My wife and I have been married for 12 years and we have two beautiful daughters ages 7 and 3. I thought things were going well, but about 8 months ago, she began an emotional affair with a married man from our church who usually does not work during the day. While I have been off working, she has been spending hours with him on the phone and also going to parks and other places with him during the day, including his house with the excuse that they wanted to get the kids together to play. We homeschool and so do they. He would also fix things around our house.
About a year and a half ago, he started a friendship with my wife (supposedly because he suffers depression and since my wife has a degree in psychology, he thought she could help him). But after awhile he seemed to be putting some moves on my wife, such as making an effort to hug her (while I was at work), taking her and the kids to Olive Garden and sitting by her (while I was at work), taking her and the kids to Jumping Jacks and going down the slide with her (while I was at work). At the time, she was not that attracted to him and we both agreed that all this should stop. We informed him, and for a time, it did stop. But like a moth around the flame, he gradually returned to his old ways and apparently my wife started to fall for him.
One day I came home and he was sitting right next to my wife on our backyard swing. They admitted that they were sitting a little close when I expressed my concern about it. One evening about two weeks ago, after my older daughter told me the man had come over by himself that day (he usually brought his boy to play), I called his house and got his wife. She seemed to be in denial that anything was going on between her husband and my wife and kept saying, "I have to trust him." After I got off the phone, my wife said that she was going to a park for awhile when it was taking her a long time, I called the man's wife again and discovered that her husband was visiting with my wife to try to work out the problem. That evening when she finally got home, she suggested we get a divorce and said she had feelings for him that she never had for me. I was devastated. I had a few arguments with her about it. I thought I had convinced her to give me a month and to not communicate with him for awhile. But apparently she was still communicating with him.
I then discovered this website. The next morning, I stayed home from work (with the excuse that my younger daughter had a cold), and of course the other man called. I answered the phone and he said he had forgotten my wife's birthday and wanted to bring her a present. I said we'd pick it up in church on the weekend and that he should lay off for awhile. I acted that day like things were fine and I played with the kids and helped my older daughter with her schoolwork. Later my wife called him back and I overheard part of the discussion. It sounded like he was trying to get her to run off with him because my wife kept saying things like, "No, I could never do that to my kids and my husband and your family." Currently I fear that she continues to communicate with him and possibly even meet with him. What do I do to fix this mess? I love my wife dearly and want her back, heart and soul.
I posted this in the WAW section of this forum and have been getting advice and help from people there. I thought things were getting better lately, but now my wife and the OM are communicating again by email and telling each other how much they still love and miss each other. I'm at my wits end for what to do. Please help!
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
Probably by tonight someone will have some advice for you on this post. As hard as it is, I think mostly they tell people not to panic and do anything rash for the next few days or start a yelling match or anything. Keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut for a few days and someone will give you advice on what to do not to make it worse. Sorry this is going on right now. No one should have to go through this.
Glad you posted over here...there's alot of traffic here and in Newcomers- this is where I should have been posting from the start...
Aside from wanting a D, what else has your W said? My guess is not too much...if that's the case- you CANNOT ask her and whatever she says will be NEGATIVE, HURTFUL, and mostly UNTRUE- epecially if its minimizing her R w/ OM.
EVERYTHING from here on will be about YOU and YOUR actions. NEVER REACT- if you feel like reacting it will be the WRONG THING TO DO.
Even when you think there's that ONE thing you can say to help matters- IT WILL NOT HELP...from here on out it's about your ACTIONS- its VERY SIMPLE- but hard as hell to do.
You need to be patient, do NOT stress her out w/ texts, phone calls, questions, DO NOT PURSUE her...BE THE BEST DAD YOU CAN BE- and keep focused on small goals.
If she sucks you in to R talk, ONLY LISTEN and VALIDATE- do not use logic or try to convince her of anything- ANYTHING.
OMW is aware of the sitch? You have spoken to her before? Keep everything to yourself, build a case- and like I said- EXPECT to be lied to.
Try to consult w/ Allen and Puppy about exposure...
Are there any plans for a FT or MC? If not start researching good ones...make your first appt for yourself.
Do not tell W to be hopeful, do not ask her to come to MC, unless she has previously mentioned it or brings it up.
SET AN EXAMPLE and TAKE ACTION to be the best person you can be for yourself.
Work your 180s and understand this is going to be VERY UNFAIR- you are going to be doing 99 percent of the work and you can't complain about it.
I'm off to a movie, I'll add more later tonight.
Be positive and try to detach so that your temper and patience dont wear.
Here for you...
If you want to see what not to do...read my sitch
Heck read as many sitches as you can to see what to expect...all is not lost, hang in there
I appreciate your help and advice so much. I probably should not have done this, but today I got into her email and read an email from the OM. It seems like my wife was actually starting to get turned off a bit by his critical comments, but she is still trying to be his friend and he wants to meet up with her again in person to discuss their friendship which I think they haven't done for a couple of weeks now. She noticed that I opened up the email and attacked me about it when I got home. She says she doesn't love or respect me. I realize it was probably a big mistake to read the email - I guess I just wanted to know what they are discussing.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
Not sure what kind of account she has, but if you're going to do that you have to mark it as unread when you're done.
You will likely get all kinds of script for your intel, assuming you get caught: "you don't respect my privacy, I don't respect you, I don't love you, I can't live like this, you're crazy, etc etc.'
If you are going to monitor intel, DO NOT EVER GIVE UP YOUR SOURCES...DONT TELL ANY FRIENDS, ETC...
This sitch may be drawn out for months, YOU WILL HAVE A LOT ON YOUR MIND.
Post here, delete your history, ALWAYS wait for advice before you do anything.
If you look at my sitch and the dates, I truly started posting almost 2 months after the BOMB- I MADE EVERY MISTAKE YOU CAN MAKE- when I needed advice and guidance the most I wasn't posting here, that would have saved me alot of grief.
If she's going to meet OM, dont question her when she comes back, not where were you, what did you do, etc.
When she leaves, don't even ask where she's going.
Right now, you are the enemy to her...you need to be as emotionless, but as pleasant as you can be- ALWAYS-
Don't engage her in conversation unless its the basics...dont ever ask, "what do you want to do about us, how do you feel about us, etc."
W and I had coffee every morning- we would have casul conversation most of the time...when she was done talking she would get up and go inside- my dumbarse would follow her back in the house...DO NOT DO THAT...
You need to come off as independant, strong, confident, and easy going person that you can be...you will prob have to force youself to at first, but if you know everything you're up against it will get easier.
She is in a lot of pain, she is confused, she doesn't know what she wants...you will remind her of EVERYTHGING she doesnt want if you pursue her or pressure her...
Tomorrow you'll prob get a lot of added info...if you havent read DR or DB, go buy them...they are just for you.
Buy books on communication and what ever else has contributed to your M being where it is now.
DO NOT READ PASSAGES to your W, do not leave them out on a specific page yet, do not teach her what you've learned...
Everything is action based...
I have some advice about OM, but see what Allen and Puppy have to say.
For now, dont get busted and dont freak out on her about him...
I am going to pitch the same advice I offer others
1. Expose this affair
To who? To anyone who may apply pressure to your wife to END her Infatuation with this man.
And YES, call it infidelity, do NOT call it a "relationship". They are TWO VERY different things.
Infidelity is to romantic realtionships what Stalking is to dating. It's selfish, deluded, and creepy.
Now, you mentioned church, you mentioned this OM has a wife, you think of anyone else in your famliy who may pressure this affair to END.
how do you expose? You reveal these key points
1. You want your marriage (I assume) 2. Your wife is infatuated with a married man she's been seeing in secret. 3. Now your wife is convinced if she runs away with him her life, your life, and your children's lives will be better off. 4. You do NOT agree - EVERYONE gets hurt by divorce. 5. Please do what you can to persuade my wife to reconsider.
These are the key points you want your support group to impress upon her.
You tell EVERYONE who might be willing or able to help.
Warning : You will find many people you thought were your "freinds" turn their head away and don't want to get involved.. it is at times like these where you find out who your true friends are... cherish these people when they rally to your side, and remember to show your thanks when this is over.
2. Intervenstion and confrontation
Once you expose the affair you contront your wife.
You tell her that your marriage and your family are the most important thing to you and that you will do everything you can to save that.
Your wife will very lilkey scoff or make some excuse.
IGNORE it. Maintain your position and your dignity.
a. Do NOT BEG b. Do NOT ARGUE c. Do NOT NEGOTIATE
You leave your friends to do your negotiating for you.. the friends and famliy whom you exposed this affair to.
You distance yourself from her. Do what you can to stay clear.
Right now your instincts are to cling to her like glue. Your instincts are to follow her around and persuade her to stay and not divorce. Your instincts are to make her understand this is a mistake she will regret later.
Your instincts are WRONG
SHE is following her instincts... Your wife is letting her feelings drive her actions and turning her back on logic and good judgement... Do NOT follow in her footsteps... KEEP your HEAD about you.
You do this by keeping your distance from her. Do NOT talk to her, do NOT help her, do NOT Do anything to directly try ti influence her changing her mind. You will have work to do, but chasing her is NOT that work.
It is early on, so I am not reccomending protection phase yet... I am counting on it not getting to that point.
1. You need to start finding a GOOD Family therapist, this can take weeks. You want a FT that treats infidelity as an addiction, one who is PRO MARRIAGE and will NEVER reccomend divorce unless the COUPLE both want to pursue that. you want to look for a good FT that you will start seeing on your own. Your wife will want to follow the example you set, so start setting a good one by going to a FT.
2. Get in contact with OMW. TELL HER EVERYTHING. EXPOSE this to OMW. Show her ANY EVIDENCE you have. She will NOT believe you without it. Do NOT ENABLE this infidelity by keeping it a SECRET.
Affairs survive on three things :
1. Secrecy 2. Sex 3. Emotion
These three ingredients create a ROMANTIC FANTASY that is VERY addictive and causes even a healthy mind to be deluded into thinking they are in some silly hollywood movie and they will run off together and be happy for ever after. This is as believable as a lottery commercial. You need to BREAK this fantasy with REALITY.
You bring your friends, your family, her friends, her famliy, and ESPECIALLY OM's WIFE bearing down on those two.
YOU do NOT talk to your wife direclty about this at ALL. She WILL confront you. Do NOT argue.
Your mantra is this
"Everything I am doing I am doing to save our marriage and our family"
And you walk away.
The more whispers behind her back, the more people shaking their head at her, the more SHAME she experiences, the less EXCITING her affair will be... and she will GRADUALLY come to her senses, it will take WEEKS of work.
Affairs do NOT end overnight.
Confront OM. Go to his house, talk to him AND his wife and TELL HIM to STAY AWAY FROM YOUR WIFE.
Presumably you have kids and he does as well. If this is the case, you impress upon him and his wife that
"We are adults and we have obligations that far transcend how we FEEL right now..."
He is also experiencing depression. Anyone emotionally vulnerable is more prone to an addiction. He may not even be taking any medication he may have been prescribed.
You CAN put an end to this affair, but do NOT do it through yoru WIFE, this will do TOO MUCH DAMAGE.
Go after OM and OMW and tell them to leave YOU TWO alone to work on your marriage while THEY work on THEIRs.
You make regular phone calls to them to check in.
you make sure they are working on their marriage. Do NOT keep these calls a secret, if your wife asks, you TELL her you are trying to protect TWO HOUSEHOLDS here. You do what you can to keep that family together and yours together.
Keep pressing on OM to LEAVE your HOME ALONE.
If he goes to church, tell people in church who will pressure him or those who he will at least be embarassed by knowing.
You make sure this infidelity LOOKS and FEELS like a CREEPY SORDID AFFAIR .. THAT will bust up the roantic fantasy your wife has in her head.
You make it into something embarassing and shameful.
Your wife will forgive you. SHe will be FURIOUS, but that's jus the addiction talking.
Do NOT apologize for reading the email. Do NOT ARGUE your case for reading it.
"Everything I do, I do to save our marriage and family"
And you walk away.
Now. You need to go to OM's house, you go there as OFTEN as you CAN... you make a PEST of yourself. Do NOT aggravate OM's wife, she is a HUGE ALLY here.
You show up to their house, you be KIND and SYMPATHETIC TO his wife, she's dealing with eveyrthing you are and likely more.
