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#1906705 01/02/10 04:48 PM
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I think with the start of a new year and a new decade, and given that the moderators have stated they'd like us to self-manage our threads so they don't become too long and untenable, I am starting this new thread.

If you want to follow the long dreary road that led to this place, here it is:

King of Pain
King of Pain, 2
If I Could Change The World...
Used To The Pain
She'll Think Of Me
Walk It Off
Winner At A Losing Game
Better Now
One Slip
Unstoppable


As usual, I'm using a song title for my thread.

Things That Matter
Rascal Flatts

Sometimes he lets that boss get in his head
He can't see past that mountain of deadlines on his desk
Five o'clock, he's the last one out of the gate
And he gets cut off, flipped off, ticked off, out on the interstate
And he wonders why this world won't leave him alone
Till he hears that little voice holler, "Daddy's home"

Things that matter
Things that don't

She's held on to that grudge all her life
And thirty years of anger, since her dad walked out that night
She thinks of all the moments that he's missed
All the birthdays, ballets, first dates, it seems too much to forget
She gets that call that said he don't have long
She walks in, he starts crying, the past is gone

Things that matter
Things that don't

Time ain't on our side
Don't wanna leave this world with
"Why didn't I? Why didn't I?"
Yeah, why didn't I?

Sometimes I take on this world by myself
Thinkin' I got all the answers, don't need anybody's help
When God was right there waiting for me all along
To fall down on my knees, surrender all

Things that matter, things that don't
Things that matter, things that don't


I hope the title for this one will keep me focused on the right priorities as I move forward from this point, to begin another new chapter in "the book of my life".

Having said that, is anyone up for a little of the dog that bit them? Yes? No? Either way, the bar's still open, and I've got coffee and soft drinks too.


Me: 49
WAW: 47
S11, S7
Years Married/Together: 17/18
Bomb: 6/15/07
Separation: 7/6/07
D: 4/3/09

Real love is a decision.
Marriage is a commitment.
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The line of arguments I am reading (and responding to) over in Kerry and Gypsy's threads are interesting -- and they could not have come at a more pointed moment right now. The issues touch on things going on right now in my brother's own deteriorated marital situation.

I mentioned in my last journaling post about the developments in my brother's sitch. His W, my SIL, has come out openly now with her relationship with another man. My brother and SIL (STBXSIL) are still married, and yet she's already dating and has now publicly stated she is in a R. I had all along suspected that she was already involved with someone else when she started making all these pronouncement to me and my family as to why she and my brother had to end their M. I am almost 100% certain she had already been having an EA with this creepy guy before the separation.

Typical WAW behavior. And she seemed to honestly think she was fooling me during our talks. I said nothing during those times, just offered a few questions to feel her out and to basically let her hang herself with her own words. And then she went and opened a dialog with my own ex -- and then tried to play it down, as if it were really nothing and she wasn't really trying to ally with my ex. I know my ex, and she undoubted contacted my SIL first, especially when she learned my SIL has split from my brother. xW swore to me just days before that she would never, ever contact my side of the family and try to bad mouth me in front of them -- but xW is a proven liar, repeatedly so. So I am sure they have been trading dirt on me and my brother. That's no big deal to me for my sake. But my brother doesn't deserve it, especially not from my ex.

SInce then I haven't really talked much to SIL. I am certain she's figured out by know that I've got her number. And that's just sad, because I don't hate her -- I just think she's screwed up in the head right now. She had deluded herself like so many WAS's that the grass is greener on the other side, while her children, my nieces and nephew, will miraculously do so much better with their parents D'ed.

I think she's a classic WAW in MLC. There's been no animosity or hatred between her and my brother. They were good parents to their children. The still get along quite well despite the separation, cooperate and co-parent as best as I've ever seen. But SIL is undoubtedly spoiled and selfish, and she wants more than what my brother has been willing to give her. She wants to "trade up" and seek her own happiness (through another man, yeah right) all the while in complete denial about how the children's lives are going to be stunted as a result of this.

I call B-S on anyone and everyone who tries to tell me D is better for children. That is just wishful thinking.

