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^^^^^Yup!

I was hoping you would read it Crimson.


My goal is to some day be the person my dog thinks I am
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Just finished reading your threads. Inspiring!!

Thanks for sharing Busto!!

Best!


Me- 34 W-33
S15 S10 S6
Married- 11 Together- 18
Bomb- 6-2011
WAW moves out- 8-2011

"Nothing in the Universe can stop you from letting go and starting over at anytime"- Guy Finley
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Hey Busto,

Wow I'm going to agree with some of the others that yours is the most inspirational story I've read on here. Thanks for sharing, I've printed two copies of your synopsis to go with the 37 steps as it is awe inspiring...

Thanks again and Congratulations!


me 38
W 30
T 3
M in 05/2010
Separated 08/2011
Stephchildren (all hers) SS17, SS12, SD8
I filed 8/27, she countered I filed response 9/5
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Thanks for sharing busto. I found this at the perfect time...


Me: 44
Bomb: 11/27/11
Divorced:6/12
Life goes on: 6/13


Dogs still like bacon...a lot.
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Busto,
You put in so much effort into saving your marriage the "right" way and I am really in awe of your strength. Your wife is a very lucky lady to have someone who cares as much as you to go through what you did. The length of time it took to get you there was not short and definitely was not easy and you persevered. That is very commendable in a day where society takes the easy road out and gives up. I am so impressed with how you handled yourself throughout your entire process. I just finished reading your entire thread today and it is quite amazing... Congratulations!


Me: 32 H: 32
M 9 yrs
#1 D7 #2 S5 #3 D2
Bomb 8/12/11
H moved out 8/14/11
PA started w/H & OW in 1/12 - found out 3/24/12
Got my own place 8/25/12
H & OW move in together 9/15/12
Still married.


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I just realized that my thread is missing several months of journaling I was doing in another forum, so I will be adding that here in case it is useful for others. Sorry the formatting may be a bit hard to follow.

Pinhead
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Interesting that both of our wives have recently apologized for not being better wives.

One thing you and I have talked about is when trust seems to be a huge issue (really, just fear of being hurt again), is pulling back the right approach? Is (what DB'ers call) the LRT the right technique? Or is giving more attention, more WoA, quality time, etc a better approach, once some of the WW's anger has subsided?
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#21937 - 11/15/10 02:26 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
gr8 day 2b alive
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Quote:
In parallel, I have worked on becoming more of a Rock to her emotions.


AWESOME! She wants to know you will be strong enough for her.
She said she's scared of coming back home, Nice job validating her feelings on this matter. She wants/needs to know things won't ever get back to the way they were.

Keep showing her a better you.
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#21955 - 11/15/10 02:45 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
bustorama
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Hehe, Pookie. re: Mariachi band. I've been watching your sitch and hoping things will regain traction and turn back around.

For you MA'ers, I got my balls busted pretty good on DB site because I went overboard being oversupplicating (offering footrubs, making parsley tea, etc. sometime in August). Posted a joke msg after that in which I got a Mariachi band to play her Candela and other stuff (FROM MY HEART!!!).

Anyways, W is in the midst of coping with the 'time of the month' -- she is very stressed about her work, her application for a new position, and some wedding-related obligations (her cousin's W is upcoming). I have validated and tried to be an ear and a cheerleader. I went to W's work with D's last Fri because they were not going to get to see each other otherwise. We all had lunch together (the Italian girl who took the order was kind of flirting with me while I was ordering -- 'you're a doctor, hmmmm??? mmmm, so young for a doctor, mmmmmmmmmmmm. Kind of awkward.) Anyways, lunch was fun, she introduced me to all her co-workers as "my husband," which actually surprised me because I have been introducing her to people simply as her name or even as my D's mom. D5 had a bunch of birthday parties this weekend, and I took her to store to pick out gifts and had her make the cards for the parties as an AoS for W.

Lunch was fun, then I coached D5's soccer practice (which W came to). Saturday, I coached D5's soccer game, then lunch at usual sushi place with whole fam, then we attended a birthday party of D5's friend together. W commented that I was being all social (when we first met I was social and sort of withdrew as I got depressed and into gaming). On way to drop W and D's off, I overpursued -- I started flirting with her, then we started talking about Vegas and I said something like it would be fun to take a trip to Vegas the whole crew in the spring or summer. She said that she felt a ball of anxiety, that she didn't want me to act like we were together, that she didn't know what she wanted. I backed off and thanked her for sharing her feelings with me, that I wanted her to feel free to tell me how she felt. When we got to her apartment, she kept asking me if I was going to join them the next day for another birthday party. I said smiling to her, you have fun with me, eh? And she said almost sheepishly, yeah, just not with pressure.

Sunday AM, ran for 70 min -- first run over an hour since I started back up. It went well and I'm surprisingly not sore today even though it was a hilly 70 min. I get out of shower and W is calling me asking about the party. She says she is on her way to pick me up (I hadn't ever asked to be picked up???). Good thing she called though because I was on my way to the wrong place and at the wrong time. W picks me up and teases me some. W is stressed some by D's behavior at party (Chuck E Cheese), but gets through it. I meet some of the other parents while there; overall, we end up having a good time.

On way back, I drive by a house to get W's opinion on paint job for the house (they have stonework similar to the house, and I am getting the house painted). W says she likes the one I have looked at as an example. She has been referring to the house more lately as the [street name] house and Our House instead of as Your House. She was calling it Our House alot when talking about the painting and new hardwood floors that I am looking into.

W laments over weekend about her low self-esteem; about feeling bloated, fat, and unattractive; and about feeling overwhelmed with work. I validate and listen, ask her how can I help. She mentions having to get bra and shoes for herself for wedding and not knowing how she will be able to do it with little D's. I offer to take D's so she can shop. She says she also wants to see D's and suggests instead that I go shopping with her. I say, yeah, we can have dinner afterwards. So, we're doing that later today.

She also wants me to go to her work on Wednesday to meet some more of her co-workers and to have lunch together (?????). All of this while insisting we are not a couple, while saying we probably will spend Christmas apart, and talking about something in January under the assumption that we will still be living apart in January.

In non-R news, my college buddy will be back in town again this week (for good). We're gonna go out Wed night, and I'll probably have him over to watch our alma mater's hoops game Tues night. My running is still going well, and I'm getting some of these home improvement projects off the ground with bids, etc. Window delivery/install has been delayed until Dec. 2 which is a minor chafe.

_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#21956 - 11/15/10 02:46 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Pinhead]
pookie69
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Originally Posted By: Pinhead
Interesting that both of our wives have recently apologized for not being better wives.


Do you know why they have done that?

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#21958 - 11/15/10 02:50 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Pinhead]
LovingAnyway
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Wowsers, Bustor...thank you so much for being here and posting!!!

You're doing exceptional work on yourself and it really shows.

Couple of things popped out at me...asking her what you can do now...when you know you're already doing a lot right now.

When she says she fears and you validate that she fears, share your fear, too...how you have made new boundaries for yourself, extraordinary precautions (no gaming, doing the steps, knowing that distraction was your mistress and the other EA's were fantasy)...repeat them as necessary. Let her fear. Don't fear choosing differently because you ARE different now.

Also, her unbecoming negative behavior was about you. See, you replaced her with other women...which really wiped her out of existence. That's the self-esteem, I think, that she's talking about. Sharing your stuff..."I have always found you beautiful and no FB pix is ever going to do you justice, IMO" would be great. If it's true.

smile

Her unbecoming behavior with the neighbors and perceived rejection was classic...it was about you. Her fear that you would flake from being this awesome husband and father...wishing she already had her trust rebuilt, skipped to a secure future...and not seeing where she was doing some of it herself, leaving her phone in the car, cutting off communication, if you will. She got that later, btw. Trust me. It's where her statement about wishing she'd been a better wife.

You're still in amends mode...center yourself there. You really get what you did, why you did it, and how and why you won't do it again. You see your D5's experience as a natural consequence to your past behavior. You did great validating her, so she shared with her mom, too. That's awesome.

Your shrug wasn't. It was awful. Stay assertive and honest. "D5 shared those same thoughts with me this morning. I would like us to talk about them together, in private, BW. When would be a good time?"

Laud your D5 for her honesty and bravery. For the information she brought to you...own your share, in private, for being part of the separation...you credit your BW's next to last final boundary enforcement for you being who you really are today...keep that going. This is a natural consequence, not a logical one imposed, really.

You're acting amends to yourself, too, along the way. You've yet to really grasp the depth of betrayal your BW has experienced, and experiences again as she tries to work through it, in light of seeing this amazing man who loves her in her present.

You both are getting closer to addressing some of the hardest stuff...recovery takes two years...you're not through it yet...though you have laid an incredible foundation for a new marriage with her.

Your BW feared separating from you and breaking the family apart. It was the boundary enforcement she required of herself and didn't take, again and again, justifying and lying to herself. Hearing the truth from her D5's mouth would be cumulative for all the things she told herself to justify not leaving you and your mistreatment of the marriage and your attacks.

I don't understand DB for the FWS (formerly wayward spouse)...because you weren't meeting her emotional needs pre-A, you were ignoring her, erasing her with distraction...so not being there, being dependable when she calls, focusing your attention on her when you converse and communicate seems manipulative to me.

You are repairing the damage through amends for not putting The Marriage first for years...help me to understand how not taking her call puts the marriage first now?

Also...would you consider planning 15 hours of undivided attention time with her per week? Where just the two of you get to play something together, take a drive, meet her EN for Conversation (which you've been doing great at), like you used to do when you first dated?

Then add the Family Commitment (FC) time to that amount...because you're exceptional at that, too! I loved you sharing "Hey, it's my first time here, too" with BW because that level of honesty is great. Fearless...even if you fear her response. Act fearless anyway.

LA
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#21965 - 11/15/10 02:58 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway]
catperson
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I was just going to suggest that, if she feels fat, etc., why not offer to exercise WITH her? Maybe take a dance class together, yoga class, go to gym together?

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#21973 - 11/15/10 03:07 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: pookie69]
Pinhead
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Originally Posted By: pookie69
Originally Posted By: Pinhead
Interesting that both of our wives have recently apologized for not being better wives.


Do you know why they have done that?



Mine was in response to a post I made on my FB wall. W sent me a private message. I have all this in my thread.
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#21976 - 11/15/10 03:10 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Pinhead]
bustorama
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Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: Pinhead
One thing you and I have talked about is when trust seems to be a huge issue (really, just fear of being hurt again), is pulling back the right approach? Is (what DB'ers call) the LRT the right technique?

Or is giving more attention, more WoA, quality time, etc a better approach, once some of the WW's anger has subsided?


Ya, like we talked about on alt, in early stages of my sitch (when her anger/hurt were so high), space was essential. In the last 2 months or so, I feel that the space hasn't facilitated the relationship, but it's hard to know since I don't know what is happening in her head. Like it's possible the space is allowing her time to process my changes, whereas if I was pursuing her I would just be seen as annoying and selfish, all bout my needs.

I'm curious to hear input on others re: benefits of continuing space/LRT/letting them go vs. the seemingly opposite pursuing, love bucket-filling approach when you are separated with no affair. It seems we have the two different camps here.
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W-36
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T-Since 12/2001
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She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#21984 - 11/15/10 03:21 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: pookie69]
bustorama
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Originally Posted By: pookie69
Originally Posted By: Pinhead
Interesting that both of our wives have recently apologized for not being better wives.


Do you know why they have done that?


In my case, she said it shortly after I explained my perspective on something. I said I was sorry in the past that I had withdrawn from her into gaming, that I had not understood what her anger meant, that I had interpreted it as her pushing me away, not wanting me, hating me. And that as I had learned more since our split, I realized that her anger was her way of expressing hurt or fear -- rejection of my behavior maybe, but not of me as a whole. That I was not used to that from my past R and hadn't been equipped to handle it. That now I not only can withstand it, but I understand it and see it as a key signal to tune into. I said I hope she is beginning to see that I can handle her emotions from our more recent interactions when she feels upset.

After I said that, she apologized.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#21999 - 11/15/10 03:50 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
catperson
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I always believe in apologizing. Even if just for helping to create a tense situation. It is truly an ice melter.

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#22007 - 11/15/10 04:03 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway]
bustorama
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Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Wowsers, Bustor...thank you so much for being here and posting!!!


And thanks for posting to my thread =)

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
When she says she fears and you validate that she fears, share your fear, too...how you have made new boundaries for yourself, extraordinary precautions (no gaming, doing the steps, knowing that distraction was your mistress and the other EA's were fantasy)...repeat them as necessary.


Ah yes. I had specified amends in a previous conversation back in September, but not as much in the most recent one. It's like I take the "new me" so much for granted now I kind of forget what the "old me" was like. I imagine W is "behind me" in some ways and still viewing me through the "old me" lens (that's the trust). Does specifying the amends/changes help? I think part of the DB dogma is not to point them out -- that pointing them out almost invalidates them and the WAS/BS has to recognize them on their own?? Is the MA view on amends/changes difft?

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Also, her unbecoming negative behavior was about you. See, you replaced her with other women...which really wiped her out of existence. That's the self-esteem, I think, that she's talking about. Sharing your stuff..."I have always found you beautiful and no FB pix is ever going to do you justice, IMO" would be great. If it's true.


Wow, I hadn't thought of it that way. OK, so this is a tricky one. When I give her WoA on her appearance (which I do), she gets offended if I give her too many (like if I tell her more than once or twice in a day how great she looks, she says stop, it bothers her). She also gets offended if it is at all sexual (e.g., saying she looks smoking hot as opposed to she looks amazing in sweater dresses). Keep doing it, just not overdoing it?

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
You're still in amends mode...center yourself there. You really get what you did, why you did it, and how and why you won't do it again. You see your D5's experience as a natural consequence to your past behavior. You did great validating her, so she shared with her mom, too. That's awesome.

Your shrug wasn't. It was awful. Stay assertive and honest. "D5 shared those same thoughts with me this morning. I would like us to talk about them together, in private, BW. When would be a good time?"


Yes, I see that. I tried to broach something with W actually before D5 had said something to her when we were at swim lessons earlier that day -- saying I wanted to talk to her about something D5 had said, but not while girls were there. Then fast-forward 2 hours and D5 said that at lunch. I see how I could have handled it better. I was so shocked at the time at the way she said it that it threw me for a loop. My shrug was bad not only in that it wasn't assertive and honest, but also in that it was ambiguous -- she could have interpreted it to mean any number of things, most of which I would not have meant to communicate.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
You're acting amends to yourself, too, along the way. You've yet to really grasp the depth of betrayal your BW has experienced, and experiences again as she tries to work through it, in light of seeing this amazing man who loves her in her present.


I try to remind myself of this reality to keep my faith, patience, self-work, and hope on track. As I acknowledge to my W when she challenges my validating her, 'You are right, I can't know all that you are feeling. I see that you are hurting, though, and I am sorry for hurting you."

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Your BW feared separating from you and breaking the family apart. It was the boundary enforcement she required of herself and didn't take, again and again, justifying and lying to herself. Hearing the truth from her D5's mouth would be cumulative for all the things she told herself to justify not leaving you and your mistreatment of the marriage and your attacks.


On the flip side, I have thanked her more than once for initiating this boundary enforcement. It was very strong of her and essential for our individual well-being and any hope of our M.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
I don't understand DB for the FWS (formerly wayward spouse)...because you weren't meeting her emotional needs pre-A, you were ignoring her, erasing her with distraction....You are repairing the damage through amends for not putting The Marriage first for years...help me to understand how not taking her call puts the marriage first now?


It seems counter-intuitive to me as well, but I was 'following' the DB LRT philosophy. You are suggesting the DB LRT philosophy may be misguided when we are FWS (either due to affair of other person or affair of neglect/distraction)? (READING PINHEAD?)

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Also...would you consider planning 15 hours of undivided attention time with her per week? Where just the two of you get to play something together, take a drive, meet her EN for Conversation (which you've been doing great at), like you used to do when you first dated?


I would DIE for this opportunity, but she doesn't seem to want this (at this time?). She has turned me down on dates/dinners, when I asked her on them (the most recent time I suggested we do something just the two of us was in early October). It's like having the kids there is almost a security blanket/wall for her. She even talks about no pressure, she still has 'the wall.' The closest thing she's agreed to is to do spin classes with me. It's also a little tricky getting the alone time because we don't have any family here and have never had a sitter (which undoubtedly didn't help our past intimacy...). How do you suggest approaching this without (over)pursuing her and driving her further into hiding?



_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#22009 - 11/15/10 04:08 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
catperson
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Figure out what things SHE is most interested in doing, and make them available for her - with YOU.

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#22014 - 11/15/10 04:11 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: catperson]
bustorama
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Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: catperson
I was just going to suggest that, if she feels fat, etc., why not offer to exercise WITH her? Maybe take a dance class together, yoga class, go to gym together?


Ya, this is a good idea I've done a bit of, but maybe I can see if it's more regular -- like maybe a 'standing' time to go spinning together. I offered yesterday to do some weights with her as a workout buddy, but she said no. She was quite down yesterday, though.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#22036 - 11/15/10 04:31 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
pookie69
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Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 6390
Originally Posted By: bustorama
In my case, she said it shortly after I explained my perspective on something. I said I was sorry in the past that I had withdrawn from her into gaming, that I had not understood what her anger meant, that I had interpreted it as her pushing me away, not wanting me, hating me. And that as I had learned more since our split, I realized that her anger was her way of expressing hurt or fear -- rejection of my behavior maybe, but not of me as a whole. That I was not used to that from my past R and hadn't been equipped to handle it. That now I not only can withstand it, but I understand it and see it as a key signal to tune into. I said I hope she is beginning to see that I can handle her emotions from our more recent interactions when she feels upset.

After I said that, she apologized.


She apologized for what though? Not understanding of you neglecting her?

You did the right thing for apologizing for your shortcomings.

Her apology was nothing else but her acceptance of yours.

Not that it is bad at all, but different. She felt guilty for making you feel bad about yourself.

Now that it's done don't say it again. You've said it and she heard you.

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"A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand

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#22103 - 11/15/10 06:06 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: pookie69]
kimmie lee
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I think you're doing good, Busto. Fabulous, even!