You sit down with the two of them and you tell them that you have a marriage you want to save and that OM's involvement is doing DAMAGE to that marriage AND to his own household as well.
You tell the two of them that it is best if he does NOT make ANY attempt to contact your wife AT ALL. Tell him that time is best invested into saving his own marriage, NOT in destroying yours.
If you have kids, you take those pictures out and you SHOW them the pictures.
You tell them you love your wife and you are NOT going to stand by and watch him attack your home and ruin your family.
You tell them you will be making regular calls and visits to check in on them and any help you can be to help those two work on their marriage as a COUPLE you will be happy to do.
Tell them you wish them the best in thier marriage and that you do NOT want OM ANYWHER NEAR your wife again.
You make it VERY clear you will protect your wife and your family and he is a THREAT to that and to LEAVE your FAMILY ALONE.
NO GIFTS NO PHONE CALLS NO EMAIL NO CONTAACT at ALL
His wife should be on side with this as well.
Tell his wife and OM that its best if he shares his cell phone records with his wife for the time being to ensure that both families are kept safe and no further damage is done.
You get in the OM's FACE as MUCH as you CAN...
I don't know how he will react, so you will have to play this a bit by ear. He may laugh at you, he may be scared crapless...
But you EXPOSE this WHOLE MESS right in his HOME with his WIFE RIGHT THERE.
Tell his wife ot go to OM's PC and read his email.
If they have separate PC's he is likley not deleting the mail... if he refuses to let her, he's signed his death warrant.
if he lets her, she will find something.
But the BEST way to handle this is to find some evidence on YOUR END on YOUR pc and print that up and take it to their home.
Do NOT tell your wife you are doing this.
She will find out eventually, but you do NOT want to WARN her becuase SHE will tell HIM to ERASE his PC of all evidence.
You MUST HAVE his WIFE support you here. If she does NOT believe you that her HUSBAND is cheating on her then you have to convince her... it is a LOT harder to fight an affair if you don't have the support of the OAS (other abandoned spouse)
Do what you can to get proof before you show up at their home.
Maynard, thank you for posting. You have a lot of good advice there.
I don't know if I would reccomend acting casual. I find when there is an affair going on acting casual sends an implied message of being OK with the affair.
We don't want to send a mixed message.
You PROTEST the affair.
You tell EVERYONE you CAN that its HURTING your family and your HOME is under attack.
You do NOT protest to the wife.
you tell her you want to save your marriage and your family and that divorce just makes eveyrone feel worse.
When you are in your home you just look BUSY.
Not happy, not sad, just busy.
You leave your wife alone. If she asks you something, you answer with as few words as possible and end the convo as soon as you can.
We need regular updates ken, on the status of both the affair and your wife's behaviour.
Don't apologize for ANYTHING to do with the affair or saving your marriage.
If you step on her TOE or something, sure, apologize, but do NOT apologize for exposing the affair or protecting your home from marital predators like that creep friend of hers.
If he's going to trash her marriage AND his he's NOT a friend... he's a creep and a predator.
YOU need to PROTECT your wife from creeps like that.
NEVER let some guy spend time in PRIVATE with your wife dude... NEVER.. bad idea!!!
Did it ever occur to you that it wasn't just the OM moving in on your wife but that YOU were enabling YOUR WIFE to move in on someone ELSE's husband?
Did it ever occur to you that OM's wife might not think those two hanging out in private was a good idea?
Psychologists have a LICENSE for a REASON. They are REGISTERED for a REASON... because they counsel people who are VULNERABLE and there is a HIGH RISK of ethics being violated.
This is the case with lawyers, doctors, and other professoinals... there are NO safeguards to protect either marriage in the arrangement your wife and OM were doing.
I am NOT telling you to boss our wife around into not talking to him. I am telling you to GET INTO the meeting so its NOT private.
Anyhow... I hope you understand that married men and women who are vulnerable should NOT be talking to other married men and women in PRIVATE... its a recipie for disaster.
"I am not at all worried about you reading any of my emails. I am not doing anything to put our marriage at risk. you are welcome to review any email I have sent or received on my PC. I have no secrets from you and I won't have any. I made a commitment to you when I married you. Keeping secrets from your partner is disrespectful to say the least - I would never do that to you."
Implied here is that your WIFE was the one being disrespectful by cheating.
Its classic double standard. She can disrespect you by cheating and lying, but if you read her email suddenly respect is a standard you both have to follow?
You don't demand respect, you EARN it. And she's been shortchanging you of late and in my opinion has given you reasonable cause to check up on her communication with OM.
Do NOT argue this case with her. Just give her the quote I put up there and stop talking. Do NOT agree or apologize to any argument she makes.
Just repeat your position.
You have no secrets from her. Secrets make you sick and erode a marriage into nothing. Challenge her to open your email and for her to read whatever she likes.
Tell her your commitment to her is 100% and you have no secrets, but she can check up on your mail at any time if she's at all worried about you.
THIS is YOU setting an example of an HONEST household and an HONEST marriage.
Don't attack what SHE's doing see... just SHOW an EXAMPLE of how an ADULT uses a computer and let her do the math on her own.. she will figure it out.
My wife and I have been married for 12 years and we have two beautiful daughters ages 7 and 3. I thought things were going well, but about 8 months ago, she began an emotional affair with a married man from our church who usually does not work during the day. While I have been off working, she has been spending hours with him on the phone and also going to parks and other places with him during the day, including his house with the excuse that they wanted to get the kids together to play. We homeschool and so do they. He would also fix things around our house.
About a year and a half ago, he started a friendship with my wife (supposedly because he suffers depression and since my wife has a degree in psychology, he thought she could help him). But after awhile he seemed to be putting some moves on my wife, such as making an effort to hug her (while I was at work), taking her and the kids to Olive Garden and sitting by her (while I was at work), taking her and the kids to Jumping Jacks and going down the slide with her (while I was at work). At the time, she was not that attracted to him and we both agreed that all this should stop. We informed him, and for a time, it did stop. But like a moth around the flame, he gradually returned to his old ways and apparently my wife started to fall for him.
How do you know all of this? Your post says, about all of those incidents, "while I was at work." Did you get intel on this, or is this how your wife recounted the incidents to you?
Ken, it seems to me that your wife was looking for your help in fending off this predator, here:
Quote:
At the time, she was not that attracted to him and we both agreed that all this should stop. We informed him, and for a time, it did stop. But like a moth around the flame, he gradually returned to his old ways and apparently my wife started to fall for him.
When it re-ignited, your weak-ass response here:
Quote:
One day I came home and he was sitting right next to my wife on our backyard swing. They admitted that they were sitting a little close when I expressed my concern about it.
You "expressed concern?" Um, hello??? A man who your wife has ALREADY ADMITTED is hitting on her, is at your house, during the day when you are at work, sitting next to her on the swing, and you "expressed concern"???
I suggest that your wife has lost quite a bit of respect for you through these WEAK responses to her infidelity. Many cheating spouses are actually crying out for HELP to their spouses, and for ATTENTION, and to know that they still MATTER to them. When a man, especially, doesn't respond to this in a strong and forceful way, he conveys a lack of love and protection for his wife.
Since women tie their feelings of love very closely with their feelings of respect (it is difficult, if not impossible, for a woman to be in love with a man she doesn't respect), I think your wife is losing love for you through these weak, timid responses to her infidelity.
Allen can give you all of the step-by-step, but until you face this brutal reality, and summon up the courage to deal with it head-on, I'm afraid his advice for you is going to fall on deaf ears.
Thanks pup, I guess what i said implied to grow a pair, but it's worth saying outright.
Ken, you need to march over to OM's house while he and his wife are there and insist he leave your wife alone and start paying more attention to his own.
a. Suppose there were teenagers throwing rocks at your house and you knew where they lived? Would you DO something about that?
b. Suppose someone broke into your house, took your stereo, and left his name and number... would you DO something about that?
c. Suppose someone broke into your house, vandalized the place top to bottom, and left their name and number.. would you go to their HOME and DEMAND they leave your home alone and NEVER COME NEAR it again?
Infidelity of this sort here you are dealing with is no different than any other domestic violation that should be dealt with as a crime. Infidelity USED to BE a criminal act.
Do NOT just sit there and let this man violate your wife while she's vulnerable.
On this point. You haven't said much about the STATE of your MARRIAGE when all of this started. I suspect you two were NOT getting along all that well... this is VERY OFTEN how affairs manage to sneak into the home. You leave your wife vulnerable to an affair by neglecting her or hurting her in some way, and a predator WILL SENSE this and TAKE ACTION... YOU need to PROTECT YOUR WIFE AND YOUR FAMILY... this is your HOME
DO SOMETHING about it... march over there and tell this CREEP to STEER CLEAR
If you have ANY LEVERAGE you can put up on the table to make sure he knows you mean business you USE IT.
Thanks for all the great advice. I know everything you guys are saying is true, that I was neglecting my wife and leaving her vulnerable, etc. when it all started. I was working hard at building websites and trying to make money and at the same time neglecting my wife. I see now that I grossly under-reacted to the situation when the OM was putting on his moves. More recently, I have been more aggressive about it. I have tried yelling at him to leave my wife alone, and I have tried being nice to him and appealing to him in a more Christian way. The OMW is now very aware of the situation, but still thinks it is possible for the OM and my wife to be "just friends", and so has been rather passive about things. This info is not in my post above because it is all in my other thread under the WAW part of the forum, and I didn't have time to rewrite it all again at the moment I posted.
My wife is has stated that she intends to continue to be the OM's friend and that I can "take it or leave it". She insists that she is no longer being inappropriate in her conversations with him, but I'm not so sure. She is still being secretive about her emails and always deletes inbound and outbound messages immediately. But she says he thinks like a woman and that he connects with her and makes good conversation with her.
Meanwhile I am starved for affection. She cooks for me and still allows me to get intimate, though not near as often as before, but she doesn't want to hug or kiss me.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
1. You tell him to STAY AWAY from your WIFE.. period. You find some leverage and you USE IT. do NOT be Passive. 2. If his wife says its "safe" tell her she's mistaken. 3. Do NOT sleep with your wife. 4. Do NOT eat dinner with her. 5. You NEED to STOP ALLOWING her to do this.
SHOW that you will not accept this by NOT going along with all of it.. no dinners with her etc... she WILL get involved with him I can promise you that.
My wife and COUNTLESS other people on here were told the "its ok they can be friends' BS story.. it does NOT work.
I promise you that in three months time you will find out that she's having sex with him. She and he will be delcaring their love and both petitioning for divorce and you will be SO UPSET you will not be able to fight this thing at that point.
If your WIFE is deleting emails then she's NOT being appropriate. If its appropriate then she woudln't HAVE to delete them. and TELL HER THAT.
THOSE WHO HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE - HIDE NOTHING.. TELL HER THIS.
Your wife has told you she wants to divorce you for him, NOW she's STILL sending him emails, HIDING them and you actually BELIEVE its all on the level?
She lies to you outright and your response is "I'm not so sure?"
Don't be a FOOL.
Take a stand. Tell your wife that this man needs a qualified professional and that she has gotten emotionally involved with him.. she is NOT CAPABLE of helping him any further.
Tell her outright if she is giong to put HIM before YOU, that she is being VERY DISRESPECTFUL.
And you will then have to head into protection phase...
That OM's wife should be slapped silly... she's naieve as they come...
Ken, WAY TOO MANY people show up here with a story almost exactly like yours... and they want to trust their partner, they want to avoid rocking the boat, they want to avoid conflict...
It is a MISTAKE to sit back and watch your wife trash HER marriage AND someone elses... DO SOMETHING.
This is VERY EARLY on and you CAN put this fire out... but you are NOT going to put the fire out by being passive and avoiding conflict.. Get in this guy's face, find some damn leverage and USE IT...
Did you tell his wife that YOUR WIFE has alraedy claimed she wants to divorce YOU for her HUSBAND?
Does she just not believe you or did OM lie to her and tell her that its not true?
I am trying to understand how this woman can be so passive AND you so passive when your wife has already announced she wanted to divorce you for OM.
And ya, she likley said it had nothing to do with OM... tha'ts a classic line.. its a LIE.. we ALL HAVE HEARD THAT ONE.
