Dear!
Stop apologizing to her. In fact, stop talking to her AT ALL! Stop everything. Hit the brakes so hard that she goes flying through the windshield.
And stop with her lame-@ss excuses about her family of origin issues and past boyfriends. Why do you allow her to keep beating you over the head with that f'ed up sh!t?
She really is a piece of work.
LET HER GO. PUSH HARD FOR A DIVORCE.
Also, please, stop telegraphing any of your moves to her. You are not helping your sitch by handing this info to her on a silver platter with a side order of more cake for her to keep eating.
And stop backing down every time she is nicey-nice to you. It's nauseating. _________________________ THE FOG comes on little cat feet.
It sits looking over harbor and city on silent haunches and then moves on....C. Sandburg
GOSH!! GOLLY!!
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#36032 - 12/15/10 10:14 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: kimmie lee] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: kimmie lee Busto, your w is "afraid" of you? That's laughable. How come she's not "afraid" of you while you are running around like a chicken with your head cut off running errands for her, picking up her ridiculous wedding stuff, grocery shopping for her, etc, etc??
And please, she gets in a fender-bender or her car needs repairs? Tough! [censored] to be her, Dear!
Stop apologizing to her. In fact, stop talking to her AT ALL! Stop everything. Hit the brakes so hard that she goes flying through the windshield.
And stop with her lame-@ss excuses about her family of origin issues and past boyfriends. Why do you allow her to keep beating you over the head with that f'ed up sh!t?
She really is a piece of work.
LET HER GO. PUSH HARD FOR A DIVORCE.
Also, please, stop telegraphing any of your moves to her. You are not helping your sitch by handing this info to her on a silver platter with a side order of more cake for her to keep eating.
And stop backing down every time she is nicey-nice to you. It's nauseating.
Thanks for the advice and key observations, Kimmie =)
I was struck by three things last night.
1) W called at one point to ask me to put book for D5 in D5's backpack. W will be reading to D5 at school. I was surprised that W was pleasant on phone (in contrast to previous night when she learned I was creeping on her facebook). Anyway, at one point W said something about repairs to the bumper on her car and said, "It's nice if WE won't have to pay for that." I said, "Yeah, it'd be nice if you don't have to pay for the bumper on your car." How did we get from a seething WE ARE NOT IN A RELATIONSHIP to a happy "we" paying for her bumper overnight?
2) The time when W spoke the most about possible reconciliation was the time when I did not call her after the police were sent out on a suicide check to her apartment.
3) I had completely forgotten this memory (denial? selective amnesia? very strange), but something Pin posted reminded me of it. You may remember that W gave me a pre-bomb in Summer of 2009 that she wanted to divorce me. I begged, pleaded, engaged in all kinds of Plan A behavior, allowed myself to be banished to couch for the whole year (over supplicating). So, W stayed in house, but still acting angry and woe is me. Around Thanksgiving 2009, she went to restroom while making an email to her girl friend that was in the process of getting divorced and the screen said:
Yeah, I have him kissing my ass. He's wrapped around my finger. Not sure what I'm going to do.
I said to her wtf is this disprespectful crap. She said oh I don't really feel that way, that's just how girls talk to each other. And the whole time leading up to that she had been acting like woe is me....
_________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#36045 - 12/15/10 10:40 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] Pinhead Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 627 Originally Posted By: bustorama
Yeah, I have him kissing my ass. He's wrapped around my finger. Not sure what I'm going to do.
I said to her wtf is this disprespectful crap. She said oh I don't really feel that way, that's just how girls talk to each other. And the whole time leading up to that she had been acting like woe is me....
Doesn't sound like much has changed in a year...
And yeah, that's how girls talk to each other when they don't respect the guy they're with, but don't have someone else to replace them with. _________________________ The best things in life aren't things.
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#36051 - 12/15/10 10:59 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] Not2fun Member
Registered: 09/06/10 Posts: 1388 Loc: Gateway to the West Originally Posted By: bustorama
. I begged, pleaded, engaged in all kinds of Plan A behavior, allowed myself to be banished to couch for the whole year (over supplicating).
Begging and pleading is NOT Plan A. Not now, not EVER.....
Buster,
Let me ask you this....
WHAT exactly is RECOVERY to YOU?
How do you PLAN on getting there?
See that is the BEST thing MB does have to offer. It has a GREAT Recovery PLAN. A Plan on HOW a marriage SHOULD be. It is very solid, very concrete.
It was me selling MB's recovery PLAN, me BELIEVING in it, and standing BY THOSE CONVICTIONS....that made a very foggy, wayward Mr. Not start to DOUBT his actions and the affair.
I'm a bit unclear on to HOW you would Plan to Recovery your marriage. I suspect your wife is too...
And as far as being afraid of you....think really hard on that one. The devastation caused by an affair is emmense. Most all BS are very afraid of the WS, after all, we know first hand at the destruction they can cause....Her fear being laughable?? Hardly... Not2fun
Edited by Not2fun (12/15/10 11:00 AM) _________________________ If you aren't being transparent, then you aren't being authentic. If you aren't being authentic, then you are being a hypocrite."
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: Not2fun Begging and pleading is NOT Plan A. Not now, not EVER.....
There was genuine Plan A stuff in there after the begging and pleading. Lots of acts of service and words of affirmation. Being attentive to her needs and seeking and welcoming companionship/conversation, gave so many back massages my hands became hands of steel (with massages immediately followed by my being sent to sleep downstairs. It started as begging and pleading but there were real sustained Plan A stuff for a few months and it got to the "wrapped around my finger comment."
Originally Posted By: Not2fun
WHAT exactly is RECOVERY to YOU?
Mutual respect. Mutual attraction. Mutual trust. Mutual love and loving actions. Mutual desire to be with the other person and work on building a healthy relationship as equals for the rest of our lives. Mutual patience. Mutual understanding. Mutual forgiveness. I guess for all of these SELF as well, not only mutual.
Originally Posted By: Not2fun How do you PLAN on getting there?
See that is the BEST thing MB does have to offer. It has a GREAT Recovery PLAN. A Plan on HOW a marriage SHOULD be. It is very solid, very concrete.
It was me selling MB's recovery PLAN, me BELIEVING in it, and standing BY THOSE CONVICTIONS....that made a very foggy, wayward Mr. Not start to DOUBT his actions and the affair.
My Ms. Busto has not wanted to come to the table try as I have to meet her EN's or to "sell" recovery plans to her. We have to arrive at respect and trust as prerequisites first, I think, before we could work on recovery.She does not respect or trust me if I give myself away. She does not respect or trust me if I don't respect her wishes to be separate from me. Or maybe she has to decide she is ready to forgive. I cannot make her forgive me through my actions. She can see me from a distance and see if I am a good man to our kids and, to her, if she comes around.
Originally Posted By: Not2fun I'm a bit unclear on to HOW you would Plan to Recovery your marriage. I suspect your wife is too...
I have explicitly said I get that I hurt her badly and so deeply, how sorry I am, how wrong it was of me, she did not deserve it and it was fully my own responsibility for making terrible choices, that I want to stand with her and support her as she heals, will hold her hand through whatever healing process she would like us to do, want her to tell me how I can help her feel safe, have done things to try to help her feel safe, offered 100% transparency, asked her open-ended questions of what she wanted from me, changed my distracting/neglecting behavior, explicitly apologized for hurting her, been attentive to her needs and our kids' needs, actively listened to her when she chose to share her world with me, empathized, suggested perhaps outsiders could help the situation -- marital counseling, retrouvaille, etc..
RESULT? "We are not in a relationship." "I am afraid of you." "I do not want to work on this relationship." She is living there. I am living here.
Yes, her fear of getting back into a relationship with me might be very real. I get that. And it would be possible to be scared of getting back into a relationship with me, yet still enjoy the fruits of my reconciliation labors. May be where we are now. I have gone with that for some time so she knows that I can bear fruit and am willing to bear fruit, but it is not good to do so indefinitely. Not healthy for me, not healthy for her, not good example for our kids. And, moreover, she has never consistently told me she wants a relationship.
Tell me, how would you see a Plan A in my situation?
Edited by bustorama (12/15/10 02:00 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/16/10 Posts: 989 Originally Posted By: bustorama
RESULT? "We are not in a relationship." "I am afraid of you." "I do not want to work on this relationship." She is living there. I am living here.
So now you know her stance, what's yours?
You said she won't respect you if you won't let her separate.
Let me tell you a little story:
Alexandra wants to eat cake. The moist kind with icing and strawberries and all of the yummy deliciousness that one can imagine for a decadent dessert. Alexandra has been eyeing that slice of cake for a very long time, she wants nothing more than to get a taste of it.
Julian, the world famous pie baker, does not want Alexandra to have that piece of cake. It's fattening, not as good as the pie he's got in the oven right now, he spent so much time making it and baking it, it was her favorite dessert before, he cannot possibly understand why she'd want to eat cake when she can have his homemade pie.
This doesn't jive well with Alexandra, as you can imagine. She's huffed and she's puffed and she's told him a thousand times, she will eat her cake, she doesn't want his pie.
He keeps asking her, can't she smell it baking in the oven? It's the best pie there is. It's won the pie contest the last 5 years at the annual pie festival. He cries out, EAT THE PIE, Alexandra! Wait for it, it's almost done baking! I can even add a new ingredient to it if you like, serve it up with some vanilla ice cream, your favorite kind, garnish it with some cinnamon, add all the sweet things you like.
Alexandra is pouting in the corner, hands folded over her chest. I want my cake! Why wont you let me have my cake? If you won't let me eat my cake, I am going to eat it any way and there is nothing you can do!!!
Julian is defeated. And hello, why not? He is, in fact, the best pie baker in town. This is an insult to his pie-making skills. But he grows tired of her wanting to eat her cake and so one day he says, Fine. Eat your cake. But you can't have my pie anymore.
And so it goes. Alexandra goes on to eat her cake. So yummy, so delicious, it's everything she imagined.
Choose your own adventure time.
Alexandra may or may not get tired of eating that damn cake (and consume all those calories, hello, I hear she's even had to hit the gym lately, she has to make up for over-indulging, not to mention the nauseous feeling in her stomach, all the sweetness may be making her sick).
She may get sick of the cake or maybe one day she looks up and realizes, This really [censored]. I will never get to eat Julian's world-famous pie again because I made this choice...
No woman likes to be denied the things she wants. Edit: No PERSON likes to be denied the things they want.
What I'm saying here is: If she NEVER has the option to never taste the pie again and only be able to eat cake... she will NEVER know what it's like to experience life without the pie.
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 Where did you get my story from? crazy
I have to have a serious talk with HIH when he comes back. No more kissing and telling. _________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Yeah, it's time for me to move the bakery to the other side of town, fix it up and work on some new pie recipes for a grand re-opening. Not enough paying customers on this side of town.
btw, my dental hygienist asked me for my phone # today, lol. I said, I'm not back on the market yet, but I will be back for a cleaning in 6 months. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#36500 - 12/15/10 10:56 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] kimmie lee Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 2738 Loc: SEATTLE, WA Originally Posted By: bustorama Yeah, it's time for me to move the bakery to the other side of town, fix it up and work on some new pie recipes for a grand re-opening. Not enough paying customers on this side of town.
btw, my dental hygienist asked me for my phone # today, lol. I said, I'm not back on the market yet, but I will be back for a cleaning in 6 months.
Awesome! dancing _________________________ THE FOG comes on little cat feet.
It sits looking over harbor and city on silent haunches and then moves on....C. Sandburg
Registered: 10/16/10 Posts: 59 Originally Posted By: bustorama Yeah, it's time for me to move the bakery to the other side of town, fix it up and work on some new pie recipes for a grand re-opening. Not enough paying customers on this side of town.
btw, my dental hygienist asked me for my phone # today, lol. I said, I'm not back on the market yet, but I will be back for a cleaning in 6 months.
See! Someone who wants to be with you! Bet your Wife will miss you when she sees you let go.
Not being an A-hole Busto, but shinola has to change. Your kids + YOU + A good life = success.
Hang in there friend.
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#36603 - 12/16/10 10:08 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] pookie69 Member
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 Originally Posted By: bustorama btw, my dental hygienist asked me for my phone # today, lol. I said, I'm not back on the market yet, but I will be back for a cleaning in 6 months.
grin
My favorite bartender asked me the other day why she has not seen me with my W. I told her that things have changed. Suddenly she told me all about the breakup with her fiance and that she needs to find a roommate. grin
My palms are hairy and vision is blurry, but I will also wait a little until my next cleaning. grin
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
He declared, yeah I don't see this working out. She's got too much anger, too much acting out. I don't see you as being alone very long, though.
He recommmended a speech along the lines of the following. (Would love alternative recommendations or edits):
First of all, I want you again to know that I am sorry how I hurt you. I've worked hard to change back to the guy I should have been all along and will keep working on being that guy. If I could, I would time travel and undo my bad actions and your hurts, whether or not we were together. I've asked you what you've wanted or needed from me to heal, and done what I've can.
I also want you to know that I do care about you and am interested in you.
BUT
I see how angry you still are at me and that you want to block me out of your life.
I see that you don't want to be with me or work towards being with me.
I see that you resent me and will lie to me to get more space from me.
I finally get it. You don't love me the way a woman should love her husband.
It's time for each of us to have that space fully. The cage door is open. You are free to go.
I don't want to be the target of your anger or resentment anymore.
Unless something changes, I agree that it's time to start living truly separate lives. I don't think it's a good idea that we spend family time together, etc. etc. (help me fill in others?)
Thanks for any input or let me know if you think the speech is a bad idea or a different speech would be better.
Edited by bustorama (12/16/10 01:37 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 There are a bit too much mind reading in there.
Just agree that you don't want this anymore becuase of YOURSELF.
"You're right, you've never been the wife I've wanted or needed. And I don't know if I'll ever be able to forgive myself for not seeing this."
Sorry Pin for using your tagline. wink
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Registered: 11/16/10 Posts: 989 Or just "This isn't working for me anymore so I agree with you taht it's best that we separate. Let's be the best co-parents we can be."
Has a separation/D been filed in this sitch?
If so, tell her you will be contacting your L if you have and etc.
Originally Posted By: believer My guess is she will need you for something within a day of you setting her free. THAT is going to be your problem.
Agreed. You must work on not be baited into any arguments/BS.
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 627 Since you're giving it in person, this one is just too long. Try this instead:
"First of all, I want you again to know that I am sorry how I hurt you. I've worked hard to change back to the guy I should have been all along and will keep working on being that guy. If I could, I would time travel and undo my bad actions and your hurts, whether or not we were together. I've asked you what you've wanted or needed from me to heal, and done what I've can.
But this isn't working for us. There's too much hostility and anger towards me, and it's affecting not only me and you, but our children. I think that it's in my best interest for us to live truly separate lives; and at a later date, evaluate whether we should move from our separation to divorce."
_________________________ The best things in life aren't things.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Version 2 (or are you guys suggesting dropping EVERYTHING before the BUT?)
First of all, I want you again to know that I am sorry how I hurt you. I've worked to change back to the guy I should have been all along and will keep working on being that guy.
BUT
This situation isn't working for me anymore. I want to be with someone who values me and wants to be with me (or does that just bait her anger????). Unless something changes, I agree with you that we should start living truly separate lives. The cage door is open. You are free to go.
I also don't think it's a good idea that we spend family time together anymore. I will always be a great dad to our girls and hope we can be good co-parents together. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 Originally Posted By: bustorama Version 2 (or are you guys suggesting dropping EVERYTHING before the BUT?)
First of all, I want you again to know that I am sorry how I hurt you. I've worked to change back to the guy I should have been all along and will keep working on being that guy.
BUT
This situation isn't working for me anymore. I don't want to be with someone who does not values me and nor wants to be with me (or does that just bait her anger????) (can't get angry for that). Unless something changes, I agree with you that we should start living truly separate lives. The cage door is open. You are free to go.
I also don't think it's a good idea that we spend family time together anymore. I will always be a great dad to our girls and hope we can be good co-parents together.
Make it all about YOU and YOUR decision.
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Registered: 11/16/10 Posts: 989 Originally Posted By: bustorama
First of all, I want you again to know that I am sorry how I hurt you. I've worked to change back to the guy I should have been all along and will keep working on being that guy.
BUT
This situation isn't working for me anymore. I want to be with someone who values me and wants to be with me (or does that just bait her anger????). Unless something changes, I agree with you that we should start living truly separate lives. The cage door is open. You are free to go.
I also don't think it's a good idea that we spend family time together anymore. I will always be a great dad to our girls and hope we can be good co-parents together.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Thanks so much for all the input guys. Can you explain why cross out these?
1) I want to be with someone who values me and wants to be with me. (to indicate what is not working anymore?)
2) I have decided that I want to live truly separate lives. (to indicate what my solution for me is to "This not working anymore is"?)
3) I think we should stop with the shared family time. My IC had suggested putting that in to indicate the family time should stop, we really should live separately?
Thanks again for your help, I really appreciate. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 Originally Posted By: Soleil Originally Posted By: bustorama
First of all, I want you again to know that I am sorry how I hurt you. I've worked to change back to the guy I should have been all along and will keep working on being that guy.
BUT
This situation isn't working for me anymore. I want to be with someone who values me and wants to be with me (or does that just bait her anger????). Unless something changes, I agree with you that we should start living truly separate lives. The cage door is open. You are free to go.
I also don't think it's a good idea that we spend family time together anymore. I will always be a great dad to our girls and hope we can be good co-parents together.
Girl with very few words, aren't you? wink
I guess this conversation with you would take 15 seconds. Time well spent. grin
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 2324 Loc: Tennessee Does she ever call?
I prefer "organic" communication (no technology including paper), but you have to know what your principles are and the gist of what is crucial to pull that off.
For me, that came when my wife was calling even though she didn't want to be married "because we can still be friends".
That's when it just came spilling out for me: I get it, you don't love me the way a wife should love her husband, but we most certainly are NOT going to be buddies because I cannot imagine--for the life of me--a future Mrs TimeHeals saying, "Honey, let's invite ex-Mrs. TimeHeals over for dinner". It's just not going to happen, but that's alright with me.
A note didn't work out well for me. I'd sent a few sentences, and I got a small novel in response just re-affirming whatever she was basically saying all along despite what I sent, so I am not sure she really got it until I just told her, and she could hear that I was serious.
Edited by TimeHeals (12/16/10 03:38 PM) _________________________ Your Time Perspective Can Heal Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 982 Most of us are just like you, Busto. We want to get everything in the speech that we can. But, really, how much needs to be said that she doesn't already know?
I think Soliel is right - straight to the point. Lay it out there for her and leave it. I know any time I get long winded with my W I end up stumbling all over myself trying to explain why I said this or that, what I meant was, here's what I was trying to say....you get the idea. I have got the best results by keeping it short and sweet and walking away before an argument can start. Of course, I then fail to follow through. That's where I have screwed up and need to man up and actually do what I say.
Short and sweet and let it sink in to her. She knows.
Good luck.
IDU _________________________ M 11yrs. Together 16yrs Twin S 11 D 7 S 5 Me 44 W 37 Bomb Sept. 09 She moved out 7/17/2011
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 OK, so re: anticipated questions
I guess ideally I would be able to walk away without getting drawn into big convo
but what about stuff like
1) Do you intend to file now?
I will consult with lawyer regarding my best options.
2) Are you dating/going to date?
I am not dating anyone yet vs.
I'm not sure why you would care or think that is your business?
What other questions sometimes come up so I can be prepared? _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/16/10 Posts: 989 First, let me say when I edited what you wrote, I envisioned you saying these words to her verbally, not via text/writing, etc.
Originally Posted By: bustorama Can you explain why cross out these?
The reason for the cross outs is because the extra words are unneccesary, IMO. It's succinct and to the point and when you tell her "this is not working for me anymore, you are conveying ALL of this:
I want to be with someone who values me and wants to be with me.
I have decided that I want to live truly separate lives.
I think we should stop with the shared family time.
