Cake eating WAW in MLC and EA part 2

[CABBR]

I talked with my Lawyer this morning and she was OK with everything I've done with the finances because I can substantiate a need to deal with short term debts. She feels I may eventually have to capitulate on the rental income, but as long as I'm not simply hoarding money from my wife, meeting the needs of the family and legitimately trying to protect our financial health then I'm OK.

Lawyer's comment about the legal fees was that what we have will be split eventually and my W will have to cover her fees from whatever she gets in the distribution.

In terms of the EA exposure, my lawyer would have preferred that I approach my W about it first, but didn't think it would be detrimental to my overall situation. In the email from the OM informing my W of the exposure, he made it clear that he could no longer communicate with her and that his emails went over the line, etc.

Cabbr

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Very good.

[CABBR]

At this point, it's pretty much all over but the shooting.

My W is going to say that I treated her poorly over the years arising to the level of abuse. This is really interesting. I may not have been as supportive or respectful as I should be to my W, but abuse? - that's going to be very interesting in how she proves that up. Let's see I don't drink, don't swear, don't hit people - but I do have an opinion.

[ShockedOne]

Your wife is going to say what she feels the need to say to get what she feels she deserves. And maybe then some too.

[CABBR]

Your wife is going to say what she feels the need to say to get what she feels she deserves. And maybe then some too.

Thanks SO.

Holy crap - I just look at my boys and think they have no idea what's coming. It's a GD tsunami. My older s9 is certainly feeling it and gets concerned when my W goes out with her friends or disappears from 3:00 on to work on her divorce papers. He asks me when she's coming home and I say I don't know.

I had to cancel a MC appointment last minute as there was no reason to go. The counselor was very strongly advocating making this as painless as possible both financially and in terms of ill will and therefore pain inflicted on our boys.

He made a point of saying when the lawyers get involved it accelerates an already deteriorating situation.

I saw some emails today of her apologizing to the OM for what I did. She said she was so distraught and couldn't comprehend how someone (me) could intentionally attempt to destroy someone else's life. Said it was all about vengeance in getting even with her. This is a common thread on this issue. That my anger is fueling what I am doing. It's like if she says it enough times she'll believe it. I feel like asking how exactly was your EA helping OM's marriage? Seems to me when you know someone is having trouble with their M, you need to be extra cautious in sending the wrong signals and in encouraging the wrong idea. There are few things more dishonorable than assisting in the dissolution of someone else's marriage.

OM's W emailed me today wanted to know if I had any further intel. I only said that the last email I saw seemed like he was trying to do the right thing by terminating all contact. That was last week.

[CABBR]

So tonight I get home and my W says she met with her lawyer today and because I have cut off the $, she is apparently entitled to make a motion for immediate temporary relief in which she could take resideince of the house and sole custody and I would have to write her a monthly check and move out.

She's quite confident from talking to a few lawyers that she could easily get sole custody as the primary care giver or allow me to have one day a week and every other weekend - nice huh?

Something tells me she didn't tell her lawyer anything about the boob job and other 6k she's spent the last few months, nor my requests (unfortunately not in writing) to stop spending so much money. Ugh.

Gee, just what I want - to be tossed out of the house and have to hand over 3/4 of paycheck. I'll need to talk to my lawyer yet again.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I'd give her about a 20% chance of that. She'd have to prove abuse, so WATCH that she doesn't try to pick a fight with you.

What does your atty say about that?

Puppy

[CABBR]

I'd give her about a 20% chance of that. She'd have to prove abuse, so WATCH that she doesn't try to pick a fight with you.

What does your atty say about that?

Puppy

Don't know yet. I'll have to touch base first thing tomorrow.

No, I think she's been advised to be civil, which she has been. But man, her statements were just laden with presumptiveness. Like I could totally hose you because I'm the primary care giver.

[robx]

So tonight I get home and my W says she met with her lawyer today and because I have cut off the $, she is apparently entitled to make a motion for immediate temporary relief in which she could take resideince of the house and sole custody and I would have to write her a monthly check and move out.

She's quite confident from talking to a few lawyers that she could easily get sole custody as the primary care giver or allow me to have one day a week and every other weekend - nice huh?

Something tells me she didn't tell her lawyer anything about the boob job and other 6k she's spent the last few months, nor my requests (unfortunately not in writing) to stop spending so much money. Ugh.

Gee, just what I want - to be tossed out of the house and have to hand over 3/4 of paycheck. I'll need to talk to my lawyer yet again.

OK this isn't the 70's & 80's.

The courts are deciding in the best interests of the children, not the best interests of one parent vs. another. Unless you're some mega abusive, alcohol/drug addicted bastard that is proven to be harmful to the children and your wife and have repeated offenses recorded with the local police, I'm pretty sure she's going to have a tough time doing any of what she's trying to do.

She's a bully.

Some people will disagree with me but the way to take care of a bully is to stand up to her.

Divorce lawyers look forward to this crap because they get to clock more hours consulting the 2 of you on this. When all is said & done, you guys will be lucky if you have a dollar left after selling off all your assets to pay for the legal fees.

You tell your wife that she's going to have to prove that you're abusive and I'm judging based on the meek, mouse like personality you're displaying on this forum (sorry bro, you just sound so ineffectual, she runs over you all the time, she's still doing it) that this isn't you.

You also tell her you won't settle for being a weekend dad to your kid(s) and you won't be bullied by her or anyone else now or ever again in the future.

You've had it with her crap behavior & attitude and if she continues like this, she can speak to her lawyer whenever she wants to talk to you because you won't communicate with her anymore if she threatens you.

You aren't taking money from her, on the contrary, she will have to explain that she took money from the family for her boob job without speaking to you first. She will have to explain in a court of law in front of a judge that during these tough economic times, how she was thinking about the best interests of her family when she did this and tried to hide it. She is establishing a pattern of erratic, irresponsible, abusive & violent behavior and this is something she will be questioned about in court because she is going to have to prove that her having sole custody of the children is in their best interests. You already have an established pattern of responsibility, you work, you take care of the finances, you maintain a household, you take care of your children, you don't make major financial decisions without consulting your wife and considering the impacts to your family's financial future.

Men have rights too, just because you're separated/divorced, etc. doesn't mean your power & rights get stripped from you like a common criminal. You have rights, you expect to be treated fairly & equally and if you fight for that expectation and fight for these rights, you will receive them.

Listen I'm trying to pump up your ego but it only works if you actually LISTEN!!!!!

No one can take advantage of you unless you allow them.

[CABBR]

Well, I've tried to listen to you guys. I'm not too interested in being flat broke though. I need to hear what my lawyer has to say about all this.

She has no case for abuse. she'll rail about me looking through her stuff and intercepting her emails, but beyond that there is nothing she can say. i think in her own mind that she really thinks I'm vindictive for exposing the EA. she views that as something vile. Funnily enough, a couple of years ago she put her hand through a closet door (hollow of course) when she lost her temper with my older son.

[CABBR]

And btw thanks for the pep talk Rob.

[robx]

Well, I've tried to listen to you guys. I'm not too interested in being flat broke though. I need to hear what my lawyer has to say about all this.

She has no case for abuse. she'll rail about me looking through her stuff and intercepting her emails, but beyond that there is nothing she can say. i think in her own mind that she really thinks I'm vindictive for exposing the EA. she views that as something vile. Funnily enough, a couple of years ago she put her hand through a closet door (hollow of course) when she lost her temper with my older son.

If she says you were abusive for invading her privacy and finding out about the affair, you tell her that you don't think it was invading her privacy, you call it "exposing the truth" - if she makes noise about that statement, you ask her if the affair is real or imaginary? Has she been spending time with a married man, yes or no? Has she been recklessly spending money to improve her appearance & attractiveness to other men yes or no? Has she been deceitful as to where she goes and who she spends her time with yes or no? Did someone see her kissing the OM yes or no?

She did all these things and then chooses to lie about them or make them out to be smaller than they really are.

She lies to you because she is controlling.
How can lying be controlling you might ask?
Simple... when someone lies to you it's because they don't want you to hear the truth because when they lie about something they want to CONTROL your reaction. If she tells the truth she can't control your reaction to it, if she lies to you she can control your reaction.

She is controlling, stop allowing this.

Speak to your lawyer but get out of the mindset that she's going to take you to the cleaners - start assuming the opposite: that the law will take care of you and treat you honestly & fairly. If you go in with a defeatist attitude, you will get exactly that. If you go in with the attitude that you will not allow her to hurt or take advantage of you anymore, you will get that.

Sounds like she's been running the show for quite some time before all of these problems happened. She is used to it, you are the doormat she wipes her shoes on. Not a flattering description is it. I think some women challenge their men because they want their men to stand up to them, they want a masculine man who isn't afraid to stand up for himself or his beliefs.

She isn't attracted to a mouse, she's attracted to a man.
This is all about attraction, start thinking about this and change your behaviors so that you're more masculine and more attractive.

Stop letting her control you.
One thing I know for sure and puppy will agree with as well, you can't let a woman control you, they lose all respect for you when they can control you and they also wind up hating you and treating you quite poorly because you've allowed this to happen.

Start calling the shots and be confident about it.
You can do it, we have faith in you, start being the man you need to be for yourself first & foremost.

[Greek]

Shouldn't you be asking your lawyer to make these moves with her? I thought the rule of thumb was no legal talk - that's what you pay the lawyer for. So if she brings up what her hired gun is going to do to you, just say "OK". I wouldn't fight that battle at home. Keep your lawyer informed about how much of her hand she is showing so he has that info to use, but other than that, don't get into that arena with HER. Let your attorney do that job.

Your job at this time is to get yourself together. You'll be working on those areas of your life that you have neglected since you became her H, learning how to be an effective communicator with HER and everyone else in your world, taking care of CABBR and growing.

Just a little intel for ya - when I brought up legal stuff with my H, I did it b/c I was scared and I was looking for a glimpse of what he might be aiming at me. She doesn't bring this stuff up with you b/c she thinks she has it all buttoned down - just the opposite.

Be tough. Get smart.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Smart!!!

[robx]

Shouldn't you be asking your lawyer to make these moves with her? I thought the rule of thumb was no legal talk - that's what you pay the lawyer for. So if she brings up what her hired gun is going to do to you, just say "OK". I wouldn't fight that battle at home. Keep your lawyer informed about how much of her hand she is showing so he has that info to use, but other than that, don't get into that arena with HER. Let your attorney do that job.

Your job at this time is to get yourself together. You'll be working on those areas of your life that you have neglected since you became her H, learning how to be an effective communicator with HER and everyone else in your world, taking care of CABBR and growing.

Just a little intel for ya - when I brought up legal stuff with my H, I did it b/c I was scared and I was looking for a glimpse of what he might be aiming at me. She doesn't bring this stuff up with you b/c she thinks she has it all buttoned down - just the opposite.

Be tough. Get smart.

Excellent advice!!!!

[CABBR]

Thanks Rob,

This woman is lying about everything right now. She wouldn't even admit how she found her current lawyer.

She actually asked me this morning whether I would cosign a home equity loan on the condo to try to reduce debt on legal expenses. She is assuming that I would entirely liable for her legal expenses. I said are you kidding? Make me liable for your debts before a court has anything to say about it?

She also demanded that I provide a whole bunch of financial information that she needs "by tomorrow afternoon." my lawyer told me that I have share finanical information but I'm not going to jump through hoops to get it.

You're right in that she's been doing whatever she wants. I certainly am not shy about speaking my mind. I think over the last couple of years she has just been baiting me to see how far she can push before I really bite. That's warped a perspective you get after a while.

Cabbr

[CABBR]

OK, so the latest is that my W wanted me to cosign a home equity loan and now she's asking me to pay her entire amex bill from June, which includes a junket with her sister and her new phone/calling plan which cost nearly 6 times the one I bought for her. Her request seems really presumptious.

I think she may go on an outing tomorrow with the kids and I - not sure, but that would be kind of an about face. She ate dinner with the family tonight, and was in super clean up mode for the last couple of days - totally out of character for recent history.

Still hell bent on getting the financial information together for her attorney. Definitely all about divorce.

My older son asked tonight why Mommy doesn't like to do things with us. I said I know, I'm sorry - you'll have to ask her.

[CABBR]

I think she's been instructed to show some effort in keeping the housein order - something she did not spend much time on in recent years.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I think she's been instructed to show some effort in keeping the housein order - something she did not spend much time on in recent years.

Any good D atty would have advised her to do this.

I hope to god you're not co-signing the loan, nor paying her AmEx bill???

[Puppy Dog Tails]

OK, so the latest is that my W wanted me to cosign a home equity loan and now she's asking me to pay her entire amex bill from June, which includes a junket with her sister and her new phone/calling plan which cost nearly 6 times the one I bought for her. Her request seems really presumptious.

No, I would say her request is really ENTITLED. Trust me, and I speak from experience, if your marriage is to ever make it, you will have a much harder time killing the Entitlement beast than you will the Infidelity one.

Puppy

[robx]

Thanks Rob,

This woman is lying about everything right now. She wouldn't even admit how she found her current lawyer.

She actually asked me this morning whether I would cosign a home equity loan on the condo to try to reduce debt on legal expenses. She is assuming that I would entirely liable for her legal expenses. I said are you kidding? Make me liable for your debts before a court has anything to say about it?

She also demanded that I provide a whole bunch of financial information that she needs "by tomorrow afternoon." my lawyer told me that I have share finanical information but I'm not going to jump through hoops to get it.

You're right in that she's been doing whatever she wants. I certainly am not shy about speaking my mind. I think over the last couple of years she has just been baiting me to see how far she can push before I really bite. That's warped a perspective you get after a while.

Cabbr

Tell her at this point she doesn't get to make demands on you.
If she requires financial information for her lawyer, have her lawyer submit a request to your lawyer and you can fulfill that request once it's rec'd.

Just let her know that you understand that she is angry but that doesn't mean you will allow her to bully you.

Asking you to co-sign that loan is her grasping at straws, she wants things immediately and you don't have to jump at her every request. In fact you do the opposite.

There are consequences for everyone's actions, her karma is biting her in the ass right now. The divorce will be expensive if she goes through with it and trust me, you won't be on the hook for 100%, she will pay her fair share if that's what she truly wants. NO ONE can force you to do anything you don't want to.

Let her file for divorce, let her pay for it and let her learn that living without you means living without your help, every one of these requests from her sounds like she's asking for help but in her usual bullying ways.

Smile and tell her "No Thank you".

[robx]

it's not a warped perspective either,
women test men, it's a requirement, women are hardwired to do it, they have to do it continually to make sure that the mate they are with is strong enough to protect them. It's an instinct that has existed since man first learned to walk upright. Just because its 2009 AD and not 10000 BC doesn't mean those instincts have been phased out & changed. Men are still men, women are still women - that's how attraction works between the two and when you learn what creates attraction you will also learn what kills it and what you may have done to kill it for her to treat you so badly and so disrespectfully. She has stepped over every boundary with you and you allowed her all in the name of love and she slowly but surely disrespected you more & more because of it until she hit her tipping point where inside of her something told her to leave her mate and start searching for someone else more attractive, more masculine, stronger and able to provide her with the kind of security that she needed from you. When she realized that she was stronger than you at a certain point in the relationship that was her cue to start searching for another mate, someone stronger & more attractive than you (and more attractive meaning exhibiting more masculine traits, not necessarily better looking).

Some people may think I'm full of $hit on this, but I'm telling you that there is so much more to this issue than people are willing to concede. There is a science to this.

For the time being you need to stand strong and weather her attacks on you. You need to set boundaries, ie. when she starts talking poorly to you, tell her in a firm voice "that's enough, you will talk to me respectfully or you will go away until you learn to do so!" and then you would leave the room or area and come back when you want. She talks poorly to you again, you repeat this all over again with what was just mentioned above and leaving. You do this a few times for both you & her: you setup a pattern of behavior that you will learn to employ when she acts poorly & disrepectfully to you, it shows that you respect yourself and won't allow anyone to treat you like crap, you are establishing boundaries that people including your wife will learn to respect and she will learn after a while that you won't tolerate her disrespectful behavior and any crap that comes out of her mouth.

