Perhaps if you think of negotiation and compromise, if you get D papers then barter with the legal separation. It sounds like a way to allow you both to have some time to think while taking care of everyone's rights legally. That way no one will feel they have to watch over their own shoulder and can relax to focus on what is important. The important goal at this point in DB would be getting her and yourself to the point of working on the M together. Until then, you do your part. Figure out what takes care of everyone concerned amicably, what is a little give and take or maybe more giving - sometimes M requiring one partner to do more of the giving for a time and then at other times one gets to do the taking. It should flow back and forth in order to help meet each others' needs. Having said that, you didn't hear me use any clingy notions - just a straightforward plan to cover everyone's interests esp the kids. (Kids by the way, only need to know who is taking care of them, where will they sleep, and who takes care of what) If you both can do meet these needs they will be secure. They don't understand adult stuff and don't need to know. Until (and hopefully not) there is an actual D they don't need to know much it will only upset them. By the way, did she tell you she was consulting a lawyer? Did you ask her when? and how it went if she did? That might help you know what she really thinks and when to make your presentation if you still want to. I idea is to allow for exchange of information calmly without using it for a battle ground verbally or emotionally. If she hasn't acted on setting an appointment, just let it go. If she has set one up or completed a consultation, she will probably tell you when to expect papers. I think the more information you have ahead of time the better prepared you can be. If you need to be emotional use this post to journal.That way you get it out without aiming at her. This is an overwhelming time, anything you can do to bring your stress level down work on it. If you know what she likes to do to relax, suggest it to her.
She sent me a text yesterday morning saying "Just so you know, I will be meeting with the lawyer next week. I will let you know after I talk to her."
I hadn't said or asked her anything about the D, lawyers, etc. This just came out of the blue. I think (though sometimes I think too much)that because she has requested the D so many times that she feels the need to let me know that this time she is serious.
I believe that she is serious. I'm just not 100% positive that it is what she really wants in the long run. It's ironic that my being distant and uninvolved is what started the whole thing, and now I'm having the greatest difficulty being detached.
Ok, now you know something that you can deal with. Usually the initial consultation is info finding for the lawyer to let the person know what will happen, make it clear why they are there, etc. very concrete. It can be helpful to have the info. it also makes it very real and if you arent' prepared - scared! Unfortunately, lawyers are also good at moving things along, on the other hand they are also good at knowing if the person is on a fishing expedition or not.
So have you decided how you will deal with this? Whether or not you think it is good for her or just a thing she is doing... you do not get to control her. You can convince her by your behavior and detached but caring comments how you feel without crowding her. DId you respond to the text? How about something like," got your message,hope you find out what you need to know. Call me if you want to talk." or "got your message, let's talk afterwards, have some ideas of my own to help with the situation." It may peek her curiosity and let her know you are willing to discuss things openly.
Let me know what you decide. And again, use this site to learn and journal.
My only response was "okay." I was really upset and didn't know what to do. While it was kind crappy to get that via text message, it turned out better in the long run since I was able to respond without emotion reading all over my face.
I probably should have responded as you suggested, but at that moment, I really think that speaking to her would have been a bad idea as I was immediately upset. Luckily, she didn't need to say that.
The weird thing is that the lawyer is a friend of mine's wife. It took everything I had not to call my friend up. But no good would come from dragging him into the middle of it.
One of the hardest things for me is to not crowd her. She has convinced herself that she wants this and I know she will go through with it. I am already focusing myself to shift into the "last resort" method when needed. If it turns out that I don't have to, then great. In the meantime, I'm working through the rest of the DB technique: setting my goals, changing what I can about myself, giving her the space to think, etc. I am trying to stay positive and upbeat, and saving my "true" reactions for people dissociated with her.
Just as an observer, I think you nailed it in a earlier post. You really didn't go through a separation the first time. It makes a huge difference IMO, and in my experience. This is an opportunity for the WAW to feel what it REALLY means to 'be separated' and to be a 'single parent'. It's those two realization that snapped my ex out of her comatose state. What they perceive is nothing like what they actually experience during a separation. Reality shows it's ugly face. It takes time for them to come to this realization that it's not exactly what they envisioned, but it will dawn on them eventually.
Some on here may not agree with the separation part and will rationalize that it causes more harm then good. I'm sure not all situations are changed by a separation, but mine most definitely was. The problem with me was I no longer desired a relationship with her when she finally 'came out of it' 3 years later. That's the ironic part... the pursuer becoming the pursued. I didn't stay focused on wining her back because I was enjoying finding myself again... weird, but it happens. I'm probably a horrible endorsement for DB, but it's only because I didn't hold up my part of the bargain. I do think it can work if you can hold on long enough.
Anyway, moral of the story is it's never over till YOU say it's over. Hang in there!
"It is curious that physical courage should be so common in the world and moral courage so rare." -Mark Twain
Good for you to not respond right away. Email and texting help to communicate without having all the emotions visible. Good and bad thing -but right now it has given you time to think about yourself, your goals and what your next step might be.