Ken, I am so frustrated that you arne't getting on TOP of this while you CAN.. I was where you are and I let it happen too... and then she started sleeping with him.. at THAT point I was a complete mess and I couldn't fight the affair at ALL.
Do NOT let it get to that point.
Do NOT let your wife email this creep.. I am TELLING YOU .. get INVOLVED and get in teh MIDDLE of this before it ESCALATES and TWO HOMES are broken apart by ignorance and idleness...
I'm one of those that Allen is talking about, Ken. I allowed my W to con me with that "he's just a friend" thing. So I stuck my head in the sand to avoid conflict; hoping that everything would be OK. Well guess what...It wasn't!!
It just gave her more time and room to have a PA with whomever she chose.
Ken, there's a GREAT BOOK out called Not Just Friends by Glass.
She explains this far better than I can.
But the main point is... once your wife's infatuation is built up, they can't be friends anymore.. you can't go back from that.
MOST of the people on this forum had the naieve trust in their spouse and in the capacity for integrity between two people that you do right now...
We grew up and got real very fast once we learned anther man has been secretly mounting our wife because we chose to do nothing other than believe in the good of human nature.
Infidelity is VERY ADDICTIVE.
If you think you can take a bottle away from an alcoholic, or a needle away from a drug user, or money away from a gambler, and they will simply stop, you are a fool.
You will be here in three months time again. This OM will be having sex with your wife, and your marriage will be in much more jeapoardy than it is right now.
Take time off from work, and find some leverage to get OM to leave your wife alone. Do NOT try to control your wife.. that will just antagonize her twoards you and push her into his arms quicker than OM is already drawing her in.
If you have to take six months off of work and follow that creep around the city 24 x 7 to keep him clear of your wife you do it.
Don't be a fool. We have ALL heard this story on this forum and it does NOT end well I promise you. Find some leverage and USE IT before its too late.
My wife is treating me very nice so far this weekend and I believe she is not trying to contact the OM. She has told me that she is willing to be more open about her conversations with him, but still doesn't seem willing to cut off communication with him completely. She now says she thinks he might be gay, which I'm pretty sure is not true since he is married and has two kids. (He has two boys, ages 7 and 1 and we have two girls, ages 7 and 3.)
I have made arrangements with the police that he is not welcome on my property and he can be arrested if he comes. I have asked him many times and in many ways to leave my wife alone and not contact her, and he has actually agreed on about three separate occasions and even apologized to me once saying it was over, but he was back at it emailing her within a week each time. Ironically, tomorrow is our 12 year anniversary, and my wife said a couple days ago when I got into her email that if I bought her flowers, she would just throw them in the trash.
A couple of questions: 1) I know how to intercept and redirect emails from him and have them sent to my email. Should I? I'm just afraid I might get caught and that would definitely send my wife's flames higher.
2) Should I try to block his phone? (Same concern as #1 applies.)
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
I would have a talk with his wife again. Is she really being that naieve and trusting STILL?
Have you TOLD his wife that your wife wanted to divorce you for him and admitted she's in love with him?
I want to know why his wife is still comfortable with her husband talking to a woman who claims to be in love with him.
What wife in their right mind would sign off on her husband talking in private to a woman who claims to be in love with him?
I suspect you haven't told her about that. If not - EXPOSE the affair properly... don't pull punches.
If the OM tells you he will stop and he's emailing her again a week later you need to find some leverage on him.
Does he work? Show up at his workplace in front of EVERYONE there and humiliate him. Call him a creep and tell him to stay away from your wife or you're coming back and you wont' be nice about it next time.
This guy is just humouring you. You need to find a way to FORCE him to leave her alone.
I would not try to intercept messages. He has to WANT to leave her alone...
If you have a way to transparently trap incoming mail and COPY it to your PC then do it... it is valuable intelligence.
IF your wife will discover this, don't do it.
Your wife IS having an affair with her Ken.
If SHE refuses to end contact, AND he is ignoring you, that means they are putting each other before you... that's a big RED LIGHT.
Get his wife involved... she HAS to apply pressure on his end.
I know that Allen advocates doing things with full openness about what you're trying to accomplish...I know that doing things covertly are difficult and when BUSTED, make you look only that much worse.
That being said- see what Allen has to say...I know that you are safeguarding your M and that is NOTHING to be ashamed about.
As for the Anniversary, maybe a generic card, nothing more...the correct answer may be nothing at all.
I would def not go all out w/ anything more than a card though.
Sounds like things are OK- I wouldn't believe the gay thing either, could be a diversion...
Do you have anything in writing that proves an affair is taking place?
Dont' sweat the flowers, people having affairs say all sorts of ridiculous stuff that they don't mean... you need balls of steel and you have to ignore it.
Is your WIFE telling HIS wife ANY of the details they are discussing?
Does she NOT CARE if her husband is gay? Does she not CARE that your wife claims to be in love with the man? Does his wife really care for this guy at all?
I want to know how she can possibly help this guy if they arne't sharing any info with his wife?
She's teh guys' wife, why isnt' she interested in what they are talking about?
I don't get it.. Ken, something's missing here... please fill us in... no woman is THAT trusting and THAT neieve.. I suspect you haven't told her everything.
I know that Allen advocates doing things with full openness about what you're trying to accomplish...I know that doing things covertly are difficult and when BUSTED, make you look only that much worse.
That being said- see what Allen has to say...I know that you are safeguarding your M and that is NOTHING to be ashamed about.
As for the Anniversary, maybe a generic card, nothing more...the correct answer may be nothing at all.
I would def not go all out w/ anything more than a card though.
Sounds like things are OK- I wouldn't believe the gay thing either, could be a diversion...
Yup maynard, normally I would, but this woman is deleting emails and openly hiding information... so I say take the info directly.
She's being disrespectful towoards him, so why respect her privacy?
I checked my wife's emails and put her phone on the kid plan so I could manage who she had access to. It sent her thru the roof. I told her that if she didn't like it; to get her own.
Eventually she did after she moved out.
Point of this story is that you cannot control who she communicates with but you can surely NOT fund it or allow it to go on in your house.
Oh....he's not gay. She just wants you to give up trying to keep them apart. I heard that too.
Thanks for your suggestions. I won't intercept her email, but I try when I can to copy them to my PC. I usually am only able to get what my wife writes, but every once in awhile I get what he writes. I already have plenty of evidence that an affair is taking place, though it still at an emotional level (saying I love you...things like that) and the most physical it has gotten (I think) is a kiss.
I believe what you are saying is correct about him being gay - it's my wifes way of making me think things are ok. The OM's wife is very overly trusting and has in the past come over and left my wife alone with her husband while going outside with the kids for long periods of time and has gone to the park with them and left them alone on a park bench while going on long walks with her kids. The reason I know so much is because my kids have told me. They tell me when he has been over and when my wife has been on the phone with him for two hours. I have tried to make it clear to her that they are telling each other that they love each other, and she doesn't seem to get it very well, although she is now much more alert to the situation. I need to mention that my wife is a stay-at-home mom and does not work as a psychologist. She just has a bachelors degree in it and that was just one of his excuses to come see her (since he suffers depression).
I'd love to go to his work and embarrass him, but he doesn't work. He made a lot of money as a plumber for rich people and now has been living off of that and real estate investments, but now he is going back to school to study to be a nurse, so maybe I should find out about that and go there to embarrass him.
Last time I saw him, I called him several names that I felt bad about because I don't usually talk like that, and I had the police over to get him off my property because he wouldn't leave when I asked him too several times. Even the neighbors came out to see what the fuss was about. I think I could have handled the situation better, but I did get an agreement with the police that he cannot come here without being arrested. (This story is in my other thread under WAW.)
I really like the idea that you gave me for the anniversary. I'll have to see what I can do.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
Hi I have been following and must chime in. Your guessing is driving me crazy!
If you feel the need for concrete proof or to verify NC: Get Spector Pro, A keylogger for her computer.($100 or so) If you do not have access to her computer, Try Webwatcher, which can be installed via email, I think.
Also, get a VAC, voice activated recorder. Get a small digital. Sony has one for about $40 at walmart. Leave it in her car under the seat or where she is most likely to talk with him. Get good batteries and practice with it first so you can be sure it won't beep or buzz!
Waywards will lie even when presented with such evidence, so this must be for you or OHW. Then drop it. Don't get addicted to it. It isn't healthy.
Oh, and never ID your source, or even all your intel.
"If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" 1st thread
Thanks Whatnow, thats' some pretty good ideas right there.
Ken, it sounds like you need to get OMW woken up... print up the email you have that's condemning and share it with her.
Once you have done that, and OMW is CONVINCED there IS an affair taking place you show your wife the emails and confront her.
She will be LIVID... She will blast you.
BUT, you will show her you are NOT going to be fooled by her "he's gay" story or anything else she lies to you about.
You NEED GOOD EVIDENCE before confrontation.
She will TRY TO LIE, but you need good ammo here...
You will NEED support from friends and family and THEY won't know who to believe, so you NEED PROOF so yoru friends will support you.
Step 1 - Intelligence - collect a mountain of proof of an affair
Step 2 - Expose - reveal the affair to any and all supportive friends and family who will apply pressure on the wife to end the affair - OMW ESPECIALLY... have LOTS of GOOD evidence.. you have to convince her friends and family that she's cheating, she WILL LIE... you want to get her to LIE to them FIRST, and THEN in step 3 you show evidence to her.... once her friends catch her in a lie they will believe YOU and will be more supportive of you.. untl you can PROVE it, they will turn their heads away and tell you its your business they arne't taking sides.
Step 3 - Intervention - you confront WIFE with supportive family and friends to END the affair
Step 4 - Protection - if she refuses to END the AFFAIR we go to this step, I will cover in more detail later on
Right now just do what you can to get OM away from her and collect evidence of an affair...
WHen you DO try to confront her with family and friends your wife WILL LIE to their FACE about it... you have to be able to proove to her friends and family behoyond ANY DOUBT that an affair IS happening... NO ONE WANTS to believe affairs are happening... its a HUGE MOUNTAIN to get people to believe you...
If you all have not read Ken's other thread in the WAW forum, it would save you a lot of time. He has already been given much of the advice you are giving now. I don't think I told him to go to OM's workplace, but most of the other.
His Pastor even told him that if the A didn't stop that the only answer was for Ken to move away. This was after me pushing him to discuss it with his Pastor, due to his Christian views conflicting with the action he needed to take.
The OM threaten Ken if he had an RO placed on him, etc.You would just have to read it.
As a last resort b/c of the horrible things his W & OM were saying& doing, I told him to call OM (in front of his W)to come get her. He did, OM went and took W home with him......to spend the night in his home while OM's W was there. Next day, she was back. Then Ken called the Pastor to come talk to the "four" of them. OM's W hides her head in the sand, and the church looks away.
I am glad you men are trying to help him b/c I didn't know what else to say. Ken has a hard time applying tough love b/c he craves physical affection so much and his W can keep him under her control by "allowing" him to have it once in a while.
Last edited by sandi2; 03/15/1011:36 AM.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Hi I have been following and must chime in. Your guessing is driving me crazy!
If you feel the need for concrete proof or to verify NC: Get Spector Pro, A keylogger for her computer.($100 or so) If you do not have access to her computer, Try Webwatcher, which can be installed via email, I think.
Also, get a VAC, voice activated recorder. Get a small digital. Sony has one for about $40 at walmart. Leave it in her car under the seat or where she is most likely to talk with him. Get good batteries and practice with it first so you can be sure it won't beep or buzz!
Waywards will lie even when presented with such evidence, so this must be for you or OHW. Then drop it. Don't get addicted to it. It isn't healthy.
Oh, and never ID your source, or even all your intel.
This. ^ Stop wasting your -- and our -- time, and just DO THIS, Ken. You don't answer 3/4ths of the questions that people have for you here, nor 90% of the advice.
Sorry Puppy Dog Tails - it's hard to keep up with all the postings here, but yes I did get keylogger and a digital recorder and I have been using them. It seems that my next step is to find out where the OM has his nursing classes and go there and embarrass him. But finding that out is not going to be easy. I agree that my pastor has been passive about his help - unfortunately I think that's how he feels I should be handling the situation. Pray about it, be nice to my wife and hope everything gets better, basically.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
I would start telling his CONGREGATION how he handles affairs amongst its members... somehow I don't think the Pastor would LIKE you doing that, but if he stands by his advice, why not pass it out?
