In Utter Agony...Long 1st Post

[eternaloptimist]

Just a thought, but how about if -- for your 40th weekend -- YOU made plans, for a "girls' cruise" or even just a "girls night out" with your female friends? Then, when it comes up again in context (and don't mention it until it does, or it will look "forced"), say "Oh, that. Well, when you told me about your plans, I made plans of my own, and me and (GF names) are going to Atlantic City (or whatever) for a girls weekend!"

Great ideas! We talked about this and he said he was sorry that he'd made those plans w/out talking to me first. He wants to do something on the Saturday beforehand. Sigh...

[eternaloptimist]

Keep that attitude Eternal, with that and your new hot look, he is going over that in his mind believe me. I do not know you and have never seen you, and I am thinking about it right now, it is just how we are, fortunately or unfortunately.

Burt

Thanks, Burt! Trying to GAL and make myself FEEL and LOOK better for me no matter what happens. I think I can start to see things more clearly now and make better choices for my life now that he's come clean about everything.

I have always been the one to see the glass half full, being true to my user name. I guess that is why I'm the one DBing now. My H says he's not even remotely interested in sex. How can that be? This makes me thing he is suffering from a chemical imbalance. We've experienced so much trauma, and that does something to your brain.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

EA,

I was VERY concerned to hear on your other thread that your husband bruised you. Can you tell us some more about that incident, or any others? If you'd mentioned this already, I must have missed it.

Concerned,

Puppy

[eternaloptimist]

EA,

I was VERY concerned to hear on your other thread that your husband bruised you. Can you tell us some more about that incident, or any others? If you'd mentioned this already, I must have missed it.

Concerned,

Puppy

Hi, Puppy. Oh, thanks for checking in. You are so considerate! I'm ok, really I am. My H has never, ever hit me or threatened any physical abuse. Honestly, the abuse I've suffered has only been emotional.

The bruising is on my arms. My H, son and I were at an event only 2 weeks after the EA was first exposed. So I'm still in the PTSD phase of processing everything KWIM? His therapist was there at the event and I knew that I might see her. But I did not pre-meditate doing anything. I honestly went to the event to support my husband and had no intentions of confronting the therapist. I had never met her but saw her picture online. I just happened to see her in the crowd.

When my H saw that I recognized her, H got very upset and had to restrain me very hard from approaching her. (Of course now I realize why since H has come clean about everything.) He was worried that I would do something to get arrested, or so he said. He didn't want me to confront her and get her husband involved. Who knows what an angry spouse will do, right? I watched her from a distance and she was being very overtly sexual, lying with her hands behind her on the ground pushing her boobs out and tossling her hair next to her husband, smiling, and acting very flirtatious with other men too. As I watched her, she flirted with one man after the other and it outraged me. She stood up and coyly dangled her calf and twisted her hair around her finger. It was disgusting. I snapped. H tried to keep me from engaging her in public, so he had to restrain me pretty hard. I'm glad that he did, not glad for the bruising though or what impact it had on our son. (For that, I'm very sad. He thought that his Dad was hurting me. I've since reframed it so that our son knows that Daddy was trying to protect me.)

My outrage diffused back to a healthier level, and I ended up leaving the event, going back to my car, calming down, and rationally coming to the conclusion that I had to go back and confront her in a different way, sans her husband. So I did. I verbally and emotionally vomited all over her and I have no regrets. In person, she said very little to me. She maintained it was a friendship but last time I checked friends don't say that their hearts ache when they are apart! (These were her words in an email.) In hindsight, did I do the right thing? Well, I guess it depends on what outcome you value. At that moment, it felt right to humiliate her in public and let her know that I was fully aware of her blatant disgregard for her professional ethics as a social worker. I did it for ME and now I can move on to healing...

Thanks so much for your concern. I am really ok.

[25yearsmlc]

Dear EO,

Um, first...OUCH OUCH!!! This definitely hurts! Okay, got that out of the way...(sigh) So....

