. . . while NOT going all "melty man." Keeping your legal stance STRONG (yet willing to listen), and making them "earn their way back."
I hope Future doesn't mind me re-posting this, but I felt it deserved the wider audience of its own thread. Because THIS is how one walks the very difficult balancing line between the "loving" part of "loving detachment" and the "detachment" part.
And Future just NAILS it:
Met W out tonight to discuss the custody issue.
Holy sh*t. What a night.
She sent me an e-mail earlier this week about liking what we were doing, but wanting more time with just the two of us. I sent her a reply a few days later saying I had an idea or two on how we could spend more one on one time together. When I saw her tonight she immediately asked about it, but I said "No point in talking about that until we get this custody thing resolved."
Before I brought up the custody thing, I talked a bit about how I've observed married people lately, and how I hate seeing bad marriages. I described something I saw recently and she said "I am so sorry for being like that with you." I said "I'm sorry for not appreciating you." I told her "I will not be in a marriage like that again. I'd rather be alone." She agreed.
Then we talked about the custody. I stood my ground and said I wouldn't give up my custody until a court ordered me to. She said "Offer me something." I said we could switch to full alternating weekends (right now it's only Saturday we alternate). She easily gave in. We were flirting like crazy.
She said "Have you thought about what you'll need from me to make this work between us?" I nodded my head. She said "I know. We have a lot of talking to do. I want to tell you one thing now, and I don't want you to respond." I said "Okay." She said "If we end up in court, or if we end up together, I won't be made out to be the villain." I looked a bit puzzled, and she said "I won't be cast as the villain because of the decisions I made while we were separated. Is that possible for you?" I said "We don't need to talk about it now, but I wouldn't be here if I didn't think it was possible." She looked relieved.
Then she said "So what are your ideas?" I said "Let's take boxing lessons together." She laughed and said "Awesome! We can beat the crap out of each other." I smiled and said "That's exactly what I thought. I'll get the schedule and set it up."
Then I said "Now you want to go have some fun?" She said "Yeah!" I brought her to a club to see an awesome funk band. We had a few drinks, danced, and made out all night. She looked smokin'. Truly one of the best times we've ever had together. There was a significant sexual vibe going, but we didn't go there, not yet. There was enough cautious realism between to know not to do that. I didn't in any way feel I was being manipulated. She really was just right. She stood up for herself, but she gave me what I wanted too, and was vulnerable. I think she feels safe with me. Unbelievable.
On the drive back to her car, she said "My lawyer told me I can just withdraw my petition, and that'll be that. I'll talk to him." I said "Let me know how that goes, and if you need me to do anything." When we got to her car we made out for a while, then she got out and drove away.
What a bizarre night. It was all very cool. I feel good. I think we might just make it.
Wow, I'm honored to have my post put into it's own thread.
I left out a lot of the conversation my W and I had. I'll fill in a little more detail in case folks find it useful.
We met at a small bar near where we live. When we first got there, my W was called away by a couple sitting at the other end of the bar. They were her landlords, so they know the basic story about her separating from me and moving out of our family home. She talked with them for a few minutes, and when she came back she smiled and said "They thought I was on a hot date." I smiled back and said "Maybe you are." She said "Oh yeah?" That startd our light flirting.
When I brought up my observations of bad marriages, I talked about women I met who acted very "single", but who I later found out were married, hated their husbands, sometimes "in love" with some other married man in their social circle, who had a similar attitude toward their marriage. I told my W "It is so sad, why do these people stay married?" My W shook her head and said "It is sad, they stay for money, or security, or the kids". I said "They're in this miserable rut, and years just click by, but they don't do anything about it." Although I won't claim I had some master plan, looking back these comments had two effects. One, to put right out there that I have been out socializing and meeting women, and two, to give her a clue that part of me is actually grateful I got kicked out of the rut we were in.