The less you say, the more it gets her thinking and gets the point across that you mean business, aren't waffling anymore, aren't "waiting" for her anymore to make a move. This puts you in the position of leading, of taking the bull by the horns, of letting her know you won't accept the relationship as is anymore.
Do not, for the life of you, mention a cage door being opened because it just brings images of a trapped animal ready to scurry away from her captor. Do not go there at all, as much as you like.
Pookie, the less said, the better in this case. Especially when the other party has already stated numerous times she is done.
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 I wouldn't worry too much about the wording or anticipated questions because the problem is most likely going to be YOU.
My guess is that the Mrs kind of likes her life like it is now, with you jumping through hoops to meet some of her needs. She isn't going to give that up easily.
Registered: 11/16/10 Posts: 989 Originally Posted By: bustorama 1) Do you intend to file now?
I will be reviewing my options including contacting a lawyer.
Originally Posted By: bustorama Are you dating/going to date?
1. I have not decided that yet or 2. I am not dating at the moment but I may in the future.
Than walk away with your head held high. Find your favorite song on the radio and crank it up, baby.
smile
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#37156 - 12/17/10 12:38 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Soleil] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Hmm, I just thought of something prompted by a msg that Gucci posted.
When W and I first met, she said one of the things about me that most attracted her to me was that I "did not put up with her shinola." That I stood up to her. I guess she had been able to steamroll previous boyfriends and "did not want to be with them."
It makes sense from that perspective, then, why my allowing her to dictate the circumstances of her leaving and supplicating was as ineffective as it was.
Later in our relationship, unfortunately, that part of me became perceived as constantly controlling her -- a negative -- and even scary.
Edited by bustorama (12/17/10 01:01 AM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#37157 - 12/17/10 12:43 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] TimeHeals Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 2324 Loc: Tennessee Quote: Later, unfortunately, that part of me became perceived as constantly controlling her -- a negative -- and even scary.
There's an important yet fine line between confidence and arrogance, eh? _________________________ Your Time Perspective Can Heal Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
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#37158 - 12/17/10 12:50 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: TimeHeals] believer Member
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 For most women, a condition of love is that they respect their man. We don't want someone that we can walk over or steamroll.
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#37178 - 12/17/10 02:00 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 Bustor,
I'm working through the posts on your thread.
Going back to
Originally Posted By: bustorama RESULT? "We are not in a relationship."
"I hear you saying do not want to be married to me right now."
You can validate without agreement. You are married. You know you're married. Hand back her wishes as wishes. Don't refute them. Her statement is blatantly not reality based, 'k? Don't encourage crazy, let it stand as it is.
Originally Posted By: bustorama W said: "I am afraid of you."
"I don't understand. I want to understand. Are you afraid of me finding out what you're doing? Are you afraid of my judgment of your choices?"
Don't ask if you really don't want to know. If you just want her to not be afraid, please don't ask.
Originally Posted By: bustorama "I do not want to work on this relationship."
"Am I hearing you correctly, that you don't want to work on your half of our marriage, you don't want me to hold you accountable?"
Her statements are conflicting and sound crazy. They totally negate reality. Sounding confused wouldn't be difficult...each time she says relationship, you say marriage in your rephrase, to confirm or clarify.
You're seeing her internal conflict spoken to you...as if she's fighting you. Don't take it that way.
Here's where you buy the whole crazy package:
Originally Posted By: bustorama Yes, her fear of getting back into a relationship with me might be very real. I get that. And it would be possible to be scared of getting back into a relationship with me, yet still enjoy the fruits of my reconciliation labors.
When you go into her thoughts, you go into crazy. Put it down and back away.
You are married. To each other. Her fears, as you said, are hers. You get that. Don't go any further. When you go further, you're going into guesses, trying to see through her eyes...like a reasonable DJ. There are no reasonable DJs.
All you're really doing is going into crazy with her.
Originally Posted By: bustorama I have gone with that for some time so she knows that I can bear fruit and am willing to bear fruit, but it is not good to do so indefinitely. Not healthy for me, not healthy for her, not good example for our kids. And, moreover, she has never consistently told me she wants a relationship.
You've gone with her crazy for some time and it violated your boundary of honesty. Put down the fruit.
She doesn't have to consistently tell you she wants a relationship with you. That's your job to tell yourself what you want, what's your goal. It's about you, not her.
She's messy and you're taking her mess as yours. It's not. Your goal is clarity. Don't go into her messy. I think that's what is driving your indecision...still based on her crazy thoughts and actions day by day, her lies to herself and you say "Don't lie to me. Crosses my boundary."
She wants to cut off, control and hide from others who she has allowed influence in her mind. The FB symbol...she doesn't cut you out of her real life, just on FB...she sorts folks on FB like it's real life.
Don't go into crazy no more, 'k?
You were honest about checking her FB...that's great. Finally. Because you want to stay connected to her and the girls, because you're married and you are living separately.
Understand that's the crazy part...that limbo.
She will reach to justify her lies by your past actions. Don't buy into crazy. You validated really well. Do not go further and excuse. Thing is, you're not asking her for what she requires of you to amend the past. You want her to lay out her plan for her to heal from your infidelity. Ask her for it.
Consider it, if she gives you that information. If she doesn't, do what you have refused to do...tell her what you require of her to continue the marriage.
That's the missing step...going reactive to reactive is messy, buys into all the crazy stuff. Stop, center and know what you require of her to not divorce.
That she move home, act from transparency, honesty, commit to 20 hours a week just one on one, no kids or distractions. No more "we" talk...only "I" statements. That you will call her on her dishonesty and want her to call you on yours, daily.
Make a deadline.
Just as other posters have said, this is really about you, what you're doing, wanting, requiring and not really telling her...your dishonesty in lying by omission.
You know not to react to her statements. You react, anyway. You build up to honesty instead of act from it first thing, right away. She's doing the same and that's why you don't enforce around yourself.
You lay out what you require of her and give a deadline. You get your L, know the steps to file and very best actions to get primary custody of your girls. That deadline you give her is about you...not to get her to do anything. It's how long you give yourself to realize you keep making this about her, not you.
Where you don't have power or control...no matter how consistently she says you are controlling, stalking, etc. You do hold her accountable for her choices and actions.
You aren't holding yourself accountable for yours.
You don't do any of this to get some peace...you will find peace as part of the outcome.
You do this as the acts of respect for her choices having their own consequences, equal to your own.
Only way to get yourself back to reality, out of the crazy, is to get yourself out of thinking her thoughts, reasoning her reasons, going into her beliefs and experience.
Not being sucked into crazy is your choice. Every thought you choose...that's your power. Where your thoughts go are your choice. Think of crazy as the drug she's taking...that's attacking the marriage. Don't take the same drug, 'k?
Stay clean and go for clear.
Know that you ARE a good experience, 24/7. You were her better drug for many years. You liked being her drug and she was yours. Until you didn't, and looked for another drug to take.
Clean and sober is respectful. Neither of you are drugs...you're both human beings. Treat her as the capable, whole individually separate human she really is...know she can work out her own stuff.
Your job is to work out your own. That's your plan. To ask for hers, to ask what it would take, and to give her yours.
Yes, we really are back to "I'll show you mine if you show me yours." It happens.
See, at no point do we really let our spouse go or stay, it's always in between. Our spouse can go at any time during our whole marriage, whether we let them or not. We sure can experience our marriage as if it wasn't a daily choice.
It was. It is. Injecting respect from your end, knowing this was reality all along stops the buying into their stuff. Respect sorts out your stuff from hers...stops the reactivity and enmeshment. It's the foundation for a great marriage and a great divorce...your choice.
You don't have to solve her crazy...nor understand it. Acknowledge by handing it back for clarity. So you are really clear on crazy...and are sure you're not participating in it.
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
MALovingAnyway@gmail.com
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#37225 - 12/17/10 09:23 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway] bustorama Member
It's interesting that back on DB, one of the first things that Puppy Dog said to me, was to be very wary for my W using my past boorish behavior to justify any of her own "wayward"actions. It's interesting that she did exactly this not only re: lying about FB but back in July when I confronted her about her cell txting.
I'm in a very strange place. Reeling from acceptance and crazy sleep-deprived, BUT feeling my power come back, as I see that I DO have great power. Complete control of MYSELF, IF I am honest with myself.
I need to get some sleep and emotional rest so that I am in clear mind, calm mood and strong resolve for my move.
Since I called out W on the FB lying, she hasn't called or texted much. I saw her briefly at D5's school Xmas party (where I noticed her watching me as I talked to another set of parents, I then introduced her to them as my W). She txt'ed me yesterday to remind me we needed to get a gift certificate for D5 and D2's teachers. She also called me at one point earlier in week to tell me about her progress with getting insurance evaluated for the car. That conversation was after the FB lying, and she was acting as if nothing had happened. There had been conversation by W on Sunday (pre lying incident) about going to eat dinner together Tuesday night and then take girls to see Santa. Tuesday came and went with no mention.
Earlier in the convo in which I called W out on her lying to me about FB, she had invited me to go to her apartment Xmas party later today with the girls. She talked about how our couple friends would be there, how their kids would be there, that I was on the lease anyway, and "that they gave a raffle ticket to each person that came for free rent." (ulterior motive???)
My IC joked to me, hey if you win the raffle that's community property. Not sure if the invite is still there. If it is, I'm torn on going. I am inclined to say:
W, I have been doing alot of thinking about this situation. I've decided not to come to the party and instead will decorate the house with the girls.
General thoughts?
Edited by bustorama (12/17/10 09:24 AM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
Registered: 11/16/10 Posts: 989 She's made it clear she wants no kind of relationship with you other than parenting yoru daughters.
Personally, I would not go.
If she brings it up again, tell her you will not be attending.
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#37228 - 12/17/10 09:28 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] TimeHeals Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 2324 Loc: Tennessee Get some rest, do something aside from focusing on this for a bit that is life-affirming (excercise, good nutritition, visiting family without talking about marriage issues, any old thing - enjoy life for a few hours here and there).
_________________________ Your Time Perspective Can Heal Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
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#37236 - 12/17/10 09:40 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: TimeHeals] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Thanks to both, ya, where I was headed.
Tis the season also, unfortunately, to see my L. Ho Ho Ho!
Edited by bustorama (12/17/10 09:42 AM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 Originally Posted By: bustorama 2) Are you dating/going to date? Well, considering you don't want to be my wife, I guess that's no longer any of your business.
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 Originally Posted By: catperson Originally Posted By: bustorama 2) Are you dating/going to date? Well, considering you don't want to be my wife, I guess that's no longer any of your business.
Busto.
This with a few substituted words is exactly what I told mine when she saw some strange female names on my phone the other day.
I'm not even dating.
It is not calculated move to generate jelaousy, it is a simple reality.
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
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#37446 - 12/17/10 05:54 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] rob x Member
Registered: 11/12/10 Posts: 1383 Originally Posted By: bustorama Thanks so much for all the input guys. Can you explain why cross out these?
I didn't do the editing but for your situation, less is more.
If you provide the $10 dollar speech, you will get the same response you've always rec'd because this probably isn't the first time you've written a letter or note to her that was longer than the book of Job.
A few words will probably have more of an impact than an essay.
If you've been one of those "letter writers" in the past, (I remember that was one of the old rules we used to talk about on DB, stop writing letters, it's just another form of pursuit) and she is used to getting the long winded verbose speech from you, think about her surprise when she reads 20 words instead of 2000.
Expecting you to be the old you and all of a sudden you're not, people take notice of stuff like that.
just my 0.02 cents
_________________________ “Man’s proper stature is not one of mediocrity, failure, frustration, or defeat, but one of achievement, strength, and nobility. In short, man can and ought to be a hero.”
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#37447 - 12/17/10 06:00 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: rob x] TimeHeals Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 2324 Loc: Tennessee Quote: A few words will probably have more of an impact than an essay.
Yep, and you skip right past that awkward "Dear God, does he expect me to read all of this? Can you say 'obsessed'?" moment smile _________________________ Your Time Perspective Can Heal Mend the broken, make strong the weak and vanquish the evil.
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#37616 - 12/18/10 11:40 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: TimeHeals] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 I gave the speech, dropped the rope.
Context was a buddy of mine told me that his W (who is friend of W) said MY W had told her that I had gone somewhere and met someone and had a PA (which is not true, was EA's). I called W and asked her why she was telling other people lies about our sitch. I said I didnt know what I could believe from her anymore. She started getting angry at me, said that wasn't what she had told her, things got jumbled like in a telephone game, that she couldnt deal with this, that she was at the movie by herself, hung up on me.
My buddy then called, said W was texting his W, lighting her phone up. His W had gone into restroom and was pissed, wtf was going on. Friend comes over to hang out. We shoot the shinola. He agree re: dropping the rope and cake eating. We discuss his sitch with W which is still improving. Apparently, my W had taught his W to delete him from facebook and talked about how controlling her H was, etc. etc. to contribute to their downward spiral which fortunately seems to have reversed.
Anyway I wake up this AM and call W. Give her the speech more or less as written. I added one line at the beginning in the apology where when I said I had changed to who I should have been I also said that I had been willing to work on my half of the marriage. Then I said, this sitch isn't working for me, etc.
W's only reactions were:
1) She was not going to be friends with those other friends anymore
2) She did not want me to be influenced by stuff they said and think bad about her
3) That she did not want me to think she was a liar
I more or less said, whoever you choose as your friends is your life, and I said I wasn't sure why she cared about 2 or 3 since we wouldn't be having much contact.
Edited by bustorama (12/19/10 01:44 AM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#37618 - 12/18/10 11:46 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] believer Member
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 Good job, Bustorama! I think you are the first man here to drop the rope.
So we're going to look toward you as an example for the rest of the guys.
Now batten down the hatches. The Mrs is going to do all she can to keep you involved in her drama.
OK, so W had asked what time we were gong to gymnastics class for D2. I told her between 9 and 9:15. W said ok, then appears at 9:55 (with 5 minutes left til end of class). Go outside and kids start getting loud and ornery. I say I am going to take the kids home and come back at 11 for D5's dance class (bout an hour, home is like 3 minutes away).
W starts flipping out, I can't tease her like that, show me the kids and then take them away. Going crazy saying you cant just change on me all of a sudden and take it all away. I say, today is my weekend to have them and I don't feel like sitting around here for an hour with all this drama. She says I'm not causing any drama. I said I don't mean you I mean the kids. Take kids to car.
W follows me to car and starts making huge scene. Saying about the kids needed to know everything, they would know, she would tell them everything. They might be too young now but she would tell them everything when they were older. I said, W, not in front of the kids. She keeps reacting. Climbs in car and starts kissing D2 and D5 like crazy. After like 4 minutes of this kissing, I say ok, W, I need to go now. More ranting and raving at me. I say again, W not in front of kids. More ranting. I say to W, Boundaries, please watch the boundaries, not in front of kids. She's still inside the car kissing them. Guy who was in parking lot drives away and stops, then looks at me with a look like Dude Man I'm sorry she's nuts, shaking his head. Finally I convince her to get out of car. She yells something at me about [Bleep!] with the wrong person. She was going to get me good. She was going to get her lawyer to nail me to the wall.
I get in car and drive away.
Phone starts ringing. I pick it up and she tells me she is going to file an emergency restraining order on Monday to prevent me from taking the kids to Christmas -- order that I can't take them out of state. I say why would you do that. She says because I am stopping her from seeing her baby's. I just all of a sudden changed the rules and their routine. I am being disruptive. I say this is my weekend. She says well if this is your weekend, then next weekend is my weekend (when I would otherwise be in Houston). I say I thought we had agreed that I was taking them to Christmas and for which days. Why is this only an issue now?
W says because I am being a dick and taking them away. She says ever since you started talking to that friend of yours, you have become a raging [Bleep!]. He is such a control freak. He is abusive to his wife. He controls her. He doesnt let her do anything. I say I'm sorry you see me as being a raging a-hole now. I say if that is true about how he treats her now, it would suck to live like that. I wouldn't ever want to be in a relationship like that. W again says about emergency restraining order.
W goes back to the friend thing. You have changed since you started talking to him. First accusing me of the text, then I got mad at you for that and blocked those people on facebook because I was pissed off at you and when you asked me about it I was scared and panicked and lied to you. Now you see me as deceptive and a liar, I'm really not. I'm not lying. (I stayed quiet). She said why would you want to just blow up our family like this. Take everything away. Take my babies away for Christmas. You never asked me about Christmas, about the dates, if I was ok with it. You are so controlling. I said something about how she had been invited to Christmas before when we were together.
THEN she said your family doesnt even want me to come. Your mom and sister never want to talk to me anymore. They probably hate me and don't want me to come. Well that's ok I don't talk to them anymore. Then she spewed some about how I had been so mean to her since Thanksgiving with all the accusations and calling her a liar, going off about how mean I was. I said, I hear alot of pain.
She said yeah I am in alot of pain, with how you've changed recently and all of a sudden today, wanting to change everything, take our family away. And your family not loving me.
Too tired to type...more later
Edited by bustorama (12/18/10 05:45 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 09/09/10 Posts: 880 It'll get better...eventually.
My ex-wife was like that when we were seperating. She'd fly into a screaming, hectic hissy fit. It was bad enough that it'd take all I had not to break out into laughter at how hysterical she was being.
_________________________ Some people are just wired for success. I had no choice when it came to being great. I just am great. --K. Powers
Somebody may beat me, but they are going to have to bleed to do it. --Prefontaine
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 I eventually talked her off the ledge about the restraining order, so I don't think she will file that. Would be very annoying if she did.
Re: her complaints about the the texting and the facebook hiding, I said, let's start from the premise that suppose my friend had been saying stuff to me indicating that you might be having an affair (or dating someone depending on your perspective). And start from the premise that you in fact are NOT having an affair (dating someone). I can see a chain of events happening where I confront you about texting, you get pissed off to hell at me for doing that and get so mad at me being in your business that you ban everyone associated with me off your facebook, then I creep on your facebook page and find you are lying to me about being on facebook which TO ME confirms the idea that you are hiding something, then I find you lying about something else, and meanwhile you get more and more pissed at me and lie to keep me as far out of your business as possible. Do you see how that scenario might happen. She says yeah. I can see totally that.
Then I say the other scenario is that you ARE having an affair and all this stuff also lines up with that scenario. And she says do you really think if I was having en EA that I would just be texting away right in front of you? And at my cousin's wedding? REALLY?!?!?! I say it seems strange, but people do pretty strange things when they are having A.
I say, in either scenario has anything really changed? Really? And she sort of hesitates. She says, well that makes sense to me, but we are separated, and I don't want you in my business, worrying about who I am texting or talking to or if I am going out with my GF. I'm not doing anything wrong. And I say, no, nothing has really changed.
W's anger seemed to have reduced after this conversation (I think it was part of what talked her down from talking about the restraining order further), so that's good in terms of the no restraining order.
W was taking D5 and D9 (her SD9) to Nutcracker this afternon. On way to house, she called and asked me if I wanted her to bring me cash from the ATM and if I wanted her to pick up a vest order for me at the shoe repair shop while she was at each. I said sure, that'd be great.
She's still out with them. I was bone tired and took a nap in afternoon after cleaning house up a bit. D2 took a nap with me in my bed -- first time I've ever done that. She was really funny. We just finished dinner. Gonna get her ready for bed and then elliptical.
Oh, W dropped them off while I was mid-msg. She came into front of house for first time in quite awhile. Said she liked the Christmas tree. Asked about a chandelier I was putting together on the ground (I had ordered it awhile ago, replacing this fugly chandelier that she used to hate). I asked about the Nutcracker and the kids' place they had gone to afterwards. Said I was glad she had done that with the girls. Smiling, PMA, eye contact, etc. She was smiling, eye contact back. Looks like no restraining order in the works.
I took my ring off in the morning.
Edited by bustorama (12/19/10 12:37 AM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX I'm confused. If you really mean that you are done with W, then why are you letting her run errands for you? If you are done, aren't you supposed to be focusing on your role as coparent? _________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX If you are cake eating, so is she. She still gets to act like your wife when SHE wants to, while keeping you at a distance the rest of the time. The most effective message would be to lean on her only as much as you are willing to have her lean on you - if you wouldn't be bringing her cash from the atm, then don't let her do that for you. _________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
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#37836 - 12/19/10 08:00 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: CajunRose] Pinhead Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 627 Busto,
I agree with CR. Don't let her do these little "favors" for you. She may do stuff like this to whittle down your resolve, and return the situation back to the previous status quo.