The bruising on your arms, as I read your earlier posts, were to restrain you from "losing it" and in public, and in front of your kid. And you do have to stop that or you'll risk some custody issues. Are you getting c from someone for YOU? The anger is so palpable in all of your posts it's hard not to want to just say STOP AND TAKE A BREATH...ask yourself about what your real goals are and whether what you are about to say or do, will move you towards any of those goals.

Also you said something earlier that really hit me. YOU said you "can't forgive a PA". Okay, if you can't forgive one, then 1) he won't tell you of one, so stop asking. Unless he knows your "rule" AND he wants a divorce so I would not expect a confession or keep asking that question unless you simplyu want to get the M and divorce over with, assuming an A.... and 2) if you know you won't forgive it, and there was one, then why bother being here?

You can forgive whatever you choose to forgive. It takes work on both ends but if you are going to hold it over his head forever IF it's true, or suspect it always....then this is a waste of time. Am I hearing this correctly? You are having a meeting to discuss the financial aspects of divorce, not the emotional ones (except as they relate to your son)? IS that still true? And you did read the DB books?

I just see a list of grievances on your posts and whenever you discuss forgiveness you have a "compare and contrast" note that shows how much more you are forgiving (??? which is NOT forgiving b/c you are measuring and keeping track, and sooo NOT letting go) and that "he is not forgiving..." well you have no control over whether he'll forgive you but I can tell you that you CAN model it for him. Many of us don't know what forgiveness looks like b/c we didn't see it as kids or we equate it with condoning and it is not the same.

Seems letting go of past hurts and forgiving Is probably a big issue for both of you and you only control yourself, so you know what that means.

As for the "financial infidelities" on your end, you seem to gloss over those a lot. Or you immediately explained them away and made no mention of how HE felt about them except "anger" as if he had no real valid reason for it. I don't think infertility treatments are purely financial choices either, do you? Did you make those choices without involving him? And as for not losing the weight, well, my "morbidly obese" sister (I'm using the medical term, okay?) wanted kids but would not lose the weight that the doctors said would "greatly increase her fertility" and while she did not lose the weight, SHE resented the fact that for "Some reason" she was "denied kids" and her h resented the $20k it was going to cost to implant/treat while she did not lose the weight. (He also found it unattractive, but that's a side issue). The treatments failed, as did the M but I digress. Just saying I can see my x-bil's point.

Plus my own h made some solo "financial choices" to invest our money, which he STILL defends as good choices, or "seemed good at the time" no matter the evidence to the contrary AND the fact that he should not have made them without MY input or vote. That's just wrong and I don't care if he had purchased microsoft stock 20 years ago and we had made a fortune. It's a control issue and it's disrespectful to do it without agreement.

You also defend yourself a lot about the choices to "not support him" during his grief, b/c you had to protect your son (??) etc. Frankly that sounds as if you chose to avoid discomfort on your end or you didn't have the tools and didn't get them...

Are you really owning your part in this sitch? B/C imo, you are not really "owning" anything if you admit something only to immediately defend or explain it. You are making this about you being "right" or "more right than h"...and DBing is not about being right. It's about forgiveness, reconciliation, and being HAPPY.

Most LBSers are "right" to feel hurt and most WAS's are "wrong" to leave. WE get that. But being "right" it gets us nowhere. Lose the measuring stick and as my DB coach said, "Lose the anger, at least in front of h" or you'll fuel his reasons for feeling estranged or wanting out. You need to contrast the negative images he has or is creating in his mind, with positives.

The therapist stuff or A, is weird. IF your take on it is totally accurate, and I'm not clear that it is, due to the confrontational behavior you engaged in which (sorry to say this....) sounds over the top on your end. If it had been me and I was SURE of it, I'd simply have reported her to the appropriate authorities after getting some T myself to be sure I was not getting crazy myself. And I'd surely stop threatening her or your h and make a choice. The threats make it seem as if you enjoy the control or power you feel.

