Hi Bill Just wanted to pop in and see how you were going and, whilst I feel that you have been receiving a lot of positive feedback and good advice here, I also feel that there's some real bs to go with it!
No one here really knows what type of people you and your W are and I feel that to act aggressively and in a reactive way is not what either of you needs right now. Sure your W needs to know what you have discovered but there's ways and means of getting your message across without having to put yourself to any further emotional or physical duress. If you are not ready to ask her to leave, then don't. Whatever you do has to feel right for you ... I wasted months on trying to do what other people here were advising and, if I had just mowed my own path forward, I reckon that I would have been where I am now a long time ago. If it doesn't sit easily with you, then it's not right.
However, if W does not comply with stopping the A, then there should be consequences. That will buy you some time to think about what it is that you want to do for YOU and YOUR kids. I think that you should set yourself a time limit and be prepared to go through with any 'consequences' which you feel are warranted - don't forget, if there is progress then the time limit can be extended.
Meanwhile, get her to move in to the spare room/on the sofa.
Reactive behaviour does not work. It helps the spouse to win. I packed my H's stuff and literally threw it out the door when he moved in to his temporary rental with a work colleague. I really acted out as the bitch from hell that he wanted me to be - it gave him the excuse he needed for leaving - it made it all so much easier for him and he told me afterwards that it was my REACTIVE behaviour which empowered him and made him feel far less guilty than he did when I was sitting, crying or being totally silent. Please don't power your Ws behaviour in this way.
Go about this in a calm and thoughtful manner. You should definitely set your boundaries and respect yourself but I have learned that being quiet and acting with dignity gets you to far better places and produces far better results than acting gung-ho and losing any self-respect by your retaliatory actions.
Will check in again later Bill but I have to get off as that thing called work is just getting in the way!!
WAH 43; W 47 M 16; T 17 Cats 15 & 6 Bomb 27/05/09 ow 28/06/09
"It is only on the darkest night that we see the stars"
He has mentioned that she gives him false hope, that she treats him like a doormat, he has been too nice to her, she has crossed over every boundary with him, the aggressive approach is something he hasn't tried and is something she expects he will never try because she knows he doesn't have the courage to do it.
Whenever you are dealing with a cheating spouse, you can't communicate to them in a kind & thoughtful manner, you just reinforce their decision that they originally made, ie. he isn't the man for me, he is ok with me seeing this OM, he's not willing to put his foot down with me and hold me accountable for my actions, he's not strong enough to do it.
He needs to communicate that.
None of what I said has him yelling or arguing or swearing or being aggressive.
Quite the opposite, it's the quiet strength he will be displaying.
He won't be using words anymore, he will use actions & body language to communicate with his wayward wife which is far more powerful than any words he's used thus far.
He would be doing the opposite of what he's done so far with his wife.
Just my 0.02 cents, good luck either way.
If you don't ever communicate to the WAS that you won't tolerate their actions & behavior, if you won't leave them if they are hurting you & the relationship that they have with you, how are they ever going to change what they're doing? What else would require them to change, human nature dictates that most people will only change what they're doing when they're forced to change - if you just ask them, they won't - why would they have to, what consequences are there for non-action?
Hey, Bill. I agree with what robx has said. But you need to say what you feel is right of course. I think you are a lot like I used to be, my regret is that I let my X walk all over me the 5 months I lived with him while he had a PA. It destroyed my PMA and self-esteem.
I think you can be loving, strong, and firm. I'm still a loving person, but I try not to let people walk over me. I agree you should be quietly assertive, not aggressive or witchy in any way.
You have my full support. Seeing the C is a good idea too.
Trusting yourself is one of the most important things a man can do. Trusting yourself to make the right decisions, even in the worst situations you're going to be ok, believe that you can count on yourself in anything.