Keep up the good work.
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It sits looking
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and then moves on....C. Sandburg


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GOLLY!!

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#22123 - 11/15/10 06:49 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
LovingAnyway
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Restating your goal, which part of your amends, isn't invalidating them. Saying "I'm sorry you feel what you feel, think what you think" now that's invalidating.

Really understanding that amends are constant actions, anyway, why not state them as they occur to you. "Yes, you're correct. I did do that. Here's why I did (the stinkin' thinkin'), and how and why I won't do that again." Doesn't changer her fear...restates your boundary around yourself, recommits to yourself. With her present.

That's my experience. When it comes to infidelity, repeating your continuing remorse isn't like saying, "I'm saying this again to sooth you". It's bringing yourself into awareness in the present, acknowledging that her distrust is real and you're still earning half of her trust back. It's affirming it's ongoing...not going to stop and slingshot back if she doesn't give you the right response.

This is a huge change in you...and you're right about the two lenses seeing differently. How do you even know you won't do the change back if you get her back?

Ornery, aren't I?

Your BW will recognize your changes on her own. She chooses to believe in them or not...it's a choice. Over time. Years of damage to amend for...not just two things, done. Healing with her, addressing aloud with her your amends to self, too. Small bits, progressively...keeping the dialog open. That's all new you.

I don't think you're trying to educate her on your changes. That would be more what I think the DB WAS thing is...all lip service, no action.

Your patience, presence and awareness do the talking. Sharing how you wow yourself with your changes, your experience of you, is an act of intimacy, not education.

Unless you share to get her to think/feel/respond in some way. What's your honest intent?

One sentence informing her of your perception of her isn't over doing it. Judging her actions won't get you married happily. You already know that. Still creeps in...see changes are ongoing, creating new habits from practice. You did great to put down the camera. She picks it up, it's about her. But yes, WoA in all ways...the way you love the way she is with the kids on Halloween; how much you like her voice...period. Real things, not blowing smoke. Realizations owned and shared.

You really get this...just read what you said about the shrug...YES, yes, oh, yes! What a shrug means to a man is not what a shrug means to a woman. You nailed it.

Can we venture into the "no kids discussion boundary" now? The importance of what D5 told you went to number one on the parenting chart right away. Your kids know about your A's, even if you think they don't...I knew as a child before I knew what A's were...we know. We know when Daddy acts like he does with Mommy, only not with Mommy...is wrong. We know when Daddy on the computer is happy and with Mommy and me isn't...we know we aren't as good as the computer, aren't as likable, even lovable.

Short informing statements is important...at swim practice, telling her D5 told you some of her thoughts which really upset you and you'd like to tell your wife about them, leaves that open to her action...no broadsiding.

You only do your part, your half. She has hers. I think the wake up call from D5 is wonderful. Kids don't like divorce, they don't like their lives split and they don't understand love ending...and they fear their parents' love ending for them.

That's all in reverse order, I think. smile

Talking about it gives them information instead of guesses...they are emotional radars for you guys...they feel what you feel, see more than you think they see, know more than you give them credit for...because they have been you.

They have...mommy and me are one. So is daddy. Learning they are separate comes from age 2 to 8, sometimes beyond that when there is crisis...like their family splitting up. Honesty with your kids is really important. D5's bravery shows you that. Your answer to her was brilliant and a wonderful act for love. "Right now, this is scary and the way it is...not forever. We're working on it."

That's what I heard.

Originally Posted By: bustorama
'You are right, I can't know all that you are feeling. I see that you are hurting, though, and I am sorry for hurting you."


I just don't think it gets any better than this. You are already doing the ongoing apologies. Tweak them next time...consider if you're really saying, "I can't feel your feelings. I sure can know then when you share. I know you're hurting and I am sorry for hurting you."

Her half is as important as yours...and you're doing great.

I'm so glad you've thanked her for choosing separation. Truly, what a man! When she shares with you her doubt about her choices, shore her up with this one...she made one of the hardest and best choices for the marriage and her family. You don't doubt her.

I confess I haven't read the LRT articles...nor most of them yet. I've allowed other choices to come ahead of that and I think I've about run through my justifications. I'll get on it so I can really share knowledgeably about them. I have longed believe the 180 saves marriages from codependency destruction and I used the list myself during my DH's affair. I didn't come by it from reading a book or the DB website though. It's often published on MB in posts.

I will say that saving your marriage is counter intuitive...because at our core, if it will cause us pain, don't do it is at play. Everything about knowing you'll hurt for awhile and doing it anyway can seem counter intuitive.

What I hold you accountable for is following a plan blindly...just as trust in marriage that is blind trust isn't real, so following a plan which doesn't resonate within you, confirm something you already know...because you're the expert on your marriage. You really are...you've lived it. The good, bad and the ugly parts. Bustor...you decided to become self-honest, intensely so. To me, you taking your new self-honesty and reviewing (which you did, please continue to do) what you did and didn't do REALLY in your marriage is the key.

Along that line...owning that you decided to try different programs to manipulate your spouse back into the marriage is honest. It happens. Our crisis skills kick in and we'll do whatever it takes to get the outcome we want. That very line of reasoning, though, is what assures the destruction of the very thing you want most.

About spending the time...pursuing is not asking. It's demanding. Ask and let her turn you down. Ask her about spending more time together to experience your changes, rebuild trust, and help you to keep practicing your new boundaries.

Let her turn you down. She's not rejecting you. She's rejecting your offer that day.

Respect her wall and ask, anyway. Get creative...ask neighbors about forming a sitting coop, where you guys trade off sitting weekends, alternating, or even during the week. Takes about four families with kids around the same ages. You'll need that for your rebuilt marriage...because then you will need this away time 15 hours a week for the rest of your life, sir.

While you're working on that, get creative. Ask her for two hours of Scrabble after the kids are asleep. Another board game which has memories of you both enjoying. You can start smaller. You have younger children, so you can ask her if you can come over and rub her feet for 20 minutes and then leave.

Next foot rub, bring a couple of candles to light while you do it. Stick strictly to the 20 minutes...time it. Leave. Next time bring a cd of music and the candles. Then leave.

On altering days you can bring hot cocoa for ten minutes. And leave.

Meanwhile, use the UA time during swim meets, activities, to be present, next to her, doing what you're doing.

List her top Emotional Needs as you believe them to be. List your own, too, while you're at it.

Because you stick to your word, it's not over pursuit. Yes, you are pursuing your marriage. You are making amends for the thousands of hours you took away from her. Can't go back and give them back...ask now. Don't take her wall as rejection or her refusal. Your job is to offer and accept she chooses.

She may want to see if you react like the old Jay...where rejection made you ignore, withdraw, distract. That's okay. You're practicing a new habit...let her.

:"D

LA



_________________________
The Paradoxical Commandments

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain

MALovingAnyway@gmail.com

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#22210 - 11/15/10 10:07 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway]
SurvivalnAK
Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 59
Busto Man

This is Faith btw, your a smart guy. You know. smile

I'm here, on DB, and you know me on FB.

Just keep doing what you are doing Bro.

Are you going to post on both or here now?


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#22378 - 11/16/10 10:30 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: SurvivalnAK]
Pinhead
Member

Registered: 11/08/10
Posts: 627
I gotta say, that recommending foot rubs isn't an effective strategy...
_________________________
The best things in life aren't things.


Me-53
W-49
D22,D18,D15
T-Since-12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Piecing start-04/2011
Now-together
Thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 539
Likes: 11
B
Member
OP Offline
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Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Pinhead]
kimmie lee
Member

Registered: 11/08/10
Posts: 2738
Loc: SEATTLE, WA
Yikes!

Reeks of pursuing.
_________________________
THE FOG comes
on little cat feet.

It sits looking
over harbor and city
on silent haunches
and then moves on....C. Sandburg


GOSH!!
GOLLY!!

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#22658 - 11/16/10 05:34 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: kimmie lee]
catperson
Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 7915
Well I guess it depends on what you think your plan is. If you think the MB plan works, you would be offering foot rubs or other things that meet their ENs.

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#22852 - 11/17/10 01:00 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: SurvivalnAK]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: SurvivalnAK
Busto Man

This is Faith btw, your a smart guy. You know. smile

I'm here, on DB, and you know me on FB.

Just keep doing what you are doing Bro.

Are you going to post on both or here now?



Hey man, thanks for finding me here. I'll probably be posting here now. It was getting too surreal over on DB with the thread locks/edits/poofs.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#22864 - 11/17/10 02:06 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Really understanding that amends are constant actions, anyway, why not state them as they occur to you. "Yes, you're correct. I did do that. Here's why I did (the stinkin' thinkin'), and how and why I won't do that again." Doesn't changer her fear...restates your boundary around yourself, recommits to yourself. With her present.


Yeah, I try to do this, but I've definitely noticed that my W only seems to be in the mood to hear amends when SHE initiates talk related to the R (which isn't all that often). In the past, it has always seemed unwelcome when I initiated comment on an amends action I noticed myself doing (even if framed as you did above). She doesn't want to hear about it or asks me to stop -- she sees it as self-serving, pursuing, and pressure, I think.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
How do you even know you won't do the change back if you get her back?


Same way I know I won't stab myself and her in the eye with an ice pick. It may seem like a glib answer, but seeing her pain and feeling my pain leaves a pretty searing memory not to repeat the same mistakes. On top of that basic motivation, I've also built better self-esteem; better social support network; cultivated more ways to make myself happy; and maybe most importantly, developed better communication, listening, and empathizing skills. I'm also more in tune with her needs and family needs, instead of being self-absorbed primarily in my own.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Your BW will recognize your changes on her own. She chooses to believe in them or not...it's a choice. Over time.


See, this is where we are at a strange point. My wife seems to cognitively understand that I have changed. She describes me as "fixed." Despite this cognitive "recognition" though, she remains "broken and needs to fix herself." She says she is "scared of me." She also said she is scared, "that I will lash out at her at any second." She acknowledges that I have not lashed out at her AT ALL since we have been separated (almost 6 months).

I have NEVER physically touched her, and I am not a "lash out" type person (she has probably yelled at me 20x as much as I have ever yelled at her). I think her fear of me is somehow rooted in a post-traumatic stress reaction to her mom and to her first boyfriend, each of who abused her in some way. Since her first boyfriend, when anyone has emotionally hurt her, she has gone into total shutdown mode. In addition to shutdown, with me now, has come this "fear" aspect. She is working on the post-traumatic stress stuff in her IC now. She herself has said that I do not and for quite some time have not acted in a way that merits fear, yet she remains scared of me (and not just scared of me hurting her emotionally, actually SCARED of me). It's like a disconnect that she herself recognizes between her cognitive reality and her visceral feelings. Ideas?

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Your patience, presence and awareness do the talking.


What if my presence/sharing vis-a-vis R seems unwelcome? She has said before, for example, that 'we are not together', 'I don't want to work on us', 'since we split up', 'I don't want you to have expectations,' 'I'm not even sure if I still have any feelings for you anymore' etc. etc. Signs (to me) that my seeking intimacy (especially through talking) would be unwelcome and even selfish.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Can we venture into the "no kids discussion boundary" now? The importance of what D5 told you went to number one on the parenting chart right away. Your kids know about your A's, even if you think they don't...I knew as a child before I knew what A's were...we know. We know when Daddy acts like he does with Mommy, only not with Mommy...is wrong. We know when Daddy on the computer is happy and with Mommy and me isn't...we know we aren't as good as the computer, aren't as likable, even lovable.


I'm actually not sure if my 2 youngest kids have a clear sense of the A's or what is going on. Remember the EAs happened over 2 years ago (August 2008). One of them was 7 months old and the other one had just turned 3. In terms of the computer neglect, during the time that I was compulsively game playing, W was almost as compulsively FBing, so I think they perceived each of us as neglecting them, with each parent angry at the other. They do still see Mom as sad and sometimes angry at Dad now, but I think it confuses them because from their perspective, Dad isn't doing anything (now) to make her unhappy. If anything, they see Dad being nice to Mom and Mom being cold or angry to Dad. Early in our separation when W was still overtly angry at me, they would tell W not to be mean and yell at me, that I wasn't doing anything wrong.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Short informing statements is important...at swim practice, telling her D5 told you some of her thoughts which really upset you and you'd like to tell your wife about them, leaves that open to her action...no broadsiding.


Ya, I get this.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Kids don't like divorce, they don't like their lives split and they don't understand love ending...and they fear their parents' love ending for them.


Ya, I had more great cuddle time with D5 tonight. She is super loving with me now and all the time says how much she loves me, that I am the coolest, most awesome, etc. Dad. Definitely trying to be sure she feels my love through all this. I'm definitely "working on it." Not sure about W. I think she is still too hurt/scared and in turtle mode.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
What I hold you accountable for is following a plan blindly...


Agreed.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
To me, you taking your new self-honesty and reviewing (which you did, please continue to do) what you did and didn't do REALLY in your marriage is the key.


At the end of the day, it takes two to tango, and I feel like I am not leading this dance quite right. Still finding my partner not following. She doesn't even seem interested in the dance floor.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
About spending the time...pursuing is not asking. It's demanding. Ask and let her turn you down. Ask her about spending more time together to experience your changes, rebuild trust, and help you to keep practicing your new boundaries.


I suggested we hang out a bit without the kids last night, and she told me I was making her so anxious that she was going to have to take 4 ativan to sleep. Launched into the thing about being "scared of me" and so forth. Stove is still way too hot, I think?

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Because you stick to your word, it's not over pursuit. Yes, you are pursuing your marriage. You are making amends for the thousands of hours you took away from her. Can't go back and give them back...ask now. Don't take her wall as rejection or her refusal. Your job is to offer and accept she chooses.


But if her refusal (above) shows my offers to be THAT unwelcome, then any overtures on my part seem to be overpursuit, imposing and selfish, no?

I have gotten HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS, and will read that and inventory needs for if/when the stove cools down (or times that we do have together, even if with kids).

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
She may want to see if you react like the old Jay...where rejection made you ignore, withdraw, distract. That's okay. You're practicing a new habit...let her.


Who is Jay? I guess I did ok by not lashing out at her and by validating her fear when she told me I was scary.

_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#22868 - 11/17/10 02:13 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: catperson]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: catperson
Well I guess it depends on what you think your plan is. If you think the MB plan works, you would be offering foot rubs or other things that meet their ENs.


One thing I forgot to mention is that while my W and I were living together estranged until moveout (me on couch), in addition to some foot rubs, I gave her almost nightly back rubs while she was working on work at home (my thumbs and fingers got so strong). I even continued this AFTER she dropped the bomb that she was moving out right through the day that she moved out. And I even gave her some foot rubs and back rubs at her apartment after we had separated. It didn't seem to meet her EN's since she proceeded with initiating and maintaining the separation.

Sometimes to me it feels that she is immovable to both "space/pulling away" and to attempts to meet her emotional needs. She seems intent on protecting herself from being hurt again by keeping the emotional wall between us and by painting me as a fearful SATAN.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#22892 - 11/17/10 07:39 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
rob x
Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 1383
Painting you as a fearful SATAN but still enjoying foot and back rubs from you?!

Why are you meeting her emotional needs now?
She knows you're trying to get her back, bank on it.

So she's still pulling away even though she knows you're trying to meet her emotional needs, giving her space, giving her foot rubs, back rubs, and doing everything else to get her back.

So we know this much, this is reality in your situation.

Doing these things isn't working, she isn't home yet, she still considers you a fearful SATAN (who gives foot rubs).

So if doing those things isn't working,
do you continue doing them if you know they don't work?
_________________________
“Man’s proper stature is not one of mediocrity, failure, frustration, or defeat, but one of achievement, strength, and nobility. In short, man can and ought to be a hero.”

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#22994 - 11/17/10 10:30 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Pinhead]
Puppy Dog Tails
Member

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 1866
Originally Posted By: Pinhead
I gotta say, that recommending foot rubs isn't an effective strategy...



Just wanted to post an OBSERVATION. No empirical research to back it up, I'll just say that up front (TH, that's for you buddy wink ), but in six years of studying literally thousands of marriages in crisis, and counseling dozens of people individually, and in 20,000+ posts on the DB forum . . .

I have never seen a single sitch where the left-behind husband was giving foot rubs, and the wayward/walkaway wife returned to the marriage and they successfully reconciled.

In fact, there were two phrases at DB that were a bit of a running joke with us, and they were "cuddle" and "foot rubs" (another observation was that men who used the word "cuddle" with their wife usually weren't successful in leading the couple back from the D abyss).

Fwiw.

Puppy
_________________________
If you can't say anything nice, just say "baby ducks."

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#23021 - 11/17/10 10:53 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Puppy Dog Tails]
lowesd51
Member

Registered: 11/10/10
Posts: 48
Loc: Southern California
FWIW -

When FWW and I first started piecing she told me "I missed your back rubs"

Why? Because I refrained from giving her back rubs while separated. For the record, never was into foot rubs...potentially a man card revocable offense.

Now that we are piecing I do give her quickie neck/shoulder rubs while she is working on the computer, etc...builds physical intimacy.

Point is let her miss those things.

I know...what Robx and Puppy Dog tell you is counter-intuitive but it does work and worked in my sitch. Granted my sitch isn't all rosey and ideal YET...but W and I are working through our issues
_________________________
Continuing recovery :-)

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#23026 - 11/17/10 10:59 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: lowesd51]
Puppy Dog Tails
Member

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 1866

FTR, I haven't observed the same for back rubs, judiciously given.
_________________________
If you can't say anything nice, just say "baby ducks."

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#23028 - 11/17/10 11:01 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: rob x]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: rob x
Painting you as a fearful SATAN but still enjoying foot and back rubs from you?!


Heh, I stopped giving the foot and back rubs back in August.

Originally Posted By: rob x
Why are you meeting her emotional needs now?