If you choose to "out her" you may be doing a favor to the world, etc BUT ask another T, (a male please) about the effect it'll have on YOUR M AND whether you are accurate in your assessment of the behavior....it's not your job to fix the t at the moment. MAybe later that will need addressing but for now, don't you have enough on your plate? And you have to avoid looking vindictive even if it is justified. REMEMBER...we all feel "justified" (including *& especially the WAS.)

Anyhow, what are you doing to start the forgiveness part of your action plans? I found some good exercises in "Return to Love" that deal specifically with letting go of anger in a healthy way. Helped me at least. I say this b/c I want YOU to be happy and if you don't let go of this stuff, you won't be. My signature about "hell" is something I really mean. We inflict hell upon ourselves by not letting go of the past hurts EVEN IF the M ends....we have to move on without feeling like victims. Make sense? Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself (some great material on this site about it),. Besides, if your h feels you'll always hold onto the hurt and keep it over his head or punish him, he'll be less likely to come back. Model forgivenes and it'll do wonders for your whole family and that is a legacy worthy of your beautiful son.

I just don't see how any long term M, can survive, let alone thrive, without some MAJOR forgiveness. And that means letting go of the stuff and not bringing it up or measuring. We don't use the same measuring cups anyhow and we are often not even aware of the things we did or said that hurt our spouses, let alone the "weight" they assigned them. You will NOT agree on your marital history in large part.

IMO, What's important is going forward--what can you agree on NOW, and from now on? Let go of who did what to whom b/c all that really matters is that it not happen again and you only have a LITTLE control over that anyhow. Plus we do create self fulfilling prophecies.

Good luck,
j-

[eternaloptimist]

Hi 25 yrs MLC. Thank so much for all of your feedback. I need to read it over several more times to absorb all of your points. Overall, I do agree with just about everything you posted. I can take constructive criticism and I am capable of change. I really DO own my part in the breakdown of our marriage.

I think the problem here is that my H DOES NOT WANT to do anything to save this marriage. He's done. He doesn't want to put forth any effort. Why would he if he doesn't believe anything can change? I've asked him this question and he has said "because the past is the predictor of the future" when it comes to us. I'm trying not to lose hope, but today in MC I feel that I did. Our MC is not helping. Maybe we should stop going to see her?

Even if I sincerely do not bring up the EAs, to truly forgive him and not hold on to any of the hurt, it still seems like it won't make any difference or be enough for him to want to work on the marriage. I said in no uncertain terms today that I want to live in the same house, there's no pressure to work on the marriage, and have no conflict. He doesn't believe it. I guess b/c he still has conflict with me? I am so confused now.

You are right, I have glossed over my problems. But when talking to my H, I have apologized over and over and demonstrated over the past several years in words and deeds that I follow a budget and have not lied to him about money. I can't take back what I did, but HE is not capable of forgiving ME I guess. I think that is why he's been so angry for so long. He has not let go of his hurt.

As far as his grief, he put up walls to me and would not let me support him. I tried, but he just yelled and me and our son to the point that I felt I needed to withdraw too in order to protect our son.

It's so complicated that my head is literally spinning...

[Coach]

I think the problem here is that my H DOES NOT WANT to do anything to save this marriage. He's done. He doesn't want to put forth any effort. Why would he if he doesn't believe anything can change?

Eternal, It sounds like you don't think anything can change. You can do nothing to change your husband. Guess who has to be the one to change? Change some of your beliefs, stop mind-reading, and adopt a growth mindset. That is if you want to see things change. You can handle it.
Cheers
Coach

[25yearsmlc]

Changes in YOU + time, = change he'll believe in.

Then you can worry about what HE needs to do for you to feel safe. It's too much at once for him to feel unmotivated to work on the M AND have you "list" what he needs to do for your M when he's got a foot out the door.
You need to be a woman only a fool would leave.