It may not seem like it works in the beginning and may take several times to get the desired response you want from her but you will in effect be "training" her to talk to you properly by setting these boundaries. No, obviously she isn't a pet but we train people in our lives to treat us the way they do, if you have a best friend, he probably doesn't treat you like crap & vice versa because you've trained each other to respect each other, the same goes for your wife. Love or NO LOVE, there must always be respect and when she says something really poorly to you, you add on something to the end of what I mentioned above like "and if you ever want to speak to me again, you will APOLOGIZE for disrespectful behavior or you will not talk to me at all and it will be YOUR loss not mine."

And then just walk away.

It works, you want stuff that works, I'm giving you stuff that works, start using it and use it often and then tell me the response you get from her and don't stop doing it, you will see positive results, I wouldn't waste my time typing here if I didn't know that this worked.

It worked for me and the disrespectful behaviors my wife showed towards me and she was originally someone I let cross over every boundary and treat me poorly & disrespectfully now she knows I won't tolerate it and when she does have an outburst I don't even have to tell her to apologize - when I leave the area or stop talking to her altogether, I get a phone call within a few hours to my cell (because I left the area, I have a life and other things to do that occupy my time, my life isn't spent chasing her) and on the other end it's my wife saying "I'm sorry about earlier, I didn't mean to act like that and it wasn't nice of me to be like that".

If you want her to start treating you with respect, you need to start respecting yourself, until you do that, you won't be able to get any changes out of her.

Believe it.

[CABBR]

I think she's been instructed to show some effort in keeping the housein order - something she did not spend much time on in recent years.

Any good D atty would have advised her to do this.

I hope to god you're not co-signing the loan, nor paying her AmEx bill???

Hi PDT,

I told her tonight that I'm not cosigning a loan or paying the charges on the AMEX not related to the family. She's going to go ahead with some motion I think for support. She's been gathering all sorts of finanical data to show her contribution to the marriage , which in the first half was very significant.

She approached it like she was doing me a favor to minimize expenses and interest because I'd just have to pay later.

She offered me a 3 day custody situation today. I said I want 50%, she said how can you do that if you work full time? I had previously said that I'd be glad to have after school care or pick them up from her.

I told her I feel sorry for her - she asked why, I just said for a lot of reasons.

I told her this whole thing is really foolish. Today I took my sons on an outing to a military fort museum - she declined to come. My older son asked repeatedly why she couldn't come with us. She just said she had things to do and that he should do stuff with Daddy. My son kept bemoaning that she never eats dinner with us, is always shopping or going out, etc. He's starting to sound like me.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I know you have every right, but you're not going to be effective telling her you "feel sorry for her," and calling her "foolish."

Try to validate, while not agreeing (assuming it's something disagreeable) by saying "I understand you feel this way, but this is what I've decided would be best for the kids," or "I understand you're upset, but this is what I'm prepared to do. If you want to fight it legally, I suppose that's your right and I can't stop you, but for now this is what I've decided would be best."

Puppy

[CABBR]

Hi Rob,

It's a weird dynamic with my wife. There is definitely this blue streak of entitlement and indignancy when I try to do a realty check. But she checked out so long ago emotionally that I'm just barking up a tree. She really hasn't given a crap about her marriage in a very long time.

While I have let the situation fester by not being more proactive. I'm a little too much type A if anything. And my W is really turned off by my confrontational approach. She finds me too much the way you describe. She avoids confrontation and feels there are many things she shouldn't need to say.

When I talk to her tonight, she's not being rude or particularly disrespectful - only in the fact that she seems to be certain I will eventually pay her legal fees and will end up with one day a week and every other weekend.

Tonight, she's still harping on about what I did. When I said fel sorry for her and this whole thing is wrong, she said you can't seriously think I would get back together with you after what happened last week. I said you act as if you are blameless, that you did nothing wrong. I told her OM's W thanked me several times for telling her. My W says I hope you're proud about it. She's so self righteous - it's surreal.

[CABBR]

I know you have every right, but you're not going to be effective telling her you "feel sorry for her," and calling her "foolish."

Try to validate, while not agreeing (assuming it's something disagreeable) by saying "I understand you feel this way, but this is what I've decided would be best for the kids," or "I understand you're upset, but this is what I'm prepared to do. If you want to fight it legally, I suppose that's your right and I can't stop you, but for now this is what I've decided would be best."

Puppy

Thanks PDT, I have to remember that part. To validate, but not necessarily agree. I have to try to avoid having the discussion get heated. I was calm, but certainly the level of agitation was climbing.

[GH31]

It works, you want stuff that works, I'm giving you stuff that works, start using it and use it often and then tell me the response you get from her and don't stop doing it, you will see positive results, I wouldn't waste my time typing here if I didn't know that this worked.

I have done the same thing with my W that Rob describes and it does work.

That doesn't stop my W doing very deranged and sick things (see my thread) but she apologizes when I call her on her spoiled brat behaviour, which I always do.

[CABBR]

PDT,

We have been going to a cottage on a lake, which is about a day's drive for us for more than 20 years. My W inherited the cottage with her brother, with whom I get along with well. We go there every year for our primary summer vacation. It's a beautiful spot and there is another cottage next door owned by my SIL who can be difficult.

If I want to take the kids to the lake, there is absolutely nothing my W can do about it. I can take the kids for summer vacation and avoid my toxic SILs or do something else entirely. My W would probably arrive later and bring them home.
My sense is to do something else, even though it will cost a lot more money, which I'm not going to have before too long.

[CABBR]

Puppy, Greek,Coach, Robx, thanks so much for your support.

So yesteday, I received a copy of the summons and complaint and an acceptance of service form, which I have to sign and send to my lawyer. I imagine it will be filed this week. First time I have ever been named as a defendant in anything. What was really nice was seeing the names of our children in a civil complaint - that was really swell.

Right now I'm just looking at my W with pity and disgust. We've got two great kids and as Puppy says she is not going to be a hero for them.

My lawyer has all the financial information from the last few months. My W's lawyer is preparing a proposal with respect to interim parental rights and responsibilities and "other issues." I will also have to give my W some kind of allowance. In my state you can file prospectively. There is a 6 month waiting period. They said the date of separation was July 1, so right after Christmas my boys will get an extra present of having their family split apart. I believe my W wants to live for the next 6 months as if we were living in separate homes and dividing the parental rights and responsibilities in the same way. I'm not sure whether this is something a court would grant but will know more once the "proposal" is submitted.

Cabbr

I went out last night to the hobby store and got my younger son some model RR track that I'd been meaning to get for a long time. I set it up after they went to bed and told him about it in the morning. He was thrilled.

I have to travel to the west coast today on business returning on a redeye on Friday morning.

[AlexEN]

cabbr,

Looks like we'll be going down this legal path in parallel with each other...

I know laws vary from state-to-state, but let's let each other know as issues come up, as it sounds like your wife has the same kind of expectations as mine does...

-AlexEN

[CABBR]

Thanks Alex. Will do.

I felt like asking last night, so why are you doing this again...?

Was it because I put too much butter in the cream cheese frosting of the scratch carrot cake I usually make for your birthday? (Of course this will confirm everyone's opinion of me here as being hopelessly co-dependent.)

[CABBR]

Puppy,Greek

What are your thoughts on going on vacation with my kids to my W's family's lake compound? I 've been going there for 23 years. the kids love it. I can probably avoid my SIL while I'm there. (She may not even be there at the same time.) Or should I just find something else to do with the kids?

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I would do whatever YOU want to do. If you enjoy it, and your kids enjoy it, then you should go. If you'd be doing it just to "not rock the boat" or "not make her angry" or something, then I'd say no, do something different.

I do think, however, that if you DO go, you should also consider scheduling something for JUST you and the kids soon.

Puppy

[CABBR]

I would do whatever YOU want to do. If you enjoy it, and your kids enjoy it, then you should go. If you'd be doing it just to "not rock the boat" or "not make her angry" or something, then I'd say no, do something different.

I do think, however, that if you DO go, you should also consider scheduling something for JUST you and the kids soon.

Puppy

Thanks Puppy. I have some ideas about things I can do with the kids. They will be excited to go to the lake, but I'm still undecided. There is a community of friends that I get along with well, but my SIL can be quite meddling and I want this vacation to be my time with my boys. I'm definitely not considering going to the lake to not rock the boat or avoid getting my W angry. She is just full speed ahead on the D. If anything it would be seen as pretty brazen given that my wife is filing. At this point, I'm pretty sure she would prefer that I not go. I've got to give it some more thought.

My lawyer told me that we should not let the court decied on temporary custody issues and money. That once we see the "proposal" from my W's attorney that we will negotiate something. Isn't this also capitulating? Is th eide to burn the financial house to the ground on principal or cut the best deal you can given the hand your dealt?

Cabbr

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I think the difference between "negotiating" and "capitulating" is a question of DEGREE.

It depends on what your exposure is, if it goes to court. For example, if I were to D my wife, I'd be staring at permanent alimony in my state. So, if we can do so amicably, I'd be better off with mediation and seeing if I can get a 5- or 10-year tiered alimony arrangement set up and agreed to.

Know what you want, know what the risks and likely outcomes would be if it went to court as "contested," and negotiate from there. But no, don't capitulate -- esp. considering your history of doing so.

Puppy

[robx]

Thanks Alex. Will do.

I felt like asking last night, so why are you doing this again...?

Was it because I put too much butter in the cream cheese frosting of the scratch carrot cake I usually make for your birthday? (Of course this will confirm everyone's opinion of me here as being hopelessly co-dependent.)

I don't know about hopelessly co-dependant but I can tell you that it isn't very masculine, it's very feminine and that isn't going to generate attraction in your walk away wife.

No more baking cakes, gifts and any other such non-sense.
Your wife wants a real man and she'll find one somewhere else unless you start showing that you are a real man.

[robx]

I would do whatever YOU want to do. If you enjoy it, and your kids enjoy it, then you should go. If you'd be doing it just to "not rock the boat" or "not make her angry" or something, then I'd say no, do something different.

I do think, however, that if you DO go, you should also consider scheduling something for JUST you and the kids soon.

Puppy

Thanks Puppy. I have some ideas about things I can do with the kids. They will be excited to go to the lake, but I'm still undecided. There is a community of friends that I get along with well, but my SIL can be quite meddling and I want this vacation to be my time with my boys. I'm definitely not considering going to the lake to not rock the boat or avoid getting my W angry. She is just full speed ahead on the D. If anything it would be seen as pretty brazen given that my wife is filing. At this point, I'm pretty sure she would prefer that I not go. I've got to give it some more thought.

My lawyer told me that we should not let the court decied on temporary custody issues and money. That once we see the "proposal" from my W's attorney that we will negotiate something. Isn't this also capitulating? Is th eide to burn the financial house to the ground on principal or cut the best deal you can given the hand your dealt?

Cabbr

You will never get more than you ask for so always ask for the best.

If your lawyer is already in the mode that you've lost and you should sign whatever your wife throws at you and keep it kind & polite with her otherwise she'll take you to the cleaners, speak to your lawyer and set him straight and that if that's all he's there for is to help you sign documents, that it's not good enough for you and you will start looking for other lawyers.

Men need to stand up for themselves.

You need to speak up.

Women have so much power nowadays because it was given to them because they fought for it. Whatever is worth the price is worth the fight.

I mentioned it to you already, the courts should be deciding in the best interests of the children. How old are your kids? Are you documenting the effects that she has on them? Are you writing it down? You mentioned that your son has noticed that she doesn't eat meals with him, she is always out shopping - are you making note of this? It does make a difference if you make it that way.

Plus you sound like business guy of sorts, work in an office, some sort of sales/mgmt position,etc. Can't you work a few days from home, vpn into work, etc. I do it all the time, 2 days a week at least, if you aren't doing this, you should be looking into it. This way you have an argument that you can work from home and that would allow you the ability to have the kids for 50% of the time or more.

Clarity.

When I stopped asking for everything else from God, I asked for clarity, I asked him "help me see things, give me clues along the way, give me ideas, am I going in the right direction, etc."

Clarity.

Start opening your eyes and seeing the situation, make note of the things in your environment, make note of the effect on your children, make note of that fact that she is spending less time with them and the effect on them, make note of her general attitude towards you, make note of her crap spending habits and irresponsible behavior.

Stop being a victim.

If your dumb ass lawyer won't do what's necessary to defend you & your rights as a human being (not man or woman), find another one. Find a lawyer, consult with him, and ask him what lawyer he would hire if his wife came after him and was as unreasonable as yours. Tell them that you won't just die and submit to every request and sign over everything you have - you have rights and they must be recognized. If you are being penalized because your wife is cheating on you, there is something wrong with this legal system: get up, get involved, do some research and stop presenting yourself as this ineffectual defeatist who has no options and will lose the fight.

Your thoughts manifest your actions which manifest how you live your life - get a handle on this TODAY!

[CABBR]

Thanks Rob and Puppy. I appreciate the insights.

Believe me, I'm not baking cakes these days. But some women appreciate men who can cook. It's not something that really defines who I am. I also fix cars and fly airplanes and can bench 200 lbs.

I'm not sure how proactive or aggressive my lawyer is just yet. I'll have a better feel once we see what my W is offering and what my lawyer believes is attainable. My lawyer is not in the mode that I've lost because she was OK with my cutting off the money. She just wanted to be able to show that I wasn't being unreasonable, which the financial records support.

My kids are 6 and 9 and I have a good and close relationship with both of them. I spend a lot of time with them and have always been there. I like the idea of working from home. There are people in my company that do a fair bit of that and I see no reason why I couldn't do the same. And yes, I am keeping an extensive journal documenting every time my son says something about my wife not being around as well as the money and everything else.

Thanks again Rob.

Cabbr

[CABBR]

Today the whole family spent the day at our friends' lake home. I was shocked my wife wanted to come along especially in view of the conversation we had last night. Everyone had a nice time and the kids really enjoyed it. boating, kayaking, and tubing.

The night before my W asked me when she could take the kids to the lake we've been going to for 23 years. She doesn't want me to be there and made clear her family isn't too interested in seeing me either. So I'll have to figure out something else to do with the kids for vacation.

She wants to take them for two weeks and I told her I'd have to think about it but we otherwise agreed on a start date. Even though the kids would enjoy themselves, I'm not really keen on having them away for two weeks because in another few months my living and custody situation may be drastically different.

My W still maintains this holier than thou attitude about the EA. Said she was having fun. But made clear she doesn't give a $h!t what I think. I said clearly. she asked me how I thought exposing would help our relationship, I said very simply that I would do anything to eliminate a threat to our marriage. She was getting more and more agitated as she spoke.

The ironic thing is she admitted that OM and his W are going to counseling and that one positive outcome is that they seem to be getting back on track. So, I'm like why are you so mad?

Her primary concern now is about my anger in dealing with our kids about this - says she's very worried about it. And I say well I'm not the one who's angry and if you can't speak to me civilly then I don't want to continue the conversation. I told her I was still fighting for this family and the marriage and she was totally dismissive of any hope of Reonciliation.

She said I would be served in a few days and that I forced it on her because I cut off the money. Said I had no right to take the rent income, etc. I said what are you talking about? I'm still supporting you - just not your lifestyle.

She brought up her support of me going to schoool 15 years ago and her considerable financial contribution to the marriage. I said that was at a point when we were both committed to the marriage and neither of us was squandering marital assets. Ugh.

Cabbr.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

CABBR,

I'd be very hesitant to agree to a 2-week vacation of the kids away from you. A family court may see that as some sort of precedent, and there's no reason why she should be calling all the shots here.

Puppy

[CABBR]

CABBR,

I'd be very hesitant to agree to a 2-week vacation of the kids away from you. A family court may see that as some sort of precedent, and there's no reason why she should be calling all the shots here.

Puppy

Thanks Puppy. That's kind of where I was landing on this one. I'll keep you advised on the legal stuff - haven't received the "proposal" yet.

[CABBR]

It's been about one week, so thought I would check in with Puppy, Greek, robx.

My W hasn't actually filed yet. We had a meeting with a child psychologist last week about my older s9 and the kids in general regarding this "transition." The psychologist said that we should not tell the kids anything until we know what's going to happen and when. This seemed like sound advice. I pointed out that from what I understand my W intends to force the issue legally in the near term, but I wasn't aware of any proposal as yet.