Then I mentioned how earlier that very evening the kids and I were having dinner at the house of a family that lives down the street. The husband gave me a glass of wine, and when the wife saw, she told him he used the wrong glass, in a snide and demeaning tone of voice. I told my W how much I hate seeing stuff like that now. I said "After everying we've gone through, you'd think I am sour on marriage, but I'm not, I'm still optimistic about it, and it makes me so sad to see people living like this." That's when she looked at me and sincerely said "I am so sorry for being like that with you" and I replied "I'm sorry for not appreciating you." She followed with "I hate how I was. I've thought about it, and I don't know why I was like that, I guess maybe it was just youth. I used to get so uptight about things that just don't matter. I am so much of a kinder person now." I said "I know, I can see it (and I can)." I continued "Life is too short, I don't get uptight any more about things that don't matter." That's when I said "I will not be in a marriage like that again. I'd rather be alone." Of course the point of all that was making it clear that I had expectations of both of us if we reconciled, and if they weren't going to be met, I was fine staying on my own.
Our talk about the custody also included more than I put in my post. In a nutshell, she repeated her desire that the kids have one home, I told her that the best thing for the kids by far was for us to all live together, but that if that wasn't possible any more, then they were going to have to split time between houses. I said "Obviously while we're doing whatever it is we're doing, we're both getting more time with the kids, but unfortunately, when it comes to custody, we have to assume the worst, and precedent is everything with the law. If I voluntarily give up my custody, I will NEVER get it back." She nodded in sympathetic understanding. I said "Actually, I think the kids are doing ok, better than us in some ways. They've adjusted, and they know they have a home with you, and a home with me. You've seen my relationship with them, and I don't think reducing my nights with them from 15 per month to 4 will be good for them." She looked surprised and said "Four per month?" I said "That's what the proposal you sent me said, every other weekend, Friday and Saturday night, that's four per month. And the two evenings per week you offered will cause even more transitions than what we have now. W, I can't agree to that. Anything I agree to is going to be 50/50. I'm not going to give anything less than that unless a court forces me to." That's when she said "Well, offer me something then, work with me." I offered the full alternating weekend thing, we worked through how that schedule would work, and she said "I need to sit with it for a while, I can't just agree to it right now, but maybe it will work." At that point I wanted to let it go. I could tell she was backing down. Her later comments about calling lawyer and dropping the petition satisfied me even more.
Then we talked about us, just a little. My post pretty much included everything we said. She led, I said very little. I didn't want to go all "melty man"!
Realize our whole interaction was sprinkled with flirting between us. Even though I was making it clear that I didn't need her, and I wouldn't give her custody, I also wanted to make it clear how much I enjoyed her company and was attracted to her. I guess that's what Puppy means when he says loving detachment.
As soon as we finished our serious talk I pulled out the stops to just have fun with her. When we walked out of the bar, I pulled her close and kissed her. She kind of melted into me and softly said "I missed you." That's what I mean when I said she gave me what I needed too. That was great to hear. From that point on in the night her words and her body language were very tuned toward me. It really felt like it did back when we first started dating.
As we were walking into the club, she said "Are there going to be people here you're going to have to explain to about me?" I said "I don't know, maybe some of the folks from work will be here." She said jokingly "How would you introduce me, as your evil ex-wife?" I said "You're not my ex-wife, not yet. I would just introduce you as my wife. They will be perplexed though!" Turns out no one I knew was in the club, and after we were there for a little while, being very affectionate with each other, she said "This is so cool. I wouldn't care if anyone other than our kids saw us right now." I said "Me neither, no one." She said "Are you going to catch sh*t from anyone about this?" I said "Oh yeah, I will." She said "Me too. I haven't told <her friend> yet, and oh boy." She shook her head in dreaded anticipation of that conversation. The friend she referred to is the one who's been her negative sounding board about everything. She has another friend who is her positive sounding board. Interesting how she split them up that way.
Later on, after one particularly close moment, I half jokingly said "What are we doing?" She said "Looks like we have a future together." Ironic given my name here!
Our time at the club was laced with light hearted sexual interaction and comments. I really just wanted to have fun without getting into anything heavy. Plenty of time for that later. My wanting to take boxing lessons with my W was very purposeful. I thought it would be fun, but particularly, that is exactly the kind of thing SHE would have suggested years ago, and she would have gotten a big bucket of cold water from ME. If you go back and read my whole story, you'll see that my W is impulsive, no doubt about that. I've realized how much I like her impulsive behavior when it's playful and fun, but unfortunately it can be reckless and destructive too, obviously. I want to give positive reinforcement to the playful and fun side of her nature, to prevent her restless energy from building up to the point she does something reckless again. If I want to reconcile, I have to accept that she has that restless energy inside her, and choose to embrace it rather than fight it. I think this is exactly what she is feeling from me that is pulling her back.