No nagging, no pressure, NO R talks at all, no temperature taking of the R, "how you feeling NOW???" and questions that start with "Why" are usually going to elicit defensiveness so avoid them. No more "HOW COULD YOU?" b/c even though we've ALL done that, it does not help. Be upbeat, resigned to his choice but looking forward to YOUR life b/c you are interested and interesting in many things and have lots of GAL to do. But stop those questions--

That's a parental voice and you need to shut down the parental voice so he can hear his inner voice telling him "WTH are you doing to your son?" Don't shut down that voice with those parental tones. Let the old feelings of love he had, resurface. They will if you back off. He's doing a puzzle only he can solve so you cannot hover over him telling him where the pieces go. BACK OFF.

No more "talk" of change. Just BE DIFFERENT and say nothing. He'll notice. He won't SAY he noticed. But he will. Don't expect praise or acknowledgment either and recall that these changes MUST be changes you want to make for you.

If they are merely tactics to get him back, he'll see through them (he already will assume that's what they are so you have to show that these things you are changing are b/c you want to be the best person you can be ((the woman only a fool would leave....))

not b/c you are manipulating him or fooling him into coming back. Somehow you need to show him that M to you from now on, would be different b/c what you had in the M was NOT enough for him. Right or wrong, that's the truth. So again, your changes + time = something he may come to believe in. But your timeline must be adjusted so you don't think in a week's time you'll see BIG differences.

Check out MY time line and see what I mean. Patience. See Marianne Williamson's books on forgiveness and handling anger for some exercises and maybe "The Gift Of Change" so you can see that even life without him, will be good.

You are modelling for your son, how to handle a blow to the heart with dignity. Show him that your pain is not eternal or fatal. AND by doing so, you make it easier for your h to believe he will not have the sword of Damacles hanging over his head the rest of his life for having his emotional needs met by another woman. I know that hurts but why go over the pain you felt/feel?

You need movement forward now. I pray a lot. But not with a "to do" list for God. I stopped praying for "H BACK NOW" and began More of praying for guidance to know what to do and strength to do it. Only when I truly let h go, detaching lovingly and knowing I'd be fine either way, did things in MY life get significantly better. And yes, he began to awaken then. But I did not detach as a tactic, but a step in GAL and moving forward b/c limbo land is not healthy.

If God (or "the universe" depending on your belief system) does not have the restoration of M in mind for you, you can be sure that he has something cool just around the corner for you then. And there is free will in your h but the thing is, Either way, have faith that you will be fine no matter what. That belief will lead you to forgivenss and GAL and the 180's and all the rest.


(( j ))

PS stop apologizing if you have already done it. If he brings something up negative that IS valid or even partly valid, admit that if you had it to do over, you'd do it differently. Then move on to a diff topic. This shows that you"get it" without you owning all of it and shows it would be diff from now on. It is crucial that when YOU own something or admit or concede mishandling something on your end, DO NOT THEN BRING UP SOMETHING HE DID WRONG...that's keeping score and will lead to an argument and NOT get you any closer to your goal....

[aliveandkicking]

Changes in YOU + time, = change he'll believe in.

I want that on a bumper sticker!!!! Better yet, giant fridge magnet!

And I hope that didn't seem insensitive...it is just sooooo important.

[25yearsmlc]

A/K,
don't you just love math?

Seriously, EO/AK my little "mantras" helped ME to stay on message, so for me, to get me thru those rough times I needed my "sound bites". It was too easy to stay mired in the anger and that prevents us from feeling close, let alone reconciling. These things helped me Stay on message & THAT helped me get somewhere in the forgivness department.

EO, I found also that if I were contemplating something to do or say to H, I'd ask hard questions of myself FIRST about my TRUE motivation for it. If I found myself saying "well it'll Teach him a lesson" or "not my problem if it Shows h the consequences of his actions" I STOPPED IN MY TRACKS b/c that is NOT OUR JOB TO DO. It's God's, or Life's.

As my db coach said, "Life will show them the consequences of their actions" without us pointing to them with barely hidden glee ("See? I told you!")...been there, done that. If you are not coming from a place of love, you won't get far anyhow.