Focus on the M and resist the temptation to focus on reacting to whatever she says or does. DB book also reminds us that during this time not to believe everything you see and only half of what you hear. But there is a tendency in M to decompensate emotionally into arguments and behavior that is retaliatory vs supportive or problem solving. That is where we all get into trouble.
Will check in later - I have to go to work - its my long day into the night -day. So many problems, so little time to solve them. Take a deep breath and do what you can. It helps me a lot to think about the question, "how can I communicate I love and communicate what I want".
Really deciding on my next step has a lot to do with her next step. However, I think that even if she does not file (though I'm pretty sure that she will), I will request the separation anyway. I really think it is what we need.
One thing that I read in the book that really hit home with me about her is how Michelle says that you cannot just sit around and wait for your feelings to change, because they never will that way. I really think that is where she is at right now. I think for the past 3 years she has been waiting for some switch inside of her to flip and for her to fall back "in love." Since it never happened she thinks that it wont and can't. Part of the reason is because I think that if I am in her presence when something negative happens, even if that negative thing has nothing to do with me, it reminds her of the fact that she isn't "in love" and makes those grasses all that much greener. I think if I can physically distance myself so that I'm not bumbling around every time something negative happens, she will have to deal with the situation without honing on me as being the cause.
That isn't to say that things are never my fault, but it is as if no matter what I do to change something, she just moves on to the next. It's almost as if there is a comfort in being able to push off the negativeness in her life on me.
Today was a prime example. She had to be somewhere this morning so I got the kids up, got them dressed, gave them breakfast, etc. In the meantime one of our dogs, who never does this, took a long relief on the new carpet. I started cleaning it immediately and she called to make sure everything was okay. I wasn't going to even tell her what happened, but I could tell the kids were going to tell everyone they could what happened (they're five and this was exciting stuff!), so I told her. She got mad and asked me why I didn't take the dogs out earlier. I explained that I was getting the kids ready, etc. and didn't get chance and since I took them out so late last night...
Well, she had to go. I haven't heard from her since. She got off at noon and it is now one. Usually she calls to at least ask if the kids got to school okay. I called her, but no answer.
So...I suppose I'm in trouble. I'm keeping calm though. Things like that happen. I cleaned it up and took care of business and life goes on. Hopefully, she wont blow this up into something more serious.
Okay, so I finally get a hold of her and she said she didn't hear the phone because she was ins ide getting lunch. Might be true. We talked a bit about the dog and she wanted me to try to set up an appointment with the vet (dog doesn't usually have accidents and has put on a lot of weight, drinking a lot more water than usual, etc.). She told me to get an appointment today. I asked if we couldn't get in if tomorrow would be okay and she said to try for today and if it had to be tomorrow then try to get it for after 4. The kids get off of school at 3, so I suppose that was her reasoning.
I called the vet and set an appointment at 4. She said she was going to call her mom and have her watch the kids because she wanted to go too. Fine. Then she came home and check the account for some money she is expecting to come in today. There was an error and she will not have the money for a couple of weeks. She was fuming and then got glum. I asked her what happened and she explained it to me and then left to go pick up the kids. I suppose she is going to drop them off at her parents house and come back for the dog. I don't know.
But...
I showed concern by asking her what happened
and then I left it alone and gave her her space. There are no bills due at this moment, so her urgency gets my brain working. Regardless, there's nothing I can do for her now except give her some space.
While I listed the reasons for the separation above, and I also have come to the conclusion that it is something that needs to be done regardless of her choice with the filing, can anyone give me a nudge in the right direction as far as to whether I should just sit tight and wait for her or if I should suggest the separation now? If I wait until she files it could look exactly like it is-a last ditch effort. Since I am the one usually trying to stop her, it might just be "another attempt" that will fail. If I initiate it, it may take her off guard and knock her out of her slump. Then again, it may just push her on her way to D. There's the chance that speaking to the lawyer might "scare" her with the finality of the situation. But I really think that she has this in her head as her only option. My thought was that if I just told her that I could not live like this, with all of this hanging over my head, and I was leaving it would definitely force a different perspective. However, it might also set a weird sort of competitive tone that I don't want either. So far, what she had laid out as far as how she would like to see things go, especially with the kids, seems more than fair, and if it ends with a D, the last thing I want is things to turn ugly in that respect.
So many questions, so little time. As far as when to set your proposal in motion, you suggested two ways of looking at it which means that you have to decided what the usual pattern is - what happens most often, and a 180 would come from that point. I do think it is important to see if she keeps the appointment and gets information. It does help one to see the reality of things. Your comment about telling her that you could not live this way may be perceived as pursuing behavior and a definite no-no. Setting limits/goals is different.
I have another comment about hearing you refer to her as having"fallen out of love with you". Love is a feeling and hence it is changeable. Marriage is a commitment, a decision to be with a person no matter what happens. There are no guarantees about what happens in life, it is a matter of maturity and values and responsibility. Our current world does not support this view. I assume you agree with this thinking or you wouldn't be here and reading Michelle's book.
