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#1871015 - 11/10/09 07:19 AM Re: UPSIDE DOWN - still struggling, trying to deta [Re: rockedworld]
Eskimo Nell Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/09
Posts: 1004
Loc: Totally Isolated
OK people (especially for rockedworld, as I promised):

Just back from C and had a most excellent session. Her wisdom really came out at the end and I wanted to get this down before I forget it. I then have to dash off to bed. I really need to sleep on this advice but right now it excites me ..... and as I look back on Saturday, as C made me, I see that it was only when I told H the absolute truth about how I felt the week before - wanting to hiding my rage from him - that I noticed a moment of hesitation in him. This gives me more hope than I have felt in a long while - I am going to share it but you must think about it, as I still have to - it may even be DB'ing in it's broadest term, or it may even contradict it, but it works for me right now:

"Playing games with H tells him one thing. He knows you and that means that he knows who you are - 'faking it' and 'acting out a pretence' tells him that you are being untrue to yourself - if you are not being true to yourself, how are you being true to him? This instils fear in him - he is scared and he will run away. It is not what works.

You may not want him to see your vulnerability, hurt, anger, bitterness or rage but to tell him in a controlled fashion that these emotions are what you are feeling will do far more good than harm. He will understand that you are telling the truth and therefore he will have nothing to fear from your open conversation. Playing games makes him fearful. Pretending makes him fearful. It is not the real you. It is not the true you. It's not where he wants to be, or stay.

The truth is what will bring him closer and show him that you are being genuine. The truth will allow him to want to spend more time with you - maybe. He is afraid of your games and each time you invite him, he declines as he is fearful of who/what you are trying to be.

You don't have to reveal all your thoughts - you don't have to be utterly transparent but you will achieve more in being open about where you are sitting than by all the games that you have been acting out with him to date - and have they worked? The answer is a resounding no".
_________________________
WAH 43; W 47
M 16; T 17
Cats 15 & 6
Bomb 27/05/09
ow 28/06/09

"It is only on the darkest night that we see the stars"

Started counselling 17/08/09

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#1871192 - 11/10/09 11:33 AM Re: UPSIDE DOWN - still struggling, trying to deta [Re: Eskimo Nell]
Dudess Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 712
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: Eskimo Nell
Just back from C and had a most excellent session. Her wisdom really came out at the end and I wanted to get this down before I forget it. I then have to dash off to bed. I really need to sleep on this advice but right now it excites me ..... and as I look back on Saturday, as C made me, I see that it was only when I told H the absolute truth about how I felt the week before - wanting to hiding my rage from him - that I noticed a moment of hesitation in him.


Did you write about this somewhere? What happened? Did he say something or was this non-verbal? What did you take this to mean?

Originally Posted By: Eskimo Nell
This gives me more hope than I have felt in a long while - I am going to share it but you must think about it, as I still have to - it may even be DB'ing in it's broadest term, or it may even contradict it, but it works for me right now:


But will it work with him?

Originally Posted By: counselor
"Playing games with H tells him one thing. He knows you and that means that he knows who you are - 'faking it' and 'acting out a pretence' tells him that you are being untrue to yourself - if you are not being true to yourself, how are you being true to him? This instils fear in him - he is scared and he will run away. It is not what works.


"Playing games" is a pejorative term. I prefer to think of it as strategic.

Originally Posted By: counselor
"You may not want him to see your vulnerability, hurt, anger, bitterness or rage but to tell him in a controlled fashion that these emotions are what you are feeling will do far more good than harm. He will understand that you are telling the truth and therefore he will have nothing to fear from your open conversation.


Telling him in a controlled manner, when you emotions are evident to him, is obviously the way to go.

Originally Posted By: counselor
Playing games makes him fearful. Pretending makes him fearful. It is not the real you. It is not the true you. It's not where he wants to be, or stay.


That is not my impression. I don't think you have done a very good job of "pretending". I think you have been quite transparent with him. I think it is more likely your rage and your pursuing, that makes him feel guilty and not want to be around you.

Originally Posted By: counselor
The truth is what will bring him closer and show him that you are being genuine. The truth will allow him to want to spend more time with you - maybe. He is afraid of your games and each time you invite him, he declines as he is fearful of who/what you are trying to be.


Look back at your results Nell. It seems to me that the times he has come closer, stayed longer, is when you have left him alone at least a little bit and have not worn your heart on your sleeve.