The main emotional need I've been meeting is active listening/validation when initiated by her. I have been meeting it because it has seemed to "work" in getting her to see me in a better light than back in June/July/August. The problem is she has been a bit of Jekyll and Hyde in terms of connecting. Sometimes she talks about that she is trusting me more and more and calls me to talk/share/etc. Invites me to do things. Starts talking about reconciliation. Then (often at that time of the month), she goes into anxious, overstressed, shutdown mode and starts seeing me as the fearful SATAN. The only pattern I've been able to discern from my journals is that this happens around that time of the month for her. Sometimes it happened when I hadn't spoken to her in almost a week and wasn't answering her calls, other times when we had been in daily contact. It almost seems irrelevant what I've been doing and that it's more about her fighting her own demons (of trust?).

Originally Posted By: rob x
She knows you're trying to get her back, bank on it.


THIS is probably true. There have been times I have offered divorce, though, and one time I lost my cool and said I was done that I wanted a divorce. Both my pursuit of her and my demand for a divorce were greeted by her saying she needed to take ativan to sleep. (in other words, it seems to me that regardless of whether I try to meet some of her emotional needs vs. when I push her away/giving her space that she is still extremely anxious and not taking steps to come back?). It doesn't seem to be about me????

Originally Posted By: rob x
So we know this much, this is reality in your situation.

Doing these things isn't working, she isn't home yet, she still considers you a fearful SATAN (who gives foot rubs).


I guess my difficulty is it's only SOMETIMES that she says she views me as a fearful SATAN and other times she is busy calling me, inviting me to things, seeking to pull me to her, etc.

Note that I did do a fair amount of being unavailable, turning down invites, GALing in late September/October and the frequency of her calling me went down to almost never. She said something to me the other day about how she had been trying to call my sister and my sister hadn't been answering and said, "When people stop answering my calls or are unavailable to me, I just stop calling them." She doesn't seem to respond to being pushed away by pursuing, but rather, by shutting down more herself?? Almost seems like a self-preservation thing?

I'm not trying to be difficult, robx. I understand your philosophy well of not pursuing someone who is pulling away from you. In our sitch, it feels more like we are at a point not where she is pulling away anymore (most of the time), but where it is a stalemate/plateau of sorts. The fearful SATAN comes around once/month and the rest of the time she is initiating/seeking contact (but never to the point of coming home).
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#23032 - 11/17/10 11:05 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
pookie69
Member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 6390
Rubs don't mean jack $hit.

It's nothing but cake feeding. WAS knows you're still on the leash.

_________________________
"A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand

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#23088 - 11/17/10 12:12 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: pookie69]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
What do you DB'ers think of LA's point of view that I am not really a LBS but a Former WAS myself. That it doesnt make sense and is manipulative for me to be applying "pull-away" DB tactics to a situation in which I had affairs of emotion and of neglect?

_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#23112 - 11/17/10 12:45 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
Puppy Dog Tails
Member

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 1866
Originally Posted By: bustorama
What do you DB'ers think of LA's point of view that I am not really a LBS but a Former WAS myself. That it doesnt make sense and is manipulative for me to be applying "pull-away" DB tactics to a situation in which I had affairs of emotion and of neglect?



I would agree that the dynamics are somewhat more complex, and the roles more mingled, since you were a WAS yourself in the past. But I would still contend that that doesn't change what your CURRENT strategy and tactics should be. Bad behavior is bad behavior, and should be treated as such.

Now, that all being said, if you are "pulling away" to try and get some sort of reaction out of her, then you ARE being manipulative. You should be, not "pulling away," but CAUTIOUS, DETACHED and BUSY GALing ... because that's what "the new Busto" is all about these days. If you're NOT, then you need to get yourself there, ASAP.

Being wary of someone that's hurt you is a HEALTHY defense mechanism. It should be done for natural, healthy reasons, and not as a "tactic."

Puppy
_________________________
If you can't say anything nice, just say "baby ducks."

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#23189 - 11/17/10 01:28 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
Coach
Member

Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 1218
Quote:
That it doesnt make sense and is manipulative for me to be applying "pull-away" DB tactics to a situation in which I had affairs of emotion and of neglect


It's the opposite of that - you want to attract her back. be attractive, be her catnip, make her interested in you. she has to feel you confident enougth not to need her but still making her hot. make sense?
_________________________
You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.

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#23504 - 11/17/10 06:01 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Coach]
SurvivalnAK
Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 59
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
That it doesnt make sense and is manipulative for me to be applying "pull-away" DB tactics to a situation in which I had affairs of emotion and of neglect


It's the opposite of that - you want to attract her back. be attractive, be her catnip, make her interested in you. she has to feel you confident enougth not to need her but still making her hot. make sense?


I had to quote this awesome post AND enable Puppy's emoticon addiction by trying it for myself. highfive smirk

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#23527 - 11/17/10 06:31 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Coach]
catperson
Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 7915
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
That it doesnt make sense and is manipulative for me to be applying "pull-away" DB tactics to a situation in which I had affairs of emotion and of neglect


It's the opposite of that - you want to attract her back. be attractive, be her catnip, make her interested in you. she has to feel you confident enougth not to need her but still making her hot. make sense?
How do you attract her back if you she never sees you doing anything that might make her happy? She's WAW because she was either being hurt or ignored, or her needs weren't being met. Aside from adultery, there's little other reason to leave a marriage.

So...she sees you as a guy who hurt her or didn't care about her or didn't care to make her happy. How do you make her interested in you if you're still the same guy? If you don't admit that you contributed to her unhappiness and show her you're learning about it and fixing yourself.

She's just going to see you getting a life after she tells you she's hurting...how does that make her think that you'll make her life any better if she comes back?

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#23551 - 11/17/10 07:07 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: catperson]
Coach
Member

Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 1218
Quote:
How do you attract her back if you she never sees you doing anything that might make her happy?


You do attract her back. How do you get a cat to come to you?
_________________________
You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.

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#23618 - 11/17/10 09:50 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Coach]
catperson
Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 7915
You offer them food. Hard to do that if you're ignoring them.

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#23652 - 11/17/10 11:00 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: catperson]
Coach
Member

Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 1218
Why assume you are ignoring them? My cats are much more interested in numerous other things besides food. That's too obvious. Cats love to be ignored BTW.
_________________________
You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.

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#23658 - 11/17/10 11:10 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Coach]
Danf
Member

Registered: 10/17/10
Posts: 4320
Loc: WI
Coach, stop being coy. How do you attract a cat? Be catnip. Be confident. Be happy.

Really, how do you attract a cat? I tease mine with a string on a stick, but I don't think my W will jump for the string the way the cat does. How do you tease her when she seems not to care whatsoever?

I know R2C, read the art of seduction. My mom packed it last weekend and I can't find it.

I guess I am just dense. I can't decipher coach's riddles.
_________________________
Me45
D Final(sort of) 7/13/11

My life has been extraordinary, blessed and cursed at once.
(Billy Corgan - Smashing Pumpkins)

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#23677 - 11/18/10 12:01 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Coach]
catperson
Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 7915
Originally Posted By: Coach
Why assume you are ignoring them? My cats are much more interested in numerous other things besides food. That's too obvious. Cats love to be ignored BTW.
Isn't that your advice? To ignore your cheating spouse?

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#23788 - 11/18/10 08:05 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Danf]
Coach
Member

Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 1218
Quote:
I tease mine with a string on a stick


So if you start doing something the cat loves to do, the cat gets interested and comes to check out the action - attraction. What's her string? Playing with your kids, gardening, running a race, taking dance lessons, reading books, being a great listenener, hitting her LLs with no expectation, cologne, making her laugh.........

Get her interested in you. No pursuing. Cats love to hunt.

Quote:
How do you tease her when she seems not to care whatsoever?



you are being watched. when I call my cat she runs the other way with her tail in the air. it's when I turn and do something else she comes to me and jumps in my lap. stop thinking like a dog.
_________________________
You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.

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#24314 - 11/18/10 08:41 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Coach]
LovingAnyway
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I do understand your point of view, Puppy. With or without your experience with others.

What I don't get is how if you neglected to do non-verbal communication and care for years, even a decade or more, that then choosing those acts of love, without depending on the response consistently, for a month or two or even 8 or the rest of the marriage, is destructive?

Cake eating? A woman scorned, replaced by two others during her marriage, who is scared to death of being devastated again and again, is a walkaway spouse? She was betrayed, pre-A's and post-A's. Bustor really gets that. He wasn't born to betray and wreak horrible damage.

He was born to love. And he stopped acting from love past the first few years...life got in the way...felt controlled, demeaned and rejected...so that's what he did back...

It's a learned lifetime of how to manipulate to get what you want out of others...

and it's a total lie. Every time his wife wants to talk with him, that's connection. By phone, in person, at his home or her home, that's connection. Yes, she's going to reach out, tentatively, and then more assertively, and then pull back. Not just hormones...in reaction to whatever Bustor does, too.

Her eyes are on him...her Lizard is active every second she's awake sorting him from safe to dangerous, savior to devil, back and forth, for her survival. Why doesn't Bustor get to know her Lizard? His own? And stop swinging back and forth, and just stand still. Be. Her. Husband.

Respectful, loving, radically honest and considerate, equals?

Why can't the plan be to truly be who you are, act trustworthy consistently to rebuild his half of the trust he destroyed? Is not his own redemption for waking up to how much damage he did the biggest part of this?

So he can trust himself again?

Act from love and let the response go. Enjoy the heck out of her acts of love and connection, moment to moment, and stop trying.

Be Yoda. There is no try, Bustor. You do and don't do. That's it.

Humans do and don't do. Where they make their choices from defines who they are.

No one else.

If you want to be the fantastic husband, father, son, brother, man...then act from your own code, and hold yourself accountable to it. Don't move those lines back and forth. Keep them steady around you so you come to rely on yourself, your choices, from developing the habit of checking yourself first.

That's attractive. That gives you the signals inside yourself of happiness, a thriving, living joy that you are married to your wife, have been blessed with children who love you no matter what, and are an amazing human being.

LA
_________________________
The Paradoxical Commandments

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain

MALovingAnyway@gmail.com

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#24458 - 11/19/10 01:57 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway]
bustorama
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Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
First, I want to thank all of you for posting to my thread and offering both support and great food for thought.

I'm changing my short-term "plan" based on the exchanges. We'll see what happens over the next few weeks. Instead of "pulling away" like I have been doing, I am now going to engage my wife and see what happens (solution-oriented style). I am not going to do it in a supplicating, begging, please come back to me manner. We are not equals if I communicate that way, and I also imagine it is unattractive and pressuring/scary to her.

Instead, I will just be the best Busto I can be when talking to her -- the same way I have been when she has initiated contact. But now I also will be initiating some contact as well. I will listen to her, validate her, share with her, joke with her. Meet her verbal EN's and speak her LL. If it's clear she feels pressure when I call her or that she is getting turned off, then the new "plan" will be short-lived.

I started this yesterday by calling her during the day at work. This was the first time I have initiated ANY call to her in 6 months. She asked me why I was calling, and I said just to say hi and see how she was doing. She seemed sort of confused (LOL). We talked for about 20-25 min. I tell her I had good news I won a massage as being one of the biggest fundraisers so far in my race I'm training for. She says that's great! I tell her yeah, listen I know u've been having back aches lately and have had alot of stressful stuff going on at work, I'd really love it if you used it. At first she said I dunno, then she said ok, well then I want you to take this groupon float spa thing I got, will you try it? And I said sure sounds like fun, I'll tell you all about it after I do it.

Then she told me how she was stressed with some work stuff. I listened, asked her to tell me more about it, any way I could help? She said something about having to pick up some fruit and milk for the girls, she didn't have time. I said, I'd be happy to pick that up for you on my way to the movie with my bud. I can meet ya at the school. At first she said no, then I said look, you picked up that greeting card for our niece for the both of us this morning, I'd be more than happy to do this for you. She said yeah it would be nice for the girls not to have to drag them around to the stores. Then I said, yes that is nice for them; I want to be clear, though, I want to do this for YOU. She agreed.

I go to grocery store, she calls me, and I joke with her about something, then she says she wants to make herself a salad and could I get X, Y and Z for her to make one. I say definitely, see you in 5 min. Meet her at school, say hi to Ds. W looks great and I tell her so. She thanks me with lots of eye contact, I put groceries in car, and I head off to meet my bud for a few beers and Jackass 3D.

So today I call W in AM at going in to work time. Same sort of drill. Hi! She says hey what's up, what are you calling about? I say just calling to say hi and see how you are doing. W starts venting about tough morning she had getting Ds to school, how she decided to give D5 consequence of being tardy for misbehavior/dawdling. I validate her frustration with D5's behavior and tell her I agree she handled things spot on, great momming. She talked about some other work stuff/stress. I validate and empathize more. She asks me how the movie was and hanging out with my bud. I tell her some (but not too much to spoil the movie).

I call W again shortly after lunch (again just to say hi). I ask her opinion on gift for niece. She has to get off phone, but then she starts texting me shortly after that. We exchange some texts re: gift. I tell her I'm glad I talked to her cause her idea was better than my idea. She thanks me for mailing the gifts/cards for us. She says she is excited to pick up her new "librarian" style glasses (that she looks sexy in and that she had me help her pick out last week). I tell her awesome, they look great on you, can't wait to see you in them.

I call W again at night to let her know D2 is sick (poor D2) and to figure out how we'll handle day tomorrow. Ask her how she is doing. She starts talking more about her day. Vents some about how her BFF co-worker kept busting in on her while she was trying to work and wouldn't leave. And how she is stressed about her deadline for noon tomorrow. Tells me she had the final fitting for her bridesmaid dress today after the glasses pickup. I asked her if she was happy how it looked and she said yeah. I said I can't wait to see you in it, I bet you'll look beautiful (wedding is next week). She says thanks then talks about her acupuncture session that she just started and the new herbs they gave her. Asks me if I can look up the herbs for her, she said her therapist also suggested she have me look it up for her. I said I'd be happy to (just finished looking them up and sending her a msg about them).

Anyway, we'll see what happens with this switch from active avoidance to just communicating with her how seems natural over the next few weeks (but not talking about the relationship, just relating). My calling her is a 180 also not only from what I've been doing but from how things were pre-bomb (when I also never called her due to neglect).

_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#24460 - 11/19/10 02:05 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
catperson
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 7915
IDK. If my husband started paying attention to what I wanted, I have to say I'd be intrigued.


Me-53
W-49
D22,D18,D15
T-Since-12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Piecing start-04/2011
Now-together
Thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 539
Likes: 11
B
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Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: catperson]
So Inspired
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Registered: 11/18/10
Posts: 198
Hey Busto, good to see you here. I have no advice, I'm in no position to offer any. Just wanted to say hello.
_________________________
You will never leave where you are until you decide where you would rather be.

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#24914 - 11/19/10 04:45 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: So Inspired]
LovingAnyway
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Bustor,

How do you feel about your acts of love in your last post?

LA
_________________________
The Paradoxical Commandments

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain

MALovingAnyway@gmail.com

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#24996 - 11/19/10 06:55 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
How do you feel about your acts of love in your last post?


The acts themselves feel quite natural to me, and it feels great to act lovingly to her. I'd already been doing some of this in response to communications that my W initiated. My only concern is if she feels pressured from them or if the acts are unwelcome/unwanted. The parts that are newer are me calling her to see how she was doing/how her day was going. I like calling her and talking to her, hearing about her world and feelings, the same way I liked when I got to visit her at her work last week (had never done that since she returned to work).

My D2 was sick today, so I stayed home with her and took her to Dr's office. Texted W about how D2 was doing. W was finishing a big deadline for her job today. I congratulated her for finishing and said me and D2 would like to take her out to lunch to celebrate. W said yes, so we had lunch.

A little later, subject of Christmas came up. I told W that I wanted to book tickets today for me and the girls to go visit my family. I told her I would love it if she came. W told me she was not sure that she wanted to think about it. I said I understood from previous convo that she thought the might feel uncomfortable with other family members if we were still separated. I told her that if she decided to come, I'd do all I could to help her feel comfortable and protected and see that we have a blast. That there was a slice of pie with her name on it at this pie place we like to go to. W said she was afraid how certain family members would make her feel if we weren't back together yet. W said she didn't want me to get mad if she decided not to come. I said she was free to make whatever choice she wanted, I would not be angry, and the offer stands should she decide to come.

She has generally been pretty friendly to me today (other than the Christmas thing which in some ways I see as emblematic of the bigger theme of her not taking the BIG steps associated with reconciliation, just babier steps of sort of connecting). When arranging the lunch on texting, she wrote that "she really wanted to meet for lunch." I told her I liked a new shirt she was wearing, asked her where she got it and said she looked great in it. She thanked me for and accepted the compliment.

_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#24998 - 11/19/10 06:57 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
bustorama
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Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Oh when talking about her hesitancy about Christmas, W again talked about feeling anxious and scared, said her feelings weren't about who I was now and not even entirely about what I had done to her previously, but about things that happened to her in her past (meaning her parents and 1st boyfriend). That she couldn't control them and was still working on them.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#25009 - 11/19/10 07:21 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
LovingAnyway
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Bustor,

Can you trust your wife? Trust has two parts...the amount of trust you give and the other half is earned.

Has she betrayed your trust?

She can feel fear and uncertainty and act bravely, anyway. You know that because you can do that, too. You are doing that right now. You invited her. Respect she chooses.

What if you created and signed a post-nup? Where you lay out all you will give up to her instantly upon any further infidelity? Seriously. You are not going to change back. You feel really good about acting from love and letting the response go.

She can fear. You're great acknowledging her fear. Don't react to her fear or your own. State what you fear. Share with her how afraid you are of losing this beautiful family you both created and which she held together when you were beating on it through neglect and adultery. Tell her why you know you won't change back...won't seek distraction; you'll seek her. That you will hold yourself to telling her when you want to distract and close off, even during crisis, and that you will still choose her.

Your greatest desire is to be by her side as she heals herself from all that happened to her in the past. That's how you will help her heal. And you will provide her just compensation, for life, for what you did to her and the marriage through your betrayal.

And ask her if she'll consider standing by your side while you heal from all the wounds you inflicted on yourself; not a single one of them was justified. Really share this with her...because not a single wound you inflicted on her or the marriage was justified, either. You did them. They are done. You won't do them again because you will protect the marriage against any more justifications. You see them for the lies they were and won't allow them. You will protect her by protecting the marriage...so she will be protected even if you want to do some hurt to make her stop hurting you. You won't do that anymore.