Have you set goals beyond the separation? I noticed you are to be congratulated for some positive attitudes and 180 comments to your wife. Forget worrying about blame - if you know it isn't your fault - then don't dwell on what she says. I also agree that if she is not with you and bad things happen, she will become clearer about it not being your fault. My H often blamed his poor choices and behavior on me - I was glad to see that when I got out of the way it still happened. Now that he can see that it is his problem he is trying to do something about it. He still blames for everything else but I am sure that will either change with time as he addresses his own issues or it won't be an issue anymore. I let it in one ear and out the other now.
I was walking out the door to go pick up some groceries and she said that we needed to talk. So I agreed and she said that she didn't know what was going on with me doing all these things around the house and she didn't want me to think that it could fix anything. I said that I was doing what I was doing because it needed to be done. I didn't think that it was going to fix anything.
Then she asked how we should divide things up. I asked her if she met with the lawyer and she said no, that she told me that she would tell me first. I asked if she was going to see the lawyer tomorrow and she said she was waiting for a call back to see. I said okay, but when she speaks to the lawyer we can talk about it then. She asked me if I was going to stay at the house after the divorce and I told her no, that I didn't think I could do that. She asked if I was going to move out right away or wait until it was finalized. I told her that I wasn't sure, but I wasn't going to make any decisions until I had a lawyer. She told me everything that she had spoken to the lawyer about and though it seemed fair I told her that I wasn't a lawyer and I would need to have an attorney look into anything like that. I told her that I didn't think that she would try to screw me, but I didn't trust the legal system as a whole and I would need to make sure that my rights and interests were completely protected, especially in regards to the kids. She said that was fine. Then she stood there a second and finally asked "Is there anything else you want to ask me?" and I mustered up everything I could and said "No, I think until we talk to lawyers there really isn't a whole lot we can do in that respect."
After that I went to the grocery store. I then went to my mom's and allowed myself to get all upset. I composed myself and came home. I think she's asleep now, but I'm not sure.
She seemed a little taken back by how laid back and accepting I was with what she had to say. I really think she was expecting me to break down and either get angry and start being an idiot, or get all weepy and sad. Inside I was all of the above, but outside I was cool and collected. I didn't get nervous and start to fumble around for words, I didn't suggest the separation, and I didn't beg her to give it another try.
I did lay the ground work for the legal separation by talking about my concerns with the legal system and wanting to make sure everything was on the up and up for the long term. Anything we sign now will affect us for the next 13 years at least, and I want to be sure that what seems okay for now isn't going to come back and haunt us five years down the road.
Believe me when I tell you, that was the hardest conversation I ever had in my life. Not because of what was being said, but my need to suck it up and not let out the overwhelming emotions that were building up inside. I lucked out that I was on my way out the door anyway, so I didn't feel trapped with no escape or appear to be fleeing.
I really got the feeling that on some level she was almost trying to use me to verify her decision. Not that I would agree with it, but by flipping out in some way to help her feel that it truly is the best course of action. I think I might have jarred her a bit by not reacting how she expected. I don't think its enough to stop her from meeting with the attorney, but I do think it was enough to derail her thoughts a bit.
I didn't bring up the separation because I figured that might come across as a sort of plea to stop the divorce and I can't afford to do that right now. I think that what I will do is wait for her to file before I bring that up. In the meantime, I'm going to get in touch with an attorney myself tomorrow and get some general info on what I need to be doing.
Kassie-thanks for your support so far. It's really good to get an unbiased perspective.
Also, I agree completely with you in regards to the "in love" stuff. I got the "I love you but I'm not IN love with you" speech about three years back. Even then, before I ever even heard of the DB books, I said that was just an odd thing to say. I think that people fall in and out of love throughout their relationship, and if she thinks that she will never fall "out of love" with someone else, she's in for a pretty miserable ride. That doesn't mean that those words are meaningless or that they shouldn't be taken seriously, but I don't think most people understand them when they say them or when they hear them. I didn't for a long time, and look where I'm at now.
When she said that she was saying that something crucial was lacking on her end and that she had a hard time seeing me in the role of husband. I, of course, just took it to mean that she didn't have romantic feelings towards me (which is part of it, but not the core issue).
I also agree with you as far as us living in a society that says it's okay to disregard your responsibilities and just jump after the next thing. I believe that divorce is too easy. You can even download forms off the internet. I'm not kidding. It's one thing to turn your back on your wedding vows, but when children are involved, I feel that when you have children you make a decision to start a family and it is your duty to fulfill the obligations of that decision. However, she has said in the past that this is better for the kids because they deserve a mother who is not miserable and bitter. The funny thing is, I couldn't agree more. But I really don't think choosing to divorce is proper choice in that instance. The proper choice is to not be bitter and miserable. I know it is easier said than done. However, I believe that a stable family offers a safe and secure place for childhood and it is very difficult (though not impossible) for a blended or single-parent family to offer the same full experience. I have told her that in the past, but I have stopped because A)It seems like whining and B)I don't want to seem like I am using the kids to martyr my point.