If you want to kick the Pastor in the rump, start sharing is brilliant advice with the members publically and overtly... I suspect he will get more actively involved if his efforts are suddenly under public scruitiny...
I can't imagine his congregation members would approve of his passive attitude...
I would start telling his CONGREGATION how he handles affairs amongst its members... somehow I don't think the Pastor would LIKE you doing that, but if he stands by his advice, why not pass it out?
If you want to kick the Pastor in the rump, start sharing is brilliant advice with the members publically and overtly... I suspect he will get more actively involved if his efforts are suddenly under public scruitiny...I can't imagine his congregation members would approve of his passive attitude...
I wasn't saying what I did in order to gang up on the Pastor, but I just wanted you all to know a tiny bit of what has gone down. I think Ken has too much on his plate right now to worry about trying to cause an uprising in his church.
************************* Ken, I personally wonder if going to OM's place of employment will have any effect unless you can back up what you say to him. I don't think just embarrassing him is enough. In the past, OM has bluffed you out quite a bit. You would not get a RO against him b/c of what he told you, so be sure you are willing to carry through. Also,understand that there is a chance your W will in no way support what you do. Prepare for the worst.
You have made a few "tough love" decisions but you have a tendency to give into being passive and that tears down whatever you tried to do, so that is what you need to realize.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Perhaps confront the pastor in private and let him know of how he's failing his position and congregation...suggest that he take a long hard look at what he's dedicated his life to and what he in turn condones by looking the other way...
My pastor and others in the church feel like there is nothing much they can do to help things. I believe he would be willing to go over and talk to the OM if I asked him to, and I think he has done that, but the OM doesn't listen. Many people have told him to leave my wife alone, but he is very brazen.
Well about my anniversary: I brought home a small card and a small box of chocolates for my wife and she said, "I told you not to get me anything!", and she put the chocolates and the unopened card in the pantry. I also tried to make arrangements for a babysitter so we could go out to eat, but while I was on the phone, she yelled, "I'm not going anywhere with you! There is nothing to celebrate!" I said, "Well I'm going to celebrate my anniversary" and she said, "I wish that day never happened!" Then I left and went to a nice restaurant to eat alone.
She definitely surprised me after what I thought was a pretty good weekend with her. I haven't seen any evidence of her communicating with the OM for three days now.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
Well Ken, I thought I suggested you to NOT invite her, to just make teh plan for yourself and make her aware she was welcome to join you... and I thought I said buy a gift for the HOME
You bought HER chocolates and invited her to dinner?
That's a WEE BIT of PURSUIT.. and you got exactly what MWD would have warned you would happen... she fled!
You need to stop the chase.. NOW
OK ken, so re the OM, what is his WIFE doing about all of this? Does he believe something is happening between these two NOW?
woops...I made it a bit of a pursuit and shouldn't have...oh well, I hope it will have close to the right effect.
Well it was a pretty good weekend compared to the last several months of weekends. She cooked some great meals, we got intimate, she asked for a massage which I did for her, we watched a movie together. It seems like about every Monday, she puts up a wall that lasts until the next weekend.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
I can't believe what just happened. I thought things were getting a little better, but today I discovered that my wife and the OM had a phone conversation again and he emailed her three times today telling her how much he misses her and that he wishes they could spend time together.
She says he is just a friend and refuses to share her email messages with me and refuses to stop communicating with him. I am very frustrated.
Should I send the OM an email asking him to stop it? I'm pretty sure he would ignore me. He would just tell my wife what I did.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
I can't believe what just happened. I thought things were getting a little better, but today I discovered that my wife and the OM had a phone conversation again and he emailed her three times today telling her how much he misses her and that he wishes they could spend time together.
She says he is just a friend and refuses to share her email messages with me and refuses to stop communicating with him. I am very frustrated.
Should I send the OM an email asking him to stop it? I'm pretty sure he would ignore me. He would just tell my wife what I did.
Sure, go ahead. Right after you send an e-mail to the neighborhood burglar, asking him to "please stop breaking into my house," and to your congressman, asking her to "please stop lying."
Your wife is lying to you -- that's a given. The question is, is that a boundary with you or not? Are YOU willing to live in a marriage where your wife communicates in appropriately with another man, hides it from you and lies to you about it, or not?
Ken, this isn't about your WIFE. It's about YOU. Boundaries are all about YOU.
That's the wonderful thing about marriage when its healthy is you dont' have to worry about these sorts of things happening.
Ken... This is a very difficult point in a marriage, and you do have my sympathies...
The more you sit back, the more this affair is going to progress.
My advice has always been to deal with OM as aggressively as possible short of physical violence.. public humiliation being one of my favourites...
However in the spirit of generosity to views i do not in any way agree with.. this thread being a particularly fine example of addiction starting up and taking shape... I would warn you to be careful when taking an aggressive stance, as this can lead to undesirable consequences.
In short Ken, you need to roll some dice here and decide if you want to try being nicer to your wife, or more aggressive with OM...
My recommendation is with the latter based on my research of these topics... but its completely your call.
Because getting aggressive with other man will in the SHORT TERM make your wife FURIOUS with you... but if your aggressive tactics are successful in driving him away your wife will have time to go through painful withdrawal and eventually she will forgive you for fighting for her so earnestly...
Okay Allen.....now I am confused. Didn't you advise him to go to OM's workplace and sort of call him out about the A? I would think that was taking an aggressive stand. Now, you are warning him about being aggressive with OM. Maybe it's just me.
Ken, let me remind you that in the beginning of all this mess, you did "ask" OM to stop contacting your W and both of them as much as laughed in your face about it. What next? Asking your Pastor to come back to talk to the four of you again? Don't keep doing what didn't work the first time around.
The OM will continue to contact your W as long as you and OM's W allows it to continue. Neither of you have given the cheaters any consequenses.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
1. I am warning him as a courtesy to earlier "commentary" about aggressive approaches to combatting affairs. I still reccomend being aggressive, but as a courtesy to some earlier posts on another thread I am offering up a warnign that "not everyone agrees with me"... to my mind this is obvious, but at least I am showing some sort of effort to be diplomatic lol. I would still reccomend him confronting him in public.
2. The more you expose, the less FUN the affair is. THe idea is to spoil the fantasy and romance with a lot of reality. Similar to having a baby cry during a good film... makes it not worth watching. This is part of the objective with exposure - to do damage to the illusion. Even if the affair continues, it will now have a history of embarassing interruptions and painful moments in it... it wont' be the secret fun-filled fantasy it used to be.
Okay Allen.....now I am confused. Didn't you advise him to go to OM's workplace and sort of call him out about the A? I would think that was taking an aggressive stand. Now, you are warning him about being aggressive with OM. Maybe it's just me.
I dont see a contradiction here. Offering a warning does not dismiss the advice, it just helps to ensure he's been made aware of the potential impact.
We get a warning message from our computer's operating system before we delete a file from the system, but we do it anyways most of the time.
I don't see a contradiction here.
I am offering the warning to appease rabblerousers for the most part, I felt and still do that the potential impacts are obvious.
I've not been out of the fog long enough for you to use big words like that, Allen.
lol
I keep getting sucked back into that drama school of a thread, its almost as bad as the affair i had to deal with... its a good test of my patience though.. each time I sidestep an insult hurled at me I give myself a little pat on the back. lol
Maybe not the smartest, but I will concede the one that would protect me the best for the moment... I havent' seen drama on this forum that bad in a long time...
OK here's an update: My wife got a part time job this week. She is making a little money now and I think she wants to get her own cell phone. She has been taking my cell phone with her "for emergencies" but I know that she used it to talk to the OM both yesterday and the day before. If I keep it from her, she gets very mad at me and says I am not her father.
Yesterday evening, she went shopping with me but refused to hold my hand. I went to church with the kids this morning and my wife stayed home and cooked lunch. She also talked to the OM by phone while I was gone. (He stays home from church too now.) I don't have recordings of any of the recent conversations. I also know that the OM send her a message today on her Facebook saying, "This is really hard for me but I think you will be better off if you forget about me." Not sure what prompted that, but I hope he's serious.
My wife said this evening that she had a headache and wanted to get out for awhile, so she left. Before she left, she begged me for the cell phone. I was very reluctant to give it too her but I wanted to avoid problems and I said to her, "Promise me that you won't call him (the OM)." She said she wouldn't and I gave it too her. To the best of my knowledge, she hasn't seen the OM for awhile although I can't be 100% sure. She likes to go off to a park to see the sunset by herself occasionally. Of course it's possible that she will talk to the OM on the phone, but it will be recorded this time if she does.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
Ken, I don't have time to read your entire situation but I will tell you this:
1. YOU DO NOT GIVE HER YOUR PHONE. PERIOD.
2. You do not give her ANYTHING or provide ANYTHING that will enable her to continue her affair.
3. LISTEN to what Sandi is telling you. She KNOWS what she is talking about and has been giving you sound advice.
<SNIP>
What the hell is wrong with you? Next time she asks lead her into the kitchen, pull out the carving knife, put it in her hand and hold it against your heart. Then tell her, "Go on stick it in!!!! Just kill me and get this over with. Is that what you want? Do it. Go ahead and do it!"
GROW A PAIR and learn how to say "NO!!!"
M:11 | T:12 | Status: Married 4C's of WAS communication: Cool, Calm, Collected and CONFIDENT
She has been taking my cell phone with her "for emergencies" but I know that she used it to talk to the OM both yesterday and the day before. If I keep it from her, she gets very mad at me and says I am not her father.
You know her and you know what she is doing. Why do you give in to what she demands? Why are you afraid of her anger?
Quote:
she went shopping with me but refused to hold my hand
So, you are still trying to pursue physical affection.....after we told you to stop.
Quote:
I also know that the OM send her a message today on her Facebook saying, "This is really hard for me but I think you will be better off if you forget about me." Not sure what prompted that, but I hope he's serious.
Of course he is not serious, Ken. Wake up! He is just playing "poor kitty".
Quote:
I was very reluctant to give it too her but I wanted to avoid problems
AVOID PROBLEMS?
Look Ken, you need to know the difference between "peace" and "avoiding problems". She is having an affair! You are helping her to have this affair. How do you see that as avoiding problems.
Let me put it to you like this. This is how I see you, if she would just not get upset (mad) at you and keep things calm at home and give you physical affection....then you would be happy. Am I right? I doubt you would even fuss about OM if she would just give you physical affection b/c that has been your real problem throughout all of this.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I was very reluctant to give it too her but I wanted to avoid problems
AVOID PROBLEMS?
Look Ken, you need to know the difference between "peace" and "avoiding problems". She is having an affair! You are helping her to have this affair. How do you see that as avoiding problems.
Neville Chamberlain "avoided problems." Hitler took the Rhineland -- and half of Europe -- anyway.
Puppy, I think helping Ken to be aware of the consequences of enablement is in order here?
ken, most EA's become PA's.
If your wife divorces you and runs off with him, then you can't protect her anymore.
Less than 1% of divorce couples last long term. The result is someone cheats on someone else, or someone ends up depresseed and leaves again, domestic violence is not unheard of.
If this OM is willing to behave this way to your home, you, your family, and your wife, his integrity is in serious question.
You want your wife running off with someone like THAT ? You say you love her, but right now when you enable her, you are just loving YOURSELF and letting HER get MORE involved with someone who is 99% likley to just be USING her for SEX and will DISCARD her long term.
You think what YOU are doing when you allow her to cheat is loving HER?
It's not, its loving YOURSELF and what YOU get right NOW. Your WIFE is headed for SERIOUS trouble and you are HELPING OM to HURT her right now. The end result is your WIFE getting HURT when you give her that phone.
Puppy, I think helping Ken to be aware of the consequences of enablement is in order here?
Possibly. But after taking Sandi's advice and reading up on Ken's entire first thread, and adding to that how he's (non-) responded to this one, I really think none of it is going to matter much.
He's gotta "WANNA," or else we can't help him. And you can't MAKE someone, "wanna."
Yup... I am thinking this Ken's goal here is more about how to help him rather than helping her, and right now she's in a lot more serious trouble than he is.