You need her help to spot self-lies that slip past you. You need to lend her some of your bravery, pointing how just talking to you is brave, takes courage. New promises from new knowledge.

You are a family...you are married. Both of you. Doing things as a family is living in truth. Awkwardness, comfort zones are part of lies we tell ourselves from our fear, which is a feeling...living backwards. You will be her safe harbor, her mobile comfort zone, wherever you go, correct?

Tell her. You're okay she feels anxious and scared. You know those feelings really well...tell her how those are what you wanted to get rid of, get away from you, so you got away from yourself and distracted...put your feelings ahead of her. You know so you won't choose that again. You can feel anxious and scared and act from love, anyway.

LA
_________________________
The Paradoxical Commandments

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain

MALovingAnyway@gmail.com

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#25572 - 11/20/10 09:55 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Can you trust your wife? Has she betrayed your trust?


I trust her more now than I did shortly after she separated. Initially, I experienced her separating as a breach of our marriage and of my trust in her. I also did not trust the nature of her friendships with some guys shortly after the beginning of the separation and did not trust her or the guys. As we have gone along this process, your question has made me realize that I am regaining some of my own lost trust for her.

Speaking openly, I also have some trust issues of whether she really would like to mend things between us and mend our family or whether she is happy with the status quo and pays lips service to the idea of reconciliation from time to time because the status quo is a safe, cake eating landing for her (until something better comes along).

I also have trust issues if we reconcile about whether she will again withdraw affection and love as a tool or a punishment, as she did in the past, instead of communicating verbally about her angers, hurts, wants, and needs.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
What if you created and signed a post-nup?


I think she is much less concerned with any $$$ than with her emotional well-being. I can't promise to give her back a whole heart as recompense for further infidelity. At some point, that leap is at her end. I could promise to walk away a pauper if I breach again, and I think it would miss the mark.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
You feel really good about acting from love and letting the response go.


Ya, I act from love now, not out of expectation or manipulation.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Your greatest desire is to be by her side as she heals herself from all that happened to her in the past. That's how you will help her heal.


I'm starting to wonder if perhaps I am doing this already, but from the closest distance that feels safe to her right now??

[snip]
When *I* initiate talk about the R, it is quite anxiety-provoking to her. Fear, fear, fear. Pressure, pressure, pressure. When SHE initiates, that is when she is ready to listen. Wanting to hear. That is when I can share thoughts and commitments like those you suggest with her.

_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#25580 - 11/20/10 10:24 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
So, last night, had end of season soccer party for my D5's team. Was fun to see the girls get their trophies and celebrate. W came and seemed a little agitated when she first arrived about where D2 would sit, and which food was which and who was going to drink what. I helped get D2 situated, tried help W feel at home and got her a glass of cab. Socialized some with Dads then went back to talk with W a bit. Flirted with her a little crudely (she said something about our D5's social calendar being more full than hers then I said I'd like to "fill her calendar"). Not very Cary Grantish, but dammit she looked irresistible, and the beer was talking. W was not pleased. I need to put a lid on this sort of stuff, though.

After soccer party, we went to get frozen yogurt next door with girls. Said bye. W called me at home a couple hours later while buzzed (drunk dialing?) after returning from her girl friend's house. Talked for 10-15 minutes about random funny stuff, so I guess my calendar line didn't do irreparable harm.

In AM, D5's soccer game was rained out, so she went to ballet instead. W met me and other D's there. She looked great, and I told her so. We talked and hung out while D5 danced. Went to toy store afterwards and D's picked out thing for birthday party and for themselves. Then we all went to lunch at BBQ place. I listened to my W's statement as a question (W: I think I would like some ribs, what are you thinking of getting? M: Let's get a full slab of ribs to share with slaw and beans on the side).

On way into BBQ place, W saw a hot yoga place so we went in and checked place out. W was excited about it, got me a schedule too, showed interest in my showing interest in it there and over lunch. I need to figure out a way for us to do this together sometime (tricky with the 3 D's).

W told me she had signed up early that day to spin in the AM at the gym. I asked her to sign me into the class to join her on her smartphone. (so we are spinning in AM -- this is easy for us to do cause the gym has drop-in daycare).

At some point in day, we were talking about a mutual couple friend's relationship that has been on the rocks in which I've given the H some advice to try to turn things around for the both of them. Their R is improving, but there are still some residual trust issues on his part and control issues on her part. When W and I talking about it, it almost was like we were indirectly talking about the same issues in our R. In finishing talking about it, I said I never will try to control you or anyone else again. I never wanted that. She said, I can never be with anyone who tries to control me.

W took D5 to bday party and dropped her off at house afterwards. I had pulled out some boxes of pictures she mentioned she wanted to scrapbook and gave them to her. Told her I had had fun with her today, and she said yeah, that was a really fun meal.

Hanging out now at home with D's. D9 has friend over that stayed for dinner, might spend night.

_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#25581 - 11/20/10 10:27 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Oh I forgot to mention, I booked tickets for me and D's to go visit my folks for Xmas. I emailed itinerary to W in AM. When she called me in AM (shortly after), I said oh by the way, I emailed you the dates that we are going to Xmas. W said, oh yeah thanks I got that. If I come, I won't be able to go for all the days because of work. I said, that's fine, if you decide to come, I will pick you up.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#25661 - 11/21/10 01:42 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
D9's friend spent night. Her folks and sibs came by for a bit and had a beer with them (well, not her sibs). W called at some point before they came over for no particular reason. Then txted later tonight to remind me about a shutterfly thing she wants us to do tomorrow for my mom. Said she'd see me tomorrow at spinning and we exchanged a couple random txts.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#25885 - 11/21/10 06:05 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
catperson
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 7915
Sounds like progress.

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#25912 - 11/21/10 06:54 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: catperson]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Went to spinning this AM. A little hectic getting out of house with 4 sleepy girls to motivate. Got there and W called to say she was running late. I managed to snag the last 2 spin cycles next to each other and set up our bikes with towels, water, etc. Txt'ed W that I'd hold off the masses. If she could get here, I had a bike and water with her name on it.

W arrives and is in stressed about computer issue that had scared her, she thought she had lost all these photos. I validated, omg. Tells me about how much she loved Superbad (what she watched last nite). I cracked a few lines of the movies to her. She comments how I used to say no dudes did spinning and look at all the guys that were there (she hated that I stopped taking care of myself before and opposed her attempts to try to get me out of my depressed, slothful mode). I said, yeah I sure was wrong and dumb back then. She said, well, you were just wrong. I said, "I was Mr. Wrong," and smiled at her. While spinning, W starts telling me about the ribs she started making this AM in her crockpot. I say, oh, I'm drooling. She invites me to come over with the girls and eat them in PM. She says we can eat them while we work on the photo collage for my mom. W says she is thinking about getting electrolysis. Says she wants to do it around her bikini line and love trail, so she won't have to worry about that for various reasons. I say yeah that sounds great, if she wants to do it she should go for it, that it also would be hot. W says she is trying to exercise more so she'll look good in her bridesmaid dress. I say I can't wait to see her in it, I bet she'll look awesome. W says she is stressed about all the stuff she needs to do today. I ask her to tell me about it. She does. I offer to pick up dresses for D's for upcoming wedding so she won't need to do to that.

When we finish, it's time for me to take Ds to swim lessons. W meets me there after getting cornbread and slaw to go with the ribs. We txt a bit while she's getting that. We watch Ds swim and she shows me some convos on her FB and tells me about her convo with a friend. Then W wants to have lunch all of us together, but says she is stressed she might not have enough time because she has to go to spa appt in 25 minutes. I say, I don't want you to feel stressed, want you to have time to get into relaxation mode so u can enjoy the spa. How about I'll take girls to lunch on way to pick up dresses and u can unwind a bit at ur apt before u head to spa? W seems grateful and says, yeah, says we can meet up after spa for the ribs.

So, me and D's had lunch at burger place. Got end of Jets ridiculous comeback there. Picked up dresses. Now back at home. Ribs in a bit.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#26054 - 11/22/10 03:02 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Rib night was interesting. Ribs were great. W was seeking compliments and assurance from me on various things, and I was giving happily. Told her the ribs were awesome (they came right off the bone, great from scratch sauce), recipe was a keeper, and I was looking forward to her making them for me again. She said yeah, they would be even better next time, did I really like them? Then W baked a banana bread with the girls. They were all so cute making it together. I offered help and did various AoS. W and I picked out pix together for book for my mom (for xmas present). W reciprocated by doing other things. I got a real sense of comfort from my W. She seems more comfortable with my telling her how great she looks or looked in picture than she used to.

I realized now something I hadn't realized before that alot of times when W is saying sorry she isn't helping with X because she is busy with Y, it seems she is actually seeking validation and affirmation for doing Y.

W talked about what a great weekend she had had. I said yeah mine had been good as well, I had enjoyed hanging out with her and the girls. W asked me if I could help her in the bedroom (she wanted me to help put on some sheets that are a nightmare to put on). I said, "Oh I can definitely help you in the bedroom." W displeased again. I keep self-sabotaging with this flirting.

She said something informative this time though (similar to what I've heard other WAS say) -- "is that what all this connecting and talking was about? Is that the only reason you came over here?" I said, I didn't mean for you to be uncomfortable. I was only flirting with you. She said I don't want to flirt with you right now. She had talked before about feeling like I viewed her as a sex object, and I guess she still feels/fears that my giving is coming with expectations (of sex), there's still distrust of my acts of love. That that's all I'm driven by. I need to lead to the point where SHE wants to initiate flirting, let her lead on that. There was a positive vibe going on up until I did that, though.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#26312 - 11/22/10 01:00 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
LovingAnyway
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What if W wasn't seeking compliments? What if she were listening to your honesty and wanting to really hear your thoughts? Sure can seem like fishing for compliments...if you think compliments really say anything about the other person, rather than the one giving them.

I'm celebrating your choice to show up, all your acts of love and your dedication to your marriage, Bustor. I don't think you blew it with the desire to flirt with humor.

Your response can be refined to speak more of your truth, though, instead of explaining it. You're spot on with the information she was giving you...your response affirming, validating and acknowledging it..."I hear you really fear me acting manipulative, only connecting and talking to get something out of you. I think I understand. I'm want real connection with you. I love talking and being with you. I now know I put my desire to hear you laugh ahead of you knowing you're loved. I got it. I will watch my temptation for humor and not give into it."

Her fear of you making her a sex object is hers. Don't take that on. You weren't insulting or wrong, Bustor. You were funny...and you got her distrust. You won't build it by responding with you wanting to control her feeling uncomfortable. You're not that powerful. Acknowledge her feeling uncomfortable for what it is...hers.

If she stated "That's all you're driven by, just getting sex" then say "Ouch" if you don't have a statement to validate it as her chosen perspective. Gives you a minute to detect where the ouch is coming from...taking her statement as fact (even if she states it that way) or not. Leading is not controlling...Leading is speaking up about what is yours, what is hers and what is the marriage's.

She'll get there. You felt positive, happy, connected and pleasure from your own acts of love. Keep that going for you. She reacted how she reacted. Validate that, too.

Did ya get the troublesome sheets on?

LA
_________________________
The Paradoxical Commandments

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain

MALovingAnyway@gmail.com

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#26343 - 11/22/10 01:34 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
What if W wasn't seeking compliments? What if she were listening to your honesty and wanting to really hear your thoughts? Sure can seem like fishing for compliments...if you think compliments really say anything about the other person, rather than the one giving them.


Ya, I put it poorly. The simpler explanation is yours -- that she cares what I think/feel about her, perhaps especially so because I didn't seem to before.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Your response can be refined to speak more of your truth, though, instead of explaining it...."I hear you really fear me acting manipulative, only connecting and talking to get something out of you....I want real connection with you. I love talking and being with you. I now know I put my desire to hear you laugh ahead of you knowing you're loved. I got it. I will watch my temptation for humor and not give into it. If she stated "That's all you're driven by, just getting sex" then say "Ouch" if you don't have a statement to validate it as her chosen perspective. Gives you a minute to detect where the ouch is coming from...taking her statement as fact (even if she states it that way) or not."


I see. I hinted at some of this by saying that she was not a sex object to me, that I saw her as so much more (I won't every deny I am attracted to her sexually). She had said something about me as seeing her as weak (I guess manipulable???), and I said I actually see you as one of the strongest women I know, especially for what you have done here in the separation (referring to initiating the separation and her working on herself). I see how what you wrote above is a better way of validating her feelings about my flirting without "owning" her feelings/reactions to my flirting.

She made it clear shortly after that she didn't want any more R talk, that ahe had had a great weekend and didnt want to ruin it, and I nodded and switched the subject to the bedsheets.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Did ya get the troublesome sheets on?


Ya, quite a struggle, but got 'em on.

_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#26537 - 11/22/10 06:01 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
I stayed home with D's today cause D2 is sick. Told W about it and arranged for her to come pick them up around 5:30 after she finished a project at work.

I called W mid-day. She said, hi what's up. I told her I was just calling to say hi, calling to see how she was doing. She said she was stressed about her project. I asked her a bit about that, anything I could help with? Then W asked about D2. I said well, she's still sick but seem to be doing better. Then W asked, "So what's the plan for later?"

I paused. It sounded like Catspeak to me.

My manbrain was thinking, you're coming to pick Ds up at 5:30, no?

Instead, I said, "What'd ya have in mind?"

She said, "I dunno, I'm kinda in the mood for sushi."

I said, "That sounds great, let's do Katana, and said to D5 who was standing next to me, we're gonna take mama to sushi after work to celebrate her finishing her deadline."

W and D5 seemed happy. Then W out of nowhere said, "I really had fun this weekend," as I was getting off phone.

W called a couple times in next 20 mins to get some help with computer issues with which I was able to help her.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#26541 - 11/22/10 06:11 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
Not2fun
Member

Registered: 09/06/10
Posts: 1388
Loc: Gateway to the West
NICELY handled!!!!!...... claps

Not2fun
_________________________
If you aren't being transparent, then you aren't being authentic. If you aren't being authentic, then you are being a hypocrite."

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#26616 - 11/22/10 09:17 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Not2fun]
LovingAnyway
Board of Directors
Treasurer
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Registered: 08/05/10
Posts: 2214
Super kudos...way to go, Bustor.

You rock.

LA
_________________________
The Paradoxical Commandments

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain

MALovingAnyway@gmail.com

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#26624 - 11/22/10 10:00 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway]
Coach
Member

Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 1218
Quote:
It sounded like Catspeak to me.



you have been trained well young SkyWalker.
_________________________
You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.

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#26813 - 11/23/10 09:18 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Coach]
pookie69
Member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 6390
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
It sounded like Catspeak to me.



you have been trained well young SkyWalker.




_________________________
"A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand

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#27296 - 11/23/10 04:47 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: pookie69]
LovingAnyway
Board of Directors
Treasurer
Member

Registered: 08/05/10
Posts: 2214
LOL for both Coach and Pookie's posts. smile

LA
_________________________
The Paradoxical Commandments

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain

MALovingAnyway@gmail.com

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#27368 - 11/23/10 06:39 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway]
kimmie lee
Member

Registered: 11/08/10
Posts: 2738
Loc: SEATTLE, WA
I head off to meet my bud for a few beers and Jackass 3D.

You are such a GUY!! :rofl:

God bless you!
_________________________
THE FOG comes
on little cat feet.

It sits looking
over harbor and city
on silent haunches
and then moves on....C. Sandburg


GOSH!!
GOLLY!!

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#34191 - 12/10/10 10:51 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: kimmie lee]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Well, I haven't posted in a bit over a couple of weeks. Sitch has taken a severe turn to the south. Let me summarize the series of events (some bad errors on my part, some things I think W's issues) that have brought the current predicament:

1) 11/22: At the "celebration" sushi dinner, D5 started acting up like crazy. W, agitated, said maybe the dinner was a bad idea with all the uproar from the kids. I did several things to try to help with D5. D5 keeps being disruptive. It seemed to me that D5 was acting out because W was giving all her attention to D2 and D5 was fighting for W's attention. I said in a calm voice, "Honey, I think she wants your attention." Wrong thing to say.

W started cursing me out in restaurant, got up with girls and asked for bill. I went outside and W followed me out cursing more. W ripping into me for questioning her parenting in front of D's and making it look to D5 that W was not giving her attention. I told her you are right, I am sorry I undercut your parenting, especially in front of the girls. Apology not accepted, super pissed. W says maybe we shouldn't have dinner together anymore until D2 gets older (wtf?????).

W says she wants my respect, not my love. I let her go back to her apartment. Later that night, I leave an I'm Sorry card on her doorstep with some things she likes (Red Vines and flavored water) saying some of the ways I respect her, including her parenting, and apologizing again for undercutting her in front of the girls.

2) 11/25: Full day at Legoland with W, kids and W's cousins and cousin's kids in town for other cousin's wedding. Tiring, but generally good. Afterwards, we have Thanksgiving meal with W's extended family in town for W's cousin's wedding. W seems tense and angry at me at outset, seems to blame me that we arrive late. Seems tense about all her family being there, I think she feels judged by them that we are separated; she feels that they perceive me as Mr. Perfect, Mr. Good Guy, she is Ms. Bad Guy. (she has said this several times) Not much positive couple interaction.

3) 11/26: W involved in lots of wedding prep stuff and also completing some mutual 4 am Black Friday shopping (stuff for girls), so I offer to help how I can. She asks me to pick up some stuff for her, which I do, including the bridesmaids' dresses and the bride's dress. Later also is day of rehearsal / rehearsal dinner. D's are flower girls in wedding, so we participate in both. W again seems agitated. Seating at dinner is a cluster-eff. W sits where she would be between cousin's wife and our D2, and I would be 3 seats away from W across from her cousin. W seems agitated by D2. I suggest alternate seating arrangement where W and I could sit together and I could help with D2. Would involve lots of shuffling. Kids get confused on how to shuffle. W gets more agitated and annoyed by the seating crap, angry at me. Finally gets sorted out. D2 and D5 start misbehaving. D2 won't get out of W's lap. W acting very annoyed/irritated, says she has horrible headache. I offer to help and eventually just take D2 and walk to restaurant bar with her. D2 still bored, so I go next door to drug store with D2 and pick up some Tylenol. Come back and give Tylenol to W. By this point, W is almost ignoring me. W's parents and siblings arrive. I talk to them. W later thanks me for Tylenol and "everything else."