In the course of this discussion my W made clear she wants living arrangements sorted out before the kids go back to school. Meaning she wants me out of the house so she can sleep in our bedroom. She is really getting resentful abou tsleeping in the basement. I'm like too bad. (There's a lot of stuff she misses at night and in the morning.)I think there is little chance of her forcing that issue legally. My Lawyer says it's common for one spouse to attempt this, but it's a lot harder than they realize.

My W was really pressing for mediation regarding custody to avoid leagal fees. (I think she was feeling the financial heat attendant with a long protracted legal battle.)So I reiterated that I want at least 50% custody and she wasn't willing to compromise. She said that our s6 needs his Mother and I said he needs his Father too. Anyway, I agreed to meet with a mediator, but she probably thinks she will be better able to get what she wants. All I know is I'm not agreeing to anything less than 50%, but will participate. I have a schedule I want to propose where we take every other weekend with the weekend starting on Friday morning and then split the remaining 4 days - two a piece.

I took my kids to church for the first time in three months on Sunday. we used to go regularly. They don't like it of course, but my younger son has to make his communion next year, and I wanted to reestablish that activity. (My W never attended with us.)

My W took the kids to the beach yesterday with another couple of kids. I had to fix one of the cars, but met them afterward. I swam with my older s9 and his friend in the waves and we had a great time. We'll definitely be going to the ocean next month. Then I got pizza and I took s9 to see the Harry Potter movie, which he enjoyed.

We came home and my W had put my s6 to bed on the couch in the family room. He wanted to have a campout on the couch. After putting s9 to bed she came into "my" room and was all smiley about what to do with s6, i.e. should we leave him down there. I said if we wants to sleep there it's OK with me. But I moved him later when I took him to the bathroom because he got kind of hot on the couch.

Cabbr

[iwantittowork]

Hey Cabbr, nice to see an update from you.

Sounds like you had a decent day at the beach with the kids and the W?

After having gone to a couple mediation meetings myself now, I can tell you I was completely apprehensive at first. However, during the meeting, the mediator was very fair, and I felt better after coming out of it, though it was very emotional.

One thing my L told me, was to state up front, and make the mediator aware, that I was not in agreement with getting a D, and that I still had feelings for my W and M, and that I felt at a disadvantage in this situation. This was to ensure that my W did not try to take over mediation with her agenda. My L told me any mediator that was good, would note that, and try and ensure that both parties views were heard.

[CABBR]

Thanks IWITW,

Yes ,we had fun, but my W stayed on the beach with my s6 and his friend. I had little interaction with her. I treat her politely but show no interest, which I think suits her.

At one point, she said she picked up my phone message from earlier. I had called to ask when they'd be coming home because I had finished puttering with the car and wanted to spend time with my kids. The day before my kids and I waited at the house because she was playing tennis with her friends. She was gone a lot longer than she said and we could have gone somewhere and didn't, so I was trying to make the point that we'd appreciate a little heads up. Anyway, she tried to engage and I wasn't really communicative because it didn't matter since I came to the beach. I only wanted to spend time with my kids.

As far as the mediation, I had a lengthy initial phone conversation with the mediator and she understands where I'm coming from. I will not be steamrolled into something I don't want. I want my kids at least half the time and will burn the financial house to the ground to get it.

Cabbr

[Puppy Dog Tails]

One thing my L told me, was to state up front, and make the mediator aware, that I was not in agreement with getting a D, and that I still had feelings for my W and M, and that I felt at a disadvantage in this situation. This was to ensure that my W did not try to take over mediation with her agenda. My L told me any mediator that was good, would note that, and try and ensure that both parties views were heard.

I like that a lot.

Puppy

[CABBR]

So last Night was interesting.

As my s9 and I are returning home from baseball, My W is towing my s6 in a wagon with a friend of hers from across the street. The other woman is towing a wagon as well with booze and appetizers for a get together at another friend's house in the neighborhood whose kids are friendly with mine. I had just seen the woman hosting the soiree at the baseball game. It's about 7:40, which is usually when s6 is spooling down for bed.

My W had taken our boys to the beach along with their friends. and is still wearing these really short beach cover up shorts and a halter top. She looks like sex on a stick - showing about as much skin as you possibly could and still be wearing something. She is a 47 year old Mother of two. She’s very tan and looks phenomenal, but it just seems a tad inappropriate for the neighborhood. Mind you she NEVER wore stuff like that in the 23 years we've been together.

My W says that I can bring s9 over for a swim if he wants and I say OK.

I grab some dinner and s9 and I ride our bikes over. There's a couple of other women there along with my entire family. The host who is a very nice gal offers me a beer and to have a seat. I decline because I know this is supposed to be a girls only thing, but she asks me again a few minutes later and I say OK sure.

They're all drinking martinis and as my s6 is drying off from the pool, he says that Mommy let him drink alcohol. My W says she let him have a few sips of a martini.

S6 is sitting on my lap and keeps saying repeatedly that Mommy let me drink alcohol – over and over. (I’m thinking to myself –if these other women only knew what was going on.) In reality, it’s not that big a deal, but she continues to show poor judgment and a reluctance to just say no when the kids ask for something.

I finish my beer and take my s6 home in the wagon and leave the bike for my W.

On the way we run into another couple in the neighborhood at whose house my s6 (in the wagon) had a two hour play date that day, so my W could go to the gym.

I get my s6 into bed and my W returns at about 9:00 with s9. She says do you mind if I go back and I'm sort of flummoxed that she's even asking and I say go ahead. So I put s9 to bed and he's asking when is Mommy coming home - as usual I don't have an answer for him. She gets home at midnight.

Cabbr

[robx]

Thanks IWITW,

Yes ,we had fun, but my W stayed on the beach with my s6 and his friend. I had little interaction with her. I treat her politely but show no interest, which I think suits her.

At one point, she said she picked up my phone message from earlier. I had called to ask when they'd be coming home because I had finished puttering with the car and wanted to spend time with my kids. The day before my kids and I waited at the house because she was playing tennis with her friends. She was gone a lot longer than she said and we could have gone somewhere and didn't, so I was trying to make the point that we'd appreciate a little heads up. Anyway, she tried to engage and I wasn't really communicative because it didn't matter since I came to the beach. I only wanted to spend time with my kids.

As far as the mediation, I had a lengthy initial phone conversation with the mediator and she understands where I'm coming from. I will not be steamrolled into something I don't want. I want my kids at least half the time and will burn the financial house to the ground to get it.

Cabbr

That's the attitude that says "I know my value now and I'm worth it!" and that's the attitude that will get noticed.

Good job bro, it took you long enough to say these words and actually say it with feeling and I'm glad it finally happened. When you start to value & respect yourself enough, you promote the same feeling in others around you towards you, your wife included ;-)

[CABBR]

Thank Rob. I've saved a bunch of the posts from you, Puppy and Greek and others. I reread them now and then to sort of recharge my batteries and for clarity. It's hard to see clearly sometimes when you're in the middle of this stuff plus it's emotionally and physically draining.

Solid advice from all. This woman is an alien and it's going to be a helluva ride in the next few months. I don't see closure on living arrangements until at least after the new year. Still no filing - not sure why. But don't believe it has anything to do with 2d thoughts on her part.

Cabbr

[robx]

Thank Rob. I've saved a bunch of the posts from you, Puppy and Greek and others. I reread them now and then to sort of recharge my batteries and for clarity. It's hard to see clearly sometimes when you're in the middle of this stuff plus it's emotionally and physically draining.

Solid advice from all. This woman is an alien and it's going to be a helluva ride in the next few months. I don't see closure on living arrangements until at least after the new year. Still no filing - not sure why. But don't believe it has anything to do with 2d thoughts on her part.

Cabbr

I don't know about "alien" (LOL!) but she is a totally different person from the woman you originally started seeing, dating, loving and eventually got married to and had children with.

She is an emotional being who is currently in love with her feelings which at the moment tend to be at total odds against you and your logic.

Male logic, female emotion.
Logic will never trump emotion.

Reasoning in your head that your wife should not be doing any of the actions she is currently involved in and she shouldn't be this "evil" person towards you is a waste of time.

Don't rationalize it, don't reason it, don't try to sort it out with your logic. Nothing of what she does right now can be explained by logic aside from a few things:

- along the way she lost respect for you
- losing respect meant she stopped loving you the way she did originally
- loss of respect for you is what killed her attraction & love for you
- along the way she got the idea that she could do whatever she wanted at your expense and hurt you in the process and she rationalized her behavior as being ok
- since she doesn't respect you, she looks at you like you are a doormat that she can walk all over without any consequences
- standing up for yourself will rebuild respect between the two of you, stopping her from walking all over you is healthy for you to do because you will start to rebuild your confidence (which is attractive), your self-value and your self-respect

Drop the rope, don't communicate with her anymore, let her do what she wants with her life as long as you aren't affected. If she does something to adversely affect your life, put your hand up in a "STOP" motion and tell her "that's enough!". Learn to say "NO" to her, tell her that you can't control her but you sure as heck control what you yourself do and you will from now on and that means putting a stop to her crap behavior towards you. You will no longer reward her crap behavior with your attention and you will stand up for yourself when you need to so that she knows that you won't be pushed around or bullied into something you don't want.

cabbr, you're worth it, I'm glad you are starting to realize this.

[CABBR]

Rob,

- along the way she lost respect for you
- losing respect meant she stopped loving you the way she did originally
- loss of respect for you is what killed her attraction & love for you
- along the way she got the idea that she could do whatever she wanted at your expense and hurt you in the process and she rationalized her behavior as being ok
- since she doesn't respect you, she looks at you like you are a doormat that she can walk all over without any consequences
- standing up for yourself will rebuild respect between the two of you, stopping her from walking all over you is healthy for you to do because you will start to rebuild your confidence (which is attractive), your self-value and your self-respect

You absolutely nailed it.

Thanks, Cabbr

[ShockedOne]

Rob, I love that post! Those are words for us all to live by!

[CABBR]

Puppy, Greek, Robx, SO, IWITW,

We had the first mediation session regarding custody yesterday.

My W stated her goals of maintaining stability for the kids and minimal transitions during the week.

Initially, she proposed S-W with her and Th-F-S with me. I said this is not a 50% split and I don't have a weekend night free. (She thought since "I don't do anything" that I wouldn't mind. Ugh.)

I proposed the M-T and Th-F split and every other weekend with weekends starting on Friday morning, which basically means 5 days on 5 days off. My W didn't want to not be able to see the kids for 5 days in a row (which wouldn't need to be the case) and thought it lacked continuity for the school week. (She views her heavy involvement with the school as directly bearing on child care.)

My W then proposed that I could take the kids on Sunday and leave my Saturday open - and she would throw in the house. (OK, Monty) This would be a 4/3 split but with 4 transitions.

Mind you the house is a complicated issue. She wants to buy a "smaller" house in the part of town serviced by the school and they just don't come up every day.

Another house would also cost at least 300k. We would net something like 150k from the sale of our condo, which would then leave a 150k mortgage on the new house. This also presumes that all of the equity from the condo would be rolled into the purchase of a new house. Now this could be reconciled eventually by the sale of our house in Florida, which might yield around 250k in equity. There is also a sizeable mortage on the primary home, which should be applied equally too.

The other issue is logistics. The current condo lease is up at the end of this year and the lease on the house in Florida is up in May 2010.

Realistically, the condo will not be sold until at least January 2010 and the FL house much later.

So.. and this is really not my problem... my wife will not have any where to go for a good 6-7 months at least. This is assuming I can afford the cost of two separate houses and if I can't it will be much longer. Lately, she's really complaining about being in the basement - the resentment is consuming her. Of course, she parked herself there.

On custody, I am still pretty much camped at 50%, but it may mean an expensive court battle, in which some or all of this equity will be consumed. So I've got to get some counsel on this but I think my lawyer is on vacation.

At one point my W had stated that she really hadn't made up her mind regarding the D until july 1 when the exposure bomb detonated. I pointed out that prior to July 1 she was knee deep in an EA, talking about dating while living under the same roof, and that she told me before the EA bomb that she had pretty much decided on D. Plus her approach to MC was just exit strategy. So no thank you. That little fairy tale may be something you tell your friends and family but I'm not going to let it pass in this venue. Not much to say.

Cabbr

[Puppy Dog Tails]

At one point my W had stated that she really hadn't made up her mind regarding the D until july 1 when the exposure bomb detonated. I pointed out that prior to July 1 she was knee deep in an EA, talking about dating while living under the same roof, and that she told me before the EA bomb that she had pretty much decided on D. Plus her approach to MC was just exit strategy. So no thank you. That little fairy tale may be something you tell your friends and family but I'm not going to let it pass in this venue. Not much to say.

BINGO -- well defended.

Your mediator should be able to suggest some other "50/50" type custody arrangements that are more traditional. I do think stability for the kids during the school week is a plus, but then again there isn't anything ABOUT your wife's current lifestyle or decision-making that exactly screams out "stable", either.

Puppy

[Greek]

Custody - stay camped on 50/50. Period. Tell her, if anything, you want more custody, and you will not budge off of this.

Sale of the condo - wouldn't you get half of the 150K sale of the property? The house that she buys is NOT CABBR's problem. You take care of the family home - as you have - and let her struggle with her foxhole.

Give away NOTHING. Nothing. Give her reality - rescue her not at all.


This is not about being ugly or being an a$$ just to stick it to her. This is about CABBR doesn't want this D. CABBR wants to keep his family together, wants to have a new marriage with his W. So CABBR does nothing that works against those goals. AND AND AND - if Mrs. CABBR wants a new life on her own, she can have it but you won't help - with a house, with her sched, with her anything. She'll have to be a BIG GIRL and do what BIG GIRLS do - get off Daddy's dime and take care of themselves.

[CABBR]

Thanks Greek and Puppy,

Greek you are fired up this AM.

My kids are worth the fight and it will be costly. She says captiulating on the house is against all the advice she has been given. She says if I want to pursue a court resolution on custody she will go for everything she's entitled (love that word) to.

My W will see me as causing needless expense further damaging the family's finances. (Of course who did the damage in the first place.) She continues to exude confidence that she will get the house and a better custody arrangment than what she's offering. Our next session with the mediator is a couple of weeks away, so I've got some time to chew on this.

BTW, my W also emailed OM the day before, so there is still contact to some degree. She wanted to "drop some things off" as she was driving through presumably with our kids after an outing. He lives about an hour away. She signed it: "miss you"

She is beside herself about whether I am still gathering intel. Again wanted to know how I knew the things I did. I said it was irrelevant - the essential fact was that she was putting this relationship ahead of her marriage - and family.

Also at the end of the exchange regarding her working at the marriage prior to July 1, she said I'm not going to deal with your anger - just not going to do it. I said my anger? I haven't lost my temper once through this entire ordeal. I said she was the one who lost it on me.

And yes, I would net half of the condo equity. As far as getting off Daddy's dime, the reality is I will have to pay support and maintenance for maybe 5 years until she's established in a real job.

Cabbr

[Greek]

Coach was TOUGH in the legal arena with me and it FORCED me to face the realities of what I was doing/giving up/causing in terms of our family, children, home, future. Sure, I was going to make it on my own - but having to FIGHT him in COURT to do it really gave me a SERIOUS pause to conside in REAL TERMS what lie ahead and if I REALLY WANTED to do what I was trying to do.

Also, as a woman, it seriously offends me when a sister kicks up a dust storm about leaving her husband but wants HIM to enable it. If a woman has a good enough reason to leave a M (and there are some), then by God woman, do it. But don't expect H (or OM) to foot the bill. That's little girl behavior and it makes Women look silly.

So yeah - fired up.

Cheers ~~~

[Puppy Dog Tails]

CABBR,

What state are you in? Is it a "no-fault" state? To what extent is adultery/infidelity allowed to be used in determining custody arrangements?

I suspect that THIS:

She says if I want to pursue a court resolution on custody she will go for everything she's entitled (love that word) to.

. . . is going to run smack-dab into THIS:

She is beside herself about whether I am still gathering intel. Again wanted to know how I knew the things I did.

. . . in the context of THIS:

go for everything she's entitled (love that word) to.

Not knowing what you have on her is going to be a HUGE source of concern for her, and perhaps rightfully so.

Puppy

[Bravehardt]

Give away NOTHING. Nothing. Give her reality - rescue her not at all.