OK maybe it wasn't the smartest thing to do to let her have the cell phone yesterday evening. Se told me she wouldn't call the OM, but she did call him. I was able to record her side of the conversation and she was telling him that she was mad at him for the email he sent saying that she's better off without him and she's mad at him for complaining about sleeping on a cold hard floor on the night she went to stay with him in his other house and saying that he wanted to go back to his house and sleep in his comfortable bed with his wife. So she thinks he doesn't really love her. She's also mad at him for never making plans so they can be together.
I suppose I can keep the cell phone from her, but she's probably going to call him anyway from our house and she will very likely get her own cell phone in a day or two now that she's making money. Oh and in addition I will have to suffer the wrath of Khan and accusations of being "controlling" etc.
Ken, that was INTEL and a good move on your part. Bravo
If you can record her half of the convos when you give her your cell then by all means do so.. in THAT case, its worth it so you know better where things are at...
Oh and in addition I will have to suffer the wrath of Khan and accusations of being "controlling" etc.
So??
Learn to focus on DOING THE RIGHT THING, instead of on "what will make her mad? How will her being mad make ME feel?"
Do that, and the rest falls into line.
My wife had a new cellphone within THREE HOURS of me cutting hers off. So what? I DID THE RIGHT THING. I was no longer paying for her to conduct her affair right under my nose, and I GAINED HER RESPECT.
I am considering starting a thread of "Why Do LBH's Fear Their WAW's Anger?" I have never seen so many guys shudder at the thought of their W getting mad. I would like to know what has become of the men in our society.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
It's not universal, but I would roughly estimate that there are 8-10x as many men afraid of their wayward wives, as vice-versa.
I'll admit, I was once a classic "Mr. Nice Guy" too, but I got over it VERY quickly once I decided to attack my wife's affair and fight for my marriage.
Sadly, I think that Western culture -- and the media -- have largely emasculated the Western male. Little boys are taught that playing a simple game of "tag" on the school playground is "stalking behavior," and kissing little Amanda on the cheek in the lunchroom is "sexual harassment," and little Joshua gets expelled for it.
Men are taught to just help out around the house, don't over-assert your own emotional or physical needs, and just "go along to get along," for the most part. "Sensitive, Caring Guy" has replaced "Old-School Neanderthal Guy," and NEITHER of them is a healthy model for a successful male/female relationship.
So yeah, they've taken our 'nads away, and we let 'em!!
Thought I'd add my two cents as someone going through this right now. Puppy your assessment seems bang on to me.I had a Neanderthal father and vowed to not be him but became 'sensitive, caring guy' but you know what...it wasn't authentic and it led me to sit back and do nothing which must have seemed like abandonment to my w. Now I am struggling with solutions to my current problem waffling between both approaches. http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1963383#Post1963383
M 40 W 39 D 4 M 5 years Bomb dropped 08/09 In house separation
I thought I was being a good husband by working on what I thought I heard my W say she wanted, but it turns out I was WAY off the mark.
Since then, she is quick to blast me when she feels I have slighted her, pressured her about our R, or taken steps to attack the A. I, on the other hand, have been slow to react or confront, since I have a pretty good idea how this movie ends and have been trying to hold onto my life as long as possible while I work on a rewrite of the ending.
I have put up with a lot of crap for the last few months while trying to keep my family together, and am only now starting to stand up for myself and fight for what I know is right. Even now, I know I should go further than I have, but haven't been able to make myself do it yet.
Some of it may be how my W controls me. I think she knows I won't confront her or start a fight with her when I think things are going well between us, since I don't want to move backwards.
FWIW, when the eventual fights do come, it also makes it especially hurtful when she tells me, "My feelings for you haven't changed. You annoy the living !@#$ out of me. I was just trying to be nice and tolerate you so we wouldn't fight..."
I am considering starting a thread of "Why Do LBH's Fear Their WAW's Anger?" I have never seen so many guys shudder at the thought of their W getting mad. I would like to know what has become of the men in our society.
Sandi for some here this is the journey where they lose the boy and become a man for the first time in their lives. I know it is what happened to me.
Its a battle against passive aggressive tendencies. A battle against taking the path of least resistance. But sometimes the boy needs to be completely broken before he begins to fight for himself and learns to stand up to his wife. And when he does stand up. He will realize that he is equal.
If you start such a thread I will offer my advice on this journey that I am taking.
Flowers always make people better, happier, and more helpful; they are sunshine, food and medicine for the soul. unconditional love is awesome!
I am in the same journey. Right now preparing to expose.
I have to say sandi. Your situation is very similar to mine.
My wife told me she wanted to feel taken care of and protected. We were both unemployed. I busted my a** to find a job and worked my ass of 60 hrs a week to give her that. Did she appreciate it? NOPE. Was it what she really wanted for real ? NOPE. She needed other things I wasn't giving to her.
She always said she understood I had to work long hours but instead she found herself an old teacher from her High School on FB and spent hours complaining about how I neglected she felt. The guy, a 50 yo married man played it flawlessly and once he knew what she was lacking of he told her EXACTLY WHAT SHE WANTED TO HEAR.
I tried to be kind, loving, thoughtful, give her space, respect her privacy, etc I worked on my marriage the best way I could. Did she appreciate it? NOPE.
You need to let go if you're really serious. You can't rewrite this script, the movie is over. The film was burnt, ok? At least that's how I see it in my marriage.
You need to write a WHOLE different movie. Even if it's about you and your wife again but it needs to be a WHOLE different one.
And you won't get there until you start respecting yourself because respect and not purely love is the basis of a healthy loving relationship.
I wish your strength. Show her the man (as one wise friend told me). Show the man to yourself. Lose the boy. Try and use every minute of this to discover the real you, he's been hiding behind a shy boy. GET HIM OUT OF THERE.
Pls feel free to read my thread. I'm going through the same thing as you are.
Last edited by Fracesc; 03/22/1010:11 PM.
Separated: March 1 * Affair discovered: 20-March * Exposed: 27 March * Def. separation: May 1st *
Update: Today I recorded another phone conversation my wife had with the OM. She spent about two hours on the phone with him today talking about how she wants to be with him and is in love with him but she's not sure it's OK with God. And that she's not in love with me and doesn't think she can fall in love with me because she is not attracted to my personality. The OM has been married for 18 years and we have been married for 12. They talked about how they have both been faking it for years. They ended the conversation saying to each other "I love you", words that I haven't heard for several months now. What can I do?
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
Stop recording. Stop listening. That kind of intel is not good for you.
Now that you know this (and I think it was GOOD to do), I agree -- just stop. There's nothing further you can gain if it's going to eat you up inside.
I know it hurts (like Hell), but this is all just so much SCRIPT. Every wayward says this. Five days before my wife begged me to take her back, she was texting OM saying "You're the only one who does it for me," and my own recordings turned up my wife saying she wasn't in love with me, and could never stay with me. Five days later, she's telling me "You're my home."
If you CAN stand to listen, there is valuable intel you can gather. You can tell what OM is doing that she likes, and what he does that she DOESN'T like, and you can use it to your advantage. I don't have time to give examples now, but I have a ton.
You have to be able to get yourself to a place, emotionally, where you are nearly COMPLETELY DETACHED, so you can get into the "gamesmanship" mode that you need to be in order to aggressively fight an affair. (ADs help). If you can't get to that place, and this stuff is just going to set you OFF your game, then you need to stop listening.
Yes, thanks for that insight. I believe I can be completely detached. Yesterday evening, I did not talk with my wife at all. I like to know what's going on. I'd love to know how I can use the information to my advantage.
I notice my thread is up to page 10 and I may need to start a new thread, so if you are not able to post here, look for my new thread soon.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
Ken, you may want to update your signature with a brief outline/timeline of your situation so everyone can help you out asap... once a thread gets long people aren't able to keep up to date as easily
You don't need to create a new thread just because there's 10 pages.
Ken looks like you're doing OK...I've been out of the pic for a while, but will add more later...I agree about script- so don't loose heart, but def keep detached and dont drive yourself crazy
This has been going on for almost a year now. Have you enforced any boundaries at all? It just seems to me that your W does whatever she wants to do and never faces any consequenses. She clearly is not concerned about how you will react to her actions.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
No one has yet shown me how I can enforce boundaries legally.
What do you mean? What is it you have WANTED to do, but couldn't, because it was illegal?
Sorry Ken, but I call "B.S." on this. Show me where YOU have wanted to do something strong . .. firm . . . but simply COULDN'T, because it was illegal.
The fact is, YOU DON'T REALLY WANT TO, because you're afraid to stand up to your wife.
I couldn't legally "kick her out". I did have had her sleep on the sofa for awhile. What else can I do other than ignore her and go about my business? It's not so much that I am afraid to stand up to her, but I am more afraid that I might lose her for good by doing something stupid that I will regret.
Ken, youc an't force your wife to be faithful to you by law, there are NO LAWS against cheating in most of the US and throughout canada...
This is left to be governed by church organizations, family therapiss, and by individual conscience.
I understand there are a few states that penalize a spouse for cheating in family court and such, but by and large romantic and sexual commitments to one's spouse are not enforceable by law...
Note I am not a lawyer, this is just the info I have gathered
Boundaries need to be managed by you here, not by the court.
I couldn't legally "kick her out". I did have had her sleep on the sofa for awhile. What else can I do other than ignore her and go about my business? It's not so much that I am afraid to stand up to her, but I am more afraid that I might lose her for good by doing something stupid that I will regret.
if you continue to let her disrespect you, you WILL very likely lose her for good... she's subconsciously testing your commitment and manhood here...
Let me put this at another angle here for Ken ok pup?
Ken have you ever played Poker? Five Card Draw, Five Card Stud, Holdem is the most popular right now..
Basically your wife is RAISING you when she starts an affair.
YOU need to show her you have a hand here that she shoudl NOT be challenging... if you can't bluff her or GET some leverage someplace you have to fold your hand, and the marriage.
So you need leverage to persuade her to show her commitment.. the first item of leverage is just asserting yourself.
You don't ask her to stop cheating, you tell her you KNOW she is and you pack her things FOR her... show her you MEAN BUSINESS
You have kids yes? Do you think she will walk out on them? If you think she won't ever do that then this whole affair thing is a BLUFF.. CALL her on it by packing for her.. tell her she can have him or she can have her husband and kids... tell her to pick up the bag and go... see what she does...
The one I gave someoen else here, about telling his wife that he had a tool on her computer to log every conversation she had and every website she went to... that as well was a bluff... he didn't even have her password to install anything
No one has yet shown me how I can enforce boundaries legally
WHAT????
Then perhaps you should go back and read your first thread. If I remember correctly, you were given quite a bit of information about boundaries and I asked you more than once to talk to a lawyer or police officer to see where you stood about throwing her out, RO against OM, etc. Besides, it doesn't have to be something involving legal actions. I am talking about personal boundaries in the way she walks all over you. That is what I'm talking about!
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
It's hard, when someone's begging for someone on the board to tell them exactly what to do, and your advice to them is to stop letting other people tell them exactly what to do.
Too damned many people on here lately looking for OTHER people to do their dirty work for them. THESE ARE YOUR MARRIAGES, PEOPLE!!!
I was thinking something like that puppy, I was wondering why Ken wants to use the legal system to protect his marriage... sounds like a lot of hassle and not the most effective route... wh en was the last time the legal system protected anyone very well?
IDK, maybe "boundaries" is not understood on a personal relationship level. I copied a lot of quotes from Coach's thread on boundaries and I think I told him where to look it up. Sometimes I would think he didn't understand certain things "I" would say, and sometimes I thought it was fear of losing his W that prevented him from doing any action at all. Just about the time I think I might as well give up....then I find myself trying again.
I don't want Ken to give up on his M, but I want him to take a stand and stop allowing this woman and this OM to wipe their feet on him.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Yup, i hoenestly do think hes going through the deep freeze.. i had that early on... you realize your parnter is "on the fritz" so to speak, but you are afraid to Do ANYTHING beucase you think if you even BLINK the wrong way the whole thing will shatter into a million pieces...
Instinct is to "handle with care" but we know that don't work too well when an addiction is in play...
To back up a bit... Boundaries are about you, ken. About what YOU will tolerate, what YOU do. Not about what others do. Pack her bags! She may call your bluff, so what. What do you really have to lose? Your wife? She's already out of the marriage by having an affair.