Also, I'm sure you've realized this is going to be a super stressful period for you, so be sure to eat, exercise, and get as much rest as possible. Easy for me to say, I know.
Remember to be aware of the role of being passive and avoiding conflict in your relationship. It's natural to not want arguments, drama, spew, etc, but stick to what you've decided is best for YOU and your three girls. _________________________ The best things in life aren't things.
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#37863 - 12/19/10 10:48 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Pinhead] believer Member
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 Yes, you are getting off track a little.
No use discussing whether or not there is an OM or who she is texting.
Really make up your mind that the current drama isn't working for YOU.
Start to get strong and in control and know that you can do it and deserve nothing but her best. Is she a wife that is being the woman you need? Unless she can meet your requirements and truly wants to stay in the marriage, let her go.
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#37865 - 12/19/10 10:59 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 That texting discussion happened in the AM in the same convo about the restraining order. She kept bringing up the lying, texting, facebooking I think under the impression that, for me, THAT was what was not working. In that discussion, I was trying to communicate to to her that regardless of whether there was or was not an OM, that 'nothing changes.' That this STILL was not working for me regardless of whether there was or was not an OM (based on her viewing herself as separated, me not in her business, etc., me: 'nothing has changed.'). Maybe not clear enough from how I wrote it (or said it?).
Edited by bustorama (12/19/10 11:00 AM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#37873 - 12/19/10 11:45 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] believer Member
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 You know, Bustorama, we all have been through telling our spouses what we need, trying to explain it different ways ad infinitum.
The only way to break that cycle is to show them by our actions, by letting them walk.
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#38121 - 12/20/10 09:19 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer] Soleil Member
Registered: 11/16/10 Posts: 989 Well I am glad that you gave her hte speech. Like everyone has mentioned, now you drop the rope totally. Her acting crazy that day in the car is typically normal behavior from a spouse that gets told by the other that things aren't working.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 I am so pooped. I slipped back yesterday, but, by the end, back forward today.
So yesterday, she called in the AM. She was asking something that I was non-responsive to. I kept saying, do what you think is right. ok, I gotta go, etc. She said this real happy, sort of plaintive THANKS! at the end of the convo.
Then she called in the PM asking for present ideas for D9/SD9 and for niece (on my side of the family), again real happy chipper sounding. I said get them whatever you want to get them. She said do you think SD9 would like blah, I said Use your own judgment. I'm sure you'll pick something fine. She tried similarly with my niece, "What about for niece, would she like this." Again, I said whatever you decide I'm sure will be fine. Then she went back to D9/SD9, ok what about between this model and that model? There are these things here on sale, blah blah. I said, W, I don't call my ex-W for advice on run-of-the mill presents and she doesn't call me for advice either. She said, OH I WISH YOU HADNT TALKED TO THAT GUY, EVER SINCE YOU STARTED TALKING TO YOUR FRIEND EVERYTHING HAS GONE DOWNHILL. I was quiet. She said something about how things were so much better before.
I said "You feel that things have gotten worse since Thanksgiving." And she tearfully said yes. I said, How are they worse today? She said because now you won't even talk to me, answer my questions. I said, W that is the reality of our situation. I don't talk to my ex-W hardly at all. That is how things will be with us. That's just the way it is. W again said something about being mad that the guy had turned me against her (the dynamic here was new, I felt her fighting for my attention and wanting SOME relationship between us).
Then I failed the test badly, I said, you felt things were better before Thanksgiving, that there was more trust between us? She said yeah it was alot better. That things have gotten bad with all these accusations.
I unfortunately? backtracked (FAIL!) and said if we could get back to that place, would you want to, would you want to pick back up from there and move forward, trying again. And she said yeah. So, I said, ok listen, I'm willing to try just a bit longer and work on things from my end, what about you, will you work on things? There was this big pause and I could feel the dynamic shift and she said, well I can't promise you anything like that we will reconcile. Sometimes I feel like I want a divorce, sometimes I don't, sometimes I cry and cry for hours, sometimes I am the happiest person in the world, I am all over the place. I am a [Bleep!] mess. (should I push for her to get back on meds??????). BTW, I guess this is part of why it is a mistake to let a WAS/WW lead?
And I said, I'm not asking for reconciliation, I'm asking if you will work on things. And she said, I can only promise to work on myself, don't push me, don't push me. And I backed off and said, well I will keep working on things at my end for a bit and decide based on how things go whether or not to keep going.
I took the kids to aquarium. On way back, I called W and asked if she wanted to join us for a bite and she said yeah. We go and eat at this pizza place. Have a good time. At dinner, W tells me that she is no longer friends with that friend from previous night and now also apparently one of her BFF left her in tears because she also banned BFF in her FB banfest. BFF (who I am also friendly with but not nearly as friendly as W), asked W did you ban me on FB. and W told her, Yeah, there has just been all this drama involving a friend of H's telling something to H that got him upset that I don't want to go into. And I've tried for this sitch not to affect the kids but now it's starting to because of this person so I decided to delete a ton of people off FB (I don't follow the logic????). And it's nothing personal against you, I even deleted some of my own family, etc. etc. Anyways, after eating, I go back to her apt where we put kids to bed, split up presents for Xmas (some for her place, some for house), I said how do you feel about coming with us to Xmas. No I need to do this for myself (go to hometown with folks). In other words, all of the same old miserable crap from before I said I was done. She did agree we should start working out together in the New Year.
So, this AM, I wake up and call to ask W question about present for her folks. W is all irritable (note that it also is her PMS time), complaining about D2, then says she has to go and hangs up on me. Calls back in 2 minutes and apologizes for hanging up and says she is irritable because I had listened to my friend and believed my friend about the accusations against her. I say I thought we already talked about this yesterday, what he described seemed convincing, maybe I could have asked her about it directly but she likely wouldn't have told me the truth if it was true.
Then W starts spewing about past hurts and how I kept hurting her now and she was sick of me hurting her and then saying sorry and hurting her and saying sorry. All this R talk ensued with W talking about all my various mistakes through our marriage. I listen. More talking. I ask is there anything you want me to say or do or just listen. JUST LISTEN. More venting. Going off over the years and years of ways she sees me as wronging her. (seemingly with no change since D-Day to me).
After awhile, I say, you know, this is unfair. I don't see you acknowledging your role in any issues from the past. She said I am aware of them, you said I was angry and yelled alot and didn't give you attention. I said yes, I think the biggest one for me is that you did not communicate to me. I felt like you expected me to read your mind when you were unhappy. Now when you tell me things, we can short circuit the issue, but in our past relationship you kept things inside for years and years building resentment and withdrawing your affection. The same way my listening to you was not fair, your not speaking up for yourself was not fair.
Then I said, and what about how you are hurting me now. And she said how am I hurting you? And I said by blocking me out of your life, by splitting our family, by haranguing me over and over about things I did 2 years ago, 4 years ago, 6 years ago, which I no longer do, for which I have apologized and made amends and remain remorseful, and which I can't do anything else about now.
And she said, if there's one thing I hate about men it's how they feel they can wrong you and then they feel entitled for you to come running back to them. I said W, I do not feel entitled to you and, at this point, this is no longer running back to me. I have worked my share of the marriage and offered a new relationship. There are plenty of stories of spouses who were angry of their spouse, scared of their spouse, didn't have romantic feelings for their spouse that decided to work on things in earnest with their spouse and came out in a better relationship than ever, happy in their relationship. She said something about how she was working on stuff, how she was in counseling. I said you can't really work on the relationship well while separated, you have to be together, committed to each other, patient with each other, committed to the marriage and working on things one day at a time, with outside help for the couple.
Then I stopped myself.
And I said wait a minute, I'm doing it again. I'm hearing again from you that you don't love me and don't want an R with me. She said I don't love you the way I used to. I said I don't know why I am trying to convince you otherwise. How silly and selfish of me. This does not work for me either. I don't want to be with someone that does not love me and want to be with me.
So, here we are again....
I don't see this going anywhere other than D. To me it seems she hasn't progressed at all in her thinking since Day 1. Can't forget or reprocess the negative past or see her role in it or, alternatively, look ahead to a different future separate from the past based on new relationship skills. Only possibility is if in my moving on her emotional mindset changes and she sees what she is losing in some way. If not, I wish her peace and happiness. She is a tortured soul now. =(
Edited by bustorama (12/20/10 07:09 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 Originally Posted By: bustorama She is a tortured soul now. =(
Drop the empathy. It will not help YOU.
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: pookie69 Originally Posted By: bustorama She is a tortured soul now. =(
Drop the empathy. It will not help YOU.
Understood. Tough because I do still love her, and she's my babies' mama. I hate seeing her as messed up as she is both for her and for them.
I do need to look out for myself and my girls FIRST, though.
Something that disturbed me in her ranting about restraining orders 2 days ago is that she said she was going to try to make it so I was just an every other weekend dad. I hope she isn't really thinking that. Seems like it would be pretty hard for her to attain given that the status quo for 7 months has been 50/50 and she has been struggling with that even. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: believer What happened to the "this isn't working for me?"
Heh, I know, I know, I did get back to it by the end.
I let myself be drawn back into the drama mthinking she was wanting to work on R and didn't want us to get D'd based on her reaction to the "reality." It was clearly a false or premature hope. When she didn't say she was all in to the relationship or wanted to try or similar, I should have said at that point, "then nothing has changed, this still doesn't work for me."
A problem for me is that I think she DOES view what she is doing (IC/personal recovery) as "trying" for the R also (even as we are separated, not in couples counseling, not spending 1-on-1 time together). She declined all of those requests. I guess if she wants the R, she will just have to try harder. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 Originally Posted By: bustorama Understood. Tough because I do still love her, and she's my babies' mama. I hate seeing her as messed up as she is both for her and for them.
I do need to look out for myself and my girls FIRST, though.
Something that disturbed me in her ranting about restraining orders 2 days ago is that she said she was going to try to make it so I was just an every other weekend dad. I hope she isn't really thinking that. Seems like it would be pretty hard for her to attain given that the status quo for 7 months has been 50/50 and she has been struggling with that even.
It's time my friend.
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Ya, I know, I did the this is "not working for me" again to end the convo. Now I just need to stick with it to conclusion (unless she sends a CLEAR message that she really wants to work on things).
Edited by bustorama (12/20/10 07:50 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 Precicely. _________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 When they finally get it, you don't have to read between the lines, discuss things, wonder what if. When they get it, they will show you by their actions and you will have no doubt.
You are just prolonging the agony and teaching your wife that this IS working for you.
And it is sad because in your wife's eyes you are un-F-able, and as long as you let her carry the football, you will remain that way.
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 Originally Posted By: believer When they finally get it, you don't have to read between the lines, discuss things, wonder what if. When they get it, they will show you by their actions and you will have no doubt.
You are just prolonging the agony and teaching your wife that this IS working for you.
And it is sad because in your wife's eyes you are un-F-able, and as long as you let her carry the football, you will remain that way.
I am glad I did not say that. grin
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Yeah, I can see quite the rollercoaster ride ahead based on her reactions just over the last two days.
First day was the ranting and raving.
Second day was the sympathy "things have gotten worse in our R and I don't like that."
FWIW, I don't think she will come around. She has said in the past that she has NEVER come back from emotional shutdown ("losing romantic feelings") in any relationship she has been in. I think part of that is because she has problems forgiving/letting go of hurts and stores resentment like a squirrel. She pinpoints the date of losing her romantic feelings as May 2009 when we went to Vancouver and she discovered I had still been playing the game on which I met the women I had EAs with. So it's been 1.5 years since then.
I think I will take the football to the endzone with her flinging beer bottles at me all the way to "the house." _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
That's the only chance you got to be f-able again.
Don't let the beer bottles hurt you on the way.
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 You wanna know something funny? Her guy cousin msg'ed me on FB a couple of nights ago to chew me out about the EAs (I guess he just found out why we were separated). So I took my lumps.
At the end of it I told him, yeah I've been pursuing her and it's been getting us nowhere.
And he goes, dawg, stop calling her, stop texting her, leave her the [Bleep!] alone. That's high school stuff. I'll put in a good word for you.
Edited by bustorama (12/20/10 08:10 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: believer I don't know if she will come around either. But she is quite attached to you, and you seem to be quite attractive.
Stop creeping my facebook. j/k wink
Originally Posted By: believer Try it for 2 weeks. You can do that, can't you?
Yeah, I have no problem with not initiating stuff to her. The tricky part for me is when she calls. If it's girl-related, I should be cheerful but in a hurry to get off the phone?
If it's not girl-related, then what?
It's hard for me not to meet emotional needs now because it's like second habit to me. I want to get off the phone (or avoid phone) before I start meeting EN's, right?
Edited by bustorama (12/20/10 08:15 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 Get rid of second nature and become F-able.
You told her it isn't working for you. She wants to keep running with the football.
Do your part with the girls. Then be very busy. Don't answer her calls, don't discuss presents, don't discuss relationship, NOTHING. Tell her you will get back to her and then don't do it.
If you aren't busy, then get your new life going.
If you were to do this for 2 weeks I would be very surprised if things don't turn around.
_________________________ In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer..Albert Camus
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#43964 - 01/03/11 02:41 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Ran 10 miles today along coast with my running group. Nice scene out there with tons of other runners (it's the peak distance long run weekend for most people running along this marathon/half marathon course in 3 weeks). Said hi to everyone going by, lol.
Went out to lunch with group afterwards for all you can eat extravaganza. Met some new folks.
Took down all my Xmas stuff and took tree to recycling
Some goals for this week: 1) Continue spinning/running training 2) One "mini" house project every other day 3) Finalize 2 papers/revisions to send out for work 4) Hang out with one of my friends after work on Wednesday 5) Call and catch up with two of my friends at some point in week 6) Hang out with D's Tues and Thurs. If I catch up with work maybe have neighbors over Thurs night to play with younger D's. This may have to wait. 7) Take minivan to shop for bumper repair in anticipation of selling it. 8) Nighttime reading of His Needs, Her Needs 9) Finalize selection of shutters and exterior painter 10) Make big "to-do" list for next 1-2 months _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#44013 - 01/03/11 09:28 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] catperson Member
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 GREAT plans! You're miles ahead of me (as I sit here looking at piles of crap to go through).
One thing that's helped me a lot if you have big projects you don't want to tackle cos they're so big...get a kitchen timer and bring it with you to the first room you're working on. Set it for 15 or 30 minutes. Work like mad until the buzzer; then on to the next room and do the same. Do this for a few days, and you can make huge dents in all those projects, without feeling like you're in a prison sentence.
lol, it's the only way I can get DD20 to work on stuff with me - her knowing it'll only last 15 minutes. Of course, once we get started, she doesn't want to stop; it's just that initial step.
Some goals for this week: 1) Continue spinning/running training Left knee sore since Sunday's long run. This PM with running group will be first run since Sunday. Will do an easy 5.
2) One "mini" house project every other day Pulled and reseated two toilets, replaced stem valves and handle on shower, did huge backlog of bills, filed bills, took some old D2 clothes to Goodwill). Tons more to do.
3) Finalize 2 papers/revisions to send out for work Finished 70-page paper. Sent out revision of another paper for review. Working on another revision now
4) Hang out with one of my friends after work on Wednesday Gonna have dinner and drinks with running buddies after our run tonight.
5) Call and catch up with two of my friends at some point in week Need to do this. Did call my folks and sis earlier in the week, though.
6) Hang out with D's Tues and Thurs. If I catch up with work maybe have neighbors over Thurs night to play with younger D's. This may have to wait. Ate out with Ds last night. Helped D5 with homework and read to them some. Neighbors will have to wait til next week
7) Take minivan to shop for bumper repair in anticipation of selling it. Still to do
8) Nighttime reading of His Needs, Her Needs Still to do
9) Finalize selection of shutters and exterior painter I've picked them. Just need to call them and put down the initial payments now (ugh)
10) Make big "to-do" list for next 1-2 months It's hideously long
So, one question for you guys. D2 is turning D3 next week. How are you supposed to deal with birthdays when you are "dark"? D2 has been saying that she wants everyone to go to Disneyland for her birthday.
Edited by bustorama (01/05/11 05:57 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 Light a candle. _________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 IF you are dark, then you do something for the birthday, and your wife does something else. It is exactly like it would be if you were to end up divorced.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Well, that's the thing. With my first wife, we DO do things jointly for our daughter on her birthday (we do joint birthday parties, we even went to Disneyland jointly once with our respective families, new spouses, etc. and stayed in nearby hotel rooms).
I do remember, however, that when we were actively splitting up (I split up from her), she had a birthday party for our daughter and didn't invite me. She even asked me to bring the ice chests to her for the party she was throwing for our daughter, heh. Maybe that was her being "dark" on me? It took us awhile to get "back" to having joint parties.
Edited by bustorama (01/05/11 07:08 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 That is fine. And if you get divorced from this wife, then you can have joint parties again.
But you need to be going dark to try to save your marriage.
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#45778 - 01/06/11 12:53 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Yeah, I need to figure something appropriately dim/dark for the bday balanced against the wishes of D2.
I had a good run tonight with my group. Went faster than my usual pace and still finished good. Went out for dinner and beers afterwards. I had some carne asada macaroni and cheese with jalapenos with 2 Stone IPA's. Bitchin. Met some new people, good times.
Random runner girl came up to me near end of night and started saying "bye Jimbo it was great talking to you (I had never seen her before and my name does not resemble Jimbo). Told her I was not Jimbo, but I could be if she liked. She started getting super touchy feely and affectionate. Asked her her name. Was the same as my W's. Oh. the games our Muses play. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#45798 - 01/06/11 01:42 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] catperson Member
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 busto, PLEASE don't make the mistake of thinking it is your job to make a 2 year old happy.
It is your job to make her feel safe by giving her a CONSISTENT set of rules that ALL kids have to follow. She may not be happy each and every day, but then...what are you teaching her by making her think that?
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#45863 - 01/06/11 10:06 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] Not2fun Member
Registered: 09/06/10 Posts: 1388 Loc: Gateway to the West Originally Posted By: bustorama Random runner girl came up to me near end of night and started saying "bye Jimbo it was great talking to you (I had never seen her before and my name does not resemble Jimbo). Told her I was not Jimbo, but I could be if she liked. She started getting super touchy feely and affectionate. Asked her her name. Was the same as my W's. Oh. the games our Muses play.
Quite frankly, you are doing your wife a favor by divorcing her. For the one having had the affairs in this marriage, you sure are not displaying having learned any lessons from them.....tis a shame too...
Not2fun _________________________ If you aren't being transparent, then you aren't being authentic. If you aren't being authentic, then you are being a hypocrite."
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#45905 - 01/06/11 11:38 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Not2fun] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: Not2fun Originally Posted By: bustorama Random runner girl came up to me near end of night and started saying "bye Jimbo it was great talking to you (I had never seen her before and my name does not resemble Jimbo). Told her I was not Jimbo, but I could be if she liked. She started getting super touchy feely and affectionate. Asked her her name. Was the same as my W's. Oh. the games our Muses play.
Quite frankly, you are doing your wife a favor by divorcing her. For the one having had the affairs in this marriage, you sure are not displaying having learned any lessons from them.....tis a shame too...
I appreciate your honesty, Not2Fun, but I do not agree with you on this point. My EA's were in August-September of 2008. I have been trying in many different ways to repair things with my W since then. I have not been emotionally or physically intimate with ANY woman since October of 2008 (my W), yes, OVER 2 years. I have been propositioned/pursued MANY times in the interim and have never reciprocated. It may not be clear to you from how things come across on-line, but I am a joker, and I was not reciprocating this advance either. I find humor in almost everything.