In an effort to not go all "melty man", I have been mostly silent with her since Saturday night. I let her contact me, and she has, a couple times each day. I like how careful she's being. If she was being more forward and seductive, then I would feel I was being manipulated. We had a running joke during our date about who was going to withold sex from the other to prevent us from going too fast. We both knew it shouldn't happen, but we were both just enough tempted to have fun with it.
One last thing. Although I have made jokes about the fact that my W is a MC, I think that is a big help now. She knows what we need to do. On our drive back from the club she said "H, this isn't uncharted territory. Other couples have gone through what we have and have done what we're doing." I said "I know." Little does she know what a student I have become about all this!
I believe honor is the greatest key to a R. I thought about several traits one could have to be successful in life....and in a R, but it all boils down to that one word......honor. What does a person have without honor? They cannot even give their "word" if they have no honor....b/c how could anyone believe them?
If you are a person of honor, then that is the basis for strength, and if you are not a person of honor then I believe you will fail at most everything in life...but especially R's. What is a person without honor? Can we trust a person without honor?
Can a person have self-respect if he/she has no honor? I believe honor makes a person strong. It will give you what is needed when others try to cut you down, or when temptation knocks at your very soul.
Will a person without honor respect others? Can anything measure as greatly as honor? How valuable is love....without honor?
Down through life, we will have many opportunities to display strength and love. I believe honor produces strength and perhaps even teaches us about love.....and it will rise in us during the darkest of times--or in our daily lives.
In our world today, there are many who have no honor for God, country, family, others or even self. I feel blessed to have met those here on the board who have honor. I do believe this must be taught and I pray you each will pass that along to your children.
Love, Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I believe honor is the greatest key to a R. I thought about several traits one could have to be successful in life....and in a R, but it all boils down to that one word......honor. What does a person have without honor? They cannot even give their "word" if they have no honor....b/c how could anyone believe them?
If you are a person of honor, then that is the basis for strength, and if you are not a person of honor then I believe you will fail at most everything in life...but especially R's. What is a person without honor? Can we trust a person without honor?
Can a person have self-respect if he/she has no honor? I believe honor makes a person strong. It will give you what is needed when others try to cut you down, or when temptation knocks at your very soul.
Will a person without honor respect others? Can anything measure as greatly as honor? How valuable is love....without honor?
Down through life, we will have many opportunities to display strength and love. I believe honor produces strength and perhaps even teaches us about love.....and it will rise in us during the darkest of times--or in our daily lives.
In our world today, there are many who have no honor for God, country, family, others or even self. I feel blessed to have met those here on the board who have honor. I do believe this must be taught and I pray you each will pass that along to your children.
OK I am totally trying to do this right now- show Strength and Loving without being cold or pursuing. So this thread is helpful! I would appreciate some clarification, though, and hopefully others could benefit as well! :-)
Quote:
Even though I was making it clear that I didn't need her, and I wouldn't give her custody, I also wanted to make it clear how much I enjoyed her company and was attracted to her. I guess that's what Puppy means when he says loving detachment.
This made me think, "oh, perhaps I should flirt with WH during the drop off/pick up parking lot exchange of S" but then I read this:
Quote:
I like how careful she's being. If she was being more forward and seductive, then I would feel I was being manipulated.
and I have to say, Future, (please don't be offended) that when I read about your confident, flirtatious and forward actions with your wife, it sounded VERY attractive! "Confident Man In Charge!" Sexy! BUT if I were to do something like that, being a woman, I think it wouldn't work. It would come across as pathetic and manipulative, right? Especially since there is an OW? SO I would like to know the equivalent action that women should take to come across as "Confident, Alluring Woman!"
Quote:
I believe honor is the greatest key to a R. I thought about several traits one could have to be successful in life....and in a R, but it all boils down to that one word......honor.
Butwhat does honor "look" like? Do you mean that we don't play head games and are genuine?????
me,34 exH,34 S,16 months S:3/31/09-left for OW started DBing 10/09 d final: sometime 10/10 current: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2022856&page=1 met in 2004