Fear is a message telling you that you may not be prepared for what's coming. It is just a message. Rather than take that message and turn it into paralyzing worry, take concrete steps to become prepared.
Avermont recently did a fear exercise. She wrote the most awful things that could possibly happen. When re-read, you can see them in perspective. (Her were quite entertaining, sorry aver! it was funny!)
So, what is the most awful result of telling her to end the affair or get out!
(Have you read Harley or Dobson?)
"If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" 1st thread
OK it's been about a week since I last posted. My wife got herself a cell phone yesterday. She has not been seeing the OM, but she still talks to him every couple of days on the phone and they still say "I love you" and "I miss you" to each other. I went to church with my kids and my wife took the opportunity to talk to the OM for about an hour and a half. They mostly just chatted about random stuff, but when they finished the conversation, they told each other "I love you" and "I miss you".
I told her that I knew she was still talking to him and that I could not share her with another man and that she would have to stop talking with him or she would have to leave. I also went to the garage to get a luggage bag for her. She says I am "controlling" and called me a few names and started to look for an apartment on the internet. I left for awhile and she called the OM and he offered her his other house which is empty right now and said that he'd like to be with her but he wants to make sure his wife is working first, etc. My wife thanked him and sounded like she may actually move out soon. We'll see.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
Oh yes, I have it all recorded on a digital voice recorder. But the OM's wife is about as dumb as a box of rocks. I'm pretty sure she will confront him directly about it and the cat will be out of the bag about what I am doing (recording wife's conversations) and then I'll be seen as more "controlling". That's my main concern. The OM's wife knows their is an affair going on and is trying to fix things (although she doesn't really know how).
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
I'm pretty sure she will confront him directly about it and the cat will be out of the bag about what I am doing (recording wife's conversations) and then I'll be seen as more "controlling". That's my main concern.
And therein lies your problem, Ken. So long as "being seen as being controlling" is your main concern, instead of BUSTING THEIR AFFAIR, and SAVING YOUR MARRIAGE, then you'll be forever in passive fear mode.
Out of curiosity what's the worse that can happen here if you appear controlling?
Your wife might cheat on you? SHe's already doing that
Your wife might divorce you? She's already planning that too
Your life might fall apart? Hello?
Your FEARS are coming true anyways... you are already bringing that about BECAUSE you won't control the situation.
Your trading control for her freedom is going to cost you yoru marriage.
OK, sharing this info with the OM's wife may not help... But don't hold back because you are afraid of her. If you think this is gonna go away on its own you are a fool. I've been there it does NOT GO AWAY, it gets a LOT MORE PAINFUL for YOU after this point... we are TRYING to SPARE you that.
What IS the OMW doing to "fix" this? Buying him flowers and chocolates?
Allen, thank you so much for your on the spot advice - I am in a desperate situation right now. Your right, and I totally understand. I think my wife may choose to move out this morning because of my ultimatum (I tried to present it as a boundary - I think it may have come out sounding more like an ultimatum). She basically refuses to stop talking to the OM and I told her that if she wants to continue talking to the OM, she would have to leave. The OM has a spare empty house for her to stay in. She slept on the sofa last night. I'm starting to think I shouldn't have said anything. The night before was so much better.
I wouldn't be surprised if the OMW is buying flowers and chocolates, but she told me yesterday she is using something called Marriage Fitness.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
A question - Is it possible for my wife and the OM to "just be friends"? They supposedly are not seeing each other any more. Suppose they stop telling each other "I love you"? Am I being ridiculous to make such a big deal out of them talking on the phone?
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
She basically refuses to stop talking to the OM and I told her that if she wants to continue talking to the OM, she would have to leave. The OM has a spare empty house for her to stay in. She slept on the sofa last night. I'm starting to think I shouldn't have said anything. The night before was so much better.
"Better," how? Ken, "peace" is not the absence of conflict. You stood up for yourself, and you were absolutely right to do so. If she reacts poorly to that, then that is her choice, but you still did the right thing.
One of the misconceptions about DBing, in my opinion, is the "Do what works" thing. The problem is that people mis-define "works" as being "what doesn't make her/him angry" and "what makes her/him act nice towards me." Instead of as "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."
Sometimes one has to take a short-term "hit" in the "nice" department in order to solidify a healthier, longer-term gain.
A question - Is it possible for my wife and the OM to "just be friends"? They supposedly are not seeing each other any more. Suppose they stop telling each other "I love you"? Am I being ridiculous to make such a big deal out of them talking on the phone?
Ken,
BEST case, theirs is a one-sided love/EA, where this man is in love with your wife and pursuing her. So, in this case, do you REALLY think it would be emotionally healthy for you to live in a marriage where your wife carries on a friendship with such a man? Would YOU feel safe in such a relationship?
You have stated what your boundary is. ("I will not live in an open marriage.") Even IF this were "just a friendship" (and I don't think either one of us believes that it is, do you?) -- Your wife has, in effect, chosen to place that friendship ahead of her marriage, which is just plain WRONG.
Thanks so much for that answer, Puppy Dog Tails. I needed that reassurance. This is the hardest thing I have ever done and right now I am definitely taking the "hit". It's so hard not to think that I should leave well enough alone. But so many on here are saying the same thing (that I should stand up for myself) and I certainly don't want to become a statistic three or six months down the road.
While she is venting and fuming should I just leave her alone? I really don't know what to say to her right now. I kind of exploded last night and when I went to see her on the sofa, she looked at me and said, "What?!" I just said, "I just wanted to say 'good morning' and I'm sorry about last night".
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
Thanks so much for that answer, Puppy Dog Tails. I needed that reassurance. This is the hardest thing I have ever done and right now I am definitely taking the "hit". It's so hard not to think that I should leave well enough alone.
It wasn't "well enough," Ken. She was (and is) cheating on you.
I really don't know what to say to her right now. I kind of exploded last night and when I went to see her on the sofa, she looked at me and said, "What?!" I just said, "I just wanted to say 'good morning' and I'm sorry about last night".
YOU SAID THIS TO HER????
And that's exactly what you have done in the past, Ken, and it's enabling, and that sort of "pleasing/supplicating/rescuing" behavior has led to your current marital state. How's that workin' out for ya? (Dr. Phil)
YES, YOU LEAVE HER ALONE. If she says anything to you, you say "I'm sorry you feel that way."
Look, Ken, if you have an angry outburst, then apologize for your anger. And certainly, if you do something genuinely wrong, then apologize for THAT. But DO NOT apologize for fighting for your marriage, nor your boundary of "I will not live in an open marriage."
This supplicating behavior of yours not only DOESN'T WORK, I can assure you, she sees it as WEAK and UNATTRACTIVE.
"Look, I'm sorry I raised my voice last nite. I should learn to control my anger better. But I will NOT apologize for not being willing to live in a marriage where my wife carries on an inappropriate relationship with another man."
"I am sorry you feel that way, BUT I stand by what I said -- I refuse to stand here and watch my wife hurt our marriage and our children by committing infidelity - it is hurtful to this entire family."
You CAN apologize for yelling, but make it CLEAR you are NOT backing down from what your position is.
If you just say I am sorry, she will just think you are TAKING BACK the boundary.
I did this one a LOT in my home. It leaves them disarmed. On the one hand you are being sympathetic, but at the same time you are holding your dignity in tact... they often don't know how to respond to it.
Always include two points :
1. Offer her Love 2. Command her Respect
You always do 1, but you often leave out 2, and she exploits that.
I agree- and Sandi and others have said how disgusted they ar when a LBH does the flip flop b/c WAW is angry, or LBH FEARS he upset WAW.
You CAN'T do that- like PUP says, take the short-term hit...If you havent read NUTS it's stated pertty clear there...
I know it's tough, I pulled the same shirt...
I had my final vent w/ W a week ago, there was no appology or "hey are you mad..." Haven't spoken in a week...great 180 for me- truth darts, and healthy posturing...
Thanks Allen. You're right. I'll try to remember to do it that way from now on. I guess I've just been so afraid of her leaving thinking that it would be hard to get her back at that point. But like some have pointed out here, she already has one foot out of the door. I keep thinking it would be easier to keep her if I don't run her off.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
Thanks Allen. You're right. I'll try to remember to do it that way from now on. I guess I've just been so afraid of her leaving thinking that it would be hard to get her back at that point. But like some have pointed out here, she already has one foot out of the door. I keep thinking it would be easier to keep her if I don't run her off.
But your fear is leaving you ASSUMING you asserting yourself WILL run her off.
Its a poker game Ken, she's playing her hand and she's raising you bigtime... you can RAISE her back or fold..
There's no place for nice when you are playing poker. You need to show her you are in the game, or you are out of it.
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall Humpty Dumpty had a great fall All the King's horses And all the King's men Couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again
I'm often asked why people who have affairs must permanently end all contact with their affair partner if their marriage is to recover and heal. After all, they were often friends with the lover prior to the affair and they don't want to lose the friendship along with all the other losses an affair leaves in its wake.
There are lots of quick and easy answers to that question. Ongoing contact is offensive and painful for the spouse, the affair is likely to rekindle, true healing of the marriage can't begin while the involved spouse is still emotionally connected to the affair partner. They are all valid reasons and there are good scientific reasons to back them up. So what more is there to say? I had a sudden visual image the other day that spoke to me about this issue and I'm hoping I can relay it in a way that makes it clearer.
The vast majority of affairs occur with someone we know. A close friend, co-worker, or even family member. Prior to an affair, even relationships as close as long term friendships retain a level of distance. Shirley Glass (Not Just Friends, 2003) describes it well when she speaks about the walls healthy marriages have erected around the couple to protect them from outside risks.
Intimacy requires vulnerability. As an affair couple moves along the continuum from friendship to lover layers of protection are peeled away. Topics that were off limits become primary areas of conversation. Touch that is reserved for the marriage is now exchanged with someone outside the marriage. Looks that pass between lovers are different than those that pass between friends and that layer or protection is now peeled away as well. Little by little, the walls that surround and protect the marriage are breached. The layers of distance are stripped away leaving the partners open, vulnerable, and intimately known at a level deeper than merely friendship.
When couples connect at this level they come to know each other in a way that cannot be reversed. They cannot unknow what they have come to see beneath the layers. Nor can they disconnect entirely from the intimacy that knowing creates.
When the affair ends, as most do, the layers of protection are gone. Just as all the King's Horses and all the King's Men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again – neither can we replace the layers covering the deepest most vulnerable parts of our being. We have been seen and we cannot remove the memory of that vision. An orange, once peeled, is forever revealed. The same is true of the human heart and soul.
Years later, an old flame – long forgotten and newly met – can touch us in ways someone who has not known us so deeply has no power to do. We know the inner core of our former loves, and they ours. This is, at the primal level, the reason contact with an affair partner must permanently end. That knowing – that depth of connection – cannot be undone. To remain in contact is to ever put the marriage at risk. To remain in contact sabotages our ability to recreate that level of knowingness and intimacy with our mate.
This is why our spouses are so offended and threatened with continued or renewed contact. They intuitively sense the missing protective layers of unknowing. They instinctively recognize the connection that has been created and the danger is poses to the marriage. They know in their depths that as long as contact continues healing cannot fully occur.
Friends can easily become lovers. But the reverse is not true. Lovers cannot easily become "just" friends.
Great breakdown- I know that if opportunity had been presented to me I could intimately be w/ any of my ex's...for the very reasons mentioned above- former intimacy and such...
I now understand Allen's point about life-boating and how important it is to NOT communicate w/ any ex's for that very reason...
Ke, you have that level of intimacy...right now her windows and walls (S. Glass) are configured in a way where your M is neglected, her feelings for you and her level of intimacy w/ you is obscured...THEY ARE NOT JUST FRIENDS...if it's effecting your M it is parasitic and damaging.
No more appeasing her, let her be angry, pissed, hateful, etc...all of those things are examples of "passion" or deeper feelings...
Ken your W is the one who is controlling in the M.
You have been in this spot before whenever you tried to enforce a boundary and then if she hinted at leaving, you would back down...try to talk yourself into thinking "it would work itself out" and now you're trying to convince yourself that W & OM are "just friends".