4) 11/27: Day of wedding. Previous night I had told W's parents who were visiting in town that we should get together for brunch with girls so they all could hangout (I had girls overnight). W would have wedding prep stuff with bride at 10. I had thought W would start out with us for brunch and leave. I call W. She is super stressed because of time, seems sleep-deprived. Angry at me, saying I am putting time pressure on her. I don't understand that she in fact did not intend to go to the brunch at all. I ask her if she has spoken to her parents. W still angry, why am I stressing her out. I say ok I will call your parents. Cannot get through to parents. Call back asking for W's mom's cell phone. W agitated, yelling, LEAVE MY MOM ALONE. I told W I had promised her folks and the girls we would get together for brunch, please give me her number. Some drama about cars being shuffled. W starts hanging up on me. I call back tell W this is not working for me. I can't have her treat me like this. More spew from W, THIS is not working for me either, eventually get W's mom's number. I have brunch with girls, W's parents and BIL.

After brunch, go to mall with BIL and D's to pick up socks for D's, undershirts for me and BIL and a Spanx thing for W she had asked me to get. Pick them up. Drop Spanx off with W at wedding hotel with D's to prepare for flower girl stuff. She is in full alien mode, almost no eye contact, alien voice, angry.

Wedding: I arrive with BIL. Go to wedding prep room to see what I can help with. W gives me huge armloads of stuff to carry back to car. W starts pouring champagne down my throat asks me to take lots of pictures. I think oh maybe we will have good time tonight. I take stuff to car, then go back to ceremony in time to start taking pictures. Nice ceremony. Officiant talked about 3 key elements essential to long healthy marriages. Talked about owning your mistakes, forgiving your partner's mistakes, and adapting/changing. I looked at W for much of service, but almost no eye contact returned. She looked mostly at D's.

At some point in reception, W's uncle came and asked me about sitch with W, said he was surprised and concerned. I told him I appreciated his concern and hoped things would work out. I said I knew W's initiating the separation had been a hard thing for her to do, but had been a strong move on her part and the right thing to do at the time cause our previous relationship had been unhealthy. I said I knew it had been hard for W, she had been struggling with depression. All this later came back to haunt me because uncle apparently started calling W in days after wedding trying to convince her to work on M. Said single life was hard, I was a great guy. Also said he was concerned that she had been depressed. W FURIOUS at me about this conversation, said I was trying to turn her family against her and make her out to be crazy. I told her how sorry I was that uncle had called her and that I had not intended in any way to throw her under the bus. Admitted it was wrong of me to even go into this much detail about sitch with her family, asked her what she would prefer I tell them and she said just to thank them for their concern that it was a private matter. She was so mad at me for this she didn't talk to me for 3-4 days until explaining to me what she was mad about.

W and I danced a little bit. At first we were dancing mutually holding D2, then uncle came and held D2 so we could dance just with each other. She did NOT seem to like this one bit, seemed super nervous and uncomfortable with the dancing.

Near end of reception, I come up to W and D's near our table. She is texting someone and I walk up she turns screen and sort of hide phone so I can't see. Both of us had had a bit to drink. I say quietly it seems you are hiding your phone from me, who are you texting? (ugh). W says I was just checking what time it was and saw a txt from my GF [name]. Was just responding to her. I flailed on accusingly, well would you mind showing me that. W said yes, but not now, not here in the reception in front of my cousin [seated next to her, I think she thought her cousin was hearing the exchange and was embarrassed]. I said, ok fine, later, how about in the hallway. She says yes, but is very angry.

Shortly after (before any txts shown) she tells me I am drunk and cannot drive home. I said to her oh I'm actually ok (I had had 2-3 drinks all night). She says no you're not. Then I said, just because you are drunk does not mean everyone else is drunk. Then she pushed me real hard in anger and left the reception room in tears. More drama followed and eventually I arranged for BIL to drive all of us home.

When we get to W's apartment, she starts saying she needs the kids, acting as if I am keeping kids from her the whole wedding. I told her I was sorry. I had meant to be helping her, that I had taken the kids to try to help her out since she had had all the wedding activities to arrange too, and I thought that was what she had wanted since she had agreed to it and even suggested it. I said I thought I would take the kids that night since she had been drinking and so she could sleep in, but maybe she would prefer them. She says yes, can I help her get them ready for bed. I help get them ready. When I am leaving I accidentally let an ILY slip, and she says ILY too back.

W later told me that any trust I had gained from her over the last few months went out the window with my power play move with the texting. That I had killed all the trust with that.

Few hours after I get home, W calls me and says D5 is having a croup attack, she needs to go to the hospital and W cannot take her cause she had been drinking. I go over there and am a little out of it cause I am sleepy (3 am). W asks me what is wrong with me, am I drunk or something. I tell her I am sleepy. I stay at hospital til 6:30 am with D5 (she needed steroids). She is fine now. W thanked me for taking her when I come back.

Next day, we go to see Yo Gabba Gabba with W's cousins and kids. Before going to show, W is all irritable. Her mom comes over with BIL. W lashes out yelling at mom with script she usually targets at me. Stop trying to control me, nothing I do is ever good enough for you, etc. D's have fun at Yo Gabba Gabba, but W seems alien-like. On way there, W says she is done talking to everyone. Says she has had it, doesnt want to talk to family, friends, anyone. Just wants to be by herself.

W cancels our having dinner with her cousin and kiddos. Says she is just destroyed from the whole wedding week. On way to retrieve her car from wedding hotel, W starts lamenting about how miserable her life is, about her neglectful parents, her abusive first boyfriend, her bad relationships, me cheating on her, and D5 being mean and abusive to her. D5 then says from back seat, Mom, I am sad that you made a second home. W just buries her head in her hands saying what's next. I told her I was sorry she was feeling the way she way, I really was.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34192 - 12/10/10 11:14 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
believer
Member

Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 12109
Sounds to me like both you are your wife should stop drinking.....
_________________________
In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer..Albert Camus

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#34194 - 12/10/10 11:23 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
But wait there's more:

5) 11/28: W declares that she has deactivated FB. Says she has been spending too much time on there. Her account indeed is deactivated. Next day I notice it is reactivated. Also notice that all of my family members are banned from her account (and possibly other people). Not sure if she realizes I know how to tell if her account is active or not (she has my account blocked, but I know the link to her account and can view it when it is active from a dummy account). She has changed her profile pic a few times since reactivating it so she is definitely using it and not just a single login. I haven't asked her anything about FB, so it's possible that if I were to ask her about FB she would admit she is using it again.

6) 11/29: W tells me she has decided not to go to Houston for Christmas. I tell her I see and ask if she minds telling me why. she says because she would feel uncomfortable since we are separated, because of the sleeping arrangements and because in the past we always fought and had tension over Xmas. She tells D5 that same day and D5 starts REALLY misbehaving and telling W she hates her and other real mean stuff. W seems to blame me for it.

7) 12/3: W hardly called me week of 11/28 she later told me cause of fallout/anger from her uncle calling her about separation and cause of me asking to see the texting. Also said she needed space from me and everyone else after all the time together over wedding weekend. I think she told me this Friday night. I thanked her for opening up to me and sharing that with me. Told her I imagined the whole wedding week had been difficult for her, and I knew it was hard for her and also was brave of her to try to take a few of the steps towards me that she did (dancing). She thanked me for that and said yeah that I couldnt even imagine how hard the whole thing was. I apologized for the txt incident and re: overdisclosing to her uncle.

12/4: I have the girls. W had gone out previous night with her GF for her GF's birthday. W starts telling me how miserable the whole singles scene seemed. How pathetic the people seemed. How unappealing it all was. I said, yeah totally, did it make her think of working on us. W gets angry at me, says it makes her want to work on herself. Says she is just trying to share something with me and I personalize it and make it about us. That she can't even trust me to talk to me.

I totally lose my cool and go from that to saying, look, I see separation as a transitional thing, if we aren't working on reconciling, we should be working towards divorce. I do not want to stay like this and have you just going off on me any time I say something. W starts getting angrier. Says she doesnt want to think about it now with holidays and everything. I say, look there are two people involved here, and my timeline is now. She says something about being afraid what I will do to her in a divorce, if I will screw her over. I say if the only reason we are still married is because you are scared of getting and being divorced, then that makes me want out of this even more.

She calls me a couple of times during that day saying she can't talk about stuff like that anymore. It was too stressful for her. She goes to her company party by herself.

12/5: Sunday was the only pleasant day in this run. W txts and is friendly in AM. We talk and I apologize for being on crack in my response to her the previous day and in pushing her so hard. She tells me about her party and shows me some pics/videos. W feels gross about herself cause she is gaining weight and decides to start going to weight watchers. Txts me for us to meet and see Tangled 3D with girls after her movie. I meet her there, she brings snacks to smuggle in, I bring water. Fun at movie with girls. We had talked about getting trees for girls to decorate. Get tree and take back to W's apt. We decorate together. Fun for girls, pleasant night. W txts a bit after I leave.

12/6 Monday -- I called W at work asking a question about something with the house. W says about how much she hates the house, how it never felt like her house, how it always felt cold and unwelcome to her. Really getting worked up. Says she had told me she didnt want to hear or talk about the house. I say ok bye.

Apparently, W gets into monster fight with D5 over there after that (relayed later by both W and D5). D5 says she hates W and wants to be with me (playing us off each other). Next morning, W and D5 fought more. W calls me up on her way in to work and says she doesn't want me to call her anymore on nights that she has D5 because it just agitates W and it makes her fight with D5. I say I am sorry she feels that way, but I will respect her space.

So that's more or less where we are now. We exchanged tiny bit of txts yesterday and talked on phone maybe 5 minutes about girls. Today, I called her at work and said I know the last week or two has been real hard and crazy, and I want you to know that I am sorry if I have hurt you and if there is a time you want to talk about any of it, I'm happy to listen. W sort of gets teary on phone, and says ok. I also brought up the subject of a dinner groupon she had mentioned earlier in week asking if she was interested in doing that with girls and doing decorating at my place at some point. She said yeah, but couldnt talk about it now at work.

Called me back on her way home from work. She asked about doing Indian groupon tonight. I said I would love to, but tonight maybe not a good idea cause D9 was sick (she really is). W agreed. W talked to me about some stuff going on with her work for about 5-10 min. She said she was taking younger ones to gymnastics and dance tomorrow AM. I asked if I should come to that with D9. She said if you want. And I said, yeah, it would be fun.

So over a period of 2.5 weeks, ginormous slideback. My IC thinks alot of it may be related to the holiday/wedding/family tensions issues that arise from our sitch. Plus my bad mistakes re: asking about who she was txting to, the divorce "ultimatum" talk, the telling her she is drunk, the undercutting her mothering, and overdisclosing to her uncle.

Man, wtf is wrong with me.

Anyway, not sure now if I should just give her space and wait for her to warm back up to me or if I should be a little more active (but not smothering) about damage repair (or other?).


Edited by bustorama (12/10/10 11:32 PM)
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34196 - 12/10/10 11:27 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: believer
Sounds to me like both you are your wife should stop drinking.....


Agreed.

I think adding to this is the months of the limbo/separation are starting to take their emotional toll on my self-restraint. I really need to reset myself and do a better job at finding other avenues for my impatience and negative feelings.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010


Me-53
W-49
D22,D18,D15
T-Since-12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Piecing start-04/2011
Now-together
Thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 539
Likes: 11
B
Member
OP Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 539
Likes: 11
(Fortunately, I ended up not pursuing the SPYING strategy that some people were advocating below. I ultimately found out that my W was NOT in an A, despite what the circumstances appeared at the time).

Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
believer
Member

Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 12109
Drinking eases the pain, but is never a good solution. Feels good for a time, but the next morning, the problems are still there.

What could you do differently?

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#34200 - 12/10/10 11:40 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: believer
Drinking eases the pain, but is never a good solution. Feels good for a time, but the next morning, the problems are still there.

What could you do differently?


Thanks.

1) Get back into daily exercise

2) Take an extra second before I say stuff to make sure I don't respond impulsively or from emotion

3) Build time into day for gratitude/thankful lists to self-adjust mood

4) Review my remorse/regret lists to build back up patience/empathy for W

5) H-A-L-T myself (hungry, anger, lonely, tired). If I'm any of those 4, don't engage or at least avoid conflict conversations

6) Avoid selfish demands of W concerning R

7) Journal or post on here for support/venting

8) Do unrelated activity to distract my mind

9) Play more with D's. They always help lift my mood and I'm sure could use my love as well.

10) Call a friend or sis.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34202 - 12/10/10 11:58 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
believer
Member

Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 12109
Sounds like you have thought this out. My suggestion is to start working on your plan. It may be hard at first, but don't give up.

HALT sounds like something from AA. Have you ever been there?
_________________________
In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer..Albert Camus

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#34250 - 12/11/10 09:59 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
Gucci Loafer
Member

Registered: 11/28/10
Posts: 71
Quote:
What if my presence/sharing vis-a-vis R seems unwelcome? She has said before, for example, that 'we are not together', 'I don't want to work on us', 'since we split up', 'I don't want you to have expectations,' 'I'm not even sure if I still have any feelings for you anymore' etc. etc. Signs (to me) that my seeking intimacy (especially through talking) would be unwelcome and even selfish.



Chasing and pursuing a woman who says these types of things is nothing more than a waste of time. A total waste. How sad. Any man who chases, pursues or tries to keep winning a woman who says these things to him is destined for failure. She will NEVER come back UNTIL you can show her you have let her go for good.


You DO realize that there is another man in the picture here don't you? Or are you in denial like so many others? This is classic of what a woman does when there is another man involved.

Wake up Buster. What you are doing with footrubs, compliment after compliment, trying to be the best "validater" in the history of the world, and these other wimpy actions is NEVER and I mean NEVER going to get your wife back to loving you. These things actually TURN WOMEN OFF...

Get some backbone and show her you do NOT need this and will NOT chase a woman who SAYS she doesn't want you anymore. She is playing you like a fiddle.

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#34257 - 12/11/10 10:24 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: believer
Sounds like you have thought this out. My suggestion is to start working on your plan. It may be hard at first, but don't give up.

HALT sounds like something from AA. Have you ever been there?


Not sure where it's from originally. I picked it up from Coach.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34261 - 12/11/10 10:43 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Gucci Loafer]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Thanks for chiming in, Gucci. For the record, there have not been any footubs since August.

Originally Posted By: Gucci Loafer
You DO realize that there is another man in the picture here don't you? Or are you in denial like so many others? This is classic of what a woman does when there is another man involved.


I have tried and tried to see any concrete evidence of that in the present and have been unable to. It almost would be easier for me if I could find any because I would give the gucci/robx speech in a millisecond. I'm sure there is no PA. She has essentially no free time. When she doesn't have kids, she spends most of her free time working on caseload at home or depressed. She seems more to be in manhater mode (all men will betray you, every man in my life has betrayed me, men are so entitled -- they think they can hurt you and then you will come running back to them anyway, etc.).

Originally Posted By: Gucci Loafer
Quote:
She has said before that 'we are not together', 'I don't want to work on us', 'since we split up', 'I don't want you to have expectations,' 'I'm not even sure if I still have any feelings for you anymore' etc. etc. Signs (to me) that my seeking intimacy (especially through talking) would be unwelcome and even selfish.


Chasing and pursuing a woman who says these types of things is nothing more than a waste of time. A total waste. How sad. ....She will NEVER come back UNTIL you can show her you have let her go for good....Get some backbone and show her you do NOT need this and will NOT chase a woman who SAYS she doesn't want you anymore. She is playing you like a fiddle.


I am curious. Is ANYONE from the MB board aware of ANY people who repaired their marriage while separated or divorce-bound via "engaging/pursuing/love bucket-filling behaviors" as opposed to "moving on/setting them free" behaviors?

If so, could links to such success stories be posted?

I am aware of the successes with the "moving on" behaviors from DB. All of those that I am aware of, however, seem to involve affairs on the WW spouse's part or no affair. Rather than a past affair on the "LBS" (FWS) part, as in my case.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34263 - 12/11/10 10:46 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: bustorama
Thanks for chiming in, Gucci. For the record, there have not been any footubs since August.

[quote=Gucci Loafer] You DO realize that there is another man in the picture here don't you? Or are you in denial like so many others? This is classic of what a woman does when there is another man involved.


BTW, what do you see as the main evidences of other man in picture? I used to question the txt'ing / FB'ing, but every time I have been suspicious of her activity and managed to sneak a glance at what she is doing, she always is texting a GF.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34265 - 12/11/10 10:55 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
pookie69
Member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 6390
Originally Posted By: bustorama
BTW, what do you see as the main evidences of other man in picture? I used to question the txt'ing / FB'ing, but every time I have been suspicious of her activity and managed to sneak a glance at what she is doing, she always is texting a GF.


Maybe she moved to the other side. crazy

_________________________
"A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving." - Ayn Rand

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#34267 - 12/11/10 10:59 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: pookie69]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: pookie69
Originally Posted By: bustorama
BTW, what do you see as the main evidences of other man in picture? I used to question the txt'ing / FB'ing, but every time I have been suspicious of her activity and managed to sneak a glance at what she is doing, she always is texting a GF.


Maybe she moved to the other side. crazy



Hehe. During her manhating spew, she actually has pulled out the I JUST NEED TO BECOME A LESBIAN bit. I think it IS true that she is getting some of her emotional needs met by new GF's though.

_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34284 - 12/11/10 12:02 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
Gucci Loafer
Member

Registered: 11/28/10
Posts: 71
Quote:
BTW, what do you see as the main evidences of other man in picture? I used to question the txt'ing / FB'ing, but every time I have been suspicious of her activity and managed to sneak a glance at what she is doing, she always is texting a GF.