Regarding the serious matter of affairs and boundary crossing, I have developed self-control and will continue to exercise it, as I did last night. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
Registered: 09/06/10 Posts: 1388 Loc: Gateway to the West Originally Posted By: bustorama Originally Posted By: Not2fun Originally Posted By: bustorama Random runner girl came up to me near end of night and started saying "bye Jimbo it was great talking to you (I had never seen her before and my name does not resemble Jimbo). Told her I was not Jimbo, but I could be if she liked. She started getting super touchy feely and affectionate. Asked her her name. Was the same as my W's. Oh. the games our Muses play.
Quite frankly, you are doing your wife a favor by divorcing her. For the one having had the affairs in this marriage, you sure are not displaying having learned any lessons from them.....tis a shame too...
I appreciate your honesty, Not2Fun, but I do not agree with you on this point. My EA's were in August-September of 2008. I have been trying in many different ways to repair things with my W since then. I have not been emotionally or physically intimate with ANY woman since October of 2008 (my W), yes, OVER 2 years. I have been propositioned/pursued MANY times in the interim and have never reciprocated. It may not be clear to you from how things come across on-line, but I am a joker, and I was not reciprocating this advance either. I find humor in almost everything.
Regarding the serious matter of affairs and boundary crossing, I have developed self-control and will continue to exercise it, as I did last night.
There is nothing humorous about any married person telling someone of the opposite sex "I'm not Jimbo, but I could be if you like....". It's even less humorous coming from the spouse who had the affairs.
Think of it this way....just how do you think your wife would re-act if she had read this?
Or even still, if this was one of your daughters going through this and you found your SIL behaving like this, what would you do?
"Watch your thoughts, for they become words. Watch your words, for they become actions. Watch your actions, for they become habits. Watch your habits, for they become character. Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny."
Think on it....
Not2fun
_________________________ If you aren't being transparent, then you aren't being authentic. If you aren't being authentic, then you are being a hypocrite."
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: Not2fun Originally Posted By: bustorama Originally Posted By: Not2fun Originally Posted By: bustorama Random runner girl came up to me near end of night and started saying "bye Jimbo it was great talking to you (I had never seen her before and my name does not resemble Jimbo). Told her I was not Jimbo, but I could be if she liked. She started getting super touchy feely and affectionate. Asked her her name. Was the same as my W's. Oh. the games our Muses play.
Quite frankly, you are doing your wife a favor by divorcing her. For the one having had the affairs in this marriage, you sure are not displaying having learned any lessons from them.....tis a shame too...
I appreciate your honesty, Not2Fun, but I do not agree with you on this point. My EA's were in August-September of 2008. I have been trying in many different ways to repair things with my W since then. I have not been emotionally or physically intimate with ANY woman since October of 2008 (my W), yes, OVER 2 years. I have been propositioned/pursued MANY times in the interim and have never reciprocated. It may not be clear to you from how things come across on-line, but I am a joker, and I was not reciprocating this advance either. I find humor in almost everything.
Regarding the serious matter of affairs and boundary crossing, I have developed self-control and will continue to exercise it, as I did last night.
There is nothing humorous about any married person telling someone of the opposite sex "I'm not Jimbo, but I could be if you like....". It's even less humorous coming from the spouse who had the affairs.
Think of it this way....just how do you think your wife would re-act if she had read this?
Or even still, if this was one of your daughters going through this and you found your SIL behaving like this, what would you do?
"Watch your thoughts, for they become words. Watch your words, for they become actions. Watch your actions, for they become habits. Watch your habits, for they become character. Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny."
Think on it....
Not2fun
Again, thanks for your message and honesty.
I see two separate issues here -- one is my thoughts/intentions and the second is how my words (actions) might be "heard."
Regarding my intentions, I know what I meant and did not mean in my words and in the way I said them (very jokingly). In no way was I serious about "being Jimbo" or doing anything with this woman. I think she knew perfectly well that I wasn't "Jimbo." As far as I know, there is no one in our running group named "Jimbo." I was amused with what I saw as the situation (her approaching me with a Jimbo ruse) and I was trying to be playful about the "mistaken identity" in a way that would make this "meeting" not awkward for either of us. And then the painful irony that this person who was interested in me had the same name as my W, who is not....
If you knew more about the opportunities I've steered far clear of over the last year, I think you would understand that I do not think in terms of having As. To me, these approaches are like cruel, ironic jokes. If you also knew the circumstances of my EAs -- I initially compartmentalized/rationalized my EAs as not being real because they were virtual (with people in a game with character names) -- then you also might know that my crossing the boundary of an "in the flesh" A is something that didn't happen even at my worst and certainly would not happen now. I am quite comfortable with my thoughts and intentions.
The harder issue, I realize from your second message, is how my playfulness might be "heard" by someone not in my head. You heard something different than what I was thinking. In hindsight, maybe she did as well and that's why she started getting touchy/affectionate. Maybe my W would as well if she overheard (I'd like to think not because she knows me well, but I can see now given how I hurt her that she might hear something different now, whereas she wouldn't have before).
So, while I can't control how others "hear" me, I CAN act/speak in a way that others are less likely to "mishear" me. Lesson taken.
In that context, something I would like you to consider -- there are people (from DB) on this forum who are more familiar with me, my personality, and my history than I believe you may be. From private messages they sent me, they did not "hear" what you heard in my words and actions.
The solution for me is to disambiguate my words and actions in a way that aligns transparently with my thoughts and intentions. Thanks for speaking up again. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#46642 - 01/07/11 08:51 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] catperson Member
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 Maybe those more familiar with you wouldn't see that. But this woman did NOT know you. So she likely did take it the way Not - and I - did.
One thing I think that men are often completely oblivious to is what it feels like to be a woman, lol. As in, what it's like to be around a guy and try to figure out his 'clues.'
Another thing I think men often fail to take into account is the VERY sensitive nature of how we view sexuality, how we feel men perceive us and how we feel they think of us (i.e., in terms of just being an object for their pleasure, etc.).
We're very aware that your libido drives you much more than it does us. Erego we're also very aware that we are likely to be taken advantage of, and that some men WILL forego expected moral standards to GET that libido taken care of.
Note I'm NOT saying that's what YOU did. I'm saying that women often go around with a little bit of radar up for such actions and words that men aren't aware of.
Not saying this to drag you down or anything. Just thought it might be a worthy moment to carry on the 'learning moment,' lol.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Yeah, the same way that men can be oblivious to women's clues and catspeak, hehe.
Your additional point of feeling like a (potential) sex object/target and all that may entail regarding your perception of how others interact with you or others is a big one. I know it has operated in my sitch too insofar as my W sometimes would interpret my meeting her emotional needs during separation as being me pursuing her sexually, instead of simply as trying to love her or connect with her.
When she said something like that to me once, I said something like, look I haven't had sex in over 2 years, if this was just about sex for me, don't you think I'd be long gone by now? I probably should have validated her feelings about it more, but I was thinking, "Really? I haven't had sex for 2 years and am still working at things at my end, and you still see me as just some sex hound?"
I can see, ESPECIALLY if you have been hurt in the context of a guy gratifying his libido -- like in my affair, how that radar would be on full alert and for quite some time. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 09/06/10 Posts: 1388 Loc: Gateway to the West Originally Posted By: bustorama
If you knew more about the opportunities I've steered far clear of over the last year, I think you would understand that I do not think in terms of having As. To me, these approaches are like cruel, ironic jokes.
My question to you is, why have you put yourself in a position to even have these opportunities?
Not2fun _________________________ If you aren't being transparent, then you aren't being authentic. If you aren't being authentic, then you are being a hypocrite."
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 5195 BR, YOU had the affairs and yet you are still out there flirting or trying to hit on other women. How about doing the women and yourself a favor and waiting until your situation is resolved before putting yourself in these positions. _________________________ It's not who you are underneath, it is what you do each and everyday that defines you.
Don't go shaking the HO tree and expect an angel to fall out.
You guys take one, one little encounter and paint it as if Busto is out there hitting on every skirt that comes by. Geez. Maybe you guys are perfect, Puritans, but in the real world, women do flirt with men. Happens all the time, even to perfectly happy married men. And flirting back, with NO GOAL of humping skirts, isn't a crime against humanity.
N2Fun, he put himself in this "position" by being in a running club, something that sure seems to fit the GAL idea. Exercise, socializing, etc.
He explained himself, pretty clearly, yet you still felt the need to rag on him. Get over it. _________________________ The best things in life aren't things.
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#48207 - 01/10/11 12:45 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Pinhead] catperson Member
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 I agree.
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#48248 - 01/10/11 07:52 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: catperson] Not2fun Member
Registered: 09/06/10 Posts: 1388 Loc: Gateway to the West This was not the first incident, only the first one I commented on.
It was only a question, to a man, who I thought had wanted to save his marriage...seems I misunderstood...
Good Luck Buster....
Not2fun _________________________ If you aren't being transparent, then you aren't being authentic. If you aren't being authentic, then you are being a hypocrite."
But, if I was out trying to hit on women, please know that I would not at present have not kissed ANY woman in more than 2 years. I have been flirted with or hit on in the most random places since we've been separated -- dentist's office, Costco, family pizzeria, gym, running club, etc. I'm not running around at meat markets, cougar clubs, etc (unlike my W, incidentally). I smile and am open and playful when I talk to people (of both sexes). It's who I am. I will hire you a mariachi band too if it makes you smile. I won't, however, let myself get into a relationship with or connected to someone of the opposite sex, not while my sitch remains unresolved.
I knocked out 13 mile run on Saturday. Half mara in less than 2 weeks. Felt good to cover (almost) the distance. Left knee is a little achey breaky. Need to update my "to do" thing.
Re: my marriage, before I withdrew into NC, Not2Fun, I tried lots of different things over many months to reconnect with my wife (all the way back to August 2009 if you consider the pre-bomb and certainly since April 2010), to show her how much I love and appreciate her, to make amends for ways that I hurt her, to be present for her and responsive to her needs, as she would let me. Her main spoken hurts to me don't even seem to be about the EAs, but rather about the neglect and abandonment that happened around the time of the EAs. It seems I may have neglected her and hurt her too much (or at least that she has to work through on her own whether it was too much for her), because she has not and did not respond to my Plan A'ing. Rather, she has increasingly entered a mindset of entitlement and resentment of 'I have him wrapped around my finger," of banning me and everyone remotely associated with me from her Facebook, of getting her friends to ban me from THEIR facebook, of lying to me about things involving her Facebook, of not sharing her day-to-day or emotional world with me.
I still have enormous love for her and would gladly continue working at being the husband she always deserved if she decided she wanted to try to be the wife that I also deserve again. She has made it clear through her actions and words, however, that that is not what she wants right now.
Edited by bustorama (01/10/11 01:22 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#50249 - 01/13/11 12:49 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Hey folks,
Things going well, and I'm feeling good. Some productive days at work, had a good teleconference today and meeting today. Some big deadlines ahead at beginning of Feb. 5 I need to keep up with.
Some success on the home organizing front.
Spun yesterday and did a quick 5 miler (for me) with my running group tonight. Went out for pizza and a couple of beers afterwards. Met some more new people. I really like the social aspect of my running group, everyone is so friendly. Met another guy running the same half as me next week and we have similar target pace, so we said we'd try to hook up at start line to run together for at least first half.
Few more calls and hangups with no msg from W. There have been several of these. Ended up celebrating D3's bday with a cake and movie with her sisters. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#50417 - 01/13/11 11:25 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] Pinhead Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 627 You need to update your sig... wink _________________________ The best things in life aren't things.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Been busy with work, training and a bit D's.
Spun at gym Thurs, ran Fri night with my group and went out for dinner and desert with group at some new restaurant I hadn't been to before. Fri AM had last "long" run in prep for half mara with group in park. Stupendously pretty morning. We lounged on park grass in shorts and sun and celebrated end of long run training with the beer that never fills. One of the girls brought little bundt cupcakes for everyone. Pretty epic morning. After that went home and cleaned up and went to viewing party for my alma mater's basketball team. Met some new people there including one guy from my graduation year.
Cupcakes for girls and swim lessons today. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 She calls and hangs up about once per day (no answer, no message). I haven't initiated any contact to her. That has not been hard for me because I didn't initiate any contact to her earlier in our sitch from about June until October. The only change from that earlier time is my now not answering her calls. It's a little odd to me that she is not leaving messages because she used to, but, whatever.
I am picking girls up today (is my day today and tomorrow cause of holiday tomorrow), so I will see her in the context of that. I don't have an intermediary, but I should be able to get in and out of that quickly just based on arriving shortly before swim lesson starts.
Otherwise, NC -- all of our normal kid "exchanges" happen at school so we don't need to see each other at those and I have stopped going to the weekend activities when she has the girls. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 W asked "if I was mad at her?" when I picked up D's. I said, nope, just real busy, rounded up girls and left for swim lessons. Lessons went pretty well. I'm icing my right knee, it's a lil sore from yesterday, but nothing to worry about I don't think. D3 is napping. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 I don't agree with her behavior, but I would not say that I am "angry" at her. I am disappointed and hurt by her choices. I have told her previously that I am disappointed in her choices.
However, from what I have read about the experience of infidelity from the side of the betrayed spouse and how it can be like post-traumatic stress for many, it's difficult for me to be "angry" at her for her escapism / self-protection, especially since I am not walking in her shoes. Am I over-empathizing?
In terms of "consequences," it seems my absence from her life is about as significant a consequence as there is when it comes to me, no? _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#52607 - 01/17/11 12:02 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] catperson Member
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 Originally Posted By: bustorama I don't agree with her behavior, but I would not say that I am "angry" at her. I am disappointed and hurt by her choices. I have told her previously that I am disappointed in her choices. Then why did you not tell her so THIS time? By you NOT telling her the truth you are CONDONING what she does to you. Do you think that's logical?
Quote: However, from what I have read about the experience of infidelity from the side of the betrayed spouse and how it can be like post-traumatic stress for many, it's difficult for me to be "angry" at her for her escapism / self-protection, especially since I am not walking in her shoes. Am I over-empathizing? Most definitely, you are. Why do you feel it's your job to make sure SHE is not upset?
Quote: In terms of "consequences," it seems my absence from her life is about as significant a consequence as there is when it comes to me, no? Um...don't flatter yourself. Seriously! Really, you think that not having you around upsets her?
Consequences for a cheater include (1)exposure so that she knows that her important people now think poorly of her; (2) having her life NOT be a cakewalk when SHE chooses to leave the life she had with you; (3) no longer getting YOU around to care about her, take care of her, make life easy for her, and bite your tongue to make sure she thinks you don't hate her.
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#52669 - 01/17/11 08:34 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: catperson] Medc Member
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 5195 How is HER behavior wrong???
She left a man that cheated on her and is living her life. I applaud her resolve. _________________________ It's not who you are underneath, it is what you do each and everyday that defines you.
Don't go shaking the HO tree and expect an angel to fall out.
medcmbers@zoominternet.net
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#52746 - 01/17/11 11:00 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Medc] catperson Member
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 Ooops! Sorry, I was confusing you with someone else. Just ignore me...
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#52849 - 01/17/11 01:02 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: catperson] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 Bustor...
For clarity: You answered her question with "Nope, just busy"?
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
For clarity: You answered her question with "Nope, just busy"?
Ah, you and your truth darts. Dishonesty by omission.
While it's true that I am not angry, maybe a more honest answer would have been something along the lines of, "No, I'm not angry. I am, however, removing myself from this situation because the choices you are making concerning our marriage don't work for me and are hurting me."
_________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Yes, contact with her, in her most recent mindset, hurts in the sense that I get my hopes up that she might want to work on things, share her emotional world with me, etc. (premature/false hope?) and then I find out that she is lying to me about her day-to-day activities, pushing not only me, but also my family and also my friends, away, accusing my family of 'catching her in their web' and so forth.
And, yet, she was still calling on me to help her in efforts to get her car repaired, give her rides somewhere, etc. etc. Pulling me to get her needs met, yet at the same time not sharing herself with me emotionally and lying to me about her feelings or actions. Those choices she made during our contacts hurt me.
Edited by bustorama (01/20/11 05:17 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#55117 - 01/20/11 05:52 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 Since contact hurts (essentially), most likely you will feel anger, too...
anger follows on the heels of fear or pain.
I'd just like to see you okay with your own emotions...when you're not, you are more likely to act out your feelings than have them.
I'm looking out for you. Mine wasn't a truth dart, really...my own code dictates I clarify or confirm. No assuming...so I guessed, instead.
You may be okay with anger, frustration, disappointment, pain and fear. You might be okay with them most of the time, but not all of the time. I don't know, so I ask...because it is extremely painful in my experience to experience that emotional shutout from your spouse.
She may experience your anger as disapproval. I did, with my DH. Guess what? You disapprove, so that's honest. Just not acting it out...stating, not demonstrating.
Reminding you of that boundary.
Anger is not a boundary...can't enforce it...we sure try by acting out or in. Anger is healthy, for when someone is crossing your boundaries...even you...a signal. Like sadness, which is healing and doesn't feel healing...anger has a message to deliver.
She can't get your hopes up, btw...you do that. You can choose to go dark, because contact hurts, she knows this isn't working for you anymore, and you require honesty from her.
Also, maybe since she doesn't act from respect, honesty, consideration...her question was impertinent? She's disconnected from you emotionally, so she doesn't get to ask "Are you angry?"?
If you promised yourself to go dim, not connect with her, then whether she asks anything or not, you, dear Bustor, are required to NOT answer.
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Yes, thanks for that. I'd say right now I'm ok at coping with my emotions about 80-90% of the time (even when I'm not "ok," it's not that I am acting them out, most of the time I just experience them as unpleasant and have trouble distracting, reframing, or just letting them happen).
I ran my half mara since last post. It went well, and I met my 3 main goals (2 race goals, 1 charity fund raising goal), not quite my pie in the sky racing goal, but that's still out there for the next one, right? =) Probably aiming for a late spring one.
Lots of fun social stuff happening around the race, get togethers for carbo loading, after race lunch/drinks/debriefing, etc. Probably gonna go for my first run since race today with my group.
Work is going well, but crazy busy. Some nasty deadlines approaching for Feb. 3. House projects a bit on hold until I can clear these.... _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Went to pet expo fair thing with my girls yesterday. We had a blast looking at all the potential adoptees, petting, holding, etc. They are dog crazy. I want to wait until summer to get one when it will be easier to housetrain it (cause of work), but they are so excited to even be thinking of getting one.
As consolation "prize" we stopped and got a couple of betta fish on way home from swim lessons today. They were so excited to set them up too. Really hilarious, jumping up and down and squealing for betta fish.
I'm still running post half mara. I ran a nice easy 8 along the coast with a couple of friends from my running group. Gorgeous day out, sun, other joggers, bikers, etc. Had Mexican food and margaritas afterwards.
I have one of my old college roommates visiting in town this week. Going to go pick and his wife up in a bit and go out for dinner and drinks. He knows about my being separated but none of the details, so that will probably be subject of much dinner discussion. Blech. It's strange, at the beginning of my sitch, I was like a 1-track record practically, wanting (needing???) to talk to everyone about it. Now, I hardly feel like talking to anyone about it. Do others feel same way? _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 Originally Posted By: bustorama I have one of my old college roommates visiting in town this week. Going to go pick and his wife up in a bit and go out for dinner and drinks. He knows about my being separated but none of the details, so that will probably be subject of much dinner discussion. Blech. It's strange, at the beginning of my sitch, I was like a 1-track record practically, wanting (needing???) to talk to everyone about it. Now, I hardly feel like talking to anyone about it. Do others feel same way?
Will it help you to talk to him about it?
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 fwiw, when you do get a dog, I have found the most amazing dog trainer you could imagine. Totally better than anything else I've come across.
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#62556 - 02/01/11 09:42 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: catperson] Mindfull Member
Registered: 01/27/11 Posts: 1127 Loc: Midwest Hey Busto! Just popping in to say hi here. Love the marathons! _________________________ D'd (6/27/2011)
D20, S15 & S12
And... He's Fergalicious...
"The average woman would rather have beauty than brains, because the average man can see better than he can think."
