AKA: "Ben the school teacher" --- Me:45, W:41 | Ds:10,12&14 | M:18, T:20 Me: MLC+PA+WAS+Separated 10/08 My Request to Reconcile Denied 7/09 W w/OM 6/09-11/09
You know, there's one other thing that comes to mind. I don't know that much about narcissism but I do know that one thing I'm not completely in touch with yet is how much I have NOT forgiven myself for all the hurt I've caused W. I think that lack of forgiveness gets projected out, can turn into blame, and convincing oneself of all sorts of things like self importance, etc. I think it can also stand in the way of asking for forgiveness from others. I've asked for forgiveness and kind of forgiven myself but not really all the way
This is some good stuff.
I struggled for a long, dark time with being able to forgive myself. First, it takes a brutally honest examination and ownership of your own failings, foibles and general contributions to the marital mess. It takes acknowledging these completely separate and independent from anything your spouse might have done/not done. In fact, I found that when I was in the space of working on forgiving me, I was utterly and completely unconcerned with anything H had done - and I think that was good. It stopped the blame cycle.
When I finally got to a place where I had forgiven myself, I found I had forgiven him, too, and without even trying. It was as if I'd flipped a switch.
The trouble with having an open mind is that people put things in it.
My sitch - Divorce Busted! http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1804137#Post1804137
You know, there's one other thing that comes to mind. I don't know that much about narcissism but I do know that one thing I'm not completely in touch with yet is how much I have NOT forgiven myself for all the hurt I've caused W. I think that lack of forgiveness gets projected out, can turn into blame, and convincing oneself of all sorts of things like self importance, etc. I think it can also stand in the way of asking for forgiveness from others. I've asked for forgiveness and kind of forgiven myself but not really all the way (this whole deep feelings thing is brand new to me, can you tell?). Anyway, it sure seems like its hard and I can see how so many people may not even be able to see it well enough to figure out how to get past it. Does that make sense?
BTW. What does it say about me when I keep using myself as an example....YIKES...LOL!
Yes, this is so common. Often when one is cheating he/she blames the other for pushing them to do it or finds fault with their partner and doesn't even correlate it to the OP...
Also, in my sitch, my H really screwed up when our second son was born (left town even though I begged him not too and missed his birth). I did fine and I forgave him but I think that was truly the beginning of the end because he saw himself as that guy, not the family first guy he had been prior. So, ya, narcissism is very much about creating a false self and that can be motivated by guilt, insecurity, lack of fulfillment...some people wake up to reality if it is an acute case and some just can't let it go. I don't know who the real H is in my sitch. I don't know if the false self was the family guy, devoted husband or if it is the star-chasing self-gratifier...if he is a true narcissist, he is neither, just a lost soul.
You are doing great with the deep feelings and looking at yourself.
Oh, and what it says about you that you are using yourself as an example is that you are willing to own your sh*t and also to give something here. Good stuff.
I struggled for a long, dark time with being able to forgive myself. First, it takes a brutally honest examination and ownership of your own failings, foibles and general contributions to the marital mess. It takes acknowledging these completely separate and independent from anything your spouse might have done/not done. In fact, I found that when I was in the space of working on forgiving me, I was utterly and completely unconcerned with anything H had done - and I think that was good. It stopped the blame cycle.
When I finally got to a place where I had forgiven myself, I found I had forgiven him, too, and without even trying. It was as if I'd flipped a switch.
As the LBS, I was able to do this pretty early on. It astounds some people who know me that I take such ownership of my part and forgive (not excuse) H's behavior. It is a very empowering experience. I am not a victim and my life is my responsibility, keeps me from sinking further into the pit of despair to be mindful of that.
It astounds some people who know me that I take such ownership of my part and forgive (not excuse) H's behavior. It is a very empowering experience. I am not a victim and my life is my responsibility, keeps me from sinking further into the pit of despair to be mindful of that.
This is the same thing my W has told me. Almost word for word. She has said she's healed but when we sat and cried toegther I realized how much she wasn't healed and how much hurt is still there. In fact I caused the wound to be reopened when I showed up telling her I loved her and wanted to save our marriage. I have the hardest time reconciling all of the hurt with the fact that she says she's forgiven me. It doesn't feel like she's forgiven me at all. Seems like she just tucked it all inside and and got her life under control.
AKA: "Ben the school teacher" --- Me:45, W:41 | Ds:10,12&14 | M:18, T:20 Me: MLC+PA+WAS+Separated 10/08 My Request to Reconcile Denied 7/09 W w/OM 6/09-11/09
You are doing great with the deep feelings and looking at yourself.
Thanks. I feel pretty dorky sometimes.
AKA: "Ben the school teacher" --- Me:45, W:41 | Ds:10,12&14 | M:18, T:20 Me: MLC+PA+WAS+Separated 10/08 My Request to Reconcile Denied 7/09 W w/OM 6/09-11/09
It astounds some people who know me that I take such ownership of my part and forgive (not excuse) H's behavior. It is a very empowering experience. I am not a victim and my life is my responsibility, keeps me from sinking further into the pit of despair to be mindful of that.
This is the same thing my W has told me. Almost word for word. She has said she's healed but when we sat and cried toegther I realized how much she wasn't healed and how much hurt is still there. In fact I caused the wound to be reopened when I showed up telling her I loved her and wanted to save our marriage. I have the hardest time reconciling all of the hurt with the fact that she says she's forgiven me. It doesn't feel like she's forgiven me at all. Seems like she just tucked it all inside and and got her life under control.
Yes, you hurt her. But, the hurt is hers. This is heady stuff but early on in my sitch, I realized that the hurt I felt was the same hurt I felt as a child or in other traumatic situations. She has her path and in some way, this experience is her opportunity to process her own pain and evolve, grow and mature as a woman.
She is not a victim just as I am not. H has hurt me and between he and I, there is healing that would need to happen (I think together or apart). But, my own personal healing is my responsibility. She has choices, she wants to be her own person and make her own decisions. She wants to feel whole and okay without you before she could contemplate being with you. The OM is just a spoke in the wheel (IMO)...but, the major theme is that she wants to live her own life on her own terms. If she has the guts to live up to her own expectations, she will likely rid of him. His pressuring her is just one more opportunity for her to woman up and do her own thing. It is all her call. She chose him, he's challenging her and a win for her (IMO) would be to take herself back from him to and be on her own.
That was a giant paragraph of assumptions and projections but maybe some truth there.
Point is, you've got your culpability in your R with her. But, she is a sovereign individual on her own path, obviously. You have served her in some ways (perverse as it seems). It sucks, we hurt those we love, we get in dynamics that we end up regretting (I have my own remorse) but I have faith that H and I are each fully equipped to make what we want out of it. It's not so bad when I look at it that way. We aren't damaged, we have more information, what I do with it is my business and what he does with it is his...
She is not a victim just as I am not. H has hurt me and between he and I, there is healing that would need to happen (I think together or apart). But, my own personal healing is my responsibility. She has choices, she wants to be her own person and make her own decisions. She wants to feel whole and okay without you before she could contemplate being with you. The OM is just a spoke in the wheel (IMO)...but, the major theme is that she wants to live her own life on her own terms. If she has the guts to live up to her own expectations, she will likely rid of him. His pressuring her is just one more opportunity for her to woman up and do her own thing. It is all her call. She chose him, he's challenging her and a win for her (IMO) would be to take herself back from him to and be on her own.
I hope this is where my W is right now. Its good to hear someone that has been through it say similiar things to what W is saying. Sometimes it is very hard for me to believe the things she says.