1) not wanting to work things out with you
2)moving out
3)going out with her gf..(the WS ALMOST ALWAYS uses their "friend or friends" as their cover... Almost ALWAYS..
4)not wanting sex with you/ getting mad when you flirt(this shows her heart is with someone else and she feels she is betraying him if she gives in to you)
5) over twenty five years of observing these things and seeing it over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

The gf is her cover. Bank on it. She knows you will fall for the gf excuses. (and YOU ARE falling for it)


Edited by Gucci Loafer (12/11/10 12:03 PM)
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#34296 - 12/11/10 12:48 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Gucci Loafer]
believer
Member

Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 12109
I see a couple of things in your thread that make me think there is another person -

She moved out
Doesn't want sex with you
Wants to be "friends"
Wants to work on herself
Confused about what she wants
Won't go out with you without the kids
Is "afraid" of you
Declined going to MC
Interested in electrolysis on bikini line (in DECEMBER????)
Angry when you are around her family
Your family is banned from her FB
Texting at wedding and then angry when you confronted her, using
the classic "Any trust gained is now destroyed"

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#34297 - 12/11/10 12:49 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer]
believer
Member

Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 12109
I can explain in more detail if needed...............

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#34326 - 12/11/10 02:30 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer]
believer
Member

Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 12109
And as to your question about men that have saved their marriage with MB, there are lots of them.

Mark posts here, 2long, Marcos and I'm sure there are more.

But the trick is to know what you are fighting. If there is an affair you need to know about it and expose it. Then you meet emotional needs with no lovebusting (angry outbursts, etc) for a short time.

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#34329 - 12/11/10 02:40 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer]
Gucci Loafer
Member

Registered: 11/28/10
Posts: 71
Quote:
Interested in electrolysis on bikini line (in DECEMBER????)


EXCELLENT observation.


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#34332 - 12/11/10 02:46 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Gucci Loafer]
catperson
Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 7915
Originally Posted By: Gucci Loafer
Quote:
BTW, what do you see as the main evidences of other man in picture? I used to question the txt'ing / FB'ing, but every time I have been suspicious of her activity and managed to sneak a glance at what she is doing, she always is texting a GF.



1) not wanting to work things out with you
2)moving out
3)going out with her gf..(the WS ALMOST ALWAYS uses their "friend or friends" as their cover... Almost ALWAYS..
4)not wanting sex with you/ getting mad when you flirt(this shows her heart is with someone else and she feels she is betraying him if she gives in to you)
5) over twenty five years of observing these things and seeing it over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

The gf is her cover. Bank on it. She knows you will fall for the gf excuses. (and YOU ARE falling for it)
I could see myself doing those things, and there's no way in hell I would ever have another guy in my life. OR a girl.

I just want to be alone, and be myself.

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#34333 - 12/11/10 02:51 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
Not2fun
Member

Registered: 09/06/10
Posts: 1388
Loc: Gateway to the West
Originally Posted By: bustorama
On way to retrieve her car from wedding hotel, W starts lamenting about how miserable her life is, about her neglectful parents, her abusive first boyfriend, her bad relationships, me cheating on her, and D5 being mean and abusive to her. D5 then says from back seat, Mom, I am sad that you made a second home. W just buries her head in her hands saying what's next. I told her I was sorry she was feeling the way she way, I really was.


Why did you say the part I highlighted?

(I'm a seriously asking this....)

Not2fun
_________________________
If you aren't being transparent, then you aren't being authentic. If you aren't being authentic, then you are being a hypocrite."

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#34365 - 12/11/10 04:50 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer]
SurvivalnAK
Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 59
Originally Posted By: believer
I see a couple of things in your thread that make me think there is another person -

She moved out
Doesn't want sex with you
Wants to be "friends"
Wants to work on herself
Confused about what she wants
Won't go out with you without the kids
Is "afraid" of you
Declined going to MC
Interested in electrolysis on bikini line (in DECEMBER????)
Angry when you are around her family
Your family is banned from her FB
Texting at wedding and then angry when you confronted her, using
the classic "Any trust gained is now destroyed"



Hi Busto,

I have to agree here.

You might want to up your investigative work and "verify".

My 2 reasons are 1) the texting incident and 2) her crap attitude towards you is getting out of hand. She either needs help or there is someone else(OW or OM).

Nobody that works as hard as you have deserves this treatment and it's called Emotional Abuse. This is and should be your N.U.T.

You backslid but not as bad as you think. She just wants to find fault and seems like she's waiting for you to screw up so she can verbally assault you. You have to end this crap behavior by any means necessary. Even if you have to pull the Robx speech now.

Validating and trying to meet her needs right now is NOT working. Abuse is not acceptable even if you can take it.

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#34366 - 12/11/10 04:52 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: believer
I see a couple of things in your thread that make me think there is another person -

She moved out
Doesn't want sex with you
Wants to be "friends"
Wants to work on herself
Confused about what she wants
Won't go out with you without the kids
Is "afraid" of you
Declined going to MC
Interested in electrolysis on bikini line (in DECEMBER????)
Angry when you are around her family
Your family is banned from her FB
Texting at wedding and then angry when you confronted her, using
the classic "Any trust gained is now destroyed"


See I go back and forth between thinking along the lines of you and Gucci vs. along the lines of Catperson. When I think how you guys think is when I do the confronting thing and when she responds with the great anger. But even that response, to me, seems ambiguous. Maybe to ask another way, how are the above INCOMPATIBLE with the I JUST WANT TO BE ALONE idea. Or is it just that I WANT TO BE ALONE is much rarer than a hidden A?

To naive me, all of the above are ambiguous between being with OM vs. wanting to be alone and just being pissed off to hell and scared of me. If there is an EA (or other type of affair going on), I would need better intel. She wants to get photoshop on her laptop and that might be an opportunity for me to install a keylogger and get to the bottom of this? Good idea vs. bad idea?
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34368 - 12/11/10 04:55 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Not2fun]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: Not2fun
Originally Posted By: bustorama
On way to retrieve her car from wedding hotel, W starts lamenting about how miserable her life is, about her neglectful parents, her abusive first boyfriend, her bad relationships, me cheating on her, and D5 being mean and abusive to her. D5 then says from back seat, Mom, I am sad that you made a second home. W just buries her head in her hands saying what's next. I told her I was sorry she was feeling the way she way, I really was.


Why did you say the part I highlighted?

(I'm a seriously asking this....)

Not2fun


Because I really am sorry she feels that way? If those are her feelings, they sound to me like it would suck to feel that way. (oh, I was saying it in response to her feelings, not in response to her "what's next" statement if that's what your question was about?)
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34373 - 12/11/10 05:13 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
believer
Member

Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 12109
I think you need to install a keylogger. Webwatch and Spectro are good. Put a GPS in her car.

This is war and you need to know the enemy.
_________________________
In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer..Albert Camus

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#34374 - 12/11/10 05:16 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: SurvivalnAK]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: SurvivalnAK
Originally Posted By: believer
I see a couple of things in your thread that make me think there is another person -

She moved out
Doesn't want sex with you
Wants to be "friends"
Wants to work on herself
Confused about what she wants
Won't go out with you without the kids
Is "afraid" of you
Declined going to MC
Interested in electrolysis on bikini line (in DECEMBER????)
Angry when you are around her family
Your family is banned from her FB
Texting at wedding and then angry when you confronted her, using
the classic "Any trust gained is now destroyed"


I have to agree here.

You might want to up your investigative work and "verify".


Would you be in favor of me installing a keylogger? I'm not sure how else to get other intel at this point. What are good keyloggers that can send info to me REMOTELY??

Originally Posted By: SurvivalnAK
My 2 reasons are 1) the texting incident and 2) her crap attitude towards you is getting out of hand. She either needs help or there is someone else(OW or OM).


The texting incident followed by the story about deactivating FB and THEN reactivating later with my family banned got my antennae up as well. Now that I think about the texting issue, I even said something at the outset of it like, "I don't get this. There must be someone else with how resistant you are being." The alternative is that it is a SOMETHING else (that I really did hurt her so bad that she is permanently done with me or some personal issue of hers from her past abuse that makes her anger long-standing and forgiveness unattainable that is resonating with our sitch).

Re: her CB, that is a long-standing core issue of hers. She has always engaged in CB, learned it at the hand of her mom. Yeah, I do not want to be in any R that has this level of CB, however. I should just walk away or refuse to participate in the relationship further if it keeps up.


_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34375 - 12/11/10 05:17 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
believer
Member

Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 12109
We posted at the same time. See my post above.

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#34376 - 12/11/10 05:17 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: believer
I think you need to install a keylogger. Webwatch and Spectro are good. Put a GPS in her car.

This is war and you need to know the enemy.


Can both of these send logs to remote addresses? (or how do they work).

For the GPS, similar question, how are they accessible?
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34379 - 12/11/10 05:27 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
From my read, it looks like Webwatcher allows remote monitoring, but Spectro does not. Is that accurate? If so, I'll probably go with Webwatcher. Do you guys have first hand experience with it? Is it AT ALL detectable? I'm totally hosed if she detects it and there is no evidence of A.

_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34380 - 12/11/10 05:29 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
believer
Member

Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 12109
Webwatcher and SpectroPro will show you everything your wife does online. I think they cost around $100.

A good GPS ($400.) will send the location of her car in real time - right to your computer.

I'm not good at technical stuff, just letting you know what others have done.


Me-53
W-49
D22,D18,D15
T-Since-12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Piecing start-04/2011
Now-together
Thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 539
Likes: 11
B
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Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
SurvivalnAK
Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 59
Originally Posted By: bustorama

Would you be in favor of me installing a keylogger?


Yes.

I believe there are more than enough signs here that you need to find out.


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#34384 - 12/11/10 05:40 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: SurvivalnAK]
believer
Member

Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 12109
If you can afford it, do it. And also the GPS.

Nothing like finding out the truth so that you can make good decisions. Then you can form your battle plan.

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#34386 - 12/11/10 05:43 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: SurvivalnAK]
SurvivalnAK
Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 59
I will also say that "snooping" does have an emotional effect on you as well. If you find something out, it's going to hurt and if you don't find anything you MIGHT feel guilty.

If you can pull it off knowing this then by all means do it.

However, the "Let them go" speech and delivery could work just as well and save yourself from the emotional roller coaster ride of knowing if there is someone else.

Think about it for a bit and way the pro's and con's for YOU. Ultimately, your goal right now is to work on reconciling, but if she is just outright disrespectful and punishing you for the past, then maybe she needs to FEEL what it's like to not have you around.

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#34387 - 12/11/10 05:47 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
This AM we met for D2's gymnastics class and D5's dance class. W rolled in with little ones 40 minutes late to the 1-hr gymnastics class (wtf?). She said they had had a slow morning getting out. W wanted to get her car taken in for oil and cleaned. I offered to help transfer crap from her cat to mine, but W suggested I play with kids instead since I wouldn't see them rest of day. So, she transferred crap. After gymnastics, I secured car seats and took D's to meet W at oil place.

W acted scared of me several times during morning. On arriving, "Is it ok that I was late, are you mad at me." (Nope, I'm just chilling here with D9). Later, I took W's Ipod Touch away from girls cause they were fighting over it in car and said I don't think the Ipod Touch is a good idea right now. W took it personally and said, "I'm sorry." I said, "Oh I wasn't saying you did anything wrong at all. I'm sorry if it came across that way." She still looked scared to me and I said, "I'm not mad at you, W. Really." At end of time together, D5 and D9 were fighting with each other and I was tired. W said, "Are you mad at me? It seems that you are mad at me." I said, "No, W. Thanks for telling me how you were feeling, but I am not mad at you in any way. I am tired of the girls misbehaving, but in no way am I mad at you." When she told me she had booked her ticket to go to Christmas in her hometown, "Are you mad at me?" I said, "I am disappointed, but I am not mad, and if that's what makes you happy, that's what I want as well." Then she said, "It doesn't make me happy, but it would make me more comfortable cause I think I would be EXTREMELY uncomfortable going to Xmas at your family's given the sitch." I said, "I get it, if that makes you more comfortable, I agree that's what you should do." I think some of this stuff is residual from her mom and that damn abusive boyfriend of hers interacting with my past irritability when we were together. (The alternative possibility is it is guilt/shame from a hidden A I guess). She seems to perceive anger from me all the time even when there is none there.

Overall, though, the time together was alot less tension-filled than the previous 2 weeks which was good for the Ds and for us. She showed me her groupons. She had bought me a groupon to do a bootcamp and suggested we work out together during the work day. She said she wished this place that she had bought a groupon for was open so we could go there for lunch. She also said she wanted to meet me at spinning tomorrow AM.

One interesting thing she said in regards to Christmas is after she said the thing about not coming cause of feeling uncomfortable there. She also said it was a "test" for herself to see how it was going through a holiday without the girls.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34389 - 12/11/10 06:04 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
OK, any idea of how long it takes to install webwatcher from purchase through download to completed install (like how much time would I need with the laptop?). Does it need lots of configuring? Or can I put it on the same CD as photoshop and install it at the same time?

I'll have a very limited amount of time in which to install.

Re: the snooping -- Faith, I think I would feel better knowing definitively if there was or wasn't something there, especially since it completely changes how I would act. You also may remember early on in our sitch (June/July) I suspected an EA and possible PA and confronted her on it, and I remember those feelings. If I knew definitively, the panzers would roll.
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34392 - 12/11/10 06:18 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
SurvivalnAK
Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 59
I remember it well friend.

You're in a good place mentally, so I know you can handle it and I by all means support you verifying.

If I had it to do all over again, I would verify in a heartbeat.

I really HOPE you find nothing.


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#34394 - 12/11/10 06:27 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: SurvivalnAK]
believer
Member

Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 12109
Try this one -

www.relytec.com

Sorry, don't know how to link - but this is free for 7 days.

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#34395 - 12/11/10 06:31 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer]
believer
Member

Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 12109
No limit on what it will allow you to see, read, or hear.

After 7 days it just stops working. Totally invisible as in, if you forget your password or don't write down the file path, you will NOT get back into it. It's that covert!!

Thousands of screen shots every day because it takes one EVERY time the mouse is clicked, the Enter key is hit, or every minute. It captures all text, audio, chat, web, visual, etc.

It doesn't send you a reminder, it just simply hides. No icons. Nothing.
_________________________
In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer..Albert Camus

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#34519 - 12/12/10 09:57 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: believer]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: MedC

I am curious about how your view your wife at this point. At one point YOU were talking about putting a kelylogger on her computer. Why? She had a right to leave and begin her life anew. Why would you interfere? I admit that I have not followed your situation closely. Someone asked me to take a look, so here I am.


Anyone has the right to leave any relationship, yes. I guess the issue in my case is that W has not fully left her relationship with me to start a life anew in the sense that she:

1) Refuses my offers or suggestions to divorce
2) Relies on me for numerous emotional needs
3) Relied on me to financially support her and the separation (rent, all expenses, etc.), until I put that boundary in place.
4) Invites me to do things with her (and girls)
5) Has said she doesn't know what she wants/is confused/etc re: marriage.

then on top of that, there is the issue of
6) Our kids and my wanting to ensure I've done everything I can to pursue the possibility of a reconciled family for them.

So, I am in a "limbo" world. If part of what is making her resistant to fully reconciling is the presence of an OM, then a keylogger could help detect that. If she was fully seeking a new life and not keeping me on the hook (allowing myself to keep myself on the hook), then I would more gracefully step aside.

If you are going to leave a relationship, then truly leave it and do not keep the person you are leaving on an emotional tether.

Originally Posted By: MedC

I am curious by what you mean about being addicted to online games. How does one become addicted to these things?


For some it is the game itself, for others it is the social aspect of massive multiplayer gaming leading to virtual relationships with both same- and opposite-sex strangers, for others it is the opportunity to escape/distraction from an unpleasant real-life situation. It is, unfortunately, a very powerful phenomenon. There are others on this forum in which compulsive online gaming was a part of the M deterioration (not unlike compulsive Facebooking).



Edited by bustorama (12/12/10 09:59 AM)
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34522 - 12/12/10 10:31 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
Medc
Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 5195
You are responsible, 100%, for what YOU allow to happen in your life. Your wife is not keeping you a tether, you are. I think on some level you get that.

YOU have no right to put a keylogger on your wife's computer. She left you 7 months ago and inasmuch is free to date as she so pleases (IMHO).

Set appropriate boundaries...have an adult conversation with her...but do not violate her yet again. Just my thoughts.
_________________________
It's not who you are underneath, it is what you do each and everyday that defines you.

Don't go shaking the HO tree and expect an angel to fall out.


medcmbers@zoominternet.net


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#34524 - 12/12/10 10:35 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Medc]
Medc
Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 5195
On top of all that, you would be committing at a minimum ONE felony and most likely two.

_________________________
It's not who you are underneath, it is what you do each and everyday that defines you.

Don't go shaking the HO tree and expect an angel to fall out.


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#34525 - 12/12/10 10:37 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Medc]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: Medc
You are responsible, 100%, for what YOU allow to happen in your life. Your wife is not keeping you a tether, you are. I think on some level you get that.


Yeah, getting that more and more. That's part of my motivation for posting the breakup list actually.

Originally Posted By: Medc
YOU have no right to put a keylogger on your wife's computer. She left you 7 months ago and inasmuch is free to date as she so pleases (IMHO).


I guess here's the issue. When my W moved out and we discussed the idea of dating. I said, I do not intend to date. I also said I do not want to be in an open marriage and if I find that you are dating, then I will file for divorce. I also would want you to tell me if you are dating or intend to date." My W then said, "Are you serious? I'm not going to tell you if I am having an affair."

I took from that convo that W did not intend to date and viewed dating in our current sitch as affair-behavior, which led me to see us as being in a commitment of some sort to one another while separated. If she now is dating secretively and denying it when I ask her directly, saying she is not doing anything "wrong like that," would you still say she is justified to do that? Even when I suggest we get divorced and move on with our lives?

Originally Posted By: MedC
Set appropriate boundaries...have an adult conversation with her...but do not violate her yet again. You also may be committing a felony or two.


Not saying that a keylogger is "right or wrong," but do you EVER view installing a keylogger on a WAS or WS as justifiable (not calling my W that, talking about the conventional WAS/WS where there they have not been betrayed)? In the mind of the WAS/WS, they are moving on to a new life for justified reasons. It seems to be a common recommendation on these forums.