This is not about being ugly or being an a$$ just to stick it to her. This is about CABBR doesn't want this D. CABBR wants to keep his family together, wants to have a new marriage with his W. So CABBR does nothing that works against those goals. AND AND AND - if Mrs. CABBR wants a new life on her own, she can have it but you won't help - with a house, with her sched, with her anything. She'll have to be a BIG GIRL and do what BIG GIRLS do - get off Daddy's dime and take care of themselves

This is just simply an awesome statement.

I have not gotten to this point but the W is pushing for a legal seperation to establish some sort of financial support. I keep throwing it back at her and tell her she need to own her WAW status.

Greek maybe you could look at my sitch.

[mac-ct]

Greek,

Thank you from the bottom of my male heart for this.

Was going to quote the above and the rest from Greek but decided to save the bandwidth - read it, digest it, remember it.

Brave you spotted this. Took note, I agree wholeheartedly.

A gem of the highest caliber.

A fighting his a$$ off Mac

[CABBR]

CABBR,

What state are you in? Is it a "no-fault" state? To what extent is adultery/infidelity allowed to be used in determining custody arrangements?

I suspect that THIS:

She says if I want to pursue a court resolution on custody she will go for everything she's entitled (love that word) to.

. . . is going to run smack-dab into THIS:

She is beside herself about whether I am still gathering intel. Again wanted to know how I knew the things I did.

. . . in the context of THIS:

go for everything she's entitled (love that word) to.

Not knowing what you have on her is going to be a HUGE source of concern for her, and perhaps rightfully so.

Puppy

Puppy,

It's a no fault state requiring a 6 month separation period that can be in house. A spouse can file prospectively, which is what mine is doing.

Unfortunately, adultery has no bearing on custody, but it can be somewhat determinitive in the distribution of assets. I'm not sure how. L is on vacation.

I'm not so sure my W is worried about the legal ramifications in this regard as much as whether or not she will have to worry about me "stalking" her in perpetuity. She actually voiced this concern at one point.

My W first met OM within one week of the initial bomb, and I have no proof of "adultery" per se - just some kind of relationship. but I have not shown my hand at all with respect to how I know what I know, which does seem to irritate her if nothing else.

Cabbr

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Well, NEVER reveal the source(s) of your intel.

[CABBR]

Greek, Puppy,

So how do I act around my W right now? She is actually pleasant enough around the kids. Acts as if there is no real problem. I sometimes just look at her and am thinking: you bozo.

She will speak to me if I initiate conversation or she may occasionally ask me something innocuous. I've been civil and generally helpful as required, but not happy or lighthearted around her. I have not been engaging with her really much at all.

She went out tonigh taking her D files - I'm assuming she's working on figuring our how I can afford to buy her a different house.

So if I dig in on the custody issue and she doesn't blink. The issue will be litigated and I would think I have a pretty good shot at 50% custody.

And the decree to sell whatever real estate needs to be sold will be some time in coming. So this could be a pretty significant period of limbo in terms of living arrangements. Even if we agree in mediation, we're talking at least 6 months prior to anything happening.

After work we had an appointment with s9's primary care doctor. We had submitted survey forms regarding an ADHD evaluation. S9 may have the inattentive type. His doctor seemed pretty matter of fact based on what we described that he's got it. We're having a child psychologist evaluate him and perhaps test him for the symptomology.

The doctor said a divorce certainly complicates matters, but he spouts the same line my w does about saying we'll still be a family. This seems like moral relativism run-a-muck.

Cabbr

[CABBR]

Just trying to get a feel for how this could play out.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Greek, Puppy,

So how do I act around my W right now? She is actually pleasant enough around the kids. Acts as if there is no real problem. I sometimes just look at her and am thinking: you bozo.

She will speak to me if I initiate conversation or she may occasionally ask me something innocuous. I've been civil and generally helpful as required, but not happy or lighthearted around her. I have not been engaging with her really much at all.

Perfect -- just like that. ^

Puppy

[CABBR]

In making a decision with lasting consequences, I tend to look at issues from different angles and gather as much information before choosing a clear path. Prior to posting on the DB forum, I lurked around the MLC forum on Pathpartners.

Those guys are by and large really hard core when it comes to sticking it to the stbx. This is in the context of MLC, which may warrant that approach – 4 months into this and I don’t know enough to make that call. On PP forum it seems the default strategy is to torch the village and take no prisoners. Here the approach seems to be a little more compassionate – give tough love and demand respect but don’t be an a$$ about it.

In terms of my strategy, is it just to make sure I stand up for myself and my kids to get what I want? Or not make it easy for my W the entire way through? My stated objective on custody is 50%, so if my W is willing to concede on that issue in mediation – how do I play the rest of it?

Greek is saying give NOTHING and force the WAW to make the hard choices and be a grown up and for the LBS to stop enabling. That approach resonates with me on a lot of levels. I understand as Greek said that it forces the WAW to realize the cost to everyone involved and what the WAW is giving up. (My W will, of course, turn that around and say I’m the one causing the financial devastation by not compromising.)

Her stated objective is to not get a real job, but to continue as primary care giver. She has intentions of establishing a career a few years down the road, but views her mission in life as being a Mother to our children and doing all of the volunteer stuff that she has always engaged in with the school. She will look at me in bewilderment that I would be so selfish so as to hinder our boys’ development by placing obstacles in front of that rosy path. I don’t know how this will play with the courts.

At the same time, although I may be able to delay and obstruct the process to a certain degree by litigating – I can’t stop it completely. It will ultimately go forward. My L is on vacation until 8/10, so I’ll get a better feel for the legal aspects at that time.

The situation with my s9 complicates things too. I have to deal with my W on that issue. I’m not convinced that medication is the answer for him and want to make sure we are not hasty in that decision. I think there is an awful lot of room for growth and improvement in my son with more consistent parenting, but I see there are times when he struggles.

My W’s whole demeanor around me is one of benign indifference. There is no vestige of a marital relationship. She is civil and even pleasant at times when we are around the kids, but she has joined an internet dating site and outwardly manifests an attitude of the friendly co-parent – as if that’s a normative state. She presented the issue of our getting divorced to the pediatrician as just another issue to address. For me it’s pretty weird. I guess I’m having a tough time with detachment today.

One thing that burns me up, is that my W clearly does not value my role as a parent as being remotely equal to hers. When I was considering taking a job in an adjoining state and did not because I thought my kids would need me more than ever, her attitude was like – why? I’d be there for them. Totally dismissive of my relationship with them.

Cabbr

[davidswife]

Her stated objective is to not get a real job, but to continue as primary care giver.

Cabbr

Excuse me, primary caretaker is a "real job". Not to hi-jack, but please, I've raised/am raising four children, fifteen years of staying home -- it's a "real job".

Stacy

[mac-ct]

Hi Cabbr,

Reading the last post of yours I see a few things.

1. You've already answered your own questions
2. You're taking advice and it's sinking in. Yay Greek. Yay Puppy.

is it just to make sure I stand up for myself and my kids to get what I want?

And your answer would be?

Don't forget that at this time it is all about you. My W actually threw that in my face a few times. And you know what? Now it is all about me. If I'm not the very best I can be then what am I worth?

Just thought - that would have sounded SO conceited not so long ago. I now know that in the sitch I'm in and my W is in it's definitely not conceit.

Cabbr - please don't read to much into how your W relates to you at the moment. She, like my W isn't in the real world. It is for our significant others, but it's clouded in fog.

You carry on doing what you are doing.

Like Puppy said....

Perfect -- just like that. ^

It REALLY bugs them.

Chin up (apologies for talking poo)

Mac

[davidswife]

Her stated objective is to not get a real job, but to continue as primary care giver. She has intentions of establishing a career a few years down the road, but views her mission in life as being a Mother to our children and doing all of the volunteer stuff that she has always engaged in with the school. She will look at me in bewilderment that I would be so selfish so as to hinder our boys’ development by placing obstacles in front of that rosy path. I don’t know how this will play with the courts.
Cabbr

Well, too bad her "mission in life as being a Mother" might conflict with the ugly financial reality of her decision to walk away from her family.

Stacy

[iwantittowork]

Couple comments for you Cabbr, from my perspective:

"Her stated objective is to not get a real job, but to continue as primary care giver. She has intentions of establishing a career a few years down the road, but views her mission in life as being a Mother to our children and doing all of the volunteer stuff that she has always engaged in with the school. She will look at me in bewilderment that I would be so selfish so as to hinder our boys’ development by placing obstacles in front of that rosy path. I don’t know how this will play with the courts."

My W has the same rosy picture for herself, wants to be an artist, go back to school, take care of our d8, take up rock climbing, diving, etc, etc.

I first thought the same way you did, but in speaking with both my L and the mediator, I have much better picture. First, she probably will think your putting obstacles in her path, but they are not obstacles from my point of view anymore. We need to do what's best for our kids and us, and that does not include her financial stability to go play, etc. outside of what our appointed financial obligations are. My L also said, judges for the most part would not go for that, where the W gets to play while the exH gets to pay for it. If she can support herself and do all those things then great! Have at it, but for her to expect you to support her financially to do so, is pure entitlement mindset on her part. My L told me most judges now a days will tell her to go get a job. (Not sure if that's truly the case, but I have to believe my L knows a bit more about this than I do..)

Our mediator pointed that out to my W when she viciously asked him who would pay for our d8's private school if the child support was not enough to support my W after divorce and the tuition? He politely told her that she may have to decide on public school then, and she was fuming mad.

My W’s whole demeanor around me is one of benign indifference. There is no vestige of a marital relationship. She is civil and even pleasant at times when we are around the kids, but she has joined an internet dating site and outwardly manifests an attitude of the friendly co-parent – as if that’s a normative state. She presented the issue of our getting divorced to the pediatrician as just another issue to address. For me it’s pretty weird. I guess I’m having a tough time with detachment today.

This is the same in my Sitch, and I have come to determine that she is completely detached from the MR and me, but without the Loving part of the detachment. We need to also get close to this point, but with the loving aspect still there. Also what makes it harder on us until we get to that point, as we still see everything in the sitch as "Us" When she sees it as "I"

One thing that burns me up, is that my W clearly does not value my role as a parent as being remotely equal to hers. When I was considering taking a job in an adjoining state and did not because I thought my kids would need me more than ever, her attitude was like – why? I’d be there for them. Totally dismissive of my relationship with them.

I also see this in my sitch. I believe this is BECAUSE they have lost respect for us, as a person, partner and a parent, and part of why they lost there 'love' for us.

Another reason why we need to make a stand for what WE want, and get that respect back for ourselves. N.U.T.S and No More MR. Nice guy are good places to start looking to yourself to get that back..

[CABBR]

Her stated objective is to not get a real job, but to continue as primary care giver.

Cabbr

Excuse me, primary caretaker is a "real job". Not to hi-jack, but please, I've raised/am raising four children, fifteen years of staying home -- it's a "real job".

Stacy

Stacy,

That came out the wrong way. I absolutely value my W's role as a Mother and it's probably the hardest job on earth. Not the least of which is because there is so little down time. My W wants a D and to pursue other relationships and sports interests while maintaining her role as caregiver. She had a very successful career prior to children, so what I'm saying is that she basically wants everything to remain the same except to have me removed from the equation. I think the D is game changer in that regard.

Cabbr

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Nice stick-save.

[Greek]

News flash for Mrs. CABBR ~~~
while her role as SAHM is PRICELESS to her children and society, SINGLE MOTHERS WORK (mostly) and that is part of the reality she must face. Big Girl Panties. Put 'em on.

Greek

[CABBR]

Her stated objective is to not get a real job, but to continue as primary care giver.

Cabbr

Excuse me, primary caretaker is a "real job". Not to hi-jack, but please, I've raised/am raising four children, fifteen years of staying home -- it's a "real job".

Stacy

Stacy,

I had previously posted that my W worked PT as a ski instructor and used to work at one of the chain bookstores. That's more what I was referring to as not a real job.

Cabbr

[Greek]

CABBR ~
I understood what you meant. I was a SAHM for 15 years and I homeschooled, too, so I know that being home to raise children is really hard work, very valuable, and wouldn't have traded it. Perhaps what you meant by 'real job' is a real job pays money. I get that. And if Mrs. C wants to be a real single person who also has children to support, she will have to get herself one of those real paying jobs.

The women I observe who are single, stay at home moms are:

~ on welfare OR
~ took their H to the cleaners in a D b/c the H had an A (and guilt is the gift that keeps on giving) OR
~ took their H to the cleaners in a D b/c the H LET THEM (CABBR isn't going to do this) OR
~ moved in or near their parents for help OR
~ are on Real Housewives of NJ

Greek

[Greek]

And one more thing, CABBR...

don't you have plans to meet friends out for dinner and drinks tonight? I think you do.

Greek

[CABBR]

Thanks Mac-ct,

Quote:
is it just to make sure I stand up for myself and my kids to get what I want?


And your answer would be?

Absolutely yes.

But that's only half the question. The other half is what do you do with the rest of it? And the answer is you stand up and fight for yourself and your kids.

I'm hearing an awful lot of things from different people about not generating too much ill will with the person you will be co-parenting with for the rest of your life and of course minimizing the financial ruin. My W's favorite book is how to lose your spouse but not your shirt in a D. Even one of the lawyers I talked with initially was like well you might as well make it as painless as possible and face the inevitable distribution of assets, etc. and I'm thinking no, I won't hiring you. Many people are very focused on mitigating the financial aspect.

Cabbr

[mulesqb]

cabbr - New to your thread - just getting caught up. A couple of things: Keep a journal. Record every single thing she does that can be seen as neglectful or not in the best interest of the children. Especially when you are there to pick up the pieces.

Do not, and I repeat do not reveal an intentions you have legally. That is between you and your lawyer. Unfortunately your W is now the opposition. She needs to know nothing about what you are doing. When it comes to the kids and custody - shoot high. I mean full custody and make it known you are going to fight for them with money you don't have if necessary.

When it comes to interaction with her - just be relaxed and answer questions and keep it to the kids if possible. Don't ever, ever get baited by her.

Don't worry about proof of her adultery. Your journal showing her negligence is better anyway. If you have been journaling here all along - print it out and rewrite using dates. I did just that and mine was over 20 pages. When my STBX found out I did that and saw it, I'm sure it had a lot to do with her entire gameplan from that point forward. The funny thing was I believe to this day my STBX's lawyer was disgusted when she saw it and that helped me tremendously also.

Always take the high road. If not for yourself, for the kids. Greek will vouch for me - I went through some pretty incredible stuff right in front of my kids. Show them how to handle adversity. Show them what integrity is. Show them what honor is. They are your priority from here on in. Make that your mindset., It helps you drop the rope further. Every time you feel baited, repeat Strength and Honor to yourself. Your kids will never forget it.

Strength and Honor.

Mules

[Greek]

Good advice from Mules.

Cheers ~~~

[CABBR]

IWITW,

Thanks for your valuable insights.

My W has the same rosy picture for herself, wants to be an artist, go back to school, take care of our d8, take up rock climbing, diving, etc, etc.

I first thought the same way you did, but in speaking with both my L and the mediator, I have much better picture. First, she probably will think your putting obstacles in her path, but they are not obstacles from my point of view anymore. We need to do what's best for our kids and us, and that does not include her financial stability to go play, etc. outside of what our appointed financial obligations are. My L also said, judges for the most part would not go for that, where the W gets to play while the exH gets to pay for it. If she can support herself and do all those things then great! Have at it, but for her to expect you to support her financially to do so, is pure entitlement mindset on her part. My L told me most judges now a days will tell her to go get a job. (Not sure if that's truly the case, but I have to believe my L knows a bit more about this than I do..)

Same here. My W wants to be able to pursue her PT ski instructor "career" unimpeded. This was on of the things that caused me heartburn in the M. The weekends were always lost to her schedule in the Winter and I wanted us to do some things as a family. She also talks about going back to school for something completley different. In fact,is hopeful that it can cement an anchor in the ground, so that if I ever do HAVE to take a job somewhere else that I can't take the kids with me or force her to uproot. It is all about her lifstyle.

[CABBR]

cabbr - New to your thread - just getting caught up. A couple of things: Keep a journal. Record every single thing she does that can be seen as neglectful or not in the best interest of the children. Especially when you are there to pick up the pieces.

Do not, and I repeat do not reveal an intentions you have legally. That is between you and your lawyer. Unfortunately your W is now the opposition. She needs to know nothing about what you are doing. When it comes to the kids and custody - shoot high. I mean full custody and make it known you are going to fight for them with money you don't have if necessary.