I talked to B, my youngest brother (unmarried), to get the scoop on our other brother, K. He used to be good friends with SIL since she's actually closer to his age than she is K. (She's about 38 but the guy she's seeing now is older than I am!) My brother B is thoroughly p'ed off at her and won't talk to heror my brother K anymore. She lied to B and snowed him early in the S -- B is actually more upset with her than K is.

I had a long heated conversation with K, at last, on Saturday. It's worse than I thought. He is usually non-communicative with me about non-trivial matters. He's the middle child and always seeks to avoid conflict. He doesn't like to get into heavier conversations with me or anyone, although he will with his life-long buddies. But K is not only defending his W but is angrily defensive for her sake.

While I can and did commend K for accepting ownership for his failures in their M, it alarms me that he is going way to far -- he is taking 100 percent of the blame for the failure of their M. He said that he alone is responsible for why they are ending their M because he has been a terrible H and a poor father -- he wants SIL to accept no blame for this. I know that K is not being honest here, especially about his fatherhood, because I know for a fact how absolutely outstanding he has been all these years in raising their three kids. So I probed further and asked him what he had possibly done to deserve such a low appraisement of himself. Had he been fooling around, cheating on SIL? No. Had he been abusive with her? No. Had he been abusing drugs or alcohol? No, although he had at one time been hitting the bottle a bit more than he should have, but he has cut it out practically entirely in the last year (mostly for his huge fitness kick: marathon running.) So, what was it? Basically, he can't make SIL happy.

It didn't take long for me to start getting a bit angry. After hearing my brother castigate himself and rebuff any attempt by me to get him to attenuate his stance that SIL was totally blameless, to concede that she owned at least 50% of their M failure -- and with him getting verbally abusive at the very suggestion -- I was furious to hear how wimped out and self-effacing he was for someone who was obviously taking advantage of his foolishness. SIL has managed to brain-wash my brother into accepting full and complete culpability for her ejecting from their M. It is maddening.

Folks, the backstory to all of this adds up to an insane situation. SIL has borrowed money from my mother -- money that my mom cannot afford -- not to cover their mortgage on the family home, as SIL made the story out to her, but to help renovate the home SIL inherited from her own mother so SIL could move into it during the separation. And SIL is going to force the family home to be liquidated at D time and leave my brother K with the task of not only having to find his own place to live, but to have to pay our mother back out of his share alone. But then, it gets worse, SIL is claiming that because she put $50,000 of her inheritance from her grandmother into the family home at the time they bought it, she gets to take that straight off the top of the equity before the 50-50 split. In most jurisdictions that $50k is considered a marital gift and considered a part of the marital property to be split.

But my brother is not going to defend himself and is going to go right along with whatever SIL plans. He won't even think to hire a L -- he won't hear of it!

So while I tried to act diplomatic with him and tried to validate part of his stance, I found myself getting angry for his sake.

And then I heard that SIL was already involving their kids with her OM. And my brother not only did not voice his objection, even to me who would have lent a sympathetic ear, but he told me in a very angry tone that I and everyone else needs to leave SIL alone.

I was flabbergasted that he was okay with his STBXW introducing their impressionable D17, S11 and D7 to her new boyfriend while she is still M'ed to their father. Especially my teenage niece -- what message is her mother sending to her about M and R with men?

I asked my brother about why they are failing to provide proper and moral role models for these children. My brother said, almost as if he was trying to convince himself, that he thinks his kids will do just fine.

I tried to reason with him, to get him to understand there was much more at stake here, and that the both of them were being d*mn fools. But K is just too lost and confused and far too trusting of someone who is, given the way she is moving, going to throw him to the wolves. He's got this martyr complex.

I told him that he is in danger not only of losing his W but the love and respect of his children for not fighting for them and their family.

By that time we were both pretty much fed up with each other. So he abruptly ended the call, hung up on me. He later tried to call back, but I didn't take it. We were both on opposites sides of the fence -- which is odd since I thought I was meeting him half way in the middle; but he just went to such an extreme. And both of us were still a bit riled by the other, so I thought it best to let us cool off a while and not talk anymore that day.