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#62567 - 02/01/11 10:07 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Mindfull] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Re: helping me to talk to him about it, I dunno. The thing is, since I am dim, talking about it sort of brings everything back to the forefront -- different unpleasant feelings -- sadness, frustration, guilt, helplessness, bit of anger. It also focuses me towards the past and mistakes I made pre- and post-bomb, things I may have failed to do in pursuing reconciliation, decisions she made that I don't agree with. A very different place than when I am focusing on me and the girls and the future.
Dinner was a good time, nonetheless, we ate at a place I like near the coast, and they seemed to like it. Lots of talking about the past, the present and the future. Will see him again at my college reunion out east in a few months.
Catperson, is the dog trainer like a video/book or an in the flesh person? I forget if you live near me. Or is it a device to help with training. My last dog was a Sheltie. He lived to about 14 years? and I definitely could have used a dog trainer to help us with his barking. Constantly herding and defending with his barking. Good dog, but can't you express it another way!
Hi Mindfull!! Yes, thanks! I had a nice run last night too with my group. They keep me sane and allow me to eat and drink whatever I want. Doesn't suck! wink
_________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#62573 - 02/01/11 10:20 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] catperson Member
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 I'm in Houston, but he travels all over the place. He is amazing! He doesn't train with food; he trains with respect. Am I allowed to make a plug here? If not, the mods can edit it out. He is Stovall's Obedience. I researched ALL the trainers here - a ton, in a city this big - and he has the best credentials. Learned his trade with big names and organizations; he works with a lot of police dog organizations. He brings his dogs along sometimes (he breeds Rottweilers and Pugs, I think), and he tells them to lie down while he works with us, and his dogs just lie there, til he 'releases' them. Even if one of our cats runs by. It's really amazing. Basically, he trains them using what makes sense to them - respect, pecking order, consequences. It's 6 weeks of training, and he says it's an intense 6 weeks (no playing, no nothing unless he authorizes it), but he says isn't 6 weeks of your dog's and your time worth it, to have a dog that can spend the next 15 years of his life as a happy member of your family who doesn't always get yelled at?
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#65351 - 02/04/11 05:16 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: catperson] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 Bustor, how did your night with old college roommate and his wife go?
Sounds like your awareness for beauty, joy and fun is still way up there. Kudos on that.
Is your plan to stay dim? Does that mean you have strictly limited contact with W or did you go darker than that?
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
Cat -- I didn't realize you were there. I have lots of family there and am very familiar with it. I definitely want to get formal training for my next dog (and for me -- I've heard the training is as much about training us to interact with them). I also want to be sure and get 2 dogs at the same time when I get my next dog. I felt bad my Sheltie didn't have a buddy (or girl) to play with. Maybe that would have helped soothe some of his excess barking, hehe.
LA -- We had a great night! It was so good to see both of them, and they were both very warm, supportive and fun. In terms of my sitch, my roommate said he was proud of me for owning my mistakes and working on myself and to keep controlling what I could control and not try to control or feel responsible for what I couldn't. He's a smart guy. =) That was only a small part of what we talked about though. He and his wife are both doing really well and their 2 girls are adorable. We talked about them coming out maybe over the summer for a family vacation and us all hanging out (their girls are around the same age as my oldest D).
The dinner itself and wine were killer, too. Also had a tasty mojito. I love that place and want to go back. I'll be seeing my roommate again in April along with a ton of my other friends at my college reunion.
I got through my crazy work deadlines last week in one piece. Still doing my running and went spinning for first time in a week or so this AM. I love exercise so much, and it does so much for me. It's a shame I stopped doing it during my dark years and allowed myself to slip deeper and deeper.
Last weekend, I took girls and one of neighbor girl friends to zoo. They had a blast feeding the lorikeets and giant animals in the petting zoo. We all went out to dinner for pizza afterwards with the dad of my D's friend and his son. The dad's W stopped by in the AM dropping off my oldest after sleepover. She came in for an hour while girls played and did karaoke, and we caught up some -- I hadn't talked to her since December. She is one of W's friends, but she says W has sort of dropped off the face of the earth to her. She brought the subject of W up and I steered subject away from that, but perhaps I should have been explicit and said, you know I'm trying not to think about that right now, I'd rather talk about XXX.
D's also had swim lessons and dance lessons, where I caught up with other neighbors. I keep meaning to have them over for BBQ, and keep not having time. Some times it's tough juggling the 3 D's and their school stuff with work with GAL.
This weekend W has girls. Haven't made plans yet to do anything. I sort of need a home project/chores catchup weekend from all the grant madness. I need to call the painter I picked and get them out to paint the house. It will look killer.
Oh, I just realized I didn't answer LA's question. Planning to continue with the current dimness. There are some points of strict NC I'm not sure how to manage with 3 kids. In our standard schedule, any "exchanges" happen in the context of school or day care, so there is no need to see one another. But, there are occasional exceptions I'm not sure how to deal with. Like today D3 had a 3-year checkup at the doctor's office, and I wanted to go. I've always gone to them since she was an infant. So I went and W was there.
She had an unhappy look on her face, tense body language and vented that she was overwhelmed at work and with deadlines, mistreated at work, sleepless, needing to take tranquilizers, stressed by girls' behavior when she had them and asking when the next therapy appointment for D5 was (we started her in IC therapy over the summer and she goes more or less weekly -- I take her to most of them). Why does this general unhappiness seem to be a pattern (rule?) in sitches on here??? Is it the human response to a broken relationship? Or does it come first and help drive escape from the relationship?
Edited by bustorama (02/10/11 06:49 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX Originally Posted By: bustorama Why does this general unhappiness seem to be a pattern (rule?) in sitches on here??? Is it the human response to a broken relationship? Or does it come first and help drive escape from the relationship?
In my completely uninformed opinion/mindreading, I think a lot of our spouses are very unhappy before they leave. They think leaving will make things better, and when they find out that firing us doesn't magically fix everything, the unhappiness shows itself more, especially around us, "the cause of all the issues". (In my STBXH's case, at least, this seems to be true.)
And part of it is also that leaving any relationship hurts, and if you are the leaver, you also have a tad bit of guilt, especially if there are kids. _________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
Registered: 12/28/10 Posts: 955 Originally Posted By: bustorama Why does this general unhappiness seem to be a pattern (rule?) in sitches on here??? Is it the human response to a broken relationship? Or does it come first and help drive escape from the relationship?
Here is my take on it, but it could be wrong, I'm sure someone will let is know though!
When the LBS gets the bomb, we are kind of forced into this kind of unhappy, stressed state. We immediately start thinking of the failure of our marriage, the stress that comes with the splitting of lives. That's where OUR heads are at. We get plunged into that almost immediately.
The WS however, seems to feel relief first. Freedom from the unhappiness, the prospects of a better life and future. They are the optimists in this situation.
As the LBS gets through this, we do the things we need to do to make our new lives better. We GAL, focus on is and our families, and do the healing. The WS on the otherhand thinks the split is the key. They don't usually do as much work on them as we do. They don't examine the relationship, the future, themselves. Then, when life ISN'T much better just because they left their spouse, reality kind of hits. The main difference at this point, is wether or not they realize that it wasn't our faults completely.
For instance, my stbx just told me that 'he's always cranky and tired, school [censored] and he is having issues with breathing, like theres a weight on his chest sometimes'. Me? I think it's stress and anxiety. He thinks it's medical. He's not to the point where he realizes that leaving me isn't going to make him necessarily happier. He's not past blaming me. He thinks it's the stress of the divorce and school. And it probably is. But not using someone around to help him deal with this stress anymore is causing him to have physical symptoms. Is it possible it's medical? Sure But his life is NOT roses alone.
But I don't think he will ever admit that part. There will always be another excuse for his unhappy. Me on the other hand? I got DUMPED. I am downgrading my home. My bills are going to jump, while my income went down. I'm a single mom every day of the week, and he's a dad 3 days every two weeks. But you know what? I'm HAPPY. By all accounts, I should be miserable while he is happy in lala land. But that's not what's happening.
And it kind of makes me giggle inside. Working on me and my life did so much. So so much. And he's still stuck being miserable.
Edited by Thirty78 (02/10/11 07:38 PM) _________________________ Me: 31 Kids: 10, 8, 3 Bomb: 08/10 The rest doesn't matter.
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX I nodded along with that whole post, Thirty, and laughed out loud at the end. I think you've pegged it - and the end is exactly how I feel. _________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 So, very strange yesterday.
W called and left a VM message crying asking could I call her that she wanted to talk about "us."
So I called her up and asked how she was doing, what was up.
She said she had been crying tons over the last month, like she was on a crazy rollercoaster between neutral and low. That she had permanent red marks under her eyes that she was crying so much.
I said that sounded terrible, what was she crying about, what things were triggering the low?
She listed off several things unrelated to "us" (work stresses, money stresses, etc.) and then said but a big one is "us", that she keeps thinking about getting back together, but she feels stuck, that there is a "block" on her love that she can't remove or break through. That she really wished she could move it, but she can't.
So at that point, I'm wondering why she called????
Instead I picked up on her saying something about being scared because of what had happened before, and I said I understand that you feel scared I get that. She said something about never wanting to go back to the way she felt and the way things were. I said I never want you to feel that way again ever, and I don't ever want to go back to the way things were. Was there anything she wanted me to do or something I could do to help?
She said no, then she went back to the feeling a "block" and went back to her old script about once her feelings switch off they never switch back on.
So at that point, I was really thinking this is going nowhere, why did she call. So, I said something like, I'm truly sorry you feel the way you feel and that you feel stuck. I feel so much empathy for your hurt and pain. I wish I could do something for you to remove that block, but I can't. I've done everything I can at my end. It doesn't sound to me like anything has really changed about how you feel, so maybe it's best if you talk to someone else about your feelings. She asked me if I was mad at her, and I said those are your feelings, and I am not mad at you for having them.
And we got off shortly after that.
Then she called me 30 minutes later. I (stupidly) answered the phone, and she asked me again if I was mad at her. Then she said she didn't mean to hurt my feelings and said something about she cared about me very much and wished she could change how she felt. I said I understood that she felt she couldn't change her feelings and got off the phone again.
Then she called back about 45 min later and I didn't answer. It went to VM and she said our D5 was sick, could I call her in the morning (D5 is sick, in fact).
Not sure what to make of this. Not clear to me why she called other than looking for emotional support perhaps? Or taking my temp? I feel like I may have missed an opportunity, but not sure what to do differently if it happens again. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/10/10 Posts: 395 She's taking your temp only to see if she still has you wrapped up in her.
It's not an effort to reconcile. She's feeling empty and wants to make sure you're still there as a backup plan.
Reread your last post. She said nothing of really wanting to try to repair it. She makes excuses and calls them 'blocks'.
She was probably, and still is, having bad days. Nothing has changed. _________________________ me:29 W:25 S5 T:6 M:4 EA?? Exposed: 5/21/10 - Discovered was really PA 1/24/11 OM#1 4/10 - 11/10 OM#2 11/10 - 1/11 Bomb: 6/20/10 (Father's Day) NC w/ OM: 7/10/10 (fake) W moved out 8/21/10 Found the whole truth 1/24/11 Lied to the whole time. I D'd her - 1/20/12
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX Sounds like you validated a lot, which is good. It sounds like she wants you to tell her what to do so that she can love you again. If she isn't willing to go to counseling on her own (and then with you), there isn't much you can do for her. _________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 I would have added two things. About the not wanting to go back stuff...I would have added "Since you left me, I've spent a lot of time with professional therapy (or whatever you've done) getting to know myself as the new, adult me. Learning how I needed to improve and doing the hard work to improve. It sounds to me like you haven't done anything to change or improve yourself, so I have to wonder why you would think anything COULD be any better, if you aren't even being honest with yourself."
And toward the end, I would have added "Honestly, at this point, I feel for you but I can't even imagine being together with you again. I've grown so much and improved so much in the last 9 months that what we had before isn't good enough for me. If you ever reach the point where you're willing to take a good hard look at yourself and get some professional therapy, let me know and I'll be there for you. Until then...I just don't know what to say to you any more."
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Yeah, I agree with all 3 of you re:
1) her hurting and checking if I was still there
2) wanting ME to help her love me again, but not actually wanting to do anything HERSELF towards that,
3) that I should not need to sell myself to her, that it needs to be mutual, her also having changed her view on things, worked on her own issues/seen her own role, and seen the value in the healthier me and in a healthy restart between us.
I forgot to mention in my original message that she prefaced the "block" thing by saying that she saw how much I had changed and how much work I had done, and that's part of why she was crying so much because she saw that I was good again, but she was still blocked and broken
Something I don't understand is she IS in IC. But the stuff she told me before that they talk about in IC, to me, seems tangential not only to our R, but even to her depression/feeling/trust issues related to our R. They have talked about like her job dissatisfaction (over and over and over) or other friends of hers that she has decided not to be friends with or her general feelings of anxiety. So, even in IC, she make choices, in terms of agenda setting, not to work on the R or related issues.
Edited by bustorama (02/14/11 03:51 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX Sounds like she still hasn't recognized that there is anything that SHE can do to fix the relationship. You're right, that's her choice. IC only helps if you let it... _________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 I hope you will quit letting her get her Busto fixes. _________________________ In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer..Albert Camus
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Was I wrong to call her back in this case? From her message (wanting to talk about "us"), I thought there was real change at hand. How should I have handled it differently? _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 My WH did that over and over. When she calls and wants to talk about "us", just ask her if anything has changed, and if she says no, tell her to call if it ever does.
Quit letting her get a whiff of you. She needs to miss you.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 False starts, false hope. Ugh. I had hoped at the time that it was the universal code for 'something has changed.' _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
Stop stepping on your own toes and get out of your own way.
Calling in the Mariachis now... _________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 Next time she does it, text her back and say text to me what has changed, and I'll see if I want to talk to you. That way, she has to explain in REAL words why you should talk to her.
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#69922 - 02/15/11 09:14 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: catperson] gr8 day 2b alive Member
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 1286 Loc: Brotherly Love Busto, I had the same exact convo with my W months ago. She is lost and confused.
I remember asking my W what she wanted. She told me she didn't know. I told her I am in a good place right now and I am happy. I then asked her what makes you happy? She again she she didn't know. I then said you need to find that out.
Don't settle for these little attempts by her to test your feelings. Be strong turn the focus on her. She need to address her own fears.
You are on the verge of her turning things around. Be strong, continue to do what your doing and don't make the mistake I made:
Do not envision the two of you together again. Do not think about future plans with her and the family. These thoughts will only turn you to a melty man.
Make her work for it. If she wants it, she'll do the work. Be a challenge for her.
gr8 _________________________ Find a passion and pursue it.Fall in love.Dream Big.drink wine, eat good food and spend quality time with good friends.laugh everyday.tell stories. learn more. never give up. be grateful try new things be. happy. and above all, make every moment count.
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#69938 - 02/15/11 09:56 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] So Inspired Member
Registered: 11/18/10 Posts: 198 Originally Posted By: bustorama False starts, false hope. Ugh. I had hoped at the time that it was the universal code for 'something has changed.'
I would have gotten my hopes up too. Sorry. _________________________ You will never leave where you are until you decide where you would rather be.
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#69943 - 02/15/11 10:12 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: So Inspired] pookie69 Member
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 6390 Originally Posted By: So Ashamed Originally Posted By: bustorama False starts, false hope. Ugh. I had hoped at the time that it was the universal code for 'something has changed.'
I would have gotten my hopes up too. Sorry.
No expectations, no disappointment.
You know the drill, Busto.
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
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#70046 - 02/15/11 01:54 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: pookie69] kimmie lee Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 2738 Loc: SEATTLE, WA Yeah, calling, crying, and "I don't know" is not really helpful.
I wouldn't take any more of her calls until she "knows" something. _________________________ THE FOG comes on little cat feet.
It sits looking over harbor and city on silent haunches and then moves on....C. Sandburg
Registered: 10/12/10 Posts: 1218 Quote: Yeah, calling, crying, and "I don't know" is not really helpful.
I wouldn't take any more of her calls until she "knows" something.
Help her know the man she is apart from. Fight her feelings with feelings until her thinking changes.
Don't chase cats. You have been given some great advice from CP she speaks catnip.
Cheers _________________________ You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 A little more strangeness, I had girls this past wknd.
First Saturday night, W texted me saying, She really needed to get to work on herself over the next month. That she was a mess.
Then Sunday AM, W texted me asking to let the girls know that she was going to church and thinking of them (I think that's the first time she's gone to church since she moved out, not sure).
I didn't respond to either of these.
So, today, I dropped the girls off at W's on my way to the gym. I dropped D5 off with her bike and helmet because W had texted saying she wanted to take them to the park (D5 still only has one bike between us).
The park is right down the street from the house, so W texts me a little while ago and asks me if I want to come join them. I texted back no thanks. She texted why not. I texted Because nothing has changed.
Am I still doing this right?
The dim/NC rule with texts is only to respond to questions that involve the kids or finances, right? Basically ignore everything else? _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX I think you responded the right way. She needs to fix her part before dragging you back in. _________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
Registered: 10/12/10 Posts: 1218 Quote: I texted back no thanks. She texted why not.
Drop the bomb back on her.
"I have been doing a lot of thinking and I need to be clear headed on my future. I need to decide what is best for me and the kids so I need some time alone to think."
It's only strange because you are letting her lead. Once you lead the way becomes clear. _________________________ You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Registered: 12/22/10 Posts: 1358 I agree with Coach.
She keeps telling you she is a mess but so far has done nothing but complain and announce she is a mess. At some point you just have to figure these people make noise just to hear themselves speak and garner further attention and coddling.
That is why I think telling her "no thanks" isn't enough anymore. This has been an ongoing issue with your W. Very clear and brief messages with information are better suited as a response than just a "no".
Eventually she will hear it enough to shape up or be quiet again. But a 'no' allows her to keep asking.
WAS's don't get to ask 'why'. So try and find a good response to 'why'.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Yes, I see how it changes the dynamic if I put it that way.
She just texted me now saying that our D3 went in the potty (we have been having problems getting her to finish potty training, she has sort of regressed/stalled with the separation). I'm not sure if I should respond to that with something like:
1) That's great! (since it's kid-oriented?)
2) No response, there is no important question involving the kids, no need to respond
3) A request for her to stop texting me, that this situation and her texting me is not working for me, and I want my space and time away from her (a reiteration of the "this is not working for me" from late Dec. along the lines of what Coach posted above).
??
Edited by bustorama (02/21/11 11:26 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#72870 - 02/22/11 08:43 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] Coach Member
Registered: 10/12/10 Posts: 1218 Quote: She just texted me now saying that our D3 went in the potty
No text response. Next time you see your D3 make a big deal about praising her. "Mommy told me how good of a job you done using the potty! That's awesome!" Do it right at the exchange so your wife knows you listen and are still parenting with her from afar. Ooze confidence and sexiness and just go about your business. Busy men don't text much. _________________________ You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
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#72888 - 02/22/11 10:20 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Coach] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 OK, good, this is exactly where my intuition was! _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Had nice day with girls yesterday. D5 was out of school so we went to science museum (saw IMAX Galapagos) then to local theme park. This AM, I took D5 to play therapy then D3 to her make-up dance class. She did so much better at this one than she did with the past weekend one (where she had a meltdown).
I'm gonna go pick up some trail running shoes and homebrew supplies later this week. I have a new guy friend that also brews that is probably gonna come over on Sunday and brew with. What else, hmm...Talked to another college roomie of mine on the phone last night. We coordinated our flights to reunion so we could go to/from airport together and share rental. I hadn't talked to him since before I had decided to go NC and begin moving on, and he was very enthusiastic, saying it was definitely a good thing for me. To stick with it and good things would happen one way or the other.
W tried calling me earlier today on cell (I didn't answer, no voicemail). It's a strange game she is playing, since I was explicit with her that I only wanted to text and email and only about urgent child-related matters or finances. Will see her later today for a child exchange. Calm, cool, collected, sexy time (vurry nice, vurrry nice).
EDIT: I just noticed she sent me a funny youtube video link yesterday. No reply, too busy, too sexy, etc. etc.