When it comes to interaction with her - just be relaxed and answer questions and keep it to the kids if possible. Don't ever, ever get baited by her.

Don't worry about proof of her adultery. Your journal showing her negligence is better anyway. If you have been journaling here all along - print it out and rewrite using dates. I did just that and mine was over 20 pages. When my STBX found out I did that and saw it, I'm sure it had a lot to do with her entire gameplan from that point forward. The funny thing was I believe to this day my STBX's lawyer was disgusted when she saw it and that helped me tremendously also.

Always take the high road. If not for yourself, for the kids. Greek will vouch for me - I went through some pretty incredible stuff right in front of my kids. Show them how to handle adversity. Show them what integrity is. Show them what honor is. They are your priority from here on in. Make that your mindset., It helps you drop the rope further. Every time you feel baited, repeat Strength and Honor to yourself. Your kids will never forget it.

Strength and Honor.

Mules

Mules,

Thanks. I've actually been repeating "strength and honor" to myself a lot lately. I think I first saw it on Coach's posts. It resonates.

I have not let her bait me, but it's not as if she is trying to do that. Mostly, we don't speak once the kids go to bed. I've been sullen at times - like just around the EA detonation, but other than that I've had a very even keel with my kids and her.

As far as a journal. Oh yeah. I've got about 175 pages so far - around 50 per month since April. It's amazing how much stuff you forget.

In general, my W is a good and loving Mother, but isn't good at enforcing consequences for bad behavior. There are a few minor things in respect to the kids where her judgment could be questioned, but no smoking gun stuff by any means. About the most you could say is that my older s9 is constantly questioning where she is going and why she doesn't want to do stuff with us together.

In so far as ugliness at home or front of the kids - not happening at all.

I'm careful not to divulge much of anything on legal strategy.

Thanks again for checking in.

Cabbr

[mulesqb]

cabbr - Stop worrying about what she wants. What do you want? How do you foresee this playing out so that you are satisfied? If your W has worked in the past, let your L know. They can prove that she is capable of working and that can help you in your case. And yes, they will tell her to get a job - and that is a benefit to you.

Legal fees are unavoidable. I can't tell you how bad mine have gotten. But so what, I have my kids. You can't put a price on that. If your W really has these grand visions of her life at some point she may see the kids as in the way of them. You want to make sure you have enough custody to shield them from that. And if she sees how serious you are about custody it may scare her a bit.

Strength and Honor.

Mules

[mulesqb]

Mules,

Thanks. I've actually been repeating "strength and honor" to myself a lot lately. I think I first saw it on Coach's posts. It resonates.

I have not let her bait me, but it's not as if she is trying to do that. Mostly, we don't speak once the kids go to bed. I've been sullen at times - like just around the EA detonation, but other than that I've had a very even keel with my kids and her.

As far as a journal. Oh yeah. I've got about 175 pages so far - around 50 per month since April. It's amazing how much stuff you forget.

In general, my W is a good and loving Mother, but isn't good at enforcing consequences for bad behavior. There are a few minor things in respect to the kids where her judgment could be questioned, but no smoking gun stuff by any means. About the most you could say is that my older s9 is constantly questioning where she is going and why she doesn't want to do stuff with us together.

In so far as ugliness at home or front of the kids - not happening at all.

I'm careful not to divulge much of anything on legal strategy.

Thanks again for checking in.

Cabbr

Hey Cabbr - Unfortunately, once the legal process starts, that's when the baiting starts to become profound. Don't ever give her the chance to call the cops on you. If she gets you mad - find a way to get past it and get out of the room. MY STBX once closed our bedroom door and baited me to try and push past her to get it opened. I knew she had been hanging with a divorced friend who called the cops 7x on her ex. So I went into the closet, got my ipod and then went into our bathroom and locked the door. I ended up staying there for 45 minutes and took a shower. When I came out she was laying on our bed half asleep, so I then left the room. Sorry I am even bringing this stuff up. I would much rather discuss DB techniques and support you that way. It's just that some of what you wrote was very familiar.

And I think the more the process goes, the more bizarre she will get. My STBX parents are convinced that my STBX would take a way out of this if she could, but she is so stubborn and so far into it, she doesn't know what to do or how to do it.

Just keep your eyes and ears open and love your kids. I know you love your W so try to remember that and understand that for whatever reason, she needs to go through this. And she will and you will detach. And she will either figure things out or she won't. But you will be prepared for anything and you will be a better person from what you have learned.

Strength and Honor.

Mules

[Steve McQueen]

i just wanted to comment on something mules said above, as i have been in this predicament, and it rots. I dont know everything about your situation but if there is an issue:

dont let yourself get baited into any heated argument and if they start acting really insane sit yourself next to your kids.
remember you dont have to talk and you can always walk away. 'play nice is the sandbox' is not always easy for the crazies sometimes you have to choose not to play or make sure there are others around you.

a couple months ago my wife decided to punch the living cxrap out of me while i was sleeping for what i believe was my son was coming to me when he was upset (or just wanted to play baseball with his dad????? idk) I had to file a police report and DIR, and explain the whole past situation to them. what the cops said to me was to be careful it is not uncommon that when a man has to get to this point that the wife is calling them constantly with similar complaints that they are required to act on. so true. my wife has tried to bait me so many times. stands in my way. hangs out in the doorway i need to go through, stares at me mumbling profanities. i sometimes think she is waiting for me to walk into her so she can take a dive down the stairs. i find myself locking the door and sitting next to my kids watching really dumb tv shows alot since then.

my wife's sister pulled some serious $hit on her husband. phoney assault charges, would start arguments then call the cops, if he was out on a friday night she even called the cops to report him drunk driving no matter what he was doing.

not to scare you. idk whats going on at your house, but i think when one starts ruining the fantasy of entitlement the craziness gets even crazier.

Steve

[Kittyfish]

These WW's on here kill me- and hell I was one at one time!

I would have never expected my exh to give me a divorce and support me financially at the same time!!

Big Girl Panties! Duh, if you can't afford to get a divorce and live on your own you're not entitled to a divorce! No in house separations, nada- and forget carrying on an affair. If you cannot afford to divorce under your own power then put your big girl panties on and deal with working on your marriage!

I gave him the house, the cars, most of the furnishings and I only asked for childcare expenses- not child support. If I was the one who wanted a divorce why should I be able to clean him out? My attorney wanted me to go for retirement and such because of the length of our marriage and I said no!

I could support myself financially- although he made three times what I make. I didn't ask him to cover a dang thing for me and wouldn't have- too much pride for that.

If they want to live like they lived before then they need to take a second or third job to have that lifestyle. What's fair for the kids is all they should get.

Sorry, rant over!

[CABBR]

And one more thing, CABBR...

don't you have plans to meet friends out for dinner and drinks tonight? I think you do.

Greek

Thank you Greek. You are a gem. Just now I had to go to my s9's rocket launch, so I'm a little delayed in responding.

Last night I had an opportunity to go out with some people from work. It sounded like a nice time, but I had to meet with my s9's pediatrician. I will try to get out some in the next few weeks. I've been really focusing on my sons, which is something my L advised as well.

Next week I am taking my boys to a lake house in NY for a couple of days with friends that have two boys the same ages and then heading to Long Island to go to the ocean.

Cabbr

[CABBR]

cabbr - Stop worrying about what she wants. What do you want? How do you foresee this playing out so that you are satisfied? If your W has worked in the past, let your L know. They can prove that she is capable of working and that can help you in your case. And yes, they will tell her to get a job - and that is a benefit to you.

Legal fees are unavoidable. I can't tell you how bad mine have gotten. But so what, I have my kids. You can't put a price on that. If your W really has these grand visions of her life at some point she may see the kids as in the way of them. You want to make sure you have enough custody to shield them from that. And if she sees how serious you are about custody it may scare her a bit.

Strength and Honor.

Mules

Mules,

My W had a very successful career prior to kids, but has not worked in about 10 years. My L indicated the same thing, i.e. she can and should work.

Assuming this goes where it appears to be headed, I would like to have at least 50% legal and physical custody and retain the house. The only question with custody is that since I work full time, my time is not as flexible as a SAHM. The house may be a long shot, but obviously the kids are what's most important. Beyond that not having to pay support to her for more than a few years would be preferable. At this point, I really haven't flushed these issues out in any depth with my L. Things have been moving fast lately. I'm just coming up on 4 months post bomb.

She definitely wants her independence from me, but my W is pretty responsible as a Mother. She is certainly making time for herself to do things and sharing baby sitting with friends to enable her to do things.

[CABBR]

Mules,

Thanks. I've actually been repeating "strength and honor" to myself a lot lately. I think I first saw it on Coach's posts. It resonates.

I have not let her bait me, but it's not as if she is trying to do that. Mostly, we don't speak once the kids go to bed. I've been sullen at times - like just around the EA detonation, but other than that I've had a very even keel with my kids and her.

As far as a journal. Oh yeah. I've got about 175 pages so far - around 50 per month since April. It's amazing how much stuff you forget.

In general, my W is a good and loving Mother, but isn't good at enforcing consequences for bad behavior. There are a few minor things in respect to the kids where her judgment could be questioned, but no smoking gun stuff by any means. About the most you could say is that my older s9 is constantly questioning where she is going and why she doesn't want to do stuff with us together.

In so far as ugliness at home or front of the kids - not happening at all.

I'm careful not to divulge much of anything on legal strategy.

Thanks again for checking in.

Cabbr

Hey Cabbr - Unfortunately, once the legal process starts, that's when the baiting starts to become profound. Don't ever give her the chance to call the cops on you. If she gets you mad - find a way to get past it and get out of the room. MY STBX once closed our bedroom door and baited me to try and push past her to get it opened. I knew she had been hanging with a divorced friend who called the cops 7x on her ex. So I went into the closet, got my ipod and then went into our bathroom and locked the door. I ended up staying there for 45 minutes and took a shower. When I came out she was laying on our bed half asleep, so I then left the room. Sorry I am even bringing this stuff up. I would much rather discuss DB techniques and support you that way. It's just that some of what you wrote was very familiar.

And I think the more the process goes, the more bizarre she will get. My STBX parents are convinced that my STBX would take a way out of this if she could, but she is so stubborn and so far into it, she doesn't know what to do or how to do it.

Just keep your eyes and ears open and love your kids. I know you love your W so try to remember that and understand that for whatever reason, she needs to go through this. And she will and you will detach. And she will either figure things out or she won't. But you will be prepared for anything and you will be a better person from what you have learned.

Strength and Honor.

Mules

Thanks Mules.

I suppose anything is possible. But my W has never been one to explode about anything or bait me into a fight. She tends to avoid any type of conflict. She has absolutely no basis for any type of abuse and I don't intend to create one.

We really have little to no interaction once the kids are in bed. She either leaves the house to hang out with her friends or goes in the basement (where she sleeps). When I do speak with her she is making a concerted effort to be civil.

Cabbr

[CABBR]

i just wanted to comment on something mules said above, as i have been in this predicament, and it rots. I dont know everything about your situation but if there is an issue:

dont let yourself get baited into any heated argument and if they start acting really insane sit yourself next to your kids.
remember you dont have to talk and you can always walk away. 'play nice is the sandbox' is not always easy for the crazies sometimes you have to choose not to play or make sure there are others around you.

a couple months ago my wife decided to punch the living cxrap out of me while i was sleeping for what i believe was my son was coming to me when he was upset (or just wanted to play baseball with his dad????? idk) I had to file a police report and DIR, and explain the whole past situation to them. what the cops said to me was to be careful it is not uncommon that when a man has to get to this point that the wife is calling them constantly with similar complaints that they are required to act on. so true. my wife has tried to bait me so many times. stands in my way. hangs out in the doorway i need to go through, stares at me mumbling profanities. i sometimes think she is waiting for me to walk into her so she can take a dive down the stairs. i find myself locking the door and sitting next to my kids watching really dumb tv shows alot since then.

my wife's sister pulled some serious $hit on her husband. phoney assault charges, would start arguments then call the cops, if he was out on a friday night she even called the cops to report him drunk driving no matter what he was doing.

not to scare you. idk whats going on at your house, but i think when one starts ruining the fantasy of entitlement the craziness gets even crazier.

Steve

Steve,

Aside from losing her mind when I exposed the EA. My W has not exhibited anything like what you describe and she is smart not to. Although her anger over the exposure was to me really odd. Here I am trying to remove the threat of OM from our marriage and she's accusing me of ruining someone else's life. In that sense the entitlement beast was in full bloom.

Cabbr

[mulesqb]

i just wanted to comment on something mules said above, as i have been in this predicament, and it rots. I dont know everything about your situation but if there is an issue:

dont let yourself get baited into any heated argument and if they start acting really insane sit yourself next to your kids.
remember you dont have to talk and you can always walk away. 'play nice is the sandbox' is not always easy for the crazies sometimes you have to choose not to play or make sure there are others around you.

a couple months ago my wife decided to punch the living cxrap out of me while i was sleeping for what i believe was my son was coming to me when he was upset (or just wanted to play baseball with his dad????? idk) I had to file a police report and DIR, and explain the whole past situation to them. what the cops said to me was to be careful it is not uncommon that when a man has to get to this point that the wife is calling them constantly with similar complaints that they are required to act on. so true. my wife has tried to bait me so many times. stands in my way. hangs out in the doorway i need to go through, stares at me mumbling profanities. i sometimes think she is waiting for me to walk into her so she can take a dive down the stairs. i find myself locking the door and sitting next to my kids watching really dumb tv shows alot since then.

my wife's sister pulled some serious $hit on her husband. phoney assault charges, would start arguments then call the cops, if he was out on a friday night she even called the cops to report him drunk driving no matter what he was doing.

not to scare you. idk whats going on at your house, but i think when one starts ruining the fantasy of entitlement the craziness gets even crazier.

Steve

Steve - sorry to hear that. It gets bizarre. The problem is these stories get out and people talk to each other and tell each other what worked for them. I am aware of lawyers that have instructed female clients to do just what you describe above. it's sick. My question is than who is looking out for the children?? I s baiting your spouse into something and faking it, good for the children?? Some of this stuff is just insane and sickening.

Strength and Honor, bro. Will pray for you.

Mules

[mulesqb]

Mules,

Thanks. I've actually been repeating "strength and honor" to myself a lot lately. I think I first saw it on Coach's posts. It resonates.

I have not let her bait me, but it's not as if she is trying to do that. Mostly, we don't speak once the kids go to bed. I've been sullen at times - like just around the EA detonation, but other than that I've had a very even keel with my kids and her.

As far as a journal. Oh yeah. I've got about 175 pages so far - around 50 per month since April. It's amazing how much stuff you forget.

In general, my W is a good and loving Mother, but isn't good at enforcing consequences for bad behavior. There are a few minor things in respect to the kids where her judgment could be questioned, but no smoking gun stuff by any means. About the most you could say is that my older s9 is constantly questioning where she is going and why she doesn't want to do stuff with us together.

In so far as ugliness at home or front of the kids - not happening at all.

I'm careful not to divulge much of anything on legal strategy.

Thanks again for checking in.

Cabbr

Hey Cabbr - Unfortunately, once the legal process starts, that's when the baiting starts to become profound. Don't ever give her the chance to call the cops on you. If she gets you mad - find a way to get past it and get out of the room. MY STBX once closed our bedroom door and baited me to try and push past her to get it opened. I knew she had been hanging with a divorced friend who called the cops 7x on her ex. So I went into the closet, got my ipod and then went into our bathroom and locked the door. I ended up staying there for 45 minutes and took a shower. When I came out she was laying on our bed half asleep, so I then left the room. Sorry I am even bringing this stuff up. I would much rather discuss DB techniques and support you that way. It's just that some of what you wrote was very familiar.

And I think the more the process goes, the more bizarre she will get. My STBX parents are convinced that my STBX would take a way out of this if she could, but she is so stubborn and so far into it, she doesn't know what to do or how to do it.

Just keep your eyes and ears open and love your kids. I know you love your W so try to remember that and understand that for whatever reason, she needs to go through this. And she will and you will detach. And she will either figure things out or she won't. But you will be prepared for anything and you will be a better person from what you have learned.

Strength and Honor.

Mules

Thanks Mules.