Edited by bustorama (12/12/10 10:58 AM)
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34544 - 12/12/10 11:10 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Quick update:

W called me last night. Said she had just been rear-ended in parking lot. I ask if everyone is OK. Yes. Thank goodness. How can I help? W asks me for non-emergency police department number. Says the other driver has apparently sort of hit and run. Had stopped and called a a friend who came out of store and then the friend told W where to park so they could exchange insurance, etc. When W parked there, both friend and driver were gone and never came back. I gave W # and asked if she wanted me to come down there to help out. She said yeah. I drive down there with D9 and stay with D2 and D5 while W goes looking for "the friend" in strip mall. W locates friend who works in nail salon. Friend says she will call the hit and run driver to come back that she had stopped.

Police arrive and start taking report. They go to nail salon to find friend because hit and run driver still hasn't appeared. Nail salon has closed one hour early. No one is there, hmmmm....I stay until police report finishes and say bye to Ds and W. W says bye to D9 but not to me, she is texting away on phone as I leave and also was at one point while we were waiting for police turning the screen away from me.

Later that night, W thanks me for coming down there and helping out.

This event sort of got me into the mindset of thinking about how I am keeping myself on the tether. I felt like crap when I left and W was so busy on her smartphone that she didn't say bye to me (and yet did say bye to D9).


Edited by bustorama (12/12/10 11:11 AM)
_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34556 - 12/12/10 11:36 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
believer
Member

Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 12109
Yep, you have been demoted to her "friend". Well, sort of. Actually she is more interested in whoever she was texting.

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#34558 - 12/12/10 11:38 AM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
Larry
Member

Registered: 09/03/10
Posts: 5375
Loc: Texas

I am late to the party. I won't stay long. I see no reason to add to the great advice you are getting.

She is having an affair.

Buy and read the book advertised Here!

All you need to know. Do it today if your local bookstore has it, otherwise order it and read upon arrival.

Larry
_________________________
It's often the truth we hide from ourselves that causes the most damage in life.

larry.on.ma @gmail.com take out the space

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#34577 - 12/12/10 12:08 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
Medc
Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 5195
Yes, I do think there are some situations where installing a key logger is worth the risk.

In your situation, your wife left you as a result of your affairs. She has a right to live her life and date whoever she darn well pleases at this point. You have a right to not be part of that equation.

While you would like for her to tell you if she is dating, she is under no obligation to do so. If she had not left you, despite your affairs, I would be giving you different advice.

As it is, IF you spy on her, your behavior would likely fall into the category of stalking (among other things).

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#34583 - 12/12/10 12:12 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Medc]
Not2fun
Member

Registered: 09/06/10
Posts: 1388
Loc: Gateway to the West
Originally Posted By: Medc
Yes, I do think there are some situations where installing a key logger is worth the risk.

In your situation, your wife left you as a result of your affairs. She has a right to live her life and date whoever she darn well pleases at this point. You have a right to not be part of that equation.

While you would like for her to tell you if she is dating, she is under no obligation to do so. If she had not left you, despite your affairs, I would be giving you different advice.

As it is, IF you spy on her, your behavior would likely fall into the category of stalking (among other things).



I agree with this.....

Not
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#34613 - 12/12/10 12:45 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Not2fun]
Medc
Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 5195
Bustorama, there is no need to take my word for it...if you have an IC or an attorney, run by either or both of them the idea of a key logger or GPS. See what they say.

The therapist is likely to turn the focus on you...the attorney will warn you that you are committing serious crimes that can and will come back to bite you.
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Don't go shaking the HO tree and expect an angel to fall out.


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#34621 - 12/12/10 01:03 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Not2fun]
LovingAnyway
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Registered: 08/05/10
Posts: 2214
Bustor,

I'm really glad you're back on MA, updating us.

I don't agree with the IC about you encroaching on your wife's parenting back in the restaurant, when DD5 was acting out. Separation/Divorce has this element...you are no longer parenting...you are separate parents. Still the same kids. Yet when you're together with the kids, it's back to parenting. Very tough balance.

Might be how you expressed what you saw, the tone? Because "DD5 seems to really want your attention right now, and only yours" is honest. She can hear "You fail as a mother all the time." Not what you said.

smile

Thing is...what are your boundaries around yourself? Your DD5 was acting out and then your wife was...what's your enforcements for that that?

Same for the wedding weekend...weddings, old friends, family always brings up very old FOO stuff...you realized that. May have seemed about you, your choices, what you said or did. Most of it wasn't. That part [censored] no matter when it happens. No comfort there...exclusion or cause. I think you'd rather be the cause...then you could be the cure. I read your update that way.

You were present for it. You looked out for the kids...they aren't the bother you may have thought...because it was their experience, too. Keeping them away from her lousy behavior, protecting them results in similar actions, much different feelings in yourself.

Don't focus on her choices...saying goodbye or not saying goodbye. Can be like a knife you repeatedly poke yourself with. Ask yourself why you might want to do that.

Tell us your code, what you were choosing from as you went to her and the kids in the parking lot. Did you speak up about the texting, sharing that you felt ignored, used? What about picking up the kids as soon as you arrived, saying that you know she can handle the situation but that you were taking the kids to your home and to call you when she was finished?

Were you looking for it to be a bonding, supportive experience? Which made the outcome worse?

Don't stick around for bad behavior. Look out for the kids first...because she's ignoring them, also, with her phone. Hurts them like it hurts you--I think that was the signal you were getting when she didn't say goodbye to you and did to DD9. Don't buy into this sham that she's being a great mom. She really isn't. Because her focus is elsewhere.

Let her deal with her own drama, Bustor. She creates and maintains it...can become a drug. And like any drug-user family knows, it trashes all her relationships...even with the kids. They hurt, too. They pick up on all her emotions and yours.

If your boundary is to not have relationships without honesty, then enforce that boundary. Right now, she's not being honest. You don't want to date her when she isn't transparent. I'm glad you asked about who she was texting at the wedding. You can survive her anger, just not her deception. And you know from the parking lot, she doesn't pick her "friends" well...that's good to know.

You're a great influence on her if she allows you to be. Seems she's cutting you out of that for now. Next help-me call, you will handle differently. Your focus on the kids, not her, how whatever she's asking affects your children. Even as you committed to offer and be taken up on your offer to go to where she was, doesn't mean you stick it out, no matter how she acts. It's not all or nothing...well, you went so you're stuck. Maybe that's the tether you experience. You tether yourself to the whole experience instead of seeing where she crosses the boundary and then you don't enforce.

LA
_________________________
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain

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#34622 - 12/12/10 01:04 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Medc]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Yes, thanks all for the generous feedback. I think at this point I most of all need to stop, take a deep breath, and not act out of emotion. A bit rudderless on plan after that, though, and would appreciate further feedback. I've gotten such a variety of advice.

1) Keep amending, be there, you have to be there since you weren't there before to regain her trust that you will keep being there.

2) Drop the rope completely. It's what she wants, give it to her -- healthy for both of you. You also don't have the right otherwise give your past behavior.

3) Act as if there is an affair and try to bust it to get that enemy out of the picture

etc...


_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34660 - 12/12/10 02:41 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: LovingAnyway]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Bustor,

I'm really glad you're back on MA, updating us.


And I'm glad, as always, for everyone's feedback.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Might be how you expressed what you saw, the tone? Because "DD5 seems to really want your attention right now, and only yours" is honest. She can hear "You fail as a mother all the time." Not what you said.


I really do experience it like that. That I say one thing and W hears another (because of her issues/past? and possibly, in part, OUR past?). She views me as a judgmental/hypercritical person and hears most of what I say through that filter. I don't know of anyone else that sees me that way, not even my ex-W. The problem is, while it's not what I intended or, in my estimation, said, it's what she hears. It's like walking on eggshells trying to say things so she won't hear things that way. What's the alternative?

Re: boundary enforcements, when I am with D5 alone, there are firm boundaries and she acts out less. The problem is when W and I are together, D5 doesn't seem to "respond" to the boundaries in the same way. She fights so hard for our attention (and perhaps because of her anger about our situation).

Re: my W acting out, in the dinner scenario, what would be a suggested boundary? "I won't be with you and keep coming out for dinner if you keep talking to me this way, especially in front of the kids?" and then leaving? When I do that, she has started to say that I am "controlling" and not letting her "express herself." I guess, again, her issues?

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
I think you'd rather be the cause...then you could be the cure. I read your update that way.


Yeah. Frustrating when things important to you are outside your control. Damn fixer in me.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Don't focus on her choices...saying goodbye or not saying goodbye. Can be like a knife you repeatedly poke yourself with. Ask yourself why you might want to do that.


I guess that's detachment, huh? I need to get to that. Sometimes I have it, but she can push my buttons through her choices and make me feel like I did something wrong, like I am a bad person. Oh, look what I just wrote. She's not making me feel that way. I'm allowing myself to feel that way because I am focusing on her choices and letting them affect me that way. Got it.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Tell us your code, what you were choosing from as you went to her and the kids in the parking lot.
Were you looking for it to be a bonding, supportive experience? Which made the outcome worse?


Ya, I wanted to help my family, make sure everyone was ok. See if I could assist with any of the police matters. Be there to support my W and reassure my Ds with my time and presence. W's preoccupation with self and phone hurt outcome as did, I guess, my focus on (attachment to) W's choices. Ds were happy I was there =)

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Did you speak up about the texting, sharing that you felt ignored, used?


Well, it seems every time I say something about texting she goes berserk, calls me controlling, intrusive. There was another time early in our separation when I said something about feeling used and she almost tore my head off ("nothing I do is ever good enough for you" "don't come out here saying you're going to help if you have expectations about something."). I should be able to say that stuff to her, though, right? Alternatively, what about the idea of giving without expectation? This is just doormattishness, no?

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
What about picking up the kids as soon as you arrived, saying that you know she can handle the situation but that you were taking the kids to your home and to call you when she was finished?


Good idea, logistics might have been tough in this particular situation, but I get the bigger msg.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Don't stick around for bad behavior. Look out for the kids first...because she's ignoring them, also, with her phone. Hurts them like it hurts you--I think that was the signal you were getting when she didn't say goodbye to you and did to DD9. Don't buy into this sham that she's being a great mom. She really isn't. Because her focus is elsewhere.


Yeah, I really need to bail when she is giving CB and disrespecting. In some ways she IS a very good mom, but in the sense of meeting the kids' needs when the kids need it (rather than when she chooses to give attention) and in modeling good behavior around them, emotional self-control, she's definitely not. It is true that the behavior of D9, D5 and D2 are all going downhill and they are hurting.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
If your boundary is to not have relationships without honesty, then enforce that boundary.


with honesty AND, I would add, respect. What about her idea that it isn't my business who she is texting? That it isn't my business to be her friend on facebook. That my desire for honesty/openness is simply a desire to control her. If those things bother me, that openness is a boundary of mine, and I persist in the relationship after voicing it, then that's my fault, right? If she tells me these are unreasonable, controlling boundaries -- that we are separated and she is choosing not to be with me and I am pushing her away by asking these things. Again, her issues? I just enforce my boundary if it's my boundary? ARE my expectations controlling?

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Next help-me call, you will handle differently. Your focus on the kids, not her, how whatever she's asking affects your children. Even as you committed to offer and be taken up on your offer to go to where she was, doesn't mean you stick it out, no matter how she acts. It's not all or nothing...well, you went so you're stuck. Maybe that's the tether you experience. You tether yourself to the whole experience instead of seeing where she crosses the boundary and then you don't enforce.


I think that's spot on about what has been going on recently. Things start out on the "right" side of my boundary and at some point in the experience, things cross my boundary. I feel [Bleep!] and don't enforce because she is yelling at me when I enforce. I don't need or deserve that. Need to behave accordingly.

_________________________
Me-40
W-36
D9, D5, D3
T-Since 12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010

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#34671 - 12/12/10 03:13 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
Pinhead
Member

Registered: 11/08/10
Posts: 627
Busto,

I think that what you do should be based more on how your wife is acting/reacting these days, and not so much on any fear of an "affair." First, forget the keylogger. Regardless of its felonious nature, it's just inappropriate since she's not living under your roof.

Second, she's completely unreceptive to any attempts to satisfy her ENs. In fact, unreceptive is an understatement; every attempt since you started trying this different tactic has backfired, and she has responded with more CB than ever. So in the spirit of not doing what isn't working, stop giving her attention. I know, easier said than done; but it's for your own mental health.

Third, I sent you a link the other day to Al Turtle's post about how long to wait before letting the relationship go, and moving on. Your wife moved out quite a while ago, and seems to be making no real progress with her own demons; instead blaming you for most of her problems. I know you've thought a lot about your sitch, given it a lot of time to really figure out what you own, and what she owns.

But as you said, you're in Limbo. You're still SATAN to her, and that doesn't seem to be changing. Think of what she's told you about how the house makes her feel. You've worked your ass off to become a good man, a good father, and you've bent yourself into a pretzel trying to accomodate her.

I'm not sure she's having an affair. She might be, with someone at work, as that wouldn't take up much free time. Or, she might just be done with you, and not know how to cope without taking a flamethrower to the family. Maybe she's in her own limbo, not knowing how to get out. It doesn't really matter, and isn't where you should be focusing yourself.

Your IC has told you that these are HER issues. That SHE needs to fix. You're not the source of her problems anymore; you're not abusive, you're thoughtful, considerate, responsive to her needs. But it's not working.

After a while, it doesn't matter what you're doing, if it hurts you. And you seem to be reattaching instead of detaching. Easy to do when the holidays drum family incessantly. But watch out for Busto. Don't tolerate her CB towards you or your daughters, even if it makes her angry. The three little ones are watching you, and when they see you put up with one of her rants without standing up for yourself, it's sending them the wrong message.

Take the next two weeks for yourself. Get ready for your Christmas trip, and let her deal with her own demons. Be civil with her when it's a kid exchange, but don't let her take advantage of your good nature to fill her ENs when she wants you. Don't call/text/email to take her temperature. Stop serving her Angel Food cake. You know she's cake eating, and it hurts you when that happens.

Think about how long you want to stay in your sitch. How much you can personally take, how much your daughters can take, and be realistic. You've been doing this a long time, been successful with a lot of personal growth, but everyone has a limit. I'm not saying you need to dump her ala Gucci, but you definitely need to limit your exposure, go "dim" until you've decided whether to continue the way you have been, or to tell her you're moving on.

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#34703 - 12/12/10 04:34 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: bustorama]
LovingAnyway
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Registered: 08/05/10
Posts: 2214
Originally Posted By: bustorama
It's like walking on eggshells trying to say things so she won't hear things that way. What's the alternative?


I'm hearing you're frustrated, well-acquainted with not being able to control how your stuff is perceived, is that correct?

You repeat back what you hear her say..."Did you just hear me say that I don't like the way you are parenting right now? I'd like to understand what you heard."

You remain clear, focused, calm and not assume her stuff. Go for understanding what she hears, not making her hear differently. Don't wait. If your real goal is to strive to understand, then be understood, do both parts. Emphasis on asking for clarification or confirmation of what she heard.

You don't have the power to change her filter (you already know that...lifelong thing)...you have the responsibility to show the filter, both yours and hers.

My suggestion is that you do this with everyone...your kids, coworkers, extended family and friends...because it's been a source of powerlessness in your life. And you're powerful. Practice, practice, practice.

Yes, DD5 is acting out when you two are together...in her world, you are SUPPOSED to be together...instead of her learning different ways to act when she's with one of you and not the other; and vice versa. She can get your boundaries (and choose which to cross when) with you...and she can get her mother's boundaries (and choose which to cross when); she used to have you both, together, under one roadmap. At her age, the roadmap was something she was trying to figure out--how to act, who to be, what was safe.

That roadmap has been torn in two. She's going to act out. What you want to model for her is how to state her stuff, not demonstrate it. That will help her a lot. Give her the same tools you gave yourself...see where she's reaching for enforcements...first attempt at attention, then she does <blank>. See if she's stating what she wants at that time. Doesn't get what she needs, then she escalates, like a progressive boundary enforcement...begins acting out, trying to TAKE attention away from others. She's trying to see where she ends and others begin...how much she can control and cannot. Celebrate her!

Give her healthy boundary enforcements...what she controls...she chooses to comply or not. She chooses to remove the gift of herself through silence, no eye contact, no touch, sing to herself, take herself away from pain. See all her efforts not as you in control of them. See what she's trying...what she believes works and doesn't work.

About her. Acknowledging her struggle...very much parallels your own, too. You can help each other.

Her acting out and then Mommy acting out reinforces both really get your attention; DD5 can read your emotions, when you're hurt, angry, frightened. Just like you can read hers.

She can believe she broke you two up, like breaking up the dinner. Ask her.

She may feel like she's the glue and if she gets it just right, she'll hold you guys together...which means on the flip side of that belief, she is powerful enough to break you apart.

I'm concerned about DD9, Bustor. You don't report what she's saying/doing. I know you're there for her...tell us about her statements, what she shares or doesn't share.

Btw, you might relate more to DD5 right now because when you're facing the loss of what you most treasure, that's about the age we can be inside...when trauma and fear rise up. Understanding her helps you...and helps her.

I like loving boundaries more than emphasizing firm ones. You love your children hard...when you slack on boundary enforcements with them, it's about them, not you. Your boundaries in parenting still go around you...and we tend to place them around our "future kids"...who we want them to be when they grow up, what we want them to learn. Right here, right now, consistently enforcing boundaries with them helps you to do so with everyone, even WW.

Boundary when WW was acting out, "You are crossing my boundaries of respect and consideration right now. I want to know what you're feeling instead of being shown. If you choose not to tell me, and continue to show me, I will remove myself and take the children with me for 20 minutes until we calm down."

Then you do. First boundary enforcement is always stating the boundary(s) being crossed. Then informing what action you require of yourself. Then taking it.

Same with kids. State the boundary...makes you identify which ones...what we skip over when we sloppily label "misbehavior"...without identifying what boundary.

You don't have to guess (again) her issues. They are hers. Just like she can DJ your words, through her filter, so, too, can she do so with your actions. Not in your control. You aren't doing it to get her to stop. You enforce to cut off your experience of her not stopping.

Tough to express...I appreciate very much you working hard to understand me.