Edited by bustorama (02/23/11 04:20 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Got back from mellow 5-miler with my running group along the Bay. I'm looking forward to the daylight saving time change when those runs will be at sunset again! Tonight's a catch up day around the house (girls not here).
I got an odd txt from my W tonight thanking me for a photo calendar of the girls I had made her for Christmas (with some other stuff). Text said:
"LOVE the calendar!! Thank you for making it!!"
It's like she is an alternate universe or something. 2 months ago?!??!! REALLY?!?! (not to mention another violation of NC) I guess that's disrespectful of me to say, but I don't understand where this is coming from.
BTW, what is the MO on responding to this? Based on previous stuff, my intuition is to acknowledge her thank you in person at kid exchange (rather than to ignore it outright or respond in text?). "Oh yeah, I'm glad you liked the calendar! I made it thinking you'd love being able to look up and see the girls whenever you wanted to, and I thought you guys looked great in those pics."
BTW, that's a general question for when dim -- when there is the minimal contact in context of kid exchanges and I am supposed to be calm, cool, collective and oozing confidence and sexiness, does that include pointed heartfelt compliments if there is occasion (like if she really does look good that day or did something I appreciate with the girls, etc, etc.)??? Or should I mute those and not give any signs of pursuit at all until she shows signs of some kind on her end indicating increased respect or interest in either me or the R?
Edited by bustorama (02/24/11 12:52 AM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 1258 I think you do know where this is coming from. _________________________ Me: 36 D9 and D3 Divorce final july 2010
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#73806 - 02/24/11 12:17 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Violin] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Not really, Violin.
Like I mean it is possible that the dimness has reoriented some of her attention towards me (or missing the idea of "whole family", or wanting to be sure I am still there as "backup plan", not really sure mind reading here, it could be any number of things). But it's also possible that maybe she is just so far behind on household stuff at her place that she just got to organizing her Christmas presents? Or she just finally decided to put the calendar up somewhere, who knows?
The thing is the same sort of stuff kind of happened in the fall when I wasn't calling or texting her, etc. She would call out of the blue and invite me to go do something with her, but they all were 'garden paths' Didn't really lead to anything. From where I sit, it seems like she comes in and out of her fog and notices, oh yeah, look at this calendar, oh yeah, I guess I haven't talked to Busto in a week (or two), I wonder what he is doing, then she would get her fix and go back to her WAS world.
Edited by bustorama (02/24/11 12:50 AM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#73824 - 02/24/11 01:00 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] CajunRose Member
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX I think you've answered yourself - she gets her fix of yu and then is back in her own world. So do something different - don't give her the fix. Don't acknowledge the text. See how creative she can be in trying to tempt you into talking to her. _________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 Don't acknowledge her. If she brings it up at exchange, repeat "I have nothing to say to you unless you're ready to address my requirements for this marriage."
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: catperson Don't acknowledge her. If she brings it up at exchange, repeat "I have nothing to say to you unless you're ready to address my requirements for this marriage."
Hmm, I guess this is the part I'm not sure of. The above to me still sounds like I am hung up on her and the marriage, it's like indirect pursuit and seems like pressuring through words -- change your behavior. If I'm really just sort of done with things and moving on because the whole sitch isn't working for me, why would I even address the marriage? Help me understand here.
Edited by bustorama (02/24/11 01:10 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX I think if she were to ask "Did you get my text?" or something I'd just say "Yup" and leave it at that. Don't volunteer, but don't be hung up on the marriage either. _________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
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#74028 - 02/24/11 02:18 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: catperson] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 If she brings up the calendar in person, say "You're welcome."
That's it. Stop.
Cajun is correct...don't give her the fix. Which would be you sharing you're glad she likes your gift. That's meeting the EN of honesty, intimacy...sharing your stuff with her.
However, even to a stranger saying "thank you" for something, your minimum boundary of respect is "you're welcome."
Acknowledges their appreciation.
Get your nose out of her stuff. You don't know. You don't know right now. She isn't telling you why she's doing what she's doing. You don't need to know...
you need to focus on what you're doing/not doing and why. Period. For you, about you and your own boundaries.
That's the big picture...you've got a good handle on text/email...and non-response when she crosses that boundary. Stick to those. Be what you crave from her most...consistency, clarity, understanding.
Be consistent with yourself...go for clarity and understanding in your own mind and heart.
Stop there.
You're doing really well staying connected to old friends, minding your own plans, your GAL actions...seems like there's only a tad of confusion, hesitation, when you turn your thoughts to dwelling in HER thoughts...yucky, messy, confusing place to be.
Don't go there.
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
I don't really see it as a question of whether I am done or not done. I think there are three things I'm thinking about, each having to do with what I would like to communicate to my W.
One is that she has said to me through most of her words and actions that she does not want this M/R. If I say to her that I am not speaking to her until she meets my requirements for the M/R, then, to me, it seems that I am essentially invalidating her (I would be indirectly pursuing an M/R, while she says she doesn't want an M/R). I do not want to invalidate her. From my point of view, if there is going to be any discussion of requirements for an M/R, it will take her saying or doing something indicating that she WANTS an M/R with me. Otherwise, it seems to me, I am basically telling her that I don't care what she wants. Does this make sense?
The second is that I want to keep communicating that this situation and the way I'm being treated in it is unacceptable to me (boundary enforcement). In a case where she was interested in an M/R, then what you say is a perfectly good boundary enforcement. But, since she has told me she isn't interested in it, I'm basically left with just removing myself from the situation and doing something else that I do want. No?
The third is that by saying I won't speak to you unless you meet my requirements for M, that also may indirectly communicate to W that I am waiting here for her to come around (low value in RobX's lingo). If I go about my business and do my own thing, it communicates that I am not waiting for her to come around, no? I will live my life.
Edited by bustorama (02/24/11 02:43 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway If she brings up the calendar in person, say "You're welcome."
That's it. Stop.
Cajun is correct...don't give her the fix. Which would be you sharing you're glad she likes your gift. That's meeting the EN of honesty, intimacy...sharing your stuff with her.
OK, this is definitely the hard part for me. Because, even to strangers, I say things like "You're welcome, I'm glad you liked it."
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Get your nose out of her stuff. You don't know. You don't know right now. She isn't telling you why she's doing what she's doing. You don't need to know...
OK, suppose she starts trying to share her world with me again in person at kid exchanges. (again, not saying anything explicit about reconciliation or interest in R/M, just trying to open up and be intimate). Then what?
"Sorry, since things don't seem to be working out between us, I can't just be friends with you. Definitely not now, at least. I need space and time to myself to work on myself and my life and figure out what's right for me and the girls."
????
_________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX The first sentence says everything...."Since things don't seem to be working out between us, I can't just be friends with you." or, more simply "Sorry, I would have been your husband, but I'm unwilling to be your friend." (I've used this one on STBXH a few times.) _________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 Originally Posted By: bustorama [OK, this is definitely the hard part for me. Because, even to strangers, I say things like "You're welcome, I'm glad you liked it." Even strangers who have stabbed you in the back?
Why do you OWE her decency, when she didn't offer it to you?
Treat her as an enemy, one you have to deal with because of kids, but nothing beyond that.
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#74323 - 02/25/11 12:47 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: catperson] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Well, the argument has been made to me (by some people on this forum) that because *I* previously betrayed *HER* (with my EAs) that I essentially already broke the marriage contract. And at that point SHE didn't owe me decency or owe me staying in the relationship, if she chose not to. So, if she decided to leave, my appropriate plan of option was to move on and just be the best, most attractive man I could be.
Basically, it's an argument that you can't legitimately see your business partner as an enemy if they decide not to be your business partner anymore because you stole from them. You can go on and try to be a kick ass businessperson with integrity.
Edited by bustorama (02/25/11 02:41 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#74741 - 02/26/11 01:29 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Went with D5 to aquarium in AM. We had fun. At kid exchange with W, she started telling me about the new paleo diet she was going to try and some other things. I nodded and mentioned another friend of mine was doing that. Got dance bags for girls' and D5's backpack out of my car and gave them to W. Told D5 I loved her and said bye. Then off to work.
Tomorrow AM I am going for a run around the bay with some running friends. It should be fun cause we are forecast to have some crazy rain, hehe. I picked up another long-sleeved tech shirt to layer for it. The only water resistant shells they had at the store would have made me look like Michael Jackson in Thriller. Don't feel like moonwalking the run.
3 calls and hangups from W tonight (2 to cell phone, 1 to landline). No VM, no texts. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#74778 - 02/26/11 11:04 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 I appreciate your efforts to understand boundaries and boundary enforcements clearly.
First, you were wayward in your marriage...you are not now. You have amended and continue to live your amends. You have personal redemption...and your BW chose to stay for awhile, and instead of recover, to then leave the marriage. You don't know why she chose to do so in relation to your infidelity. You changed every previous choice...you closed the void, filled the hole, built the fence...inside and out...for you and the marriage. And you've kept those changes going, solidly in place.
And your kids have your attention, connection...which is invaluable to you, I think. Your redemption has many rewards. One of them you really wanted was the marriage. Still might be one...might not.
You have the boundary of respect...so "You're welcome" isn't a toss-off...it's respectful, non-intimately honest. It IS what you'd say to a stranger.
Think about connection...strangers are people we haven't made an individual connection with yet. You open a door for someone at the store...it's a five-second connection...from your own boundary, not about them, actually.
When you add that "I'm glad you like it", you are sharing your stuff with them. It's an act of intimacy...a light one. Shares who you are with another person. It's a minuscule advance of intimacy. Not huge. More than "You're welcome."
To answer your second question, I'm quoting you from your post to Cat, first:
Originally Posted By: bustorama One is that she has said to me through most of her words and actions that she does not want this M/R. If I say to her that I am not speaking to her until she meets my requirements for the M/R, then, to me, it seems that I am essentially invalidating her (I would be indirectly pursuing an M/R, while she says she doesn't want an M/R). I do not want to invalidate her. From my point of view, if there is going to be any discussion of requirements for an M/R, it will take her saying or doing something indicating that she WANTS an M/R with me. Otherwise, it seems to me, I am basically telling her that I don't care what she wants. Does this make sense?
The second is that I want to keep communicating that this situation and the way I'm being treated in it is unacceptable to me (boundary enforcement). In a case where she was interested in an M/R, then what you say is a perfectly good boundary enforcement. But, since she has told me she isn't interested in it, I'm basically left with just removing myself from the situation and doing something else that I do want. No?
The third is that by saying I won't speak to you unless you meet my requirements for M, that also may indirectly communicate to W that I am waiting here for her to come around (low value in RobX's lingo). If I go about my business and do my own thing, it communicates that I am not waiting for her to come around, no? I will live my life.
Boundaries are really tough, because like Cat said, why treat others better than they treated you? Well...because boundaries really do take the tit-for-tat and earning-love out of the equation.
Healthy boundaries and predetermined, progressive enforcements make you embody what they are...honesty, respect, consideration, acceptance...so you become love...no earning/punishing involved.
If you stick to only taking your first boundary enforcement to stating "This is unacceptable" and do not make it progressive, then it isn't a real boundary around yourself. And I think you understand this...removing yourself, going dim, is a boundary enforcement because she continued to cross your boundary. Don't go backwards to the first enforcement. Respect she knows...she's not stupid. She can certainly treat herself as stupid...doesn't mean you do.
That would be you crossing your own boundaries. That would be manipulation not respect. You don't enforce your boundaries to get her to stop crossing them. You do it because that's your own code, what you hold yourself to doing.
Check your intent when you get blurry. We can slip back into manipulate and control (fantasy) of our long-practiced tit-for-tat, only treating you as good as you treat me distortion of the Golden Rule.
You broke free from that. When you were having the online EAs...you were justifying them based on distorted reasoning. So your clarity is really important to you. It wasn't your habit before...and it is now.
So, if she begins sharing her stuff with you, stop her. "I love the intimacy we had in our marriage where I get to know you, know your stuff. Right now, we are not intimate. I don't trust you. I know you have chosen not to work on the marriage."
You may not want to say that. You may want to simply hold your hand up and say "Parenting-related only information." Smile and then leave.
Up to you. Both state boundaries. One does it better. She attempts to do it again, hold the hand up, shake your head slowly and leave without a word said.
Does it again, hold the hand up as you leave.
Progressive. Respectful. No door slamming, dirty looks, mocking gestures, shrugs or exasperated body language.
This does require you believe she gets it and she's choosing to not respect the boundary. If you choose to perceive her as just not understanding it and accidentally crossing the boundary, you won't enforce. Which makes it about her. She's smarter than that. You were really clear. Which is why you don't repeat. She knows. Respect her. She knows.
Do you think it's okay to not trust your spouse? Do you experience her acting untrustworthy as you not being trustworthy?
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway I appreciate your efforts to understand boundaries and boundary enforcements clearly.
And I appreciate your efforts to help me understand them =)
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway One of them you really wanted was the marriage. Still might be one...might not.
The same marriage, yes, but with a new relationship, not the old or current one.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway You have the boundary of respect...so "You're welcome" isn't a toss-off...it's respectful, non-intimately honest. It IS what you'd say to a stranger.
Think about connection...strangers are people we haven't made an individual connection with yet. You open a door for someone at the store...it's a five-second connection...from your own boundary, not about them, actually.
When you add that "I'm glad you like it", you are sharing your stuff with them. It's an act of intimacy...a light one. Shares who you are with another person. It's a minuscule advance of intimacy. Not huge. More than "You're welcome."
OK, I see the distinction. I say stuff like "I'm glad you like it." to an acquaintance, though not to a stranger. To a friend, I would go further and say something about this made me think of you or I was thinking of you, or this reminded me of when you and blah, blah, etc. So, when someone is dim/dark as part of a boundary enforcement, one should only offer respect (assuming one is being treated respectfully) but only offer the level of intimacy afforded to a stranger (i.e., non-intimacy)? Not even to an acquaintance? I guess this is the part that I don't fully understand. Why treat them as a stranger, rather than an acquaintance (familiar, but not very intimate)? Is the idea because they are violating our boundaries by leaving the marriage and splitting our family? I guess that's the part I don't understand. I obviously don't like that she is doing that, but why does she revert to stranger, rather than acquaintance, status at that point?
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway If you stick to only taking your first boundary enforcement to stating "This is unacceptable" and do not make it progressive, then it isn't a real boundary around yourself. And I think you understand this...removing yourself, going dim, is a boundary enforcement because she continued to cross your boundary.
Yes.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Don't go backwards to the first enforcement. Respect she knows...she's not stupid. She can certainly treat herself as stupid...doesn't mean you do.
Yes, I get confused when she seems to test/violate the boundaries. That's about her, though. I'm not in her head to understand why she is doing it and I see I shouldn't try to go there. Just stay in my head and keep minding my boundaries.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway You don't enforce your boundaries to get her to stop crossing them. You do it because that's your own code, what you hold yourself to doing.
Check your intent when you get blurry. We can slip back into manipulate and control (fantasy) of our long-practiced tit-for-tat, only treating you as good as you treat me distortion of the Golden Rule.
I think I get it, it's about I won't let myself be treated this way -- a way that makes me feel bad, used, whatever negative emotion that is alerting us some boundary needs minding (and as I get better at it, I will be able to mind the boundary before it gets crossed)
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway So, if she begins sharing her stuff with you, stop her. "I love the intimacy we had in our marriage where I get to know you, know your stuff. Right now, we are not intimate. I don't trust you. I know you have chosen not to work on the marriage."
You may not want to say that. You may want to simply hold your hand up and say "Parenting-related only information." Smile and then leave.
Yes, I see.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Do you think it's okay to not trust your spouse?
These are rhetorical, I think, but trust is essential. Isn't that a big part of the problem though? She tells me she doesn't trust me (or anyone for that matter) because of my EA's, and I don't trust her because she is abandoning the marriage, splitting the family, shutting me out of parts of her life, and I am uncertain as to what she is up to.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Do you experience her acting untrustworthy as you not being trustworthy?
I think I understand that you are saying her actions are about her, and I shouldn't personalize them or accept them as being about me? Nor try to convince her/manipulate her to act trustworthy to me? I just be trustworthy and it's her choice how to act. If I feel someone acting untrustworthy towards me, I should just boundary enforce. Their choice how to act then.
Am I in the ballpark?
Edited by bustorama (02/27/11 04:03 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Did 9.5 mile run around bay yesterday AM with running friends. It was alot of fun running in the rain, hehe. Afterwards, a few of us went for a post-run brunch, delicious breakfast burrito. Found out one of the guys is essentially my neighbor. Numbers exchanged, etc. etc.
Did house stuff during day, then went to an alumni B-Ball watching party. My team lost =( Hung out with new friends I've made from the alumni group and met a couple of new people. UFC fights came on after and we watched those too. BJ Penn looks like he doesn't have much left in him, huh? I think Fitch got kind of jobbed with that majority draw decision, but at least we get to see them fight again.
I accidentally rear ended someone on the way home. I was at a stop light and eased forward when the turn lane next to me started moving (I was looking at the turn lane). Next thing I know, BUMP. Luckily no damage to either car, no injury. I read somewhere that the rate of traffic accidents is much greater in people that are in the midst of separation and divorce. Add me to that statistic...
This AM I went to church. Ran into the neighbor running guy at church (how random). During service I noticed W and D's were at other end of church (it's a really big church) -- 2 weekends in a row that she has gone. After service I walked over to say hi to the girls and hug them. Poor D3 was showing separation anxiety and didn't want to hug me -- I think she was afraid I was going to take her from W. Eventually she did hug when W told her I wasn't going to take her. W said something about D3 needs to learn to trust -- elaborated to needs to learn to trust that I won't take her. D5 asked me if I was coming to swimming, and I said, no honey, I'm sorry I can't this week, but I definitely will take you next week! I told girls I loved them and said bye to W.
After church, had a great interval spinning class. I am exhausted. Am gonna go grub up and then do more housework stuff. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
One thing I've read about kid transfers is that the parent who is relinquishing custody should drop the kid off at the other parent's place so that there isn't a sense of "taking her from W." That's not always easy to do, but something you might think about so that there's less tension with D3. That's a tough age for any girl to have to leave her mother.
You sound like you're doing most things right with W. Just remember No More Mr. Nice Guy. Don't share your life with her, and don't let her share hers with you. Just exchange the kids, be polite, and live your life. Don't let her reel you back onto Planet Fruitopia. This isn't just for you, or your kids, but for her also. She needs to deal with her issues, and if she can continually get her fix of you while still having so many problems, then you're not doing her or yourself any favors.
She feels the rope is dropped and will keep trying to lasso you! _________________________ The best things in life aren't things.
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#75170 - 02/27/11 05:10 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 Originally Posted By: bustorama OK, I see the distinction. I say stuff like "I'm glad you like it." to an acquaintance, though not to a stranger. To a friend, I would go further and say something about this made me think of you or I was thinking of you, or this reminded me of when you and blah, blah, etc. So, when someone is dim/dark as part of a boundary enforcement, one should only offer respect (assuming one is being treated respectfully) but only offer the level of intimacy afforded to a stranger (i.e., non-intimacy)? Not even to an acquaintance? I guess this is the part that I don't fully understand. Why treat them as a stranger, rather than an acquaintance (familiar, but not very intimate)? Is the idea because they are violating our boundaries by leaving the marriage and splitting our family? I guess that's the part I don't understand. I obviously don't like that she is doing that, but why does she revert to stranger, rather than acquaintance, status at that point?
You determine how far into your intimate circle someone is...not them.
Any "why" question..."why does she revert" "why does she not understand" is a violation of your boundary of respect. Honesty mandates you say "I don't know her whys. I am solely responsible for my own whys."
Here's what I see:
Right now, you're forming boundaries and predetermining progressive enforcements. You did this, in part, after your EAs in online gaming. You no longer participate in online games. You enforce that around yourself. And others...you became aware and stayed aware of attention to your spouse, your kids and the marriage. You identified emotional needs you didn't meet in the marriage and you eliminated love busters you used to do.
You held to amending through new choices...you did your how and why you wouldn't attack the marriage with infidelity again.