I suppose anything is possible. But my W has never been one to explode about anything or bait me into a fight. She tends to avoid any type of conflict. She has absolutely no basis for any type of abuse and I don't intend to create one.

We really have little to no interaction once the kids are in bed. She either leaves the house to hang out with her friends or goes in the basement (where she sleeps). When I do speak with her she is making a concerted effort to be civil.

Cabbr

Cabbr - Are any of her friends divorced that she in hanging with?? Have any of them had what they consider very successful settlements? I'm really sorry to bring all this up. I just want you to be aware of what could happen so if it does come up, you are prepared and don't fall for anything. This process can turn good people into something else. And again, I'm sorry - I really would rather you discuss DBing with everyone here, but since you are at this point, I just wanted you to be prepared.

Strength and Honor.

Mules

[mulesqb]

My W had a very successful career prior to kids, but has not worked in about 10 years. My L indicated the same thing, i.e. she can and should work.

Assuming this goes where it appears to be headed, I would like to have at least 50% legal and physical custody and retain the house. The only question with custody is that since I work full time, my time is not as flexible as a SAHM. The house may be a long shot, but obviously the kids are what's most important. Beyond that not having to pay support to her for more than a few years would be preferable. At this point, I really haven't flushed these issues out in any depth with my L. Things have been moving fast lately. I'm just coming up on 4 months post bomb.

She definitely wants her independence from me, but my W is pretty responsible as a Mother. She is certainly making time for herself to do things and sharing baby sitting with friends to enable her to do things.

This is good for you. But if you want 50%, ask for a lot more.

She wants her independence now. We'll see how that works out for her in the long run. Just keep being the good man you are and set an example for your kids. Everything else will fall into place.

Mules

[mulesqb]

Thanks Mules.

I suppose anything is possible. But my W has never been one to explode about anything or bait me into a fight. She tends to avoid any type of conflict. She has absolutely no basis for any type of abuse and I don't intend to create one.

We really have little to no interaction once the kids are in bed. She either leaves the house to hang out with her friends or goes in the basement (where she sleeps). When I do speak with her she is making a concerted effort to be civil.

Cabbr

Cabbr - I could have written your post last year. She did try and fortunately I was warned. I hope your W remains civil and keeps a level head. That can only be a positive for you.

[Steve McQueen]

cab i threw that out not because it was your situation but because i think we (men and women) here sharing the same awful situations need to stick together and learn from eachother. someone might read this someday and think man that happened to me, or wait my spouse exhibits that same behavior, i am not alone.

who has the kids during the day, she is with them. but to be honest, i have a web cam set up in the house and my daughter, sister and I have those walkie talkie cell phones. panic button. its embrassing as hell when you have to tell work what is going on and that if you run out the door its not because you just snapped your wife did.

i guess you just have to realize that this does not last forever and their is a light at the end of the tunnell. you just dont when you will get there or whats on the other end. that maybe why we stay in limbo so long. plus is is not like that 24/7. the yo-yo analogy fits perfect. i am still trying to figure out the pattern and what the tiggers are.

enough about me. take care of yourself and stay out of legal discussions if you cant agree 100%. not worth the headache listening to it when you will see something different on paper later.

[CABBR]

Thanks Steve. You're right some of these situations are so similar it's scary and people glean a lot from reading other peoples' posts. I am very grateful for the time, effort and thoughtfulness by all who have responded. This site is a godsend.

Cabbr

[CABBR]

These WW's on here kill me- and hell I was one at one time!

I would have never expected my exh to give me a divorce and support me financially at the same time!!

Big Girl Panties! Duh, if you can't afford to get a divorce and live on your own you're not entitled to a divorce! No in house separations, nada- and forget carrying on an affair. If you cannot afford to divorce under your own power then put your big girl panties on and deal with working on your marriage!

I gave him the house, the cars, most of the furnishings and I only asked for childcare expenses- not child support. If I was the one who wanted a divorce why should I be able to clean him out? My attorney wanted me to go for retirement and such because of the length of our marriage and I said no!

I could support myself financially- although he made three times what I make. I didn't ask him to cover a dang thing for me and wouldn't have- too much pride for that.

If they want to live like they lived before then they need to take a second or third job to have that lifestyle. What's fair for the kids is all they should get.

Sorry, rant over!

Thanks KF. The really funny thing is that my W is a hard worker and typically takes much pride in being independent and self sufficient. She has always had a lot of drive and energy. I can't read her mind, but I believe she thinks her responsibility as a Mother trumps all of that.

Cabbr

[Kittyfish]

She wants to be able to have fun while you pay the bills!

[CABBR]

Cabbr - Are any of her friends divorced that she in hanging with?? Have any of them had what they consider very successful settlements? I'm really sorry to bring all this up. I just want you to be aware of what could happen so if it does come up, you are prepared and don't fall for anything. This process can turn good people into something else. And again, I'm sorry - I really would rather you discuss DBing with everyone here, but since you are at this point, I just wanted you to be prepared.

Strength and Honor.

Mules[/quote]

Mules,

Sorry I missed this one yeaterday. There is only one friend that I know of going through a D. I really don't know what kind of support she is getting or is likely to get. I know this friend doesn't have much money.

Virtually all of my W's other friends are married women she knows from our kids' school and is not really talking about our situation with them for the time being.

Cabbr

[CABBR]

Mules,

One question: your signature indicates you are in limbo but you said tht you "have your kids." Is this because nothing is happening with a D? Just curious how this is working.

Cabbr

[CABBR]

Today we spent time as a family. Went to a marine aquarium near the waterfront where we live. (in separate cars.)My s9 had lost it on the phone last night with my W. She had said that she would be home for dinner and called to say she would have dinner with her friend and would therefore miss bed time. S9 wouldn't even talk to her and was really irate.

Today he was very affectionate toward both of us and very happy most of the day. It didn't even occur to my W that s9 was happy because he had both parents together for the day.

I made apoint of telling her tonight that whether she wants to admit it or not that she is out a lot and s9 notices and is upset and concerned. He talks about it all the time.

She says that her being out is by design and that he'll have to get used to it. I'm like I just wanted you to know and ended the conversation.

Cabbr

[mulesqb]

Mules,

One question: your signature indicates you are in limbo but you said tht you "have your kids." Is this because nothing is happening with a D? Just curious how this is working.

Cabbr

Hey cabbr - Yeah I need to change that. SYBX moved out back in Feb. She actually is living with my neighbor's father and also tries to hide that she is staying with my neighbor. It's sick as my kids constantly see her next door.

I did get full custody of the boys back in March. The only thing left to be worked out in our divorce is financial. We hope to have it done soon. My lawyer tells me we will be divorced within a month or two.

Strength and Honor.

Mules

[iwantittowork]

Cabbr

I made apoint of telling her tonight that whether she wants to admit it or not that she is out a lot and s9 notices and is upset and concerned. He talks about it all the time.

I understand what you were aiming for here, but I believe you took too confrontational and approach given your sitch. I am not clear on what the correct way would be, but the way you put it here, puts her on defense immediately.

Not much will happen positive after that, she'll be defending herself to you, and then it becomes abuot you and her, rather than about your S9..

Just a thought..

[CABBR]

Cabbr

I made apoint of telling her tonight that whether she wants to admit it or not that she is out a lot and s9 notices and is upset and concerned. He talks about it all the time.

I understand what you were aiming for here, but I believe you took too confrontational and approach given your sitch. I am not clear on what the correct way would be, but the way you put it here, puts her on defense immediately.

Not much will happen positive after that, she'll be defending herself to you, and then it becomes abuot you and her, rather than about your S9..

Just a thought..

IWITW,

Thanks. I'm sure you're right. She says that "He'll have to get used to it." That really turned my stomach. I guess I have to just be the best Dad I can be and suck up those kind of remarks. It astounds me that she can be so self absorbed.

The conversation was about how to talk to my son about going to see a counselor today, which she wanted me to handle. She was saying that he seemed happy the last few days and I reminded her of the outburst on the phone with her the day before where he wouldn't talk to her. She had played down her doing things with friends as something akin to him having playdates. And that she does things with him all the time. She was dismissive of the idea that she was not home that much.

I really don't know how to act around her - other than to be civil and generally helpful as one would be to a stranger. Talking to our son as if nothing is wrong when he KNOWS something is clearly not right seems insulting to s9.

I'm trying to be with my boys a much as possible, but I guess I need to get out a bit.

Cabbr

[iwantittowork]

Thanks. I'm sure you're right. She says that "He'll have to get used to it." That really turned my stomach. I guess I have to just be the best Dad I can be and suck up those kind of remarks. It astounds me that she can be so self absorbed.

Ah, yes, I have heard the same things, felt the same way as you, and been more than astounded at times as well. I bet many here can say the same. This is where how you react becomes key, what she says and does may not seem rational to you, but to her they do. Reacting negatively to them doesn't get us anywhere, that I have learned all too well already myself.

The conversation was about how to talk to my son about going to see a counselor today, which she wanted me to handle.

Is the implication here that your W doesn't think s9 needs to see counselor, or do you both agree he needs to see counselor? I don't think it should be your responsibility to be the only one to talk with him about it. You can state that to your W in a non confrontational, honest way. If she still doesn't agree, then you'll have to decide how to handle that best, and what's best for you and your s9.

I'm trying to be with my boys a much as possible, but I guess I need to get out a bit.

Yes! What is cabbr doing for cabbr lately? What GAL have you done? Gone out with a friend for dinner? Taking up sky diving? Whatever it is Cabbr wants to do for himself needs to be on your game plan. This is huge not just for you, but for you s9 as well.

Ultimately you need to have a strong PMA, and that includes doing things for you that help build that up. THAT is what your s9 will be seeing and night or two out for Cabbr will not affect anything in your family negatively.

[CABBR]

IWITW,

Yes, I have to work on being a little more detached from statements like that. It's hard because we're not just talking about me - it's my son. She can give up on me, but I'm not letting her quit on s9.

We both agreed on the counseling, which was largely in the context of a potential ADHD diagnosis. He exhibits anger and frustration easily sometimes too, but this is likely, in part, to the situation at home. I was OK with talking to my son about it, which I did this morning.

I am very reluctant to medicate my son because he has been parented so inconsistently, but I don't think it's a bad thing for him to see a counselor. S9 is a bright kid, yet struggles in some areas like organization and staying on task. I want us to make a more concerted effort to work with him in those areas.

I've finally got some plans this week to do some stuff, which should be fun.

Cabbr

[CABBR]

Checking in with PDT, Greek, Robx, IWITW, MAC-CT, Mules and GIMA,

I have not been active here for about a month as things have been pretty much status quo. I've taken a couple of trips with the kids that were fun, been busy with work and spent time with some good friends.

Tomorrow I have to appear in court on a motion for temporary relief, wherein my W is asking for support, possession of the marital home and an interim determination of parental rights and responsibilities. She's not really wanting for much. although I stopped contributing to the saucy wardrobe fund and don't pay for her cell phone.

She's taking a couple of on-line courses to help launch a new career and expected me to pay for it, so I politely declined.

I don't think she has a prayer wrt to the house in the near term, but I'll probably be required to provide money over and above the needs of the family. I'm still camped at 50% on custody and she is adamant about a 4/3 split where I have s9 and s6 most of every weekend. So that will prove interesting.

After returning home from a trip with my boys over labor day w-e, they were both upset that W wasn't home - she was working. S6 was hysterical. It upset me too because they are hurting and I wanted W to know that.

So I told her the following day and also mentioned how selfish I thought she was being and thinking only of herself. This was probably a mistake for several reasons - mostly because I allowed my emotions to get the better of me -I didn't lose my mind but was agitated. Also because it shows that I'm not doing such a hot job of detaching sometimes. For me though it was more about the loss my kids are feeling and that really burns me. Lastly because it's unproductive.

She reiterated the new-age bat$h!t logic that the kids will be fine. I said yeah, you keep saying that and maybe you'll believe it.

A few weeks back, I learned W joined an online dating site, so I joined and observed her profile without making any contact. Neither of us had pix posted. She emails my alter ego and suggests that I reconsider as we have a lot in common. So I establish a dialogue with her but after a week or so she suddenly terminates her membership. Too funny but equally pathetic.

Cabbr

[givingitmyall]

Hey cabbr.

Sounds like you are holding up, but I agree with you that you still feel too much to be detached. I can completely understand getting angered over the hurt to the kids.

Still, you have to be the bigger person here, both for your kids and yourself. Your kids need, and deserve, a well adjusted, emotionally happy father.

You can do it. Just get to work.

[CABBR]

Thanks GIMA,

I read a little of your sitch. At least there appears to be some hope of R for you and your W. You've been patient and calm, which seems like it's been productive in your case. I wish you the best. Hopefully you'll be one of the success stories on here.

Cabbr

[CABBR]

We had the "hearing" on temporary relief. My L seems to think it was huge that I am in my house until at least January and am sharing custody equally during that time period. The process consisted of our respective lawyers hashing out a compromise to submit to the judge to sign. I have to pay $600 in monthly support for the time being and don't have to pay for W's personal expenses beyond that.

However, I also have to scrape together as much as I can to help pay off her credit card debt incurred since she filed, which seems ridiculous, but the final disposition of that particular issue was held in reserve. W wouldn't agree to have it count toward her ultimate distribution, which again seems absurd. My L notes that my W was quite agitated that I wasn't just giving her what she wants and that she was in full entitlement mode. No disagreement there.

However, we did have a nice evening as a family. A couple of families from the neighborhood got together at one house for pizza and hanging out. W apparently told one couple we know quite well what is happening. The husband took me aside and let me know he was there for me, etc., which was very nice of him. He's a teddy bear of a guy - good man.

Anyway, he has heard or been relayed my W's version of events and rationale for wanting to end our M. And starts telling me that he could help me win her back, etc. And I'm like dude, I was in court today, she's done. She feels nothing for me as a H, doesn't love me, etc. He's a very well intentioned person and I've got another friend who thinks the same way, but they don't know half of what's going on, but still you think, OK, maybe he's right because here we are pretending we're still a family.

Cabbr

[givingitmyall]

Interesting. Why do your friends think they can help you win her back?

[sandi2]

Cabbr, I'm sure you have well meaning friends, but I don't think it would be wise to get your neighbors involved in your M problems. Michelle says not to talk to friends & family about it. Besides, you don't want your M troubles to become the gossip of the neighborhood. And that is exactly what would happen.

[CABBR]

Hi GIMA,

I don't really know. These folks only just found out the other day. They were shocked and totally unaware. (I'm thinking, didn't you notice that I was a walking zombie all though our kids' baseball season?) This particular guy is a believer in family and staying together - gee we should have used him as a marriage counselor.

From what he said to me, my W just fed him kind of a standard paint by numbers rationale: that I'm too set in my ways and not accepting of her wanting to do things and not make her feel guilty. No being supportive of her extra curricular activities, which is a fairy tale.

My W left out the money issues, the surgery, and the EA , of course and I didn't educate my friend in that regard except to say there's a lot more that you don't know about. He had had a few pops and thought, there's a way to fix this - you can be cured.

He's just coming up to speed on this and getting his hands around it. His perception is not of one who has been living in mental anguish for months on end.

So to answer your question, I don't think it's anything my W said to lead him to believe there's hope. I know from past experience that my W provides vague and innocuous reasons to friends/family for her wanting a D, i.e. "I just couldn't take the negativity anymore." In short, my W tries to make it cut and dry without too much explaining.

Cabbr

[CABBR]

Hi Sandi,

I hope this evening finds you well.

I think the gossip aspect is now bound to start happening. Until yesterday, I think there was only one other local neighbor/friend that knew anything. Actually, there had to be at least two because my W is using a realtor neighbor to look at houses and must have said something to her.

When he said something to me about hey how are you doing - I was a little taken aback and immediately began thinking well who else here knows about all this - it's kind of unsettling.

Cabbr

[Kimmie Lee]

Ok, this is one of the gaping holes in the db method. There is no way that you can keep family or friends from finding out, unless you live in isolation from them. They aren't stupid, and besides, the WAS usually has a head start on this anyway.

You might as well get as much, as you are comfortable with, of your side of the story out. You aren't the one who's done anything to be ashamed of, so why should the WAS be protected from their own sh!tty behavior?

[CABBR]

Thanks Kimmie Lee.

