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#1673346 - 12/14/08 05:52 PM Listening and Learning
VeronicaV Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/08
Posts: 1485
I think this is my fourth thread.

Carlos - Thank you so much for your thoughtful post. I really want to give it the response it deserves and I will, but there is a lot there for me to digest.

The weather here is bad so my riding lesson got cancelled again, puts a damper on my run, too.

Fighting to find PMA today, fighting to keep busy and distracted. Always fighting...

SMW - I practice Employment law and ERISA (employee benefits law).


Edited by Bettou (12/14/08 05:56 PM)
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VV:41

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#1673393 - 12/14/08 07:25 PM Re: Listening and Learning [Re: VeronicaV]
VeronicaV Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/08
Posts: 1485
Carlos,

I have done some thinking about some of what you have said. Here are a few preliminary thoughts.

1. You are correct that I approach things like a lawyer and that probably is not going to work very well in a marriage, or in saving one or letting one go, for that matter.

2. My trailer is definitely still hitched to H's wagon and that is certainly contributing to the rollercoaster ride. But, I have more than one trailer.

You said:
"[w]hen you wait to have your value defined or determined by someone that lives in his own confusion, you will continue to stumble. Stop that. Consider how much you have accomplished - and how much you bring into the lives of others (even strangers on this site) and value yourself enough to know that detaching from you H is an act of love for both you and your H. Detachment gives you the gift of taking care of you - and detaching gives him the gift of having to deal with his own issues so he can grow...and if he doesn't...you will still be in a healthy, strong, empowered place."

First, thank you for that. Second, I do not derive my sense of value from H. I do not have a self-esteem problem and I do realize what I bring to this world. I think my problem is that I cannot truly let him go.

I am working very hard to sort out why this is the case. Some have suggested co-dependence, but from what I have read about it, I am not co-dependent. I think Puppy called it being enmeshed. That sounds a little more like it but it still does not resonate in my gut as the reason.

Here is my struggle: though I know I can be happy without H in my life, it will take time and I have to grieve, but I will be happy again. I know I am a whole person all by myself. I know I am strong and can accomplish things. But despite all of that, he is the person with whom I want, over all others, to share my life. There is a bond that grew between us when that was a mutual feeling and it is that bond that keeps me from wanting to detach.

Maybe that's what the truth is, maybe I just simply do not want to detach. I am not saying I want to hurt and be sad. But just because he wants out, does not mean that I want out. And in my mind, detaching is getting out.

This is heady stuff, Carlos. You have given me a lot to process. Thank you for that and taking the time to post all of this to me.

Beth
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#1673399 - 12/14/08 07:30 PM Re: Listening and Learning [Re: VeronicaV]
AnotherNightmare Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 278
Loc: PA
Hi Beth,

Having followed all of your threads, I can tell that you are great at GAL and also PMA as long as your feelings for your H do not get in the way. The one thing - and Carlos said it much better than I will ever be able to say it - you need to accomplish is detachment. I repeat what techguy once told me:

The one who cares the least about the M is in control.

From what you are writing you are not there yet. You still care a lot about your M and your H. And I know it is a lot easier if there is something else you can devote all your love to. Unfortunately, noone can tell you when it will happen, and I am not sure I would do anything differently than you to get there in your situation.

Keep up the good work and keep detachment in your mind more than anything else.

AN
_________________________
M43 W45, M17
S9 D6
Bomb: 11/11/08
EA: 10/26-12/31/08 ?
Retrouvaille: 2/13-2/15/09
Healed, but still heading for D
My situation

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#1673403 - 12/14/08 07:39 PM Re: Listening and Learning [Re: AnotherNightmare]
VeronicaV Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/08
Posts: 1485
AN,

Thank you for that. I feel a lot of pressure to detach, from myself I mean. I guess it is not something that can be rushed and you made me realize that with your post.

I am glad it comes across to others that I am doing things for myself, I really am. I need more of a social life, to be sure.

Thanks again.

Beth
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VV:41

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#1673413 - 12/14/08 08:04 PM Re: Listening and Learning [Re: VeronicaV]
healthydad Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 1425
Loc: California
Hi Beth,

"I do not derive my sense of value from H. I do not have a self-esteem problem and I do realize what I bring to this world. I think my problem is that I cannot truly let him go."

Sorry - I didn't mean to suggest sense of value in terms of self-esteem - rather, I meant sense of value in terms of happiness...Like you, I don't have a self-esteem problem - and don't have much in the way of security/insecurity issues - but...and here was the big revelation for me...I had no idea just how much of who I had become was intertwined with my W, my expectations of my wife, and my frustrations with her and myself (which grow out of those unfulfilled expectations). For me, a sense of value isn't about self-esteem but about getting through an occluded sense of self.