It is showtime, Ken. You have got to "show" your W you mean busines this time. So what if she leaves? Let her move into OM's extra house. Let OM be financial responsible for her. This is a sure way for the A to be over and done with once and for all. I truly believe it will take them getting sick of each other for the A to end.
OM'sW is too much of a coward to do anything. She has no backbone and she's trying to use some program to improve her M ....which won't work when her H is in an A. So, I wouldn't even mess with her. You found that out a long time back when she allowed your W to stay at their house.
The time for testing has come. Your manhood will be tested, so stick to your guns and just let her walk right out the door. Do not act upset by her leaving, Ken. That is exactly what she's hoping. She does these thing in order to control you. Allow her to show the world & the church what her true colors are...and don't you dare rescue her. Her moving out does not mean there won't be any more chances at a future with her. But I have to wonder why you would want to share your life with a person who would do you like this.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I will second sandi's advice. Her moving into OM's house will give their romance some reality. A good dose of that won't hurt you. When she leaves, your response to the world should be..."She moved into a love nest OM set up for them." Being the OW can't be fun. When he's not there to meet her needs and you aren't either? Hmmmmm. not so romantic anymore. When she comes second ALL THE TIME? Not so romantic anymore. YOu stay out of it!
For now, I suggest you back off your insistence she change her behavior. You have stated your boundary. Now, be polite but no more trying to convince her. She is using that to justify her affair. The 180 list is around here somewhere...read it again.
Let go of the fear of her leaving. It will be ok. She is SUE from Harley's SAA. I'm sure your outcome will be the same. Maybe not until OMW puts up boundaries of her own or Your W gets sick of poor treatment from OM. Their A will end (my crystal ball tells me so!)
"If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" 1st thread
Sandi, thank you. I'm paying close attention. I don't want to screw it up again like I did the first time - although even then they at least did stop seeing other so much.
A question - a friend from church suggested that I enforce the boundary by blocking the phones rather than kicking her out under the theory that it would be easier to keep her than to get her back. I said that I'd post it on the forum to see what you guys thought about that. So what do you think?
I'm waiting to see if she makes any calls to the OM. That's my sign that I need to do something to enforce my boundary that I set yesterday.
You are wondering why I would want to share my life with a person like this, and that is very understandable. I have probably made her look pretty bad on this forum. But before the affair started, she was the model wife - a good mother, a great cook, beautiful, and she always tried to please me which I now see that I often took for granted. I also want what's best for the kids and they love us both dearly. It is also my conviction as a Christian that I should not divorce my wife - except perhaps for marital unfaithfulness. So if it gets to be a physical affair, I suppose at that point I would seriously consider it.
And thanks WhatNow for your input too - Who was Sue from Harley's SAA? I'd love to read about it.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
A question - a friend from church suggested that I enforce the boundary by blocking the phones rather than kicking her out under the theory that it would be easier to keep her than to get her back.
I don't see that as an example of enforcing a boundary. You lay down the boundary and then it is up to her to abide by that boundary.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I dunno Sandi, i encouraged Eyeore to handle his problem the same way - cut off the internet and phone.
Its a hollow boundary if you leave path open to violate it... he's pratically inviting it. These people are ADDICTED... setting down a boundary and expecting them to be rational isn't realistic I dont' think.
If your children were using the internet to view pornography I would think a parent would do more than simply tell them to stop, they would shut the access DOWN.
This is why we have a police force in addition to a legal system... the police show people that the gov't MEANS BUSINESS when they lay down the law.
Laying down a law and not policing it hardly is effective or convincing that you are serious is it?
I am not wondering! I think most of us know too well the "change" WS's go through in the "fog". I am right with you in our sitches, maybe a bit ahead of you on the timeline. We all love and are deeply attached to our WS's, at least who they were. It is difficult to understand what has happened to them. They look like our S. Sometimes, they even act and sound like our S. But their ability to make sense and reason is GONE!
Surviving an affair by Harley. Sue is his example WS. His ideas towards affair busting are very similar to DBing. His Plan A is a bit too "doormatty" for me, but being the better option and 180ing during this time is a good attitude so that when WS does leave, they leave with a positive impression of you. On that note, stay calm, polite, and truth dart her! If she does leave, cut her phones and all financial benefit of your M.
"If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" 1st thread
Exactly, you set the boundary, if she violates it, you cut her off.
I think particulary in Ken's case making an active showing that he will ACT to protect his home, his children, his family as a whole, from outside interference is a firm statement.
Locking up the phone and the internet is the same as locking your door at night.. its to keep the creeps OUT of your HOME
Well Sunday was a fairly quiet normal day. I was waiting to see what my wife would do - if she would still try to contact the OM. Today when I got home from work, she gave me a nice meal like she always does (no greeting though as usual lately). Then I saw a message she wrote to the OM saying she'd call him tomorrow and then I told her that I needed to talk to her.
I gave her a form letter for her to send to the OM which reads "Ken and I want you to know that out of respect and love for my husband and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that Ken did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay Ken for the pain I have caused him, I will do my best to become the wife he has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship." But then she just ripped it up and threw it in the garbage. She then left to take our oldest daughter to music class and will be back in about an hour or so.
So unfortunately it appears the time has come for me to ask her to leave which I believe she will do since the OM has offered her his second empty house. I just hope and pray that I'm doing the right thing. I have heard some say it's easier to keep her than to get her back. Lord help me! I am so not ready for this. Am I doing the right thing?
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
So when whe leaves (if she leaves) go NC unless it involved wee one and that's a wrap...nothing more you can do than cut her off, protect yourself and your family...and be prepared for whichever way the chips fall...
In my sitch, I laid down the law, telling W to leave- "but I have nowhere to go..."
Once she met OM2- she didn't mind sleeping at 3 diff houses- in fact she loved it b/c all of her friends could see what a tyrant I was and she felt fully supported to have her way...UGH
Ken you are a man and you're doing what you need to do...now, don't back down, ask her to leave and be the best dad you can be...no apologies, NC
Hold on to you NUTs- non negotiable, un alterable Terms...this book put much into perspective for me...very easy and quick read, and life-changing if truly contemplated and embraced.
I told my W; that if she wanted to act like a single woman then she had to live like one too. That the kids and I would NOT be disrespected in OUR home. So you have a choice, live like a mother and a wife; or find another option.
I like the way you put that. I wanted to ask some people how long the wife stayed gone and I really wish I could somehow know the success rate of this plan.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
Well..don't look to me for long term success on keeping a M together. My W came back that first night all tears and apologies. 5 months later, she moved out and hasn't come back.
But I stood my ground on principle and I couldn't control her anyway. The mistake that I might have made was not doing the right things to change me. It might not have mattered; but it certainly wouldn't have hurt. Because of my W's personality; my changes probably wouldn't have had much effect.
I found DB about 2 months before she moved out; but it didn't keep her home. DB did wonders for me personally.
I've tried DB'ing after she moved out; but she was never around. Too busy living the single life and working on finding her next man. See my W had an A 5 months prior to separation. I successfully busted that A; but she went an infidelity spree looking for her next man. When she finally found one that she could charm; she stuck with him. He came around after we separated and didn't know that she was still married.
About the time the W started to come back around; sniffing to see if the road home was open, she came up pregnant.
Here we are one year later; just about to submit our settlement paperwork.
KEEP THIS IN MIND...don't read into my sitch as evidence your plan won't work. My wife is a special breed and not typical of most WAS who leave for another person. She left and didn't have an OM; my W used sex to coerce someone into a R She was just living single and anyone would do at the moment.
So I still believe that I made the right move in giving her that ultimatum. She has to be responsible for her own choices; but I don't have to underwrite and finance them. She chose to live that life under a different roof or roofs. I got the chance to detach. What I really needed was a debriefing...
I haven't asked my wife to leave yet because we have to go together today to get our house loan modification papers signed in front of a notary. I plan on asking her after that. Yesterday I told her that a fellow church friend knew some dark things about the OM's past and she really blew up at me and called me several names and was throwing her hands in front of my face and yelling. I actually remained calm this time and I got it all recorded. Perhaps I should have just not said anything. I hate the idea of having her leave on such a sour note and such a negative last impression of me.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
I hate the idea of having her leave on such a sour note and such a negative last impression of me.
If they had a positive opinion of you; they wouldn't leave.
I certainly wasn't positive when I made myself clear to my W. I was serious! Her impression of you is HER deal. You have to do this for YOU and YOUR kids. It's for your own sanity. If this continues unabated in your household; you will go crazy.
Ken, you make sure you can leave her alone and not be pleading with her to return to you once she leaves. If you don't have the stength to stick to it...don't try b/c she will really be bad after that. Don't do this thinking it is a gimmick to get her back. Do it b/c she is dishonoring the M.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks Sandi, I understand. I noticed that today she was doing research to see if it is a criminal offense to read someone's email and record phone calls, etc. I can see that she is REALLY mad at me about that. A friend in church says I should stop doing that and that it is hurting my sitch. But that's the only way I know if she is talking to the OM and she is.
I'm not quite sure yet if I should ask her to leave. I think I could maintain limited contact. We have kids together so trying to have no contact would be difficult.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
I wouldnt worry about it too much...Maybe I should though...oh well.
No worries about telling her about OM's dark side-
Sure its not what she would want to hear, BUT Allen stresses that a LBH stress the dangers / "certainty" pf an A failing- so that you cannot be blamed for co-signing---also should OM resort to his past darkness, at least you lovingly warned W.
Should she move- Sandi is correct, STAND BY IT- do not let her back, no matter what...only on your terms.
My W moved in and out several times...it hurt every time to watch her leave again.
Just be strong and know that it's the right thing to do...you cant make her want to stay, but if she's disrespecting the M...she shouldn't be there...
She'll prob pack EVERYTHING to make a statement...my W was leaving for a weekend and she packed 4 suitcases- naturally I said WTF and cried like a baby...she was back 2 days later...then came home drunk a few days after that saying, "I just can't do it."
Eff them... there will be mind games and mind F*(^s...you are SUPERCOOL w/ all of them
And if not- thats the way to act as if...
They are confused, you are not...they want validation for leaving...just dont give it to her
Your W sounds like she is daring you to do anything. She is so bold with her rebellion she sounds as if she is wanting to see if you have the b@lls to kick her out.
I did not mean that you were never to have contact with her, but I meant that you were not to be trying to sweet talk her into reconciling once she leaves. If she cannot reconcile for the right reasons, then it would all be for nothing.
I really think that she and OM will end their A once she is depending fully on him and he has to deal with her and his W, but you have to make this decision on what you think you can or can't do.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I went to church with my kids again and when I got home I noticed that she had spend about 2 hours on the phone with the OM again. But this time I didn't confront her about it. I've started reading a book called "Hold Me Tight" and got the idea to try to talk to her and express my feelings about the distance between us. We talked for quite awhile and talked about what the Bible says about divorce in Romans 7, Dt. 24, and 1 Cor. 7, which she brought up because I have learned the hard way not to bring that up. She expressed how she is disagrees with God for the viewpoint on marriage and divorce expressed in the Bible.
We also talked about how I saw the OM as pursuing her which she also brought up, and she listened to all my concerns. In the end, she seemed to decide to give me another chance and has started sleeping in the bed again. and seems much more loving towards me as of now.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
Ken, I own that book. The introduction of the book Johnson says quite clearly that Hold Me Tight approach does NOT work when an affair is taking place.
Hold Me Tight is a refined approach and will work with MWD appraoch, but the author warns you in the beginning of the text that it will NOT help if an affair is underway.
You should be reading Harley and Tuppy, and others who specialize in infidelity.
THe issue isn't how loving she is twoards you, it is how much access OM has. She and many people in affairs try to play BOTH their LBS AND their affair partner... ask 4luv about that one.. she can confirm this.
Your wife's closeness to you is not an indicator that her affair is over. She needs to learn HONESTY, if she isnt' offering you THAT, then she's still playing you.
I take it that you decided not to ask her to leave after the house loan modification papers were notarized? I don't know how many times you have been back and forth with her with "talks". She seems to know what to do to teach you certain things not to do (you said you had learned your lesson) but you don't seem to know how to teach her certain things not to do. She knows how to get you to suffer the consequences of doing any action she doesn't like. Can you not think of anyway to apply it to her? I wish you could, b/c this talk won't do anymore than the other talks did.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Don't get me wrong Ken, Hold me Tight is an excellent book, I would definitely put it in my Top Five... But it belongs on the shelf until the OM is GONE... The Author herself warns you about that.