I wasn't so much angry, but shocked and saddened by his enabling behavior -- he is enabling his W to leave him for another man, and to take him for everything he's got.

I have reflected on this. I believe my brother is suffering from a form of depression. I remember that I too took on all the blame and accepted all the faults that xW had laid on me for the first couple of weeks following the bomb. Fortunately for me, my naturally cynical side eventually got the better of me, as I began to see the mismatch between my spouse's words and deeds. It's been much longer for K, and he's still enveloped in her fog.

I have speculated and pondered how SIL has manipulated my brother, demoralized him to the point that he's now putty in her hands. She's had him totally shut down in their bedroom for over two years now, by her own admission, and he's so ready to find his way out and seek release that he'll do practically anything to give her the D and the terms she wants. I know a little about being shut down like that -- I've been there, done that, bought the t-shirt even.

But my poor, dumb brother refuses to open his eyes. I wish the both of them would just wake the frak up!

Okay, I've already written a veritable book here on this, and there is undoubtedly much more to come in their drama, although I really hope I'm wrong. I will continue to pray for those two and their kids. Maybe a miracle will happen and they'll each see the light, but I've seen this story too many times before and it just doesn't look good.


Me: 49
WAW: 47
S11, S7
Years Married/Together: 17/18
Bomb: 6/15/07
Separation: 7/6/07
D: 4/3/09

Real love is a decision.
Marriage is a commitment.
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NC, I'm so sorry to hear of your brother's sitch. So much like ours and many others here. I do think the WAS tend to be good at making us feel guilty, but with time I think we do realize that wasn't the case. My X had me feeling literally like a horrible person. When I went to the C the first time, the first thing I told her was that I was a horrible person. It took me a while here and in C to realize I was not seeing things clearly.

Do you think your brother would consider C? Esp. if he does have depression, but even if not, sounds like his self-esteem and PMA are in need of strengthening. Is he active in his church also? They helped me a lot also. Prayers are a good idea too; I'll add him to mine also.....


Last edited by karen43; 01/05/10 03:01 AM.

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As the saying goes...You can only help someone who wants help.

I am guessing that your brother may be thinking that if he is docile or the blame guy that maybe it will win her back. Not so. He needs to show a backbone. He need to have strength, honor and leadership right now. But you know that.

Here is a bit of advice my cousin gave me when I informed him about my W exposing the kids to her affair with OM. I took his advice and retained a very good lawyer. Maybe your brother could eventually be compelled to protect himself, his kids and his dignity...

Quote:
Oh JEEZ!! Good Gawd that's a shock.

I'm sorry to hear you've been going through so much cr@p. I know that what I'm reading about here is just the tip of the iceberg.

As you know I've been around the block a few times. I also have spent a lot of time around the job box with construction workers, the majority of which seem to be divorce prone, so you might imagine that I have heard all kinds of horror stories. I've written a couple myself. If there is one piece of advice that I would give you, is strike hard and strike fast.

Do NOT show mercy in the beginning. There is always time for that later if she comes around but keep that big gun loaded and cocked.

You WILL regret ignoring these words.

Be the exception to the rule. Don't be the guy (because there are lots of them) that says later: "I wish I would have listened to you but I didn't think she was like that"

Or "I really got f'd" "I should have" ...blah blah blah. I'm not saying hammer her right out of the gate. But you need to be prepared to do so in the office with your lawyer. You can always call him off if things don't go your way but it doesn't work the other way around.

I'm talking change the locks, file restraining orders. LOCK her out of your life until YOU can dictate how far back into your life and your wallet YOU are willing to let her into.

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Quote:
Is he active in his church also?


No, not at all. He's been agnostic for many years now. That was even one of the flimsy reasons SIL stated that she found impossible with my brother. I agree it's a problem, and I have been trying to work on K for some time now, using some subtle logic from Christian Apologetics and helping him to open his heart to what God can do in his life. But no, even if he remains an unbeliever, the Bible does not support SIL's rationale for ending their M.

I did suggest C. In fact, I told him that they both are in serious need of C'ing. She took him to her personal IC, but that was all to just convince K to accept SIL's side of things. She and the IC now have my brother convinced he has Asperger's and too damaged empathically to be married in the first place. My brother needs his own IC, someone who is not so obviously biased in favor of SIL's schemes.