"I am working very hard to sort out why this is the case. Some have suggested co-dependence, but from what I have read about it, I am not co-dependent. I think Puppy called it being enmeshed. That sounds a little more like it but it still does not resonate in my gut as the reason."

I agree with Puppy - it is about being enmeshed. Early in my sitch, I also went into the co-dependence angle - but didn't find it fit. But I did realize that before being with my W, I enjoyed being on my own and being independent...and I don't know how or why I lost that, but I did. I think it's just the reality of a relationship (especially a troubled relationship) that we lose ourselves to an extent when we become too defined by our enmeshed personality - rather than the independent personality we first brought into the relationship.

What ever happened with the rings, btw?

I finally took mine off after my W moved out...and I then realized that having it on just made me look at it too much - and think too much about what I wished for with her - rather than what I should be doing in the moment...even when doing something as simple as going out to dinner with a friend...the ring added a presence there that started to feel more and more like an intrusion...but it took me a long time to get there and accept that. All of this stuff takes time - especially the process of detachment - which was/is completely contrary to my "fix it", "solve it", "understand it", "tackle the impossible" way of being. That mindset served me well through graduate school...but it didn't do much for me in my M...so now I'm a student of a different kind.
_________________________
Me:39
S3,S13

"We consent to live like sheep." W.H. Auden

On my own
Separation #4

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#1673420 - 12/14/08 08:14 PM Re: Listening and Learning [Re: healthydad]
VeronicaV Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/08
Posts: 1485
Carlos,

I think you hit the nail on the head. I think I had no idea how intertwined my sense of self had become with H and the couple. That strikes a chord with me. I think that is the crux of my struggle. Detaching feels like excoriating myself and it should not. It should be sad and difficult, but I should not feel as though I am losing a part of myself.

Rings are currently still on finger. It caused me more pain to have them off. I am trying to take that day-by-day.

I do recognize that I am the only one in my way. I also recognize that if I am to reconcile with H, as I so much desire, and not end up right back here, I do have to redevelop my own, independent sense of self.

The rain has eased, so I am off.

Thanks for this discussion and your insight. It really helps me focus my thinking.

Beth
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#1673447 - 12/14/08 08:51 PM Re: Listening and Learning [Re: VeronicaV]
Tawnya Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2556
Loc: NC
{{{{{Beth}}}}}}}} It sounds like you are having a down day, so I am here to try to hug it away..not that I can, but I would if I could \:\)

So what did you do with your mom this weekend?? I hope you did or are doing something fun for you \:\)

Hugs my dear friend

Tawnya
_________________________
Me:39
H:40
D18/S12
M20/T21
Bomb 10/11/08
One
Two
Three
Four



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#1673470 - 12/14/08 09:33 PM Re: Listening and Learning [Re: Tawnya]
VeronicaV Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/08
Posts: 1485
Tawnya,

Thanks for the hugs. My mom and I did some shopping, rented some movies, had dinner. I am so glad she is here.

This weekend has been tough, I have been sad a lot. My mom is convinced it is because H is out of town and that the holidays are approaching.

I suspect she may be on to something. I know I am so tired of thinking about it. So, tonight, I am trying to take a break from the endless analyzing that I put myself through.

I am just trying to stay in the present moment and find a few things to be happy about, like my mom's company, a nice warm house, good food and friends like you and the others I have here.

I am just asking myself to let that be enough for tonight.

Beth
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#1673508 - 12/14/08 10:56 PM Re: Listening and Learning [Re: VeronicaV]
Tawnya Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2556
Loc: NC
Beth..I certainly hope it is enough..I'm so glad your mom is there with you too..

You know, I don't know that I said it in my "sitch recap" of Friday night (the novella LOL)..but hub and OW are traveling to MA and then to NY to see her mother..I totally thought of YOU when he said NY..I even asked if they were going to like see shows or something..and he said "no..it's not NYC that we are going to"..but I couldn't believe it after you had talked about that this weekend..

Check in and let us know how you are! Glad you got some "retail therapy" in..that's always fun..well usually..not as much fun the closer to Christmas with the 800000 people shopping ;\)

Tawnya
_________________________
Me:39
H:40
D18/S12
M20/T21
Bomb 10/11/08
One
Two
Three
Four



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#1674172 - 12/15/08 07:46 PM Re: Listening and Learning [Re: Tawnya]
healthydad Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 1425
Loc: California
Hi Beth:

I hope the time off gave you some much needed and deserved inner peace.

When my W moved out at the beginning of November - and as Thanksgiving approached - I started to fall apart a bit...and some of the best advice I got was just to go through the day as if it were just another day...not make more of it than I had to, but just accept it as another day...and not the last Thanksgiving. It was hard to imagine adopting that kind of mindset but it did surprise me how doing so helped. Our hearts listen to our minds much more than I ever realized.

Hugs,
Carlos
_________________________
Me:39
S3,S13

"We consent to live like sheep." W.H. Auden

On my own
Separation #4

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