Originally Posted By: counselor
You don't have to reveal all your thoughts - you don't have to be utterly transparent but you will achieve more in being open about where you are sitting than by all the games that you have been acting out with him to date - and have they worked? The answer is a resounding no".


All what games? I haven't seen you play the game much. If you had been DBing and giving him the gucci consistently and getting nowhere, then of course try something else.

What I have observed is that you have implemented only a little bit of those strategies and very inconsistently. When you have some small amount of success, you immediately start the pursuit again.

It is nuts to say that DBing hasn't worked, giving him the gucci hasn't worked, when you haven't been doing it. It's like exercising and eating a low fat diet one day a week, and sitting on your butt eating fried fish and ice cream the other six days and then saying your weight loss plan isn't working.

IMO, there's a time in relationships for vulnerability and honesty, and there's a time for playing the game of love. When your H has left you for another woman, I say let the games begin. (Have you noticed how much men love games of all kinds?) I do think it works better when you actually adopt the mindset yourself, when you really believe that you will be fine without him and you are moving on. Then you aren't pretending.
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#1871453 - 11/10/09 03:17 PM Re: UPSIDE DOWN - still struggling, trying to deta [Re: Eskimo Nell]
Coach Offline
Member

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 5299
Quote:
"Playing games with H tells him one thing. He knows you and that means that he knows who you are - 'faking it' and 'acting out a pretence' tells him that you are being untrue to yourself - if you are not being true to yourself, how are you being true to him? This instils fear in him - he is scared and he will run away. It is not what works.

You may not want him to see your vulnerability, hurt, anger, bitterness or rage but to tell him in a controlled fashion that these emotions are what you are feeling will do far more good than harm. He will understand that you are telling the truth and therefore he will have nothing to fear from your open conversation. Playing games makes him fearful. Pretending makes him fearful. It is not the real you. It is not the true you. It's not where he wants to be, or stay.

The truth is what will bring him closer and show him that you are being genuine. The truth will allow him to want to spend more time with you - maybe. He is afraid of your games and each time you invite him, he declines as he is fearful of who/what you are trying to be.

You don't have to reveal all your thoughts - you don't have to be utterly transparent but you will achieve more in being open about where you are sitting than by all the games that you have been acting out with him to date - and have they worked? The answer is a resounding no".



EK, I think your C is trying to tell you to feel your feelings and if something is bothering you then bring it up. Be authentic, be true to yourself and be courageous. I think alot of people are afraid that we won't be loved if someone else could see into us. We all have fears, doubts, frailities and quirks. We also crave intimacy - physically, mentally, spiritually and emotionally. So to get there we need to allow the intimacy (intomesee) to happen.

Cheers
_________________________
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12
Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.

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#1871833 - 11/11/09 07:42 AM Re: UPSIDE DOWN - still struggling, trying to deta [Re: Coach]
Sanderika Offline
Member

Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 761
(((((Nell)))))

I believe I have told you this before.....

Your H can "smell a rat", sort to speak. They can see right through a fake and phony facade. They can tell when you are ONLY "playing games", as you put it, as a ploy to get them back. That is because your fear and desperation shine through. It is because In Their Opinion, they left because YOU wanted them to. Your behaviors and actions were unloving and most likely they believed you were pushing them out. This is why they are resistant to trust your changes.

With that being agreed upon.....When I tell you to change YOU, remove the unattractive side of yourself, I am telling you to lose the traits you have that drove him away in the first place.
Strengthen the traits that H loves about you. Practice the positives and ditch the negatives. Practice the positives until they take control of YOU. By doing this, your H will see the woman he loves. He will see the genuine effort you have made to BETTER yourself. He will recognize the changes and accept them as true and lasting. This takes a long time. It is worth the effort, trust me.

These are a couple of examples for you:

I see your rage as a problem.

I see your sense of humor as a positive.

Nell, finish the list for us. List your problems, YOU want to change. List your positives you want to nurture.

During all of this.....DO NOT lose sight of your values, morals, convictions. Remain true to yourself. It is ok to stand up for yourself and uphold your ideals and POV's. It would be unfair for anyone to expect you to crumble and fall and become a puppet through all of this. You are Nell. Your H still loves you. Your H left because HE HAD TO, not necessarily because HE WANTED TO. I am sure this decision to leave was very hard for him. He gave it a great deal of thought and looked at it like this was his only way. I have had this conversation with my H. These words, he has told me.