Yesterday was a really weird day for me. I never actually saw my W during the court proceeding. My L negotiated with her L in a small conference room and then came back to the room I was waiting in. My L indicated to me that my W seemed really pissed and was in complete entitlement mode that I was not giving her what she wanted. Well she got some of what she wanted.

Later I went to our friends' house where our boys were playing. My W was looking after all the kids while our neighbor went to pick up her little one. My W didn't seem at all irritable and was actually talkative. In some respects it was as if the previous two hours had never occurred. Neither of us mentioned it.

My view is that she got her immediate money issues somewhat resolved, so why shouldn't she be satisfied. The wardrobe train can keep rolling unimpeded with her allowance.

I've no idea how I'm going to pay significant upcoming expenses because now I have to basically give my W whatever cash I can muster to help pay off her debt associated with courses she is taking to launch a new part time career. This because there was no interim agreement in place previously.

I'm in kind of a crappy state of mind today. No, make that pissed. Until now, our situation was pretty much kept under wraps and it just irks me. I know it's going to happen eventually. I almost feel like I don't care what she says to our mutual friends. What difference does it make at this point? Today my W was sunny and friendly. We went to lunch with the kids. Today, I feel like a chump.

Cabbr

[CABBR]

It's almost as if the L's are absolutely afraid of the unknown, they want the lowest risk proposition they can negotiate, so they don't have to confront the possibility of an adverse or less than optimal outcome. I'm like, friekin' sling it down field and lay it all on the line because some things are worth risking it all. I feel like I rescued her yesterday and Greek's not going to be happy about that and ultimately neither am I.

Cabbr

[sandi2]

I've no idea how I'm going to pay significant upcoming expenses because now I have to basically give my W whatever cash I can muster to help pay off her debt associated with courses she is taking to launch a new part time career. This because there was no interim agreement in place previously.

Is this a debt in your name? Why would she not be responsibile for it?

[CABBR]

Thanks for your response Sandi.

Yes, the debt is in her name. My L is basically saying that because there was no interim order in place until last Friday, that my W had just as much right to spend all our money. (With the latest expenditures, 20k+ over 5 months on HERSELF. I don't see how this is remotely equitable or why a court would necessarily say that her timetable for launching a new part-time "career" takes precedence over the family's regualr financial obligations.)

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Thanks for your response Sandi.

Yes, the debt is in her name. My L is basically saying that because there was no interim order in place until last Friday, that my W had just as much right to spend all our money. (With the latest expenditures, 20k+ over 5 months on HERSELF. I don't see how this is remotely equitable or why a court would necessarily say that her timetable for launching a new part-time "career" takes precedence over the family's regualr financial obligations.)

Neither do I. Time to get a new lawyer.

Seriously, a good family law attorney should be able to make a strong case here for "squandering marital assets," and have that come from her side of the ledger.

Puppy

[givingitmyall]

Seriously, a good family law attorney should be able to make a strong case here for "squandering marital assets," and have that come from her side of the ledger.

Puppy, and cabbr, I'm not even sure it would take a "good" family law attorney to make out that case. I agree with puppy. Time to look for a new L. What your L is saying just doesn't sound right.

[CABBR]

PDT! GREAT to hear from you. It's taken me a while to get clarity on some of this stuff and I'm still making mistakes.

The issue of whether the money I am now required to pay her comes out of her distribution has been reserved. So I suspect I have a very good chance of prevailing ... eventually on this issue, but it just spools me up to be in the position of having to liquidate every thing I (we) have in order to feed her entitlement beast. It feels very much like I've rescued her.

My L takes a long view with respect to my goals of staying in the house, getting the kids as much as possible and preserving some semblance of financial security. My L made a point of saying it's HUGE that I'm still in the house after this initial proceeding, but that there had to be some quid pro quo to avoid credit problems for my W. This AM I told my L I wanted to get the temporary order amended and haven't heard back.

Cabbr

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Cabbr,

Why is it so "huge" that you get to remain in your own house?

Unless there is documented abuse, it's almost ALWAYS difficult to make one spouse leave the marital home. Unless I'm missing something, it's almost as if your L is telling the Indians they get to keep their land.

Puppy

[CABBR]

Puppy,

Initially, my L was saying the same thing, that unless there is abuse and ugliness in the home, the court generally doesn't require one to leave.

However, the other day my L seemed to base this compromise on fear of the unknown - the judge was new and could have orderd me to leave. I think my L simply felt it was not worth the risk.

The judge was also female and my point was that she might be affronted by my W's behavior. My L (who is a woman) completely dismissed this idea saying that judges don't get riled up by much anymore. My L believed that what my W had done wouldn't make the least bit of difference to a judge - male or female. So I either trust my L's judgment or start looking for a new one.

It really goes against the grain to have to fork over more cash right now, but the issue is held in reserve, and I have to believe anyone looking at this objectively would see the inequity.

Cabbr

[CABBR]

Last night after reading to my s9 he wanted to see W, so I called down to W to come upstairs. I went down and in the dining room, where W sets up her office, there is, in plain site, a draft of a paper she is submitting for her mediation course work on our D! It's like a negotiation case study. It details her position and mine. I scan it and walk into the kitchen.

About 30 seconds later W comes bolting down the stairs - obviously remembering that she left this document sitting there.

I didn't mention anything about it, but I'm thinking "you've got to be kidding me."

Cabbr

[iwantittowork]

a draft of a paper she is submitting for her mediation course work on our D! It's like a negotiation case study. It details her position and mine. I scan it and walk into the kitchen.

Cabbr, I am not sure what this means? Is it a paper for a class? Course work?

First, though, disregard it, you can't control what she is doing, only how your reacting. I understand you didn't say anything to her about it, but put it aside in your mind.

It details her position and mine. I scan it and walk into the kitchen.

Obviously it details her position and what she THINKS is your position, but are you going to mediation? I had thought you were at the lawyer to lawyer stage currently?

Sorry, I am just not following what it is, but my comment aside is what I would say remains. I know hard to do, I have a hard time with that myself...

[CABBR]

Hey IWITW,

Yes, it's a paper for the class W is taking. She's chronicling the negotiation aspect of the D. It's just weird - I don't know. Doesn't that strike you as being just a little out there?

And yes, we are at the point now where there is little benefit in mediation. She is in full blown entitlement mode. Although, I have to take a harder line in these lawyer-to-lawyer negotiations. I just got notice for a hearing on child support at the end of the month, so things are moving right along. I think this whole thing will be wrapped in a big bow for Christmas.

Cabbr

[iwantittowork]

Yes, it's a paper for the class W is taking. She's chronicling the negotiation aspect of the D. It's just weird - I don't know. Doesn't that strike you as being just a little out there?

Yes it sounds weird, but I swear I could picture my W doing the same thing right now, no doubt about it. I have stopped wondering why my W does what she does, I'd suggest you try the same as best as possible. You'll never know what she is thinking and why she does what she does, currently, so the only thing it does is add unneeded stress on you, created by you.. If that makes sense..

Sorry to hear your where you are, I am going to be rapidly approaching where you are soon also. It is what it is. Coach would say you can handle it, I hope I can as well..

[CABBR]

Thanks IWITW, I just checked out your thread a little - eegads - we've got a lot in common.

I think these days Cabbr ... is done. I try to avoid looking at my wife, but when I do, it's sort of in the vein of a detached (mostly) by-stander watching a particularly nasty car wreck.

I will be able to handle it better now, but my kids are still in the dark in terms of what's really happening and I have to be strong for them. I also have to focus on what I want.

Cabbr

[CABBR]

For some reason, my W bought me a new shower curtain yesterday and today she is packing the kids stuff because I'm taking them on a trip this weekend. I felt like saying, no thanks I can take care of it, but I just let her do her thing. I am pretty dark at this point and will remain so.

Cabbr

[iwantittowork]

eegads - we've got a lot in common.

That's what I noticed in your thread as well, and why I had been posting in it.

You'll find common themes in almost every thread, even though every person and sitch is different.

I also have to focus on what I want.

Keep that in the fore front of your mind. I find myself slipping at times, thinking of the 'family' including my W. The current 'family' is you and your kids, as the W wants out.

I find it hard to believe, but it has to be, that our W's don't think of us as 'family' anymore where they are at..

[CABBR]

IWITW,

Yes, when I was considering a job offer in an adjoining state, and I was conflicted about marginalizing my relationship with the kids - she was said, "Why, I'll be there for them."

Although I'm not sure why it matters at this point, I have to do a better job of being cheerful around my W. I'm having a hard time with the "loving" part of detachment. Most of the time I'm just kind of flat when speaking to her. I'm not rude, but not too warm either - mostly because I'm pissed off about the pain inflicted on our children. just venting.

Anyway, I had a good weekend away with my boys. Minimal contact with W. Just a few phone calls to have kids say good morning and good night to her. They still ask why she can't come with us and why she has to work at night, etc. Even my little guy asks. At least she was home this time when we got back on Sunday, so they could spend time with her.

Cabbr

[CABBR]

Yesterday we saw the child psychologist to review results from tests administered to s9 for potential adhd diagnosis. She recemmends that s9 not regularly see her because of his guarded responses and that we meet with her instead, which I think makes a lot of sense. I'm sensing that the psychologist is beginning to see that s9 is pretty normal and needs more consistent boundaries, etc.

We're starting to see tangible progress in how my son approaches and reacts to things due, in part, to structure implemented at home.

S9's new teacher is also helping a lot with organization and completion of school/home work. S9 seems to be owning these responsibilities more. I don't have to hold his hand as much in finishing home work.

My W has been working a lot of nights. Two different restaurants. This is a woman with an MBA and tons of business experience. She arrived home last night after midnight - usually gets home at 10:30. Said something this morning about one of the restaurant managers being uptight. I didn't respond and didn't say anything about her late arrival. Should I be engaging when she says something or pretend to not GAS?

My boys climbed into bed with me this morning. The first thing s9 says is why can't Mommy sleep upstairs. They still have no clue what is actually going down. I am wondering whether it's fair to not tell them until we know when one of us is actually moving out. I don't see that happening for months.

Cabbr

[givingitmyall]

Hey cabbr,

I have a S with ADHD as well, so I know some of what you are going through with that. Isn't bad once you understand, and I was not a believer at first.

I didn't respond and didn't say anything about her late arrival. Should I be engaging when she says something or pretend to not GAS?

I wouldn't give her the cold shoulder. You don't have to act like it's the most comeplling thing you've heard in a while. Just listen and respond as you see fit. Just don't be cold.

I am wondering whether it's fair to not tell them until we know when one of us is actually moving out. I don't see that happening for months.

Don't think I would tell them unless you KNOW this IS going to happen. Otherwise, what happens if you tell them then no one moves out. No reason to bring that upon them until necessary.

[CABBR]

Hey GIMA,

Thanks. I don't know whether I'll ever be a believer in medication, at least insofar as s9 is concerned. There are just too many alternatives not yet explored.

I'll try to be less flat with my W. It's hard for me to be shiny happy because I'm in kind of a low grade boil when I'm around her. I know that doesn't help. I have to repeat Strength and Honor.

The degree of dissociation from the M and me is just breath taking at times. The intel is suggesting an all out custody battle.

Cabbr

[givingitmyall]

Funny, my S is 9 too. Medication has helped him, but it took a while to find the right one.

Work on detaching. No matter what happens, you will feel better about you.

[CABBR]

I just read AlexEn's sitch on dropping the D bomb on the kids at the beginning of August. Some great posts there. As is said so often, there are so many similarities.

I will be going through this part of the "process" in about a week or so. I don't expect s9 to react violently but he will be plenty pissed.

My W of course has all the books about coping too and is wanting to create handwritten books for s6 and s9, which sounds like more of the morally relativistic nonsense about how families don't end but relationships do. She'll want to develop a script.

We have a counseling session with a child psychologist next week and my W wants to tell the kids the same day. She now agrees that the children need time to process the situation, i.e. don't wait until the day before she is moving out.

I want to take the Coach approach and say nothing during the speech. I want her to own it because it's her choice, but don't want to seem vindictive or provide ammunition for my boys to build resentment toward W (though they already have), which is why I think saying nothing is probably best.

I don't think anything should be said about her spending or EA post bomb, but I'm not sure how to handle ambiguous explanations that skirt the truth. I believe my W will want to make this seem as innocuous and mutual as possible, i.e. "we've decided to end our marriage," but I worry about the "because" part of the statement. I'm wondering how to handle this aspect - the bullchit factor as PDT might say.

My W wanted to speak with me late Saturday night about custody schedules, property division, vacations, etc. I asked her what her intentions were in regard to living arrangements and working. She confirmed she is looking for another house to buy and has no plans to begin working full time for at least 6-8 months so she can finish course work in mediation(LOL) certification. W indicates her first priority is to be a Mom to our children and therefore will not work a regular job at least for a few years. I just sort of nodded and didn't get too agitated.

Her proposed custody schedule is more reasonable, but I let her know (again) that I will not accept less than 50% physcial custody and she starts saying she is offering more than I would get, asking if I know the law and hopes I am listening to my L - as if I am ignoring L's advice. She finally packs up her marbles and says we can fight it out in court along with everything else.

Funny, she was a little nicer the next morning.

Cabbr.

[CABBR]

Yesterday, we met with a child psychologist again in regard to how and when to tell the kids (S9, S6). The psych still believes in not saying anything until you know what's going to happen and when.

While this seems sound, my W has told the parents of a number of S9's friends and it could easily get back to out kids through their friends, which would be awful. Plus we have some of these kids over and they ask, referring to the basement, who sleeps here?

Following this meeting, my W wants to engage in more of what I think PDT would describe as "normalizing" - going places with one parent and the other becoming scarce, so the kids become more acclimated to this situation. While it may lessen their anxiety in the near term, I think it just confuses them more and seems like it's being done just as much to lessen the guilt of the WAS, so that when the bomb is ultimately droped on them, the kids are so desensitised they don't really react. I really don't want to play this game.

Despite their ages, my kids have a right to know and they are quite conflicted/upset at times when Mommy is out or working at night.

What do you guys think?

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I think you should tell them. The fact that so many others know, and they could hear it from someone OTHER than their parents, outweighs everything else, in my opinion.

I also think some time with one parent is good. In fact, it is the "one big happy family Fun Days" -- after they've been told of possible D or S -- that tends to confuse them.

"Normalizing" refers to the cheating spouse trying to get everyone in their life to be "OK with everything," and I think it's more about the ADULTS. Kids need both of their parents, first and foremost, and as long as she's not lying to them, or putting them in any unhealthy environments, I think some time alone with each of you would be good.

Your wife also needs to feel what it would be like to single-parent them, without you. She may not like it.

Puppy

[CABBR]

Thanks PDT,

We've had a few outings and dinners as a family, but on the weekends, my W is usually out or working. While there is no semblance of a marital relationship, most of the environmental and emotional trappings of a family are present, which confuses the kids.

My W plans on taking the kids to my SIL's house for part of their Thanksgiving break (they get the entire week)and I would take them for the back half. This will be interesting as S9 has said he doesn't want to go anywhere without me. I don't see how this charade can continue much longer.

I don't think my W will feel the full consequence of being a single parent until she moves out, which is not likely to occur for several months into the new year. There is more than a fiar chance that we will be living under the same roof after the D is final.

CABBR

[CABBR]

Last night I mentioned to my W that we should tell the kids sooner rather than later and she now doesn't want to. She thought we should just tell them we "aren't getting along." To which I responded that it isn't fair to them they are already hurting and questioning everything.

She said we still don't have a plan.

I asked is it your intention to move out of this house?
W:yes.

Do you intend to buy another house in town?
W: yes.

M: Sounds like a plan.

She says nothing can be done until some of the properties are sold and that she's entitled to half the marital equity. I said yes your are. But what you're entitled to will not provide sufficient equity to buy another house. She thought I would make up the difference and I don't think I'm obligated to do that.

I said that I don't know what you make (she has a half a dozen part time jobs) and what you will need, and therefore don't know what my finanical commitments will be.

My W says to assume that it will not be much until she can get re-established in a career of some kind.

My W has realized the obvious fact that she will not have the money to buy a place and move out until several months into the new year at the earliest.

She appears to want to use the interim time to her best financial advantage, i.e. we live in the same house so that she doesn't have to make much money while she gets her ducks in a row. This arrangement also has the added bonus of slowly prying the kids way from the concept of a nuclear family. This feels like more of the same, i.e. cake eating.