Your BW/WAW stayed while you implemented boundary enforcements around you and the marriage. Then she walked away.
Your wife decided to no longer act as your wife, your partner. She separated from you (remind me if she filed for divorce or didn't) by having you leave the family home.
She decided to end the marriage without working on the marriage; then she acted at times, as if she wanted to begin piecing, and then acted at other times, as if she didn't again.
During those times, she literally moved from partner, to spouse, to actions to be ex-spouse, to friend, ex-friend, and in between, co-parent, non-co-parent.
She is married today. To you. Understandable that knowing this and her acting as if she is not is confusing, messy. Where to put her?
Do the same as you did with yourself...when she's attacking the marriage, she is not your partner--not someone you share with or allowed to be shared with. Not someone you go to weddings with, or do family events with. She is actively attacking the marriage until she does what you did--owns what she did, why she did it, and how and why she won't do it again.
So there is stranger, acquaintance, friend, partner...and the acquaintance, friend and partner roles have histories...or not.
At times, our friends aren't really our friends, when they aren't friends of our marriage. Same for acquaintances and partners. Doesn't change their roles, changes where you move them to during their actions, in the circles of intimacy.
You don't meet the ENs of someone attacking the marriage. You watch constantly for ways you may be attacking it yourself.
You seem to do a great job of that.
Now, about trust in marriage...
Essential? No. I was surprised to learn that. Because I lived it. Love and respect builds trust, over time. You can love and respect someone without giving your half of trust. The other half is them earning it.
It's okay to not trust your wife, Bustor. Healthy distrust is knowing they are choosing their actions, based on their choices, not in your control. And when they don't have a code they live by--are confusing, wavering back and forth, saying one thing and doing another...it's healthy to not trust them.
Doesn't destroy anything. In part, though, we are trained to believe trust is essential; if we don't have it, we aren't connected.
We are connected, affected, influenced and influencing, anyway.
Yes, you're in the ballpark very much.
Trust is built when we act to our boundaries, enforce as we promised ourselves...and become very trustworthy for ourselves.
Takes time, repetition, examination, awareness and our own goal to be trustworthy. That's when blind trust becomes repugnant, btw.
When we are focused on someone else, we aren't aware of our own boundaries...we're all over theirs, or the lack thereof. We will feel more fear, less clarity and more anger because we aren't seated where we have true responsibility.
I think it's the core of GAL, actually. To know what is yours separate from theirs. To take back your own power, in thoughts, beliefs, perceptions and perspective...that is the letting go part most of us fear.
The breaking of enmeshment.
Not to get them to notice our loss...not to get them to change, wake up or respect.
For us, to us, about us. Our choices.
Unraveling enmeshment takes time, has more to it than you imagined...to see the big chords and the tiny tendrils...an ongoing process.
Often, we experience this as the undoing of our union...where it's busting to pieces when really, enmeshment is...so that overlap distracts us.
For a healthy, vintage love...knowing where you end and your spouse begins is essential...interdependent and not enmeshed. Creates that new marriage, new relationship you really want.
And part of that foundation is knowing every word spoken, action taken by you, matters. Discerning what those are, if they are within your own boundaries, is your job, part of your goal...not dependent on her words or actions.
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
MALovingAnyway@gmail.com
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#75173 - 02/27/11 05:14 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 Building trust...each time you see DD3 and hug her, without taking her with you...builds that trust.
Kudos and blessings for your deep understanding, your compassionate and aware heart, Bustor.
You'll have those bumps in the road (literally and figuratively) and some will not do the damage you feared, and others may have greater consequences. Know at all times, you are on this journey, you're not alone, and that you matter.
You're making connections...I challenge you to think of the new acquaintance as not random, at church and the alumni group.
And the rest...well, what Pinhead said.
smile
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
MALovingAnyway@gmail.com
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#75684 - 03/01/11 02:24 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Had a good 5 mile run tonight with my group! Ran with a guy I've talked to more the last few runs and another guy I met a couple of months ago but hadn't seen since. We were cruising along and then got into a heated discussion about politics. Didn't notice it at time but we started running faster and faster cause we were fired up. When we finished and looked at the Garmin/GPS split times we all started laughing.
When I finished and got back in my car, noticed there were missed calls from W, 2 voicemails, and 3 texts. (I had been away from my phone for about 2 hours between the run, core workout and socializing). I later saw there also were missed calls on the home landline. The first two texts had kid-related questions issues in rapid succession. The third text (also rapidly after the others) said:
"You're ignoring all of my calls makes u look like a tool in front of your kids. What if it was an emergency???"
I started to text her that I had been running and was now back at my phone when another text rolled in right behind the other one:
"You are being a jerk ignoring my calls. This is exactly why I left you."
So I send two texts:
The first responded to the kid issues
The second said, "I just got back in my car. i have been at ... park away from phone running. How am I a jerk because I was running?"
W: "You are just ignoring me. I have been calling and texting you about other things and you never answer my calls or respond to me."
M: "I believe I have responded to every txt or email u sent. In the event of an emergency, you can also leave a voice mail."
W: "I have called you other times and u ignore. I am not fighting now. Sorry."
M: Thank u for saying you are sorry. Oh I see, we agreed to communicate only by txt and email and only about kid issues and finances.
W: Response related to kid issue complicates kid issue. No response re: method of communication.
The kid issue is complicated, and I am getting fed up with all the calls W has been making and now the accusations related to the calling, so I pick up the phone and call W.
(on phone)
W answers the phone and her voice is shaking, sounds like she is on verge of crying.
M : Address kid issue
W : W addresses kid issue then starts to try to talk about D3 misbehaving with her and problems at work. That she has a horrible headache things are so bad.
M : Redirect to kid issue
W : Addresses kid issue, then starts talking about how I ignore her calls and am not communicating with her. Says she has no one here anymore. Full on crying now. No one to help her. Everyone thinks she is the bad guy, my family, her family, friends. Saying how everyone thinks she is the bad guy, that I am the good guy. That they don't know why she had to leave, how she felt. That I am always smiling and happy. That she should move back to hometown where people there would at least communicate with her and help with the girls. Says she saw how I had communicated with my ex and I won't communicate with her just cause I am not getting what I want. That I am spoiled. That I am even ignoring her emails.
M : OK, I want to be very clear about this in case I was not clear before. About our communication, I only want to talk about kid issues and finances and I only will respond to texts or emails. I also would respond to a voicemail if it is an emergency--
W : But you are ignoring my emails too. You are just doing this because you are not getting your way and you don't like what I have to say. You aren't willing to talk about anything. If you don't like it, you shut it down.
M : I am doing this for several reasons, one of which happened tonight. I won't subject myself to this level of anger and false accusations anymore. Tonight, I was called a tool, a jerk, a bad model for my kids and told that I was ignoring calls and emails. In fact, I was running, was following an agreement we had, and have not yet seen the email you sent yet, which I do not doubt you sent, because I didn't check my email in the last few hours. I will check my email after we hang up.
I hear that you are sad and angry. I would be willing to talk to you about anything and everything if it was going somewhere. I wanna repeat that. I would be willing to talk about anything and everything if it was going somewhere But, as far as I can tell, this is more of the same that I set this boundary for -- me being clubbed by your anger about the past, about things for which I have already apologized, made amends, and sought solutions. Doesn't work for me to keep subjecting myself to this.
Is there anything else [about the kid issue]?
W : No
M : OK, have a good night.
Short while later,
W texts : Something additional re: kid issue. Sorry for getting upset. Feeling emotional tonight.
M : Thanks again for saying ur sorry. Address kid issue.
W : Thank you so much for [helping resolve kid issue]! D5 will be so happy!
M : Ur welcome.
I was torn on whether to call or not, but I felt I should -- not just to help resolve the kid issue -- but especially to make sure the boundary and acceptable method of communication would now be clear.
It can't be any clearer now, I don't think. Thoughts? _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#75699 - 03/01/11 08:08 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] Coach Member
Registered: 10/12/10 Posts: 1218 Lookat how many times she says "you". She's mind-reading and projecting. Call her out when she assigns motive to "you." Let her know what you really think and do.
Call her out on using the words never and always as well. This feeds her pessisim. Pay very close attention to her words. _________________________ You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
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#75729 - 03/01/11 10:03 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Coach] Pinhead Member
Registered: 11/08/10 Posts: 627 She got her fix of you; was able to vent on you; blame you for everything in her life. Also, recognize that she's using D3 in an attempt to control you.
Don't continually restate your boundary with her. Every time you do, you're just giving her the fix she craves. I would be really blunt:
"We're not in a relationship; you don't want that. So we're just coparents with the girls. Lets leave everything else out, and just have them be our focus."
And if she tries to ambush you at an exchange, be firm.
"I don't want to talk about that now."
Unless it's an emergency, don't call her back. Use email or texts to reply to child related stuff. If she brings up personal stuff, I wouldn't reply.
_________________________ The best things in life aren't things.
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#75744 - 03/01/11 10:45 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Pinhead] catperson Member
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 Are you using cozi.com for the kids' schedules?
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: Coach Lookat how many times she says "you". She's mind-reading and projecting. Call her out when she assigns motive to "you." Let her know what you really think and do.
Yes, this is one of the reasons I called because it was clear to me that she was doing this ("you are a tool" "you are ignoring me" etc. etc.). In other conversations, I have explicitly said, "Please do not put thoughts in my head. If you want to know what I am thinking or why I did something, please ask me." This seems to work well because she used to get REALLY angry at me for doing the exact same thing to her. I have noticed, though, that when we are in no contact that she seems to put negative thoughts in my head and attribute negative motive to me more and more. Like, when I am present, I can call her out on it -- challenge the negative attribution/projection. When I am not there, it seems like a runaway train sort of process - goes unchecked. And I become SATAN in her mind. The problem is that SHE needs to be the one to learn to challenge her own negative attributions and thought stop herself. Not sure how that will happen...Perhaps if I point it out to her when it does happen, she might begin tosee the pattern herself??
I agree that I should have been more explicit in this convo. That's what I was getting at when I said to her, "You said i was doing this and that and so forth. In fact, I was doing this and that and that." I should have prefaced that with, please don't put thoughts or attributions in my head...etc.
Originally Posted By: Coach Call her out on using the words never and always as well. This feeds her pessisim. Pay very close attention to her words.
Yes, she has some serious black and white thinking as well as stable and global negative attributions going on and in many different arenas (No one, everyone, never, always, etc.). She seems very depressed, and the cognitive distortions affect so much of how she views me, herself, and others. I feel helpless and frustrated, but I see that I can be challenge that process by calling her out on it when she does it. Same problem as above, though -- she needs to learn to do it for herself.
The hard part is I can only challenge her attributions in the brief times that we interact by text or email in the context of no contact. Thoughts?
Edited by bustorama (03/01/11 01:03 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: Pinhead She got her fix of you; was able to vent on you;
Yeah, I know. I really struggled about calling her or not, but felt I had to to be 100% sure that the boundary was clear because from what she was saying she seemed very unclear about it. I feel much more comfortable now that I have definitively restated my boundary and boundary enforcement, so maintaining dimness will be much easier. I won't have uncertainties that it was about me and my not being clear. If there are problems now, I can totally let them go as being about her and her issues.
Also -- she did say "Sorry" to me twice during the txt convo, where saying it even once is unusual for her, so I don't think the outcome was all negative.
Originally Posted By: Pinhead blame you for everything in her life.
Yeah, I think she does this whether or not I am in contact with her, heh. I just experience it when I come into contact with her.
Originally Posted By: Pinhead Also, recognize that she's using D3 in an attempt to control you.
Yes, it's kind of been like this since Day 1, hasn't it? (D3 and D5). The new twist here was directly trying to throw the guilt trip about looking like a tool in front of the girls. I really hope she isn't going down a road of talking trash about me in front of the girls for not responding to her calls.
Originally Posted By: Pinhead Don't continually restate your boundary with her.
Yes, I agree. I really feel comfortable about the boundary being clear now and feel justified in not restating it again at this point. I didn't feel that way before.
Originally Posted By: Pinhead I would be really blunt:
"We're not in a relationship; you don't want that. So we're just coparents with the girls. Lets leave everything else out, and just have them be our focus."
OK, yes. I think I would drop the "you don't want that." And I would change the Let's.... to be "I" focused:
Look, we're not in a relationship with each other anymore. I do want to be good co-parents for the girls. I want them to be our focus.
???
Originally Posted By: Pinhead And if she tries to ambush you at an exchange, be firm.
"I don't want to talk about that now."
Yeah, with LA's "stop" hand.
Originally Posted By: Pinhead Unless it's an emergency, don't call her back. Use email or texts to reply to child related stuff. If she brings up personal stuff, I wouldn't reply.
That's where I'm at. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: catperson Are you using cozi.com for the kids' schedules?
I hadn't been, but will sign up for it. The schedule stuff is actually not an issue now -- the way it is setup, all kid exchanges will be at school or daycare from this week on (no face-to-face kid exchanges), unless it is some strange exception (holiday, etc.).
It may help us communicate about other kid stuff though (like the financial/purchase issue that was the issue last night). _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 Your wife seems to find a lot of strange exceptions _________________________ In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer..Albert Camus
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 This last week the need for kid exchanges was because the girls' school was out all week for President's Week. When school is in session, there's absolutely no reason for us to see each other. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Your W is expressing anxiety for losing the control of the comfort zone she has been in during your R.
All this "you" projection is testing. The Mariachis are gone, the toenails are no longer painted. There is no more massages.
Your kids are the only topic of conversation left to be conversed about.
Do not react to this "thank you, I feel so emotional today".
There is a reason she feels that way.
You're fired, if she cracks the door, you'll tell her that you have a better job now. It is about your self worth, mistakes and all.
_________________________ "A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand
Registered: 09/02/10 Posts: 12109 Great advice, Pookie. _________________________ In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer..Albert Camus
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: pookie69 Busto,
Your W is expressing anxiety for losing the control of the comfort zone she has been in during your R.
All this "you" projection is testing. The Mariachis are gone, the toenails are no longer painted. There is no more massages.
Yes, the way she says some of it also sounds like she is trying to keep me in the 'bad guy' role in her mind (rather than herself, like she perceives others as seeing her), so as to justify her ongoing choices.
Originally Posted By: pookie69 Do not react to this "[sorry], I feel so emotional today".
Hmmm, I feel that I should acknowledge her sorrys by accepting them and thanking her for apologizing. It's respectful, and it's also what I wish she would do for MY previous sorrys (throughout our R, not just for my EAs). If I ignore her sorrys, it seems to be more of the same bitter grudge holding that she is doing, no? Help me see your point of view here.
And if she says thank you to me, what is wrong with your welcome???
Originally Posted By: pookie69 There is a reason she feels that way.
You mean that her feeling that way is the apple cart being overturned, right? The script not being followed? The comfort zone/rules being changed?
Originally Posted By: pookie69 You're fired, if she cracks the door, you'll tell her that you have a better job now. It is about your self worth, mistakes and all.
I sort of feel like she fired me, and she wanted to keep me around as a "manny" to kick every now and then, hehe. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#76152 - 03/02/11 10:13 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 Bustor,
You don't make a boundary clear by breaking it.
Your boundary to email or text only is a healthy one. For you and others. Calling her to state the boundary again, instead of emailing or texting it was "do as I say, not as I do" and that's okay, because you wanted to call her. Period.
Accepting (not approving) that we truly do what we want to do in this life...and how much we use others to justify our actions actually helps you with clarity and not doing something because of a higher payoff down the line.
Can you accept you called because you wanted to make yourself very clear to yourself? Others will cross your boundary...when you do, there's nowhere else to go. Signals are feeling trapped, painted into a corner...and you've got the brush in your own hand.
It's done. You took a lot of hits and you gave a few. Maybe you wanted to hear her two sorry "sorries" more than anything. Just a crumb of some decency for connection. You experienced those two sorries. They weren't apologies.
I remember when I was desperate for a single sorry. I'm not dunning you.
Your boundary of honesty is about you, to yourself. Own what you choose to do, why you choose to do it...what you most crave she would do...check to make sure you're doing it.
When you are...the craving for her to change drops.
She calls you a name (tool)...end the conversation. Say "I don't listen to verbal abuse anymore. Name-calling is abusive." Then hang up. No kidding. It's long over do...violates your respect boundary. When you don't state it, enforce it...then you're agreeing with it...and it makes her actions more important than yours...
and it's you doing that. Not her.
As soon as you feel justified, believe you can justify actions...then you're in her territory, not in your own boundaries. Understand it's a signal to you, from you, about you...because we lie to ourselves.
Now, what's your next progressive boundary enforcement if she continues to call, whether she leaves voicemail or not? Would you change your number and go to email only? Maybe call it online only and include cozi.net?
Enforcements are respectful. Acknowledges you do not control anyone's choices. Enforcements are your choices, predetermined, before you're appalled and upset that someone keeps crossing them. They are your safeguard...and all about you. Not them. They help you heal, act, not react...and what you most want to example for your kids.
Bet you've told your girls not to call each other names. They hear their mom call their father names...don't do that double standard, 'k? For them, until you'll do it for you.
And you wouldn't have uncertainties of it being about you when you hold to your boundaries and double-check them. Lies to self create uncertainties...going into other people's stuff (crosses respect boundary) creates uncertainties. You were clear. You state it once. Don't repeat. And don't cross your own to point out your boundary.
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway You don't make a boundary clear by breaking it.
Heh, I totally see this now. I see that I was being hypocritical/dishonest to myself and that I was using a glorified form of, "She made me do it!" to "justify" my hypocritical action. I see that I had alternative actions and that I was making her perceptions/actions more important than my own by "adopting" her reality.
I'm trying here, I really am!!!
One thing I've noticed is that when my emotions are running highest is when I tend to misstep in terms of things that I've learned.
I also recognize there is still that enmeshment there because I still internalize/accept her projected emotions and feel compelled to respond, refute or address them (instead of mirror them back and accept those issues as her own).
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway You took a lot of hits and you gave a few.
Can you say a little more about what you mean by the above? What hits were given and received? Do you mean the name calling? What hits did I give to her?
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Maybe you wanted to hear her two sorry "sorries" more than anything.
I was motivated by wanting her stop misperceiving my actions as my being a tool and jerk, especially if she was grandstanding in front of the girls (that's what I pictured her doing), so I wanted to explain that I was not ignoring her, but adhering to the boundary enforcement I had stated.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway You experienced those two sorries. They weren't apologies.
The above seems like mind reading and a disrespectful judgment to me? She texted that she was sorry. Isn't it a DJ not to take that at face value???
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway She calls you a name (tool)...end the conversation. Say "I don't listen to verbal abuse anymore. Name-calling is abusive."
Yeah, since we have had so little contact lately, I had gotten out of the habit of standing up for my respect boundary (since others don't disrespect me). I completely forgot that this was the better way to handle it -- not to try to talk her out of or convince her out of disrespecting me, as I did.
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway Now, what's your next progressive boundary enforcement if she continues to call, whether she leaves voicemail or not?
What would be wrong with just not responding to the call? (she hasn't called since our convo). I don't want to inconvenience myself by changing my number and all that entails. I also am reluctant to cut-off calls in the event that there really is an emergency. If it got really harassing, I think I can selectively block her number, no? If I felt harassed, I would text her that if she continues to call me, I will block her number from my phone? (or would that be restating the boundary??? I would just go directly to blocking her number??).
_________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
Did you see the posts Gnosis put on CD's thread about detachment?
They are good ones. _________________________ In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer..Albert Camus
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#76271 - 03/02/11 01:24 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] LovingAnyway Board of Directors Treasurer Member
Registered: 08/05/10 Posts: 2214 Bustor, you are doing, not trying.
You get this. Understand, that you have revoked your permission to cross your boundaries at the first level. Then you hit another level...and you crossed them. You learned. You revoke them at that level. Then the next.
It's a process, not perfection.
What's important is that you amend. And you did. In your post. You recognized what you did, why you did it, and how and why you won't do it again...at that level of upset.