Honesty is what's missing in your marriage right now... NOT physical closeness...
If you have Physical Closeness but she's lying to you.. You are being PLAYED... played in a very dangerous and hurtful game.
Thanks. I've heard of Harley with the Marraige Builder's program, but who is Tuppy?
My wife seems VERY concerned now that I told her that early on I noticed him checking her out physically. She thought he was more respectful than that. I told her that I'm sure that if she asked him about it, he would deny it and she seems to realize that. I also told her that back when the OM and I were friends, he would take a great interest in good-looking women and make long conversations with them, and I think she is also quite concerned about that. Don't know why it did not occur to me to tell her these things before. Back then I trusted her and wasn't worried about it, but I should have told her when these new problems started. I'm waiting to see now how things progress from here. I still hate the thought of asking her to leave where she may easily end up in a physical affair, so I guess I'm trying to exhaust every other option first.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
Ken, many people do not seem to understand that when a W is involved in an emotional affair, it is too late to use these types of books like you mentioned. It is like a lot of people wait until their D is scheduled to hit the courtroom and then try to read a marriage improvement book. They don't need a "how to improve" book...they need a how to stop a divorce book.
You just cannot deal with a W who is in an affair--in the same fashion that you would deal with a W who is not in an affair. It is like comparing two completely different problems! You have to deal with a W in an A completely different than other troubled realtionships.
I think you feel powerless and think you can talk around the problem. I don't believe talk is going to work.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Love As An Excuse For Infidelity Penny R. Tupy 2003
So often in my work with spouses whose mates are in the midst of an affair I hear the anguished fear that because he or she claims to be, "in love" with the affair partner, it must mean that the marriage is over and the cheating lovers are meant to be together. Soulmates - because they now feel the intense passion of a fantasy relationship.
But of course they are, "in love." That's what an affair is. It's what the addiction is. It's an emotional response (without rationality, commitment or long term thinking) that causes us to do things that are not in our best interests and that hurt other people and destroy what we have worked hard to build in our lives - things like homes and families.
The idea that love should be the deciding factor is any of this is completely erroneous. As is the idea that love is some magical chemistry between two people. It's neither of those things. Romantic love really is nothing more than a mathematical equation. Spend enough time with someone meeting intimate needs of conversation, affection, admiration, and play time - and you will fall in love with that person. Assuming of course that they are not doing things you find offensive or objectionable at the same time.
The interesting thing about new infatuation/love is that we are blinded by the offensive or objectionable things at first. I think the pleasure of having needs met by someone new captures our attention to the point that we block out the less desirable traits. But like any addiction, what worked at first to create a high soon becomes not enough - we want more. When that happens in romantic relationships the irritating things seem to grow in proportion as the pleasure from getting needs met slackens. Unless real change takes place at this time - unless the real work of building a relationship kicks in - romantic love will wane.
This is when the instinct to demand more, to be rude or even to lose our tempers takes over. This is when the internal shift from, "You are so wonderful, what can I do for you," to "You aren't doing enough for me and I'm not willing to do anything for you - you jerk," occurs. This is where real marriage happens, when we move from - feeling like it- to making the commitment to doing what it takes to craft a truly connected and compatible relationship. This is where real love is grown.
For those, who have never honored commitment when the going got tough this is where they begin to bail. So, yes, I am sure that affair partners are in love. Does that mean it's the right place for them or that they have met 'the one'? Of course not. It means that they are in the habit of going for the feeling rather than committing to doing the work of making a truly successful relationship. Unless something greatly changes for these men and women, they will do the same again, and again. They will not find lasting happiness until they get it that marriage is more than feeling. Being in love is important, but staying there is what separates the men from the boys.
Be an advocate for marriage. When you hear of infidelity, take a stand. Refuse to condone affairs and "friendships" that threaten the integrity of the marriage bond. Educate your friends and families on the seriousness of becoming involved outside the marriage. Love is not an excuse for betrayal and abandonment. Love based on that foundation is like a house built on sand.
You just cannot deal with a W who is in an affair--in the same fashion that you would deal with a W who is not in an affair. It is like comparing two completely different problems! You have to deal with a W in an A completely different than other troubled realtionships.
I think you feel powerless and think you can talk around the problem. I don't believe talk is going to work.
Yup Sandi, I try to put Infideilty with these sorts of problems :
Compulsive Gambling Alcoholism Drug Addiction Criminal behaviour Sociopathic/Borderline P behaviours Infidelity
These above are illnesses that require specialized treatment and a specaliized skill set - a traditional IC or FT is not equipped to deal with these. You cannot deal with them as PART of the marriage. These problems above must be dealt with FIRST before a marriage can safely be reconcilled and work done to repair the marriage itself.
You can try to negotiate with her, but infidelity is awfully addictive and I haven't seen that approach have much if any success.
Infidelity and other addictions or destructive behaviours need to be directly addressed and treated... you can try talking, but most often she's just going to do the following :
1. Tell you she's confused and try to keep the affair going as long as she can 2. Lie when you catch her and get fed up 3. Make a commitment to you and then fall back to the affair again 4. Sneak around until you catch her again 5. Tell you she's confused... (go back to step 1)
You can try to reason with an addict, but there aren't many documented cases of much success there... particularly that last long term.
If your wife is still confused about what love even MEANS then you need to address THAT. Your wife thinks love is excitement rather than active commitment. She's been watching too many movies...
My wife seems VERY concerned now that I told her that early on I noticed him checking her out physically. She thought he was more respectful than that
Now wait a minute. She is seriously messed up or else she thinks she can feed you anything and you'll believe it! This is a man who is cheating on his W and telling your W all this unscriptural stuff like how much he wants to be with her.
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I still hate the thought of asking her to leave where she may easily end up in a physical affair,
This blows me away. I just can't understand your thinking. You hate to ask a woman who says she doesn't love you and wants to be with OM to leave b/c you are afraid it will turn to a PA?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
This blows me away. I just can't understand your thinking. You hate to ask a woman who says she doesn't love you and wants to be with OM to leave b/c you are afraid it will turn to a PA?
Ken, I am trying to figure out who is in more denial here.. your wife that`her affair is at all constructive or has any hope of a future, or you denying there is greater risk in asserting yourself than reasoning with an addict while she cheats on you behind your back.
Ken. Your wife has an addiction. You do realise she is NOT capable of constructive rational thought while she's in that state yes?
You are trying to avoid this becoming a PA, but the LONGER you allow her to CONTINUE the greater chance she will go to his bed.... the more contact she has with him the closer she gets to him and his bed... you can try to talk her out of that, but its the LONG route and the route with less success...
And there is a strong chance that any conversation she has with you that looks constructive, is just her humouring you to drag this out until she can sleep with him.
In your earlier post, you indicated your wife DISAGREES with the Biblical viewpoint of marriage and divorce. Take some time to think about that in regard to her emotions vs what she "knows".
Since my wife seems to be saying that she wants to finally give me a second chance, I suggested to her that we block the OM's phone and she said she want to wait on that. I'm hoping that we can get that done this evening. If she agrees to that, I think that is great progress.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
I don't know if this is proper technique or not, but if my wife said to me she wants to wait on that, I would have asked her why she felt that way. Personally, if my wife said that I would be curious how she felt.
A wife should not stall on any movement like this. It hurts you, and she's supposed to minimize any new pain out of you at this poing and allow you to gain confidence in the commitment she's showing.
I agree. That's why when she didn't agree to block the number yet, I would have asked why. Sometimes when you hear yourself talking, you realize that you aren't making sense (or commitment).
Her delaying, and talking about "I think about it" is saying to you that she feels she has all the cards. That you want her and she knows it, but she's "evaluating" the decision...
She's cake eating like a greasy pig.
He probably should have said "Don't bother, its OK wont be necessary". She does not expect this, and her ego may hear that response as getting combative, when WE all know it makes complete perfect sense.
my wife seems to be saying that she wants to finally give me a second chance,
Why do you need a second chance, Ken? You are not the one having an affair. What about her? Is she at all concerned if she gets a second chance or not? No, she isn't b/c she has you eating out of her hand.
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she said she want to wait on that.
Well, there you go......I think that answered that.
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I'm hoping that we can get that done this evening.
Don't hold your breath.
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If she agrees to that, I think that is great progress.
I think if she agreed, it would simply be to throw you off guard b/c she is not through with OM.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
She wants a free pass Ken, but from the look of your thread here, you are gonna give it to her...
Ken. You get what you pay for and a marriage is no different... she has to EARN her way back in and you are holding the door open pleading with her to dance through...
If she gets IN the marriage again for free she will LEAVE it just as quickly... you have shown her she can COME and GO as she pleases... IF there's no price for leaving, she WILL DO it again.
This guy needs to learn how to play poker - bigtime.
She actually gave me permission to block the OM's phone which I promptly did on all the phones that I could, but we have two cell phones that do not have that feature, so I called the OM's wife to have her block all of our numbers and I think she did. Now the problem is, my wife heard part of the conversation and is mad about it saying I am controlling. Moreover, she still has him on her Facebook and can communicate with him by email. She doesn't seem to want to block those. She seems very upset with me right now.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
Make a list of all the things you want blocked and present it all at once. Include a No Contact letter in that deal. Otherwise, she will just appease you to deceive you. I have been there. Ask for complete transparency, so you can learn to trust, not control.
It doesn't seem she is ready for this. Be strong. Nothing less will work.
"If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" 1st thread
So she gets upset at you, so what? You won't die. And, I've never known of a LBH who has died from being called controlling (WAW's favorite name calling). I see it stepping up and taking charge of your family that is being infected with a sinful cancer that will eat away everything it touches if not stopped. God put you over your family as its protector, Ken, and that may appear that you are controlling.....so what?
It is a waste of time to block some of the means of contact and not "all" of them. That was the only reason she agreed to blocking that phone is b/c she knew she had other ways of reaching OM. That's is like her saying she doesn't think you are bright enough to figure that out! Another sign of disrespect.
You are wanting her to sweetly agree with all decisions that is made....but I don't think she is going to be 100% there. She will hold back on part b/c she is not over the A. That is why you must lay down the boundary (and if she calls it controlling...so be it)and she can either respect it or leave.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
It's been about a week since I blocked the phones and I don't think she's communicated with the OM for about a week even by email. She still doesn't seem very interested in my affection though. I tried to hold her hand Saturday evening and she pulled her hand away. We met a lady at a church potluck that has been divorced and was sitting next to her ex-husband and two teenage kids in the potluck. Later my wife said something like, "See, that's how it's supposed to be done."
This morning I was on my way to work and my wife called me on my cell phone asking me to return because she was sick, so I returned home and also went to get her some medicine. So today I am home and she is laying in bed sick.
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
Even if she ends the A, she will not be ready for physical touch for quite some time. You have to stop trying to do that. She is still thinking about leaving b/c of her finding "examples" to point out to you at the potluck.
First step is her ending the A once and for all. Then she will have to go through the grieving process, and then she will have to get the right mind set before she will be interested in any kind of physical touching.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks Sandi, I'm just excited that she may be ending the affair and putting us on the right track. I understand and appreciate what you are saying about her going through a grieving process and I am willing to suffer through it. I have to keep that in mind when she rejects my affection. Is this a good time to start trying to give her romantic gestures like flowers or cooking for her, etc. or should I wait on stuff like that? (I have a feeling that flowers may still be rejected.)
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
Is this a good time to start trying to give her romantic gestures like flowers or cooking for her, etc. or should I wait on stuff like that? (I have a feeling that flowers may still be rejected.)
No, do not do any of that b/c you will need to continue to hold back from any romantic gestures of any kind until she is completely over the OM. You saw how she rejected holding hands with you (which I think is a romantic gesture) and she will reject any other pursuing action. I promise you it will backfire if you try it.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Back to square 1 again. I thought we were back on the right track, but after about a week and a half since I blocked the phones (except for the cell phones which the OM's wife blocked because I couldn't) my daughter told me that my wife was talking on her cell phone with the OM again, so apparently the OM unblocked the phone. Very frustrating!
My wife is asking for a divorce and I don't completely understand why.