Nell, come up with the reasons H left. List them out. Work on repairing the problems as he viewed them at the same time you are working on you. I think you will see a correlation between your behaviors and H's actions.

I DO NOT call treating H well, playing games. I have been posting on another's thread and her H has been gone 3 years now. He has just revealed....one of the reasons he wants to return to her is that she has remained a constant friend for him and treated him with kindness and respect. She has never turned her back on him through this entire ordeal. She has DB successfully for herself in the process. My H has mirrored some of the same. He has thanked me for being nice to him. I know he loves me. I know he values our friendship. This is stuff you have to think about.

IMO, your H is not ready to end the marriage with you. Your H would have implemented legal proceedings by now if he was.

OH, your H does not believe he is having an affair because in his eyes and mind he IS NOT WITH YOU anymore. It is still an affair because you are married. This is something they choose to believe because it diminishes their guilt. Do not listen to this cr*p. My H has been quoted as saying the same. It is one of the songs all WAS and MLC dwellers sing. Forget you heard it!!!!
Time is on your side. You must use it wisely and effectively.
Learn how to remedy the sitch. It can be done. It is not game playing if you truthfully want your H and marriage back because they are most important and precious to you.

(((((HUGS)))))

Sanderika
_________________________
ME48/H48MLC
T 33y
M 28y
S16
OW 8/7/05
Bomb 8/16/05
Sep 9/05
H f'd D 10/3/08
D pp'd 1/20/09,7/24/09,12/4/09
D dismissed 2/5/10
H served me D papers again 9/4/10
D dismissed 9/26/11

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#1875419 - 11/16/09 05:25 PM Re: UPSIDE DOWN - still struggling, trying to deta [Re: Sanderika]
dtlewis Offline
New Member

Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 18
Loc: North Texas
Nell,

I am just catching up with your predicament. I have to agree that it's your motives and goals that make it a 'game' or real. Of course most of us here want to save our marriages. There are many good reasons why we should. But, one thing that DB makes clear is that we have to be in a place that we can give positive contributions to our relationships. Therefore, the GAL and keeping some detachment to get off the roller coaster where our emotions are tied to what our spouse does isn't a game. More like a sine qua non. Without this we are not going to experience the type of personal change that will allow us to have true happiness and build more stable relationships. Now if only I could do this as easy as I spout it.
The thing about WAS with MLC is that somehow we got to the place in our relationships that we didn't recognize the process and we weren't 'safe' enough for our spouse to trust. Granted, their perceptions are warped. That is were I am having trouble deciding what to change. My W has some valid complaints and some of her stuff is clearly hallucinations brought on by middle age crazies. But, which are which? I don't know about you but sometimes it is hard for me to tell. So all I can do is really look at my behaviors in relation to my values and change the behaviors that do not reflect what I want to be. If this makes me more attractive and 'safe' for her to invest her emotions in, great. If not, at least I am more centered.
As you tell me, time is on your side. ((((Eskimo Nell)))). There are a lot of people out here cheering for you and supporting you.

dtlewis
_________________________
Me (47)
W (42)
D (18) adopted 2 years ago from Russia
S (almost 16), S (13)
M 19 years
Bomb 10/09

"Ask, and ye shall receive. Seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and the door will be opened unto you."

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#1878324 - 11/20/09 10:28 AM Re: UPSIDE DOWN - still struggling, trying to deta [Re: dtlewis]
dtlewis Offline
New Member

Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 18
Loc: North Texas
Nell, are you there? I am worried that you haven't posted in a week. Can we do anything to lift you up (other than our continued prayers)?

You are in my thoughts.

DTL
_________________________
Me (47)
W (42)
D (18) adopted 2 years ago from Russia
S (almost 16), S (13)
M 19 years
Bomb 10/09

"Ask, and ye shall receive. Seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and the door will be opened unto you."

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#1878638 - 11/20/09 04:50 PM Re: UPSIDE DOWN - still struggling, trying to deta [Re: dtlewis]
Lost Rabbit Offline
Member

Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 1317
Nell is fine she is just taking a break from the board at the moment! I will pass your wishes on to her.
_________________________
____________________________

W 47
H 47
M 24
T 30

Once lost but now found and happily married again!

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