Kernel of truth in her perception...you are being really controlling...of yourself. Enmeshment means she's still over here, in you, and feels that control. Still not about her. She has opportunity and information. What she does with it is hers.

Your job is to provide opportunity and information. That's in your boundaries of respect, consideration, acceptance and honesty.

Don't damn the fixer in you. It's what DD5 is wrestling with right now. Love that fixer, figure out when he was born in you and for what purpose. I guarantee it was from love, before you knew what love was...he wants more control than he can have, to make the world happy, not sad; heal pain and create safety for everyone. He didn't go away as you grew older, understanding your limits, and everyone's limits...he comes to you when you're closest to him, when you struggle with pain and fear. Because he's part of you, which is love. Your job is to assure, hold and acknowledge him. Not react to him.

Just like DD5. She's making her own little girl fixer right now.

You are so powerful you even permit your spouse to push your buttons. Move your buttons. Understand how your spouse also blames you for pushing her buttons. Enmeshment...work to understand it. It's an illusion that worked really well in your marriage until it blew it apart.

Too much or too little...you now want healthy connection, not unhealthy enmeshment. And what you're doing right now IS changing that. Every day, you get to retrain your brain away from unhealthy and more toward healthy.

This is great...you listened to yourself and really heard...remember, you have an internal filter, too...made up of all your experiences...and you broke through that old filter and saw what you were doing. Which wasn't what you wanted...and you got it. Caught it. Keep catching it...did your pain and fear signals dropped right after you caught yourself?

You did support your WW and the kids by being there. You didn't fix anything. Didn't have to...you showed up. Really get how important, significant that is...understand that if you were to chosen differently, enforcing your boundaries of respect and consideration, by leaving when she began the ignoring (you know how DD5 felt at dinner that time), that you are still supporting your WW and your kids.

Do you believe that the intent, benefits of an incident and your actions regarding it, can be wiped out by your behavior later in the incident? Might hear "Oh, great...yeah, you did the right thing and then you went and ruined it."?

Listen to know what kept you there, knowing she was crossing boundaries. Could it have been, "Haven't been in this situation before, don't know what to do?"

Don't doubt the "I'll always be there for you" with your children IS choosing to accept WW's call, showing up. That is what that statement means. Doesn't mean "I'll always be fixing for you."

One can hide within the other.

Like marriage...our real vow to ourselves was that we would go through whatever comes, together. Doesn't say "In sickness, I'll make you well. In bad times, I'll make them good."

In parenting, we often confuse marital vows with parental ones..."I'll protect you from harm, hurt, fear, anguish." Our real vow is that we will "Be there when you experience harm (and be your second set of eyes to foresee it); I know your hurt, fear and anguish; your joy, delight, your knowledge. I'll go through it with you."

Which is why we often feel the same feelings of those we love...from that promise. Not a thing about cause or cure...or control. Presence.

About doormatish...depends solely on you. Are you giving to get? Keeping with the same flip side of tit for tat? Or are you showing up because that's who you really are? Keeping promises you made to yourself? Your intent is your choice. Same for your expectations.

And expectations are premeditated resentments.

She can DJ your actions, your words. That's hers...not about you. That's her choice. Her stuff...her thoughts, beliefs, perception and perspective. Says a lot about her. Nothing about you. In your marriage, enmeshment allowed her to define you and you to define her...the crossover that comes about when you stop defining yourself and hearing her define herself. It's comes from practice...defining her "self" when you're really upset about her actions. Same for you...when she defines YOU instead of your actions.

Clear up those lines. You are not allowed to define anything about her. You are responsible for defining her actions in regards to your boundaries. She's your equal...she's not defective...she chooses her thoughts, beliefs, perception and perspective...just as you do. When you don't really get the impact of what you are inherently responsible for, you will continue to take her defining you, and define her back.

You didn't clarify your intent when you offered to show up for her situation. You said it was to be there to support her and the kids. Was there a hidden expectation in your offer? Check yourself. It's your job. Small amount of attention, gratitude, connection? Because what she did was not acknowledge (maybe at first?), wasn't grateful (maybe stated it when you arrived?), and disconnected.

Doesn't make you going wrong...was in your code. Not giving to get...or was there a piece of that?

When you become in the habit of total self-honesty, you will have different feelings result. No doormat anywhere...because doormats have expectations...continuing more of the same beliefs that led to the destruction of their marriage...giving to get/tit for tat. Earning love and punishment.

Earning loving responses. Not real or true. Not reality. Sure can experience life as if the are solid beliefs. They give us that experience...which is that love is a power struggle.

There is no earning in acts of love. Not punishment or love, fidelity or infidelity; not AO's or words of admiration. No earning there...simple choice. What you choose to act from is inherently yours, at all times.

Sounds like repeating it to death will make it real. It already is real. Very tough to break the habit of earning/deserving when you've been living from that fantasy all your life. Do it anyway. Living in that belief predicates your choices on her possible response...and others. Your kids. Doesn't respect they are choosing or not choosing (still a choice).

Violates your boundary of respect...where you know everyone is equal to you, in every way, even if you don't experience them that way, or yourself.

She can go berserk, call you names...speak from respect, anyway. Don't stay present for name calling, acting out--that crosses your boundary. You're the new sheriff in town, new rules (boundaries) and new enforcements. No doormat in that. You will FEEL very much like a doormat when YOU break your own promises of what you will do, in the order you promised yourself...which are enforcements.

Not because of the outcome (you don't control that)...because you didn't do YOUR half, and you betrayed yourself again.

Do you have the boundary of honesty? Then share what you experience right then with her. "I feel shut out and used right now. I had the hidden expectation in my intent to support you that you wouldn't turn away from me and to someone else."

Own your own stuff first. It's part of why you feel shut out. That's good to know about yourself. Get closer and identify where your hurt/anger is coming from in you...I think this relates to you wrangling the kids during the wedding, too. Once you get to your own expectation, see if it crosses a boundary or is just resentment from you acting to get her to act differently.

Self-image speaks doormat, from control and manipulation.

Real self speaks love, owns actions, choices, respects separateness, equality, offers lessons in every moment, for us to learn.

You'll know because you may crave your WW learning.

smile

You didn't do something bad or wrong. You aren't bad or wrong, can't be. You're you. Don't make yourself into an object (doormat) that you cannot possibly as a human being. Then you won't stay present when others attempt to do that.

First enforcement, state the boundary crossing (CB=Crap behavior), and if she chooses to continue, what you will do and for how long. Second enforcement is you stating she crossed again and then keeping your promise to yourself, to remove for 20 minutes, which is how long it takes to get YOUR emotional drug releases to end. Then return your presence.

That's the difference between control and ownership. See, a drug is released in your brain when you feel fear/pain, and another (adrenaline) from the anger which comes close on the heels of the primary emotion. Takes between 10 and 20 minutes for the chemicals' effect to stop (unless you brew and rehash, go back over the boundary violation, which keeps them being released).

Ownership is not about controlling someone else. Acknowledges your own emotions, vulnerability to act out yourself, fight back, to hurt someone else to make them stop hurting you. Old stuff. No longer in your permissions.

If she continues to AO (acting out, angry outburst), then you state the crossing again and tell her you'll be back in two hours. Take the kids with you both times, if they are present. What isn't approved for you to experience, isn't approved for them to experience.

Your kids need to know they can do this, too. Their behaviors are going downhill, as you said, from pain, fear, confusion, frustration and anger. They don't want it to be this way. They are young and their wishes sound like mandates to them...to fight what is right now, to fix/change, control what they cannot. Their feelings of helplessness, powerlessness are signals to you, too, to show them their power and limits. Model in action, share what you're learning with them. Even DD2...you wouldn't believe what she's taking in right now, the beliefs she's already forming.

About her thinking it's none of your business what she does. You're married. State that. "Everything you do affects the marriage. Same for me. Because we're married. When we are divorced, you're correct, what you do that doesn't affect our children won't be a concern for me."

About you and your beliefs. She's telling you hers, what she wished were true...not reality.

Can you understand the tiny bit of truth in her seeing your actions as an effort to control, manipulate her? In your marriage, were you striving to make her happy, secure, in love with you? Was that your intent, earning love?

Was that honest, respectful, considerate? Intent is invisible to everyone but you. What we act from determines what we experience and how we experience it. On the outside, which your WW is, looks the same, can feel the same...especially when she is assuming instead of asking to know.

Enmeshment was how you put your stuff onto her, and she put her stuff onto you, which works in the good times...gets you deposits from admiration, appreciation, affection, attention, connection. So you think it works, that it's how to live. In the rough times, when you both are pointing at the other for not treating your stuff you entrusted to the other right, and begin punishing each other to get them to treat your stuff right, while you mistreat their stuff that you hold, all falls apart. Not a way to live at all.

We focus on the mistreatment as why that system of marriage fails. It's not the mistreatment...it's the dishonesty.

It's that you are holding, owning, what cannot ever be yours...and she is doing the same.

We can experience giving away our stuff; we really can't. It's ours. Not in reality when we do that.

And we do it because we believe that is what intimacy is...and it isn't. It's an extreme. It's giving to get and tit for tat...from control, to control the marriage and our experience of it.

We lose the loving feelings from our own acts of love...'cuz our stuff is over there, out of our control. Understand it never left you...or her. True intimacy is knowing and owning your stuff...and sharing it with your spouse. Not putting it in their hands...telling them about it.

See, we acted out in this way, permissions to do so in the good times and in the bad...permissions go both ways, all the time. Can't just regulate the good from the bad experience. They are active from your beliefs.

To revoke your permissions, change your beliefs.

Every single act from love your wife did during your marriage was a gift. You couldn't coerce her into those actions. Same for you. You couldn't be coerced. You both were gifts to one another, yet because of your beliefs, you experienced each other as not gifts.

So if you acted from control, and you know you did, and when you did, and when you stopped...then she's not crazy to see you as controlling, not loving.

You're loving now...there are still tendrils of control trying to get you to make yourself safe from HER control, her choices, changing her actions. That's helpful to see, to know, understand.

When you make the habit of choosing to act from love (which doesn't have expectations, has consideration), you will experience her actions differently.

She hasn't changed her beliefs...you have. Makes sense she still sees your actions as from the same intent. Her choice of intent remains the same.

Bustor, when you enforce, and she yells, you state why you're removing your presence and when you'll be back. You won't be there for further yelling.

That's why you feel like shinola. Because you don't remove yourself...and you're focused on getting her to stop yelling. Tree in the forest, sir. Remove yourself. Calm down. Validate and get your signals. Breathe. Come back. She continues, you remove yourself again.

You won't feel at all like shinola, I promise. This is love. Acting from love. Same with your kids...every enforcement is from love of them and yourself. It's what you now live from, instead of control.

Understandable you'll feel a lot of doubt from fear (control comes from fear, not love), confusion, blurred lines and self-punishment. You were living in that all your life, from your choice of beliefs.

Now you aren't. Transition time. For you. About you. If you refuse to acknowledge how impactful, significant, important your very presence is...before you say or do anything...you won't enforce. You're discounting your presence in yourself, dismissing it.

Stop that. smile

LA




Edited by LovingAnyway (12/12/10 04:54 PM)
Edit Reason: messy stuff, more than usual
_________________________
The Paradoxical Commandments

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." Mark Twain

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#34704 - 12/12/10 04:38 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: Pinhead]
SurvivalnAK
Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 59
Originally Posted By: Pinhead

But as you said, you're in Limbo. You're still SATAN to her, and that doesn't seem to be changing. Think of what she's told you about how the house makes her feel. You've worked your ass off to become a good man, a good father, and you've bent yourself into a pretzel trying to accomodate her.

I'm not sure she's having an affair. She might be, with someone at work, as that wouldn't take up much free time. Or, she might just be done with you, and not know how to cope without taking a flamethrower to the family. Maybe she's in her own limbo, not knowing how to get out. It doesn't really matter, and isn't where you should be focusing yourself.


I agree PH.

Busto you have done the work on you and you have been fantastic at being a Rock, but it isn't working.

I truly believe she will not change until she feels YOU have let go of her CB/Drama. That means establishing a boundary and following through on enforcing it.

She already gets mad as hell, so let's say you go "dark" or "dim" and she spews anyway, what's going to be different?

I think no matter what, you have showed yourself in a "good light" and have taken responsibility for your faults in the M. Now it's time to not allow yourself to be disrespected and GIVE her the gift of really seeing what life without the NEW improved Busto will be like. As long as you keep being there for her, the less likely she's going to finally look within.

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#35131 - 12/13/10 03:55 PM Re: Bustorama #1 [Re: SurvivalnAK]
bustorama
Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 356
Wow, lots of very thoughtful feedback for which I am very grateful. Need to read, digest, reread and contemplate a bit before commenting on them.

In meantime, quick update re: yesterday (before I received yesterday's msgs):

Went to W's in AM with D9 to drop off stuff for D2 and D5's swim lessons. W was cleaning place, seemed a bit harried. Greeted and played with little ones a bit. W starts getting stressed they are going to be late. I ask how can I help. She asks me to help get little ones dressed while she finishes cleaning. I put little ones in trunks and get their swim bag together. I ask W shall I put them in your car? She says yes. I do.

W, very agitated, asked me why I hadnt called, said she was feeling anxious that I was there, I hadnt told her I was coming. I said I was sorry she felt anxious, those were her feelings, that I had called and texted to try to give her a heads up, but no answer. W says, oh I see it's my fault, always my fault. You will never understand my anxiety, never have. I said I didn't say anything about fault, W. Help me understand your anxiety. Is there anything I can do? W kind of glared at me, said bye to D9 and left apartment to take little ones to lesson.

I decided not to attend lessons given the exchange, worked on project with D9. W calls me near end of lessons to tell me how well D5 is doing in lessons. W seems less anxious. I say to W, I would like if you helped me understand your anxiety better and let me know when there is something that you would like me to do or not do. W said, let's not talk about it. I said ok. W said she is hungry. I said, how about we have lunch together, in the mood for some mexican? W says yes. I suggest one place, she counters with other. We agree to meet up there.

Get there. First 5 minutes of lunch, W is kind of "tight," seems guarded, moody. I remain upbeat. Interact with kiddos. At some point (also after eating, maybe she was hungry), W's demeanor starts to change and she gets more positive. We end up having a really fun lunch. Kids happy, us happy with kids. At one point W and little ones were face to face, nuzzling and kissing. She was looking at me out of corner of her eye the whole time she was doing this, repeatedly, lots of eye contact over several minutes. I was smiling (really beaming) at her. Said how much I loved seeing them so happy together, how beautiful she and they all looked in their happiness.

Table next to us commented on how happy our girls seemed. What a beautiful family, etc. etc.

Anyway lunch finishes, I say, I had a lot of fun W. W says yeah, what a fun lunch, thanks. W asks me if want to go with her to look for the woman that hit and ran her. I laugh and say, sure, let's find her and hang her high.

After dropping off D9 at ornament Xmas party, meet back up with W and younger D's. I drive us out to parking lot. We case the nail salon joint. We spot the friend of the person that hit her (note, LA, the friend is the friend of the person that hit her, not W's friend). THEN W spots the woman that actually hit her, she works in the same place! We are excited and laughing. W calls cops. While waiting for cops, W says let me tell my friend that we found her! She couldnt believe it when I was texting her about it yesterday. She, in fact, IS texting her GF (and I guess night before had already been texting her GF for awhile before I arrived and they were more or less continuing convo after I got there).

Cops pull in like something out of the Rockford files (not sure why so aggressive). Big scene ensues with whole nail salon coming out, giving W the stink eye, the woman who hits her looks like she is trying to amble away, and I start shadowing her across the parking lot. Must have looked ridiculous. W asks me if I can talk to the cops and the ladies, that I am good at that stuff, I remember better. Eventually, with cop, I get all the insurance info and I take pictures of the woman's bumper that hit W. I also talk to cop, get his incident report #, get the insurance info from the lady and take pictures of the scene of the accident. Basically, try to be helpful H, W takes care of the little ones. W says she is glad I came, am I glad I came. Yes, of course, I had fun being with her. We go to DQ and get some ice cream with girls to celebrate nabbing the hit and run person. I say no one messes with W and gets away with it. She seems amused. I say how fun it is hanging out with her and girls that I wish I had done it more before.

After DQ, we stop by Costco to pick up a couple of things for each of our places. On way driving home, she asks me to rub her back a bit, and I do (while driving). At some point during day, W shows me the groupons she has bought, including one to a bootcamp. I throw out we should do one of those together. W says yeah, we should do it during the workday. Pulls up schedule to see when they are and when we can do it.

After I drop off W and girls, W calls me up and asks if she can take D9 (her SD9) to Nutcracker with D5. I say, I think that would be great. W says she wants it to "start a tradition." (not sure how that will be a sustainable tradition if we stay split up?).

W also suggests we go to dinner at the Indian groupon place on Tuesday and go see Santa at the mall.

W calls back later and says she forgot she also wanted to know if I wanted to bring me and the girls to her apartment Xmas party. Says our couple friend will be there with their kids, the food they had, raffle, etc. Says, I mean you don't have to come if you don't want, but you are technically on the lease so you can. (what does this lukewarm invite mean to you guys??? I couldn't decide if she was minimizing the significance of the invite for me, minimizing her risk in making the invite, minimizing my expectations re: the invite or what?). I felt kind of turned off by the invite and asked her straight out, would you like for me to come. She said yes. I said, Of course I will come then. I love spending time with you, and it sounds like fun.

So, in the AM, W was very anxious, perceiving me in negative light. By end of day, after lots of EN meeting, W seemed more comfortable with me. At end of day, W initiated a couple of future pro-family ideas. I've been here, done that though...At some point, I need to see W really changing too, progressing, and not more relapses to CB.

One significant lowlight, re: dishonesty/deception, at one point mid-day, I asked W if it had been different not getting on FB anymore, with her account deactivated. At first she said, yes. I did not say anything and after a pause, she said, well, I do login from time to time at night and then deactivate it when I'm done (this is not true, her account has been activated consi


Me-53
W-49
D22,D18,D15
T-Since-12/2001
Married-9/2004
She Moved Out-5/28/2010
Piecing start-04/2011
Now-together
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