One of the biggest things that kills attraction and relationships for men is his need for validation from the women he loves. If his wife or girlfriend does things for him, tells him she loves him, laughs at his jokes, agrees with him during discussions, etc. etc. etc. he feels great. As soon as she stops doing these things, he's broken. If she is in a bad mood, doesn't want to have sex, doesn’t agree with him, gives him the silent treatment, it triggers the needy, insecure, wussy person inside of him and that sets off a laundry list of insecure wussy behaviors which kill attraction quickly - attraction is dead, his wife/girlfriend coasts for a while seeing if he'll pick himself up and regain his original composure, the clock keeps on ticking, he doesn't because he feels he requires her validation to be able to be ok, without it, he's nothing and since he doesn't know how to be a complete man by himself, she leaves, not if, just a matter of when.
A man like that (most men unfortunately), will end up killing his relationships and he'll be scratching his head wondering how did this all happen?
The goal is to stop seeking external validation (this is applicable to both men & women). To become confident with ourselves, to be self-sufficient and happy without someone doing something for us to achieve that state.
The goal is to realize that in this life, you can truly do anything you want to do as long as you put your mind to it. You can have a great relationship, you can be a great person, you can achieve great things as long as you believe in yourself enough to trust yourself and take action in your own life.
Instead of allowing fear to control our lives, the goal is to realize that we invent alot of the beliefs that hold us back and since alot of these beliefs haven't actually happened, we're really just scared of a possibility that things might turn out poorly, we really haven't experienced the final outcome yet.
Trust yourself, make a decision to own your life, let go of the need to control others (including what your spouse does), let go of the need to require approval & validation from other people (ie. your spouses). Just trust yourself and damn the consequences - own your strength.
You can decide that you can let go of people that don't respect you or the relationship they have with you, you can decide to let go of people that won't put the effort in the relationship that you have been investing. You can decide to let these hurtful people go and view it as their loss and not as yours because you have the rest of your great life to look forward to and these people are holding you back.
Taking responsibility for your life is scary but with practice you'll get better at it.
Setting boundaries with how people can treat you will give you the results you are looking for, letting go of the people that won't respect your boundaries is a part of that. You become your own filter, you know what you're going to let in and you know what you're going to keep out.
If your spouse is cheating on you or abusing you actively with no remorse or regard for your feelings, let them go - no need to be kind or polite about it because if you have to worry about being kind or polite to the people cheating on you and/or abusing you (I would consider cheating a form of abuse), you are still worried about their feelings as being more important than your own and that really doesn't make sense now does it?
Hey, Bill. I agree with what robx has said. But you need to say what you feel is right of course. I think you are a lot like I used to be, my regret is that I let my X walk all over me the 5 months I lived with him while he had a PA. It destroyed my PMA and self-esteem.
I think you can be loving, strong, and firm. I'm still a loving person, but I try not to let people walk over me. I agree you should be quietly assertive, not aggressive or witchy in any way.
You have my full support. Seeing the C is a good idea too.
We're all preoccupied with things feeling right before doing something.
In fact we let those feelings guide our decisions when we should be leading those decisions with our minds, not our feelings.
Reactive behaviour does not work. It helps the spouse to win. I packed my H's stuff and literally threw it out the door when he moved in to his temporary rental with a work colleague. I really acted out as the bitch from hell that he wanted me to be - it gave him the excuse he needed for leaving - it made it all so much easier for him and he told me afterwards that it was my REACTIVE behaviour which empowered him and made him feel far less guilty than he did when I was sitting, crying or being totally silent. Please don't power your Ws behaviour in this way.
That's why he needs to be pro-active, he can't just confront her and say "hey I know you're cheating, what's up with that", he needs to follow through with that with an action that shows he's moving forward with his life without her, he becomes the WAS, the dynamic shifts, he no longer feels or exhibits feeling the fear of loss, this is shifted on to her, she is losing him now because he is making the decision to move on without her. That's the switch, he's not just being reactive, he is being proactive, he is making a decision and acting on it, he is taking control of his life and of this relationship where for so long, he hasn't had any control.