Setting healthy boundaries are important and it can be hard as he&% to know the diff between that and being prideful or punitive, but try to consider it. It's a fine line at times but it's also very easy to be painted as vindictive and that fuels their negatives and if it's also a tad true...it's a lot worse.

Most important, You won't be happy either. There were times my anger was consuming ME, ruining MY life, (not h's), and taking my focus off my children. I was not fully present for them b/c I was too pre-occupied with my pain or fuming or "Seeking justice" or the latest wrong h had done...etc. So I had to lose the anger FOR ME and my kids. Not h.. H didn't even have to know it, and it's not like I said "hey I forgive you" or "you're off the hook, all is well".

As for God, and how He gets thrown in the mess often wrongly being misused, let yourself model LOVE and FORGIVENESS which is, first off, the real message of His, and 2nd, a heck of a lot more likely to get a spouse back. If your h thinks you'll never get over it (as he has said to you) then he won't come back, PERIOD. No one wants to stay in hell for long. Even one they created....b/c they want absolution and freedom at some point they want their dang debt paid off. Plus you admit you own some stuff too.
I just don't know ANY WAS's who came back to their gamilies and stayed, out of guilt or shame. EVER. A Russian author once said, "when men feel guilt, they attack..." and that struck me as very insightful.

What does NOT forgiving cost? Example--Where I grew up we had a neighbor with an Army Colonel dad and educated stay at home mom. The dad had been a POW for 5 years and was a pretty cool guy. Definitely a role model hero type. But we ALL knew he had had an A...why? b/c His wife made sure we ALL knew of HER pain and suffering and yes it had been over for at least 2 years when I met them...geez....she would not let go of it. That was 23 years ago and not one of her kids (she had 5) is happily M to this day. And I do not blame the h, I blame the bitter wife. Why not divorce him if you wanted to be miserable? She made herself AND HIM miserable and passed on the legacy of victimhood and grudge-holding to her kids...I'll never forget that b/c otherwise she was a wonderful neighbor. Her h wrote a reference for my h way back when...and she put that down too. Minimized it. She never let her h forget that he was ALWAYS on thin ice with her...so he drank more and more, quietly, and died of cancer....and THEN she was a sad widow. (SIGH) Life lessons for us all...

EO, sorry for the digression/hijack. If you know that you cannot forgive a PA and your h had one, so be it. You know yourself. And with what my h and I have now been through, if you added an A to it, I'm not sure I'd stick around. But it IS a choice and my "issue" is with people who really won't choose. They say they want to stay M, but then they won't forgive either, and that has to be the worst choice possible.

Well hoping you find some peace this weekend! And if I didn't mention Williamson's books for handling anger, let me reiterate their importance to me. (Sorry if I'm repeating myself) I didn't see forgiveness as a kid. My parents fought loudly, and then retreated, until their next choreagraphed argument and nothing ever got resolved...not a great model. But they stayed married and at the very end, I could see that they loved each other underneath their pain and anger and festering wounds was a deeply passionate love. What a tragedy that it took the words "You have cancer & little time" for me to hear my father tell my mother that he loved her. And she finally allowed herself to forgive. It was THEN that I saw forgiveness, begrudgingly given, and it was almost too late.

Anyhow, I put the Williamson CD/ book "Return to Love" on my Ipod -and did my "anger walks" (Now referred to as "Power Walks") for hours almost every night so I could get it into my head. Where the head goes, the heart will follow and eventually, it did. (Yeah I like that mantra too!)

She also wrote, with Wayne Dyer, "Advancing Your spirit" or something like that, about women over 40 and where we are in our life and how it can be the MOST productive joyful time in our lives. I LOVE IT SO FAR --but I skimmed some of Dyer's stuff to get to hers. Maybe not fair, but so what?

Oh, AK, have you checked out K4's today? Guess we're all Praying that his c gets somewhere...please! Seriously...

J-