Amends are true apologies. Which is why I said your W's sorries weren't apologies. Not a DJ. She said what she was sorry for doing, not why she did it, nor how or why she wouldn't do it again.
If you accept "sorry" instead of amends, you will also only give sorry, first part. That constant two-way street stays active, all the time.
My intent is to encourage, clarify...not saying you're doing it wrong, you're wrong, or making a mess. You're in a mess. You're going for clarity. That's really hard for us, because we are in it.
Easier to see out here. Easier to hear. No assumptions. Just more clarity.
Even as our hearts are in there with you.
Use your awareness of the enmeshment to help guide you. Seeing where you project helps immensely to clarify. What pushes your buttons (that she does) is in you. Which feeds your upset, raises your emotional level. This is great to know and understand.
You feel the urge, feel compelled to rectify, correct, refute. What that urge is telling you, in part, is that you aren't acknowledging your stuff as your own. It's hers, in you. So hand it back. Repeat it back. "You're sorry for calling me names." "You're saying you're feeling upset." Simple stuff.
Hand it back. That way, you'll hand what is yours back to you, too. "I'm really reactive right now. I'll email you." Hang up.
All of that is respectful. Honest. Accepting.
Not approving.
When we really work hard to get someone else to act differently, we don't see we're not making different choices. We're doing that dance. Bustor, you so know that dance. Where you think she's not clear, so you clarify, then she blames, and you are flooded with frustration.
Each going for control...eyes on the other...not their own boundaries.
There is relief, freedom, that letting go of what isn't yours (never was) isn't moving on...it's moving into your own power and limits. Stops the dance because you stop dancing those same steps. Takes practice. You've been practicing. You're not back at square one.
You're at a new level.
She misperceives for a reason...and it's her own. No control over that, Bustor. Even though you really, deeply, truly want to have that control to fix this for her benefit, yours, the kids and the marriage.
If only she would/wouldn't...
Know that if only is another fantasy word for wishing...when we hurt, we heart it, reach for it, dwell in it...false comfort, part of the worn out dance.
If only I had the words, the tone, the clarity, I could...
Can you hear that? Part of the ramp to where you launch is paved with..."If only she hadn't, I wouldn't have..." and in her head, "If only he would have, I wouldn't have said..."
Keep practicing your habit of respect...everywhere. Even with the television, here on MA, with your kids and FOO (family of origin). Practicing your new habit...you hear a news report with an interview...you hear DJs...repeat back, aloud...notice, note. Practice. Hear it in music on the radio, see it on the road. It's there. I know God brings us what we need, when we need it.
About the phone and your number. She's not calling right now. She's not leaving you three voicemails and four texts in a row. When she's out of control...consider it. Yes, you tell her your boundary enforcement if she continues. Do it by email or text, 'k?
I'm asking you to think up progressive enforcements...don't have to be mine. Brainstorm with yourself. You're a smart, creative guy. Might not feel like it when you're spinning...you remain smart, creative.
Stating what you'll do if she continues to cross your boundary is respectful. She's not crossing it right now. You're not spinning right now, either. So you sit and consider, brainstorm and map out your predetermined enforcements.
You're no hypocrite. You will do and say things, and not do and not say things, which are contrary to what you really want, when you're reactive. First boundary of respect is to act, not react. Put those enforcements around yourself...when you are reactive, you don't get to interact until you settle yourself. Clear your mind. State, "I'm reactive right now" out loud.
Your choices...not telling you what you have to do...no have to's...what you require of yourself, set up for yourself to follow, not to get anyone else to act differently...
you do so from love, acceptance, your highest wants...and who you really are. Whole thing is not to be done perfectly...to achieve perfection. It's to live aligned with your self, truly alive. Really tough to do when your whole self feels torn apart because your spouse is now separate from you. Best time can be the toughest times.
Sometimes the only time possible.
You chose the perspective of your kids hearing her talk to you like that. Would you consider that as a signal to yourself, that your real want is to be able to rely on yourself, with your kids present, to speak to her in the way you'd be proud for them to witness?
LA _________________________ The Paradoxical Commandments
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain
MALovingAnyway@gmail.com
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#77542 - 03/05/11 01:35 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 @believer, thanks for detachment pointer. helpful for trying to get myself more detached again
@la, yes, I will keep doing and doing better each day. Continue process of respecting and being honest to myself and my boundaries, while respecting that my W is her own person, who can make her own choices and manage her own feelings and filters.
_________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#77543 - 03/05/11 01:37 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Lil update:
W has txt'ed me a few times about kid-related stuff over last couple of days. She tried calling me once at the beginning of one of the txting volley, I was away from phone when she called and when I came back she was txting, so I just txted in response.
One reason for her contacting me is that Our D5 is starting to have anxiety problems at school. Her teacher emailed us some concerns about them. D5 is already in play therapy. Some of the anxiety issues are related to eating issues (D5 feeling pressured by aides to finish her food, D9 actually went through similar issues at the same school and with the same aides, I ended up asking her teacher to ask the aides to lay off D and told D that I just wanted her to do the best job she could eating thesame way she does at home [she is finicky normally]).
A separate set of anxiety issues seem to be related to separation anxiety (talking about being afraid of being left behind in classroom or on way to bathroom or on playground, etc.) that has re-emerged with the separation sitch.
And then some of them are sort of compulsive, almost OCD-like behaviors she has developed about sorting things,wanting to have things arranged in a certain way, not wanting people to disrupt the way she has her stuff. I think she does this stuff more at W's apt and at school and a bit less here at home. My sense on this is that it may be her way to try to maintain order and keep a sense of control in an environment that she feels is out of control and chaotic to her.
W asked if I would send an email to teacher re: how I had handled the eating thing previously with D9. I said of course and wrote an email to teacher about those issues and my view on where the anxiety might be coming from (the above two ideas about separation anxiety and trying to gain sense of control in out of control sitch) and also described some of the other things I do with D5 here to try to help her learn to manage and overcome her own anxiety, rather than let it control her (and get worse in the process) and also to help her have a sense of control (choices, etc.). I also wrote that I always tried to stay very calm and non-reactive when D5 was anxious and it seemed to help D5 when I was that way. I Cc:ed it to W also.
I also talked to D5 about her feelings and had her brainstorm about ways she could handle difft situations at school that had made her anxious (besides avoiding).
W txt'ed me the next day thanking me so much for sending the email to the teacher and to her, that she felt alot better after it. She also said she tried to stay extra calm the next morning she had D5 and it seemed to help alot. I talked to D5 and she said her teacher talked to the aides and the aid that usually hassled her did not hassle her that day and lunch went alot better. Hopefully, I can help D5 get through this.
Wed night I went on a nice run with my running group and then drug my sweaty self to an alumni viewing party (we won!) that was followed by bowling with another alumni group. I won the bowling tournament (LOL!) and got a bobble head bowler trophy, free t-shirt from the bar and tix for a couple of rounds of free games. It was a real fun time. Met new people.
Yesterday had a good work day and again today. Took girls to BBQ for dinner last night, and tonight I made them some fish and chicken masala. They seemed to like the tilapia. They are snoozing away. We will go to ballet class in AM for little ones. D5 has a birthday party to attend around 2 pm tomorrow and I will take D9 to some 4th grade social playground activity while D5 is at her bday party.
Edited by bustorama (03/05/11 02:11 AM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#77585 - 03/05/11 10:49 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] catperson Member
Registered: 08/31/10 Posts: 7915 Look at how amazing you are looking to everyone. Patience.
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Yesterday, we did dance classes in am for D3 and D5 (ballet, tap, jazz). Then D5's friend had birthday party. Turned out it was a "stay" rather than "drop off" party, so I stayed there with my other D's. My D9 said she didn't want to go to the 4th grade play day anyway (she's not very sporty). There were some younger sibs for D3 to play with and D9 hung out and and enjoyed the snacks/cake. At both dance and b-day party, I talked with the other moms and dads. Pretty fun time.
Came home, had dinner and watched part of some movie called Impy...and something. We are gonna finish it tonight. All 3 of the girls were cuddled up on my bed watching it with each other. D9 actually set it up, very cute. She even decided to read bedtime stories to the two little ones. Such a good big sister. I watched my alma mater lose in basketball (boooo, means I lost a bet to a friend and owe him a free night out). On bright side, I helped same friend find a new home for his cat, hehe.
This AM, we went to church -- ran into my friend from the running group there, then went to swim lessons for two little ones, then changed and went to Costco for lunch and shopping. Just got back, I need to unload everything. I'm kinda tired. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 On W front, she had txt'ed yesterday AM to talk to girls. I dialed for girls and they talked to her. Some kind of dropped call while D3 was talking to her. I dialed back and handed it to D3 and thought she was talking to W, but I guess she was talking to answering machine but awhile later, W texted that she had been disconnected from D3 and had tried to call but "there was no answer" I think maybe D3 was talking to machine when W's call waiting came through? Anyway, I dialed back one more time and handed to D3.
Later, W txt'ed asking how dance went. I said girls did well. Then she texted that it had broke her heart how D5 had said in morning that D5 had felt excluded and sad when D9 and D3 had been playing with each other. I txt'ed W explaining how I had handled the situation.
Then W responded saying she had liked the photography class she took that AM and was planning to take more. TXTed "The photographer said the lens you got me [for Xmas back in 2009] was really, really good and that I should give you a hug for getting it, LOL." I didn't respond to that one.
Later that day, W txt'ed asking me how the birthday party was, telling me she was hanging out with her gfriend and what they were doing. I txt'ed her saying the girls had fun at the birthday party and that it was a fun day with the other kids and parents.
This AM, W txt'ed me to say she hoped swimming went well and to tell the girls she loved them. Said she was going to get a facial with one of her girlfriends from a Groupon coupon she has (no response from me)
I have been responding if she asks a question that concerns the girls or comments on what I think is a relevant behavioral issue with the girls. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX That seems like an awful lot of texts about the girls, with most of them not really relating to anything important. If she wants to know what the girls are doing, whether they are having fun, etc, she can wait and ask the girls when they go back to her house. No reason for the two of you to be discussing that, right? _________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
Txt Set 1 - To talk to girls (I dialed W for girls - definitely appropriate)
Txt 2 - Asking about dance / D5 behavioral issue that D5 told W about during morning convo. (the latter issue seems appropriate to me given D5's ongoing emotional issues, the dance not important)
Txt 3 - Photography class/camera lens (I didn't respond)
Txt 4 - Asking about bday party for girls (I responded that they enjoyed bday party, in hindsight, this does seem on the excessive side to me since she talked to girls that AM and it's not really an important issue)
SUNDAY
Txt 1 - Swimming / tell girls I love them / getting facial with friend (no response from me)
She seems to be missing the girls. Not my responsibility.
One thing that is a little tricky about waiting to hear about the girls' day from the girls is they aren't very good historians at this age (as I'm sure you know CR). You can ask them how their day/weekend was and they might not remember anything. I remember never really knowing how D9's days were when she was going to daycare/preschool, for example. Missed out on that. But, maybe that's just the sad reality of putting your D9 in daycare/preschool (or the reality of not living as a married family -- you sort of miss out on half of your kids' lives).
If she wants to, I'm also fine with her talking to the girls about this stuff instead of me playing intermediary. I mean I could have the girls call her when she txt's me asking about the girls. But I don't want her txting every 6 hr throughout the day to talk to them. What are guidelines on stuff like this??? My ex-W and I have never had this issue with each other. When the other parent had D9, we just sort of accepted she was in good hands and well-cared for and would call to talk to her when she could be put on phone.
On the other hand, I also was told never to use the kids as pawns and information about kids should flow freely between parents, never be withheld when asked for, etc.
???? _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX We don't share info about the kids' daily lives unless the other parent needs to know (falls, illnesses, growth spurts, etc). We aren't living together anymore, and he doesn't get to be a vicarious full-time parent. If he wants to know what they do all the time, then he ought not to have left home. I actually talked about this with my IC last week - she said either way (limiting info or telling everything) is fine. _________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
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#78277 - 03/07/11 03:11 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: CajunRose] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 I never responded to today's txt message from W, instead dialed for D's to talk to W at end of day. Lazy night -- made some spaghetti and chicken apple sausage for dinner for us. We watched the end of that Impy movie tonight. Girls looked forward to it and were all cute and cuddled on my bed again. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#78359 - 03/07/11 10:27 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Has anyone seen Rango? Thumbs up? down? Reviews on rotten tomatoes look pretty good. Appropriate for young kids? (D5,D3?) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Nice 5 miler last night. Good work day yesterday and so far today. Taking D5 to play therapy later today and will mention about the anxiety issues that came up last week at school.
W emailed me that she registered D3 for preschool starting in July. I emailed back thanking her for doing that and asked a couple of questions related to it.
OK, question here -- I am getting the house painted. In terms of picking colors, I have a 3-color scheme that I've picked with the painter. The colors are very different from what the house is currently. I think it will look great and am excited for the changes.
Is there a reason to run the paint choices by wife since she is still part owner of house? "Since you also are part owner of the house I wanted to let you know I am having it painted and these are the colors I have chosen. If you have any questions or concerns about it, can you please let me know by such and such date?"
Or, alternatively, do I have no reason/duty to inform her -- regardless of ownership, she doesn't live here anymore and it's my home to decorate as I see fit?
Thanks for any input. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 10/12/10 Posts: 1218 Quote: she doesn't live here anymore and it's my home to decorate as I see fit
Yep _________________________ You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
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#79038 - 03/08/11 05:23 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] rob x Member
Registered: 11/12/10 Posts: 1383 Originally Posted By: bustorama ...Or, alternatively, do I have no reason/duty to inform her -- regardless of ownership, she doesn't live here anymore and it's my home to decorate as I see fit?
Thanks for any input.
I think you answered the question yourself, it's your home, paint it whatever color you like, she doesn't live there anymore, do what YOU want to do - it's ok, you're allowed to think this way with this decision and many other similar decisions you have to make, you're part owner of the house, full owner of your life, do what you want. _________________________ “Man’s proper stature is not one of mediocrity, failure, frustration, or defeat, but one of achievement, strength, and nobility. In short, man can and ought to be a hero.”
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#79161 - 03/08/11 10:05 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: rob x] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Excellent. Full steam ahead.
My D3 came down with a cold and double pink eye today. Got sent home from day care. My W picked her up and took her to Dr to get drops. I txt thanked her for doing this (I was with D5 at her play therapy appointment). Unfortunately, this required a kid exchange at my house. I asked W to txt me when she was at house so I could come out and get D3. D3 cried BLOODY MURDER about being separated from W. She was really going crazy screaming at the top of her lungs, MAMA MAMA MAMA. The worst ever I think. I stayed calm and tried to console her while carrying her back into the house.
She settled down after about 15 min. Then we had nice dinner (chicken flautas, Mexican tortilla soup, chicken pasta noodles, and pineapple -- yeah little random, hehe). Girls helped clean up the downstairs and are getting ready for bed now. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#79270 - 03/09/11 10:43 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] gr8 day 2b alive Member
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 1286 Loc: Brotherly Love Quote: She settled down after about 15 min. Then we had nice dinner (chicken flautas, Mexican tortilla soup, chicken pasta noodles, and pineapple -- yeah little random, hehe).
Your D3 ate this for dinner? dag.
my d6 is great eater, S3 is a picky one. His favorite veggies are Steak, Chicken. He's a meat-meat kinda guy. _________________________ Find a passion and pursue it.Fall in love.Dream Big.drink wine, eat good food and spend quality time with good friends.laugh everyday.tell stories. learn more. never give up. be grateful try new things be. happy. and above all, make every moment count.
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#79281 - 03/09/11 11:26 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: gr8 day 2b alive] CajunRose Member
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX You're both lucky. D5 won't eat beef. S1 won't eat poultry (except for chicken nuggets from Chick-fil-A). One will eat peanut butter; the other insists on ham and cheese sandwiches. The only foods they will both eat consistently are fruits, green peas, and carrots. Very frustrating. I hope they grow out of it.
_________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
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#79290 - 03/09/11 11:56 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: CajunRose] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Yeah, right now my D5 is my most finicky one. She would want Chicken Dino Bites every night if I let her D9 USED to be crazy finicky, but she finally grew out of it. Now she is getting more and more adventurous. She picked a lemon-lime breadcrumb crusted tilapia at the grocery store for us to take home the other day, haha. She also likes spicy black bean burgers (!!)
I still struggle with veggies for most of them, but have discovered that they will eat alot of veggies if I can smuggle them into soups. They are obsessed with soup now.
I keep trying different things til I find some miracle food they converge on. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#79293 - 03/09/11 11:59 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 W texted me this AM to let me know that she had just gotten out of Ash Wednesday mass, and there was an evening one I could go to if I wanted. That I could take the old palms from behind the crosses in the house to the service and leave them in the baskets there for collecting them.
D3's eyes are quite a bit better today with the antibiotic drops. I am staying home with her until 4 pm or so, then will go for run/gym, then meeting my work people for going away happy hour for one of my minions. _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 5058 Loc: TX You have minions? Cool wink
Very helpful of your W to run your religious life for you....Divorce is okay, but forgetting to go to mass on a holy day is bad? _________________________ D6, S2
I didn't recover my marriage; I recovered me.
Separated Oct 2010 Divorced Jun 2011 New journey Nov 2011 with Night + D4
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#79295 - 03/09/11 12:10 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] gr8 day 2b alive Member
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 1286 Loc: Brotherly Love I hope my little guy grows out of the pickiness. I rename things to their likings, eg. Sweet and sour chicken is called chicken with candy sauce.
celery with peanut butter and raisens on it is called ants on a log.
It could be worse, my friends son, as a little boy, would only eat foods that were white. I was setting in the doctor's office three years ago and reeading an article in a parenting mag and read a story about the same thing. i thought it was my friends W who wrote into the mag. Too funny.
_________________________ Find a passion and pursue it.Fall in love.Dream Big.drink wine, eat good food and spend quality time with good friends.laugh everyday.tell stories. learn more. never give up. be grateful try new things be. happy. and above all, make every moment count.
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#79296 - 03/09/11 12:13 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: CajunRose] gr8 day 2b alive Member
Registered: 11/09/10 Posts: 1286 Loc: Brotherly Love Quote: Very helpful of your W to run your religious life for you....Divorce is okay, but forgetting to go to mass on a holy day is bad?
I was thinking the same thing! smirk It's A la Carte! scratch _________________________ Find a passion and pursue it.Fall in love.Dream Big.drink wine, eat good food and spend quality time with good friends.laugh everyday.tell stories. learn more. never give up. be grateful try new things be. happy. and above all, make every moment count.
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#79325 - 03/09/11 01:16 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: gr8 day 2b alive] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Yeah, re: the pickiness and the renaming foods, I just read an article confirming what most of us probably already know -- that Dora etc. "make the food taste better." My kids get super excited when I give them DORA labeled chicken noodle soup (from Campbell's) as opposed to when I give them the regular label chicken noodle soup. And they eat so much more, request it, say it's so much better than the regular one. (I mean that's part of the appeal of Happy Meals I think too, right? Heart shaped pancakes, etc. etc.)
I like the ants on a log, and chicken with candy sauce, hehe. Might make Blue's Clue's Steaks tonight.
I chuckled when I got the txt from W re: the Ash Wednesday Mass because of the irony you guys also saw. I think I'm more detached, since I didn't let it push my buttons one way or the other and tried not to get into her head to understand her motive behind sending it. (I am going to the noon one, btw, D9 was on camera crew this AM for a school TV show so we couldnt go to the AM one based on when she had to be at school)
Edited by bustorama (03/09/11 01:21 PM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
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#79663 - 03/10/11 12:05 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama] bustorama Member
Registered: 11/14/10 Posts: 356 Went to noon Ash Wednesday mass, then quick lunch out with girls. Dropped D5 and D9 back off at school, then quick kid exchange of D3 back to W at her apt, then picked up presents and going away card for minion, then quick 3 mile run, then going away party for minion at bar/grill.
Now headed to gym for quick lift.
Edited by bustorama (03/10/11 12:05 AM) _________________________ Me-40 W-36 D9, D5, D3 T-Since 12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