Crisis, fear of loss, moving on, this is what generates action on the part of the LBS. Since you know this, use this fact, turn things around, let go of the LBS role, become the WAS, take back the power in your relationship - you're no longer pursuing, you're leaving. You're no longer pulling them in, you're pushing them away and the opposite will happen - they will pursue, they will react, they will be thrown off balance because all along the decision making & power in this relationship was owned by the WAS not the LBS.
[quote=karen43]Hey, Bill. I agree with what robx has said. But you need to say what you feel is right of course.
Rob, poorly stated probably, by that I meant he needs to say what he believes is right. I love what you wrote, but Bill is his own person and I'm sure can come up with the words to say.
Trusting yourself is one of the most important things a man can do. Trusting yourself to make the right decisions, even in the worst situations you're going to be ok, believe that you can count on yourself in anything.
Robx, I won't quote the whole thing since it's very long but that post was damn good!
Gardener
"My soul, be satisfied with flowers, With fruit, with weeds even; but gather them In the one garden you may call your own." Cyrano deBergerac
I just read all 27 pages of this thread, and it's heartbreaking.
First off, there is no excuse or defense for her either lying to you or bringing another man into your intimate relationship. None.
But. I could be her. A husband who was happy just being in the same room with me. A husband who (often) gave so much of his heart and mind to his work that there was literally nothing left for me at the end of the day. A man who, while open to me in many respects, had enormously thick walls up against true physical intimacy (that sounds a bit different from your sitch in some respects, but it may have felt similar to her.) A man who always felt constrained and conflicted when it came to passion. A man who seemed more interested in "taking care of me" in the pleasure department, as opposed to "taking me" for his own pleasure. (Mind you, of course that can go too much the other way too, but either extreme is distasteful to many women.)
Let me tell you, that is beyond disheartening (and defeminizing) to live with long-term, especially if your primary love language is physical touch.
Was it his "fault" or did it make him a bad or insufficient person? Of course not. He was the way he was for a lot of very logical reasons (aside: what IS IT with engineers?) He was and is a great guy and the best friend anyone could want. But I wasn't getting what *I* needed to feel loved, valued, and cherished. (I am now.)
As far as the things she has been saying about wanting to stay in bed all day cuddling/making love ... I could have said exactly that (as unreasonable as it sounds). I call it "50-lb steak syndrome" -- if you've been starved for a long time, you build up an enormous appetite, at least in theory. What you are actually satisfied with eating when the scarcity is gone may be a very different thing.
I'm not defending her actions here. Divorce is a very big stick indeed, and not an appropriate negotiating tactic. Not to mention, if she has had her head turned with fantasy and attention from an OM (although it is unclear to me how much this is still ongoing), she is NOT doing her best thinking. And I think you do have to be willing to throw down ultimatums about her contact with him; it's important for your own self-respect IMHO, and also, she'll never value you or want you or take you seriously as anything more than a "Nice Guy" if you don't show by your actions that you value *yourself* too much to be willing to share her or play second fiddle.
Be that as it may .... compassion, comprehension, and empathy is always in order.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
Guys thank you for all your input. Your words and support have been really great.
Yes, I have regrets for my role in the distance in our R. Yeah, I'm an engineer, Ket... Hm.
Well, it's done. Not a lot of drama. Short. W was cooking dinner when I got home, I asked her to speak privately. Sat down and said, this is the last moment, if there's anthing you want to say now.
She said, I don't understand.
I handed her the printout, and she read it. Didn't really react, just said "where did you get this?"
I said, "I know you've lied to me repeatedly about seeing (guy's name). And I want to give this back to you" and handed her my wedding ring.
And I said "I'd appreciate it if you moved out as soon as possible. I'm done." Then I got up and left.
She sought me out a litte later and said, "I'm sorry."
I said "That's not good enough." and she said "I know"
I said, "you lied to me. You lied to me on the phone when you were going to see him, told me that you wouldn't do anything to hurt me, that you hold me in such high regard. What is that? Are you the woman I married?"
She shook her head no.
I said, "I don't love you. I want you to get out."
She left to go to the movies with her friend, like she does on Tuesday nights.