And no, K is not AS. Of we three brothers, he's the one who has always had close friends and fits in with so many people; no social ineptness, and very sensitive to others. I used to admire his rapport with his children.

But to hear him now... he thinks he is so messed up. They have done such a number on his head...


Me: 49
WAW: 47
S11, S7
Years Married/Together: 17/18
Bomb: 6/15/07
Separation: 7/6/07
D: 4/3/09

Real love is a decision.
Marriage is a commitment.
Joined: Aug 2007
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Thanks, I appreciate, Kerry. You're right. If my brother doesn't want my help or my advice, I can't help him. All I can do is stand by him and wait until/if he sees he needs help. I suspect though he will be more likely to turn to friends who don't really have a moral compass and adhere to more worldly views about M and D.

My brother doesn't need the advice of unwise people, be they friends or not. He needs to C'ing and he needs legal representation and advice.


Me: 49
WAW: 47
S11, S7
Years Married/Together: 17/18
Bomb: 6/15/07
Separation: 7/6/07
D: 4/3/09

Real love is a decision.
Marriage is a commitment.
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Hey Code..

It's sad to read about your brother's situation and I can understand your helplessness in watching this train wreck.

Individual counseling would be very helpful in this case. I've had counseling in the past but had to be repeatedly whacked over the head even after finding out that the former spouse was living with his mistress to finally go. The encouragement came from all sides. The message I finally heard, "You have a choice in how you process this.. going to a professional and using the tools provided or mucking through it on your own. If you had a broken bone would you try to fix it yourself or go to a doctor. Your decision."

May I suggest you stop trying to be the avenging angel and DB your brother. He needs someone to listen to. He's in a world of hurt and confusion. Two of my siblings were great during my divorce. Another brother who was just as wise wasn't. He let his own emotions cloud his concern for me. And tried to tell me what to do, rather than help me see things as time went on. Things I didn't want to see or hear.

What was so helpful was how my other siblings treated me. Gave me gentle direction with matter of fact statements.

Stop beating the dead horse.
Your spouse will never validate what you're doing right.
Your spouse is no longer your emotional confidant, or else he wouldn't have gone to her.
He loved you to the best of his ability.
Reality is never as bad as what you fear.
The best is yet to come.

Read up on emotional triangles. Identify your role. Break the cycle.

Be his brother, not omnipotent. Support him so he has the confidence to grow. Plant a seed with a single positive statement when you talk to him and let it go. Do not judge.

Look at your own anger now. Are you in counseling? If so, is it a counselor who you feel you can control? That's not a good counselor. Find someone who helps you.

That happened to me. In learning to trust her I was able to go in with no ego. My counselor's repeated "Get in a good place to make good decisions" turned the corner for me. She wasn't out to get me, she was there to help me. Heal thyself first.

You're worth it.

Something that got over my fear of going outside my belief in marriage was "consulting a lawyer to learn my legal rights." Nonthreatening and a learning process. And something that provides understanding on custody.. which is usually a wake up call for a committed parent.

*hugs*

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Thanks, Gyps,

I am way ahead of you on that, but what you have advised bears saying anyway.

I am conscious of the possibility that I am projecting my own anger onto my brother's sitch. I know that, and to a degree that is indeed true for me. I realize that I let my emotions get the better of me the other day, even as it was happening and even though I did not want them to because I new that would be counterproductive. And yet I was so shocked to hear how far he had fallen, how adamant he was in his self-blame. It felt as if at least one of us should have expressed some outrage at what was happening.

I see in him the same reactions I had when I played the enabling fool and scapegoat for my wayward spouse's selfish, harmful behaviors. I see the guile in my SIL for what it is, just more of the WAS script. And yes, I felt the offensiveness of these events all over again. Especially when I consider what this is going to do to my nieces and nephew, who are great, wonderful kids who deserve none of this senseless waste. It is so needlessly unfair for them to watch their parents sacrifice their family on the altar of selfishness. It does not have to be this way.