CABBR

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Feels that way to me, too.

My advice would be for YOU to initiate some sort of legal action, so that you can get her to do the required financial disclosures that will have to accompany it. Until you have that, you simply have no idea what's "fair" here.

You also need to tell your kids. If she won't, then tell her you will, and she can be there if she'd like to be, but that you're going to tell them the truth.

Puppy

[robx]

I just read AlexEn's sitch on dropping the D bomb on the kids at the beginning of August. Some great posts there. As is said so often, there are so many similarities.

I will be going through this part of the "process" in about a week or so. I don't expect s9 to react violently but he will be plenty pissed.

My W of course has all the books about coping too and is wanting to create handwritten books for s6 and s9, which sounds like more of the morally relativistic nonsense about how families don't end but relationships do. She'll want to develop a script.

We have a counseling session with a child psychologist next week and my W wants to tell the kids the same day. She now agrees that the children need time to process the situation, i.e. don't wait until the day before she is moving out.

I want to take the Coach approach and say nothing during the speech. I want her to own it because it's her choice, but don't want to seem vindictive or provide ammunition for my boys to build resentment toward W (though they already have), which is why I think saying nothing is probably best.

I don't think anything should be said about her spending or EA post bomb, but I'm not sure how to handle ambiguous explanations that skirt the truth. I believe my W will want to make this seem as innocuous and mutual as possible, i.e. "we've decided to end our marriage," but I worry about the "because" part of the statement. I'm wondering how to handle this aspect - the bullchit factor as PDT might say.

My W wanted to speak with me late Saturday night about custody schedules, property division, vacations, etc. I asked her what her intentions were in regard to living arrangements and working. She confirmed she is looking for another house to buy and has no plans to begin working full time for at least 6-8 months so she can finish course work in mediation(LOL) certification. W indicates her first priority is to be a Mom to our children and therefore will not work a regular job at least for a few years. I just sort of nodded and didn't get too agitated.

Her proposed custody schedule is more reasonable, but I let her know (again) that I will not accept less than 50% physcial custody and she starts saying she is offering more than I would get, asking if I know the law and hopes I am listening to my L - as if I am ignoring L's advice. She finally packs up her marbles and says we can fight it out in court along with everything else.

Funny, she was a little nicer the next morning.

Cabbr.

You can inform her that the law is going to decide in the best interests of the children, not in HER best interests. It isn't the 1970's anymore, if a man has shown that he's a good father, a good role model and willingly wants to take shared custody of his children, ie. 50%, he will get it - he just has to make he makes his intentions clear. It is no longer assumed that the mother is the best parent for children: there are too many child & family welfare studies that show the opposite.

Tell her that what she is offering is her futile attempt to control you and the outcome of what's going to happen. Just because she's taking law courses doesn't make her a judge, she doesn't know what the final decision will be and if she's half the legal beagle she's trying to make herself out to be, you tell her that any decision can be appealed several times and you won't stop fighting until you get treated equally & fairly which means 50% child custody. If she expects for you to just shrivel up and fall down and just take what's handed to you, she is mistaken.

If she really had the children's best interests in mind, remind her of this, she wouldn't even attempt to take the children away from you, she would agree to 50% child custody because she knows you're a good parent and she knows the children are in good hands when they're with you. Since she doesn't feel this way, she isn't operating out of basis for what's best for the children, she's operating out of what's best for her: she knows this, you see this, and the courts will see this and they will respond accordingly.

If she doesn't agree, then I guess you can tell her that she's going to have come up with quite a few really good reasons why you having 50% custody of the children is bad for them? The woman/man - mother/father stereotype isn't going to fly anymore - it didn't in my situation.

I was able to establish a pattern of behavior on my wife's part where her concern was for her best interests and not of the children's. Wreckless spending, not spending time with the children, only being with the children when it was convenient, taking odd jobs here & there, quitting jobs whenever she felt, not working because she didn't want to work full time (it's 2009, anyone & everyone should work unless your filthy rich), focusing more on her personal life and less on her children, severe mood changes, different personality, not being able to provide a secure & stable environment for the children, having to rely on me for everything, etc. The list went on & on.

You can tell her that you've been watching her and your list is long and she knows her past behavior has been wreckless and although past behavior isn't indicative of future performance, if you can list a considerable amount of questionable activity, you can raise quite a bit of doubt as to her capacity to be the sole primary custodial parent.

Cabbr, she still sounds like she enjoys some power in this situation with you, time to take her down a few notches, wake her up a bit, she won't be living in utopia when the divorce goes through, she'll have to put on her "big girl panties" and she might find they're a little uncomfortable since she hasn't worn them in a bit. ;-)

[CityGirl]

I don't have children so I cant really comment on that aspect. What I can gently suggest though is to avoid any "tit for tat" conversation w/your W about what your attny said or what her attny said. Because attny's will spin things to their clients and in turn the WAS will spin them even further to the LBS.

There is a reason for attny/client privilege and you are under NO obligation to share anything you and your legal counsel talk about.

I live in NY state where the divorce laws are a NIGHTMARE. Irreconcilable differences isn't even a legal ground for divorce here. My H's attny told him not to worry about his affair because the only way I could file for divorce with the ground of adultery is to have a third party witness say in a trial that they witnessed my H and his GF having sexual relations. What my H's attny FAILED to tell him was that I could file under the grounds of cruel and inhumane treatment because as per NY state law starting a sexual R outside of marriage *is* considered cruel and inhumane.

Adultery in NY is *very* hard to prove so most people think they will get off scott free when an affair is involved. Its not the case at all, one just must choose different grounds to file under.

As I said, I cant comment on the custody aspect or the laws of the state you live in but I can recommend you educate yourself as much as possible. It feels like CRAP to be served divorce papers but in a way it gives you a leg up. The day after I was served I marched down to the courthouse and found every public record I could about my H's attny and what firm won the most cases against him. My second stop was at that firm to retain them.

I also took a free class about divorce that was hosted by a local women's organization but men were more than welcome to attend as well. While this class was not to dole out legal advice it was informative about laws and rights, policy and procedure and other bits of information that can be vague if you have never worked with an attny or been through a divorce before.

I did this all very quietly and none of it was to be vindictive. Thankfully the firm that had the most success against my H's attny (the one I retained) also was a firm who had a philosophy that I liked very much.

Do not make threats about how you plan to handle your legal business. Just do what you can to educate yourself on your rights and find the most civil and kind way to execute them.

Our court hearing took less than 20 min. and my H and I were not even in the judge's chambers as we had reached an agreement on our own and our attny's simply had to put it on the oral record in front of the judge.

I made it very clear to my H I was NOT fooling around as far as my legal counsel went and while I would work with him as the law required me to do, my main goal was to protect myself and my future.

Funny thing is, my H's attny turned out to be a huge dirt bag and my H actually trusts my attny more than he does his own.

It is possible to protect yourself legally without a blood bath taking place. It takes some work and diligence but its not that far out of the realm of possibility.

[CABBR]

Thanks Rob.

Insofar as custody, I will just take her schedule and invert it every other week to achieve 50%. I told her the other day there are lots of ways to achieve this result, but she doesn't want to not see the kids on the weekend and won't accept not seeing them for 4 days in a row. She also doesn't want to alternate the schedule during the school week, so with all these preconditions it's almost not worth even having the conversation.

For the most part I've not been confrontational in respect to legal issues - just articulating my goals.

What you said about her being primarily focused on her own best interests is absolutely true and she knows having the children more nights means more support.

I like what you said about having to come up with some really good reasons why giving me 50% is bad for the children and that it's clear what she is proposing is not in the best interests of the kids. Most of the family court judges are also women with kids - who would likely have little sympathy for her position. Appeals are a tricky proposition because the standard for review is abuse of discretion by the trial court which is hard to meet, yet the fight can still be brought - forcing costs to be incurred.

My W is also intending to remain underemployed. She has an MBA and made 200k ten years ago. Currently she has a half dozen part time jobs, for which any high school student would be qualified. I can also establish a pattern of irresponsible spending and for the last 6 months I've been around the kids a lot more than she has.

This is one of my dilemas. I am reluctant to really go out much and develop a social life because I want to make sure my kids know that 50% of the parenting team is dedicated to them. My W sees this and certainly has exploited it at times.

There have been numerous times when my W would tell me at the last minute that she needed to go somewhere or do something school related when I got home from work and I would just say OK fine.

There is the DB technique of being mysterious and going out and perhaps even dating to instill the fear of loss versus showing an unassailable pattern of responsibility and dependability as a parent. One solution is to go out after the kids are in bed to catch a game or whatever.

The emphasis at this point has to be my kids. The DB stuff has to be a lower priority. But it would be fun to see what kind of reaction, if any, there would be from my W.

Since learning about the things s6 has been saying when she goes out, my W has been much more engaged with the kids and has been upbeat and pleasant around me. But the intel doesn't suggest any change in heart whatsoever. I think she has come to accept the simple fact that we are in limbo for a good 4-6 months and she wants to use this time to slowly disolve our boys' perception of our family, so she doesn't have to face as big a $h!t storm later on as well as exploit the financial aspect of us continuing to live under the same roof.

In regard to having power in this situation, on the surface that may be true - certainly with respect to my willingness to accommodate her schedule and accept her lack of involvement around the house. But the real end game here is custody and finances and I think I have positioned myself as well as I can on both fronts.

Short of insisting the kids be told of the pending D and being more openly confrontational in regard to custody, I'm not sure what else I can do to take her down a peg or whether I need to. I think on the advise of counsel she has nixed any efforts to date or find OM. As far as I can tell, she doesn't have the time anyway. Her EA imploded after exposure.

CABBR

[CABBR]

Thanks CityGirl

The cruel and inhumane treatment angle is interesting.

My W engaged in a bit of gamesmanship early on - saying things like I could easily end up with one weekend a month and be required to leave the house, but I gave her Rob's "this is not the 1970's" speech and the fact that she has absolutely no reason to suggest that I can't take care of the kids as well as she. But now she just seems to think she is in the driver's seat on custody. I don't think so for many of the reasons Rob cited.


The day after I was served I marched down to the courthouse and found every public record I could about my H's attny and what firm won the most cases against him. My second stop was at that firm to retain them.

That^ was smart.

I also took a free class about divorce that was hosted by a local women's organization but men were more than welcome to attend as well. While this class was not to dole out legal advice it was informative about laws and rights, policy and procedure and other bits of information that can be vague if you have never worked with an attny or been through a divorce before.

The family court here offers this type of course and my W took it, but I did not.

Do not make threats about how you plan to handle your legal business. Just do what you can to educate yourself on your rights and find the most civil and kind way to execute them.

Good advice^ and I'm trying to follow it.

CABBR

[CityGirl]

I wouldnt be so sure a female judge is prone to be more sympathetic to your W. Originally we had a male judge (very nice, very fair) and it was my H's attny that actually requested a judge change to another judge who happened to be female (again, very nice and fair).

Considering my H had an affair and the illness I have my H's attny took a HUGE risk in requesting a judge change as there was a good chance the new judge would be female.

Judge's dont rule based on gender. There job is to examine facts and what is in the best interest of the child(ren). And your legal counsel will be able to present that in the best way for you.

Both judges we had (the male and female) didnt seem to handle things any different based on their gender. All I can say is they were both nice, fair, calm and from what I saw there was no bias based on gender.

The man judge was older and the female judge was younger. I dont think gender or age demographic plays a big a role as one would think. Or I should say in *my* experience it did not.

In our family court its about 50/50 with male to female judges.

[CABBR]

Last night I told W we needed to tell the kids this week. She had wanted to wait until Thanskgiving - two days before she and kids would be gone for a few days. I said no way. That they need more time to absorb, adjust, grieve, etc. after gettin the initial bomb fropped on them.

She was concerned about them not having a break from school after being told. While that's a reasonable consideration, I thought it more important that both of us be there for them for at least a week subsequent to dropping the bomb on them.

I was also pretty adamant about them needing to know because we're not exactly modeling a healthy family life. I really dislike the way things have gone in that my W's actions have had the effect of slowly dissolving the framework of our family as if that's healthier for our boys than simply giving them an age appropriate explanation of the basic facts.

For the first time, I also made clear this would not be a "we" discussion. I said you can be as vague about the details but that I would correct her if she started saying anything about it being a mutual decision.

I was traveling last week on business and the whole situation was getting me down. I was really jetlagged and tired and became more emotional about everything.

I think she may attempt to delay further because her "plan" for leaving the marital home is not completely baked. Because of the risk of the kids finding out from other sources, I believe they should be told, so I wondering whether I should initiate the discussion if she prefers to wait. Bottom line is I think they have a right to know what's in store.

CABBR

[Puppy Dog Tails]

CABBR,

Good for you for taking charge here. Yes, you should give her a "if you don't tell them, I will" deadline. "By this Sunday" would be reasonable.

Keep standing up for yourself, and -- more importantly -- FOR YOUR KIDS. Sadly, your wife does NOT have the family's best interests at heart right now, so that pretty much leaves you.

The good news is, as Coach would say, "You can handle it."

Puppy

[CABBR]

CABBR,

Good for you for taking charge here. Yes, you should give her a "if you don't tell them, I will" deadline. "By this Sunday" would be reasonable.

Keep standing up for yourself, and -- more importantly -- FOR YOUR KIDS. Sadly, your wife does NOT have the family's best interests at heart right now, so that pretty much leaves you.

The good news is, as Coach would say, "You can handle it."

Puppy

Thanks PDT,

It was my birthday over the weekend. I got back from a trip to the far east on Friday afternoon. My two boys were an absolute joy. They made welcome home signs. They painted little ceramic bowls for me. W worked that day, but made a cake and a nice dinner. No gift, but I surely didn't expect one. I brought home some toys for s6 and s10 and even a small gift for W. So the boys see some of the trappings of a normal family life - meanwhile the tsunami is looming.

Just this morning, my W sent me an email saying she wanted to tell the kids in phases because she read something about kids associating holidays and birthdays if they are around the same time as the bomb drop. That may be true, but the whole thing is going to be wrapped up inside of three months and I thought it extremely disrespectful to them as human beings and to their already fragile concept of family (whatever that might be at this point) to delay this any further.

She wanted to begin the dialgue with them by saying there is a problem. As soon as you say there is a "problem," s10 will inquire as to what that means and seek reassurances as to what it does not mean. They both know there is a problem. They've already been emotionally damaged by living in a house with a lot of tension and witnessing a non-relationship between the two most important people in their lives.

I told her that you're not going to anesthetize them from the pain by dragging it out. They are already hurt, confused and fearful. I don't want to ruin s9's birthday (early Dec) or Christmas, but there is really no choice - they need to know before it's all over.

So I will continue the discussion, but it will not go past this weekend.

CABBR

[Puppy Dog Tails]

CABBR,

fwiw, when it looked like my wife and I were going to D (or at least S), we did kind of do it in "phases" with the boys, first telling them that "Mom and Dad are having some problems," and then letting them know when we went to a Retrouvaille weekend, and then to an MC, and then we started talking to them about the two residences, etc.

I am NO expert on this subject, but I remember saying to the fetching Mrs. Puppy "I dunno, I feel like either we're way lowballing the kids on this, or else we've totally hit on a great way to handle it, because they SURE are taking it well."

My older son (now 16), particularly, does NOT like surprises, and doesn't handle conflict very well. Telling him in "doses", I think, made it easier on him.

I do feel, that HOWEVER you do it though, they need to be told SOMETHING like YESTERDAY, because -- as you've noted -- their friends' parents know, and it's only a matter of time before they hear something from someone OTHER than their parents, which would be horrible.

Puppy

[CABBR]

Thanks PDT,

I will take that to heart. We are pretty far down the road in my sitch and nothing has been said to illuminate what's really happening.

The MC train has come and gone and was largley a way for my W to save face - nothing more. No real skin in the game.

The D will be final inside of 3 months - my state doesn't belabor the issue. So even if done in phases, we are going to have to maintain a pretty short cycle. We may salage some normalcy during the holidays but immediately afterward, we will be divorced.

She may still be living in the house, but we'll be divorced. SO there is the option of phasing it in but not telling them when the D is final. That seems dishonest to them.

CABBR

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I tend to agree.