But I actually pity my SIL and where she is headed.

I honestly believe that in 99% of these cases that the desire to destroy one's family as a means to one's own happiness is ALWAYS a fruitless effort. Blaming one's spouse for your own dissatisfaction with life and ending the R as a possible solution is a siren call to disaster. You do not get true joy from other people, even from a spouse; you can only find that in yourself by giving to others. This is what Jesus leads us to do, because such joy comes from our Father ultimately. There is a spiritual dimension to this that we all tend to take for granted. So, if you are dissatisfied in your M and in how poorly your life has turned out, do not look towards your spouse for the blame -- look at yourself. And then change yourself, not your spouse.

And I will daresay that those who do manage to find lasting joy after divorce only do so in spite of D, never because of it. This only means that they have some how managed to change themselves, through a spiritual attitude adjustment, but which could just have easily been achieved within their M, if they would look at it honestly. The keys are in our own hands. We just have to humble ourselves to be able to find that joy.

But I cannot be my brother's keeper. That is why I have backed off from him, given him his space for a time. I can and will advise him as he allows. But he has to figure this out now on his own. And though I can see that he is headed for a world of hurt, and that he is likely to flip dangerously 180 degrees in the other direction, once the reality of what his W is doing to them hits him, I can only help him so much. A man's got his limitations, as I always like to say.

I did speak with our mother later on Sunday, and we discussed some of the things my brother K had said. She is very sad and angry for her son and what he's going through. She asked me (not for the first time) whether she should follow her own instincts in this -- to say something to SIL and the IL's about how wrong all of this is and to defend her son. I told her no (again), and asked her rhetorically what exactly that she might hope to accomplish. Nothing she would say would have any positive outcome on her actions, so why bother?

My mom then stated (again, not for the first time) that she wants to tell my brother to wake up and start defending himself. She said that she wants to tell him he would be an utter fool and a coward to not defend himself or by at least seeking out a L for advice on custody and his other rights. She at the very least wants to knock some sense into his head that he is risking the love and respect of his own children.

I told her that I wholeheartedly agree with her opinion, but K was just not there yet -- he won't even acknowledge any of the fault in his W, let alone begin to discuss hiring a L. All my mother would do would be to further anger K and alienate him from her. I further reasoned with her to play the role of the "good cop", while my other brother B and I play the roles of "bad cop" with K. He needs her to just love him and be his mother, to not pressure him anymore on his deteriorating MR and the destruction of his family. I told her I truly understand her outrage and desperation in the face of this tragedy, as my own instincts are also to go at them all with both guns ablazing, so to speak. But cooler heads are needed here. My brother K, I told her, only has her, our mother, as the last line of defense -- she must not burn that last bridge with him, even if all the rest of us should foolishly do so. He needs her.

I know this is tough on my mother. She's watched the shattering of two of her sons families, and watched the steady erosion in her ability to grandparent these children, because of the selfishness of the parents. But she really seemed to get what I was saying to her and really take to heart that K needs her to be strong in a different sort of way.


Me: 49
WAW: 47
S11, S7
Years Married/Together: 17/18
Bomb: 6/15/07
Separation: 7/6/07
D: 4/3/09

Real love is a decision.
Marriage is a commitment.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,585
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Hey No Code..

I don't think there's anything wrong about planting a seed.

"At least consult a lawyer to find out your legal rights/custody.. etc."

"The initial consultation is usually free."

And we're all 'wimps' because it's easier to believe there's something wrong with us.. until we're shocked into growing real fast.

*hugs*

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NOcodes,

The situation with your brother sounds awful and I hope he gets the help he needs to sort it all out.

One word of caution though- no-one ever really knows what goes on in a M apart from the two people who are M'd, ( and even then they don't always see the whole picture). Maybe there are things going on that your brother is not being truthful to you about or things he doesn't want to discuss. There may be a very good reason he is behaving as he is.

Just be a comfort for him; someone for him to be able to talk to and unburden to.


Saffie
me 46
H 46
M in 1986
D20,D18,S16,D13
H's A 01/05 to 07/06
H recommitted to M 07/06
renewed vows 09/06
Going from strength to strength
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