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Quoting Jamesjohn:
How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?


Not sure at all. I feel like I'm "riding the wave", never knowing what will come next. It is very stressful.



Quoting Jamesjohn:
How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?


As my H's behavior has worsened and worsened, I think I am using the past to predict future (negative) behavior. OTOH, I also have been thinking a lot about the last time H left me and returned. I thought it was completely over and proceeded with my life "as if" it was. I built a new life for myself, and H began pursuing me during that time. I see that it happened once before, and I think it could again (if his mental health issues are resolved).



Quoting Jamesjohn:
How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?


I think if I were a third party, I would think I was crazy for having any hope of saving the M. I would be highly offended at how H had treated me and DD. Most third party people also tell me how life will be so much better when I meet a different man, move on, etc.




Quoting Jamesjohn:
If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?!


I would post to be careful, but also follow through with the DR process as it looks like a very healing thing to do personally, and it couldn't hurt the M either.


Quoting Jamesjohn:
If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?


H would be a whole person, not mentally ill, able to feel his feelings, and yet not be lost in them. He would see the importance of his role in the family, and take it on with pride. I would be more open, not have walls up in my eyes because of fear of being left again. I would be able to express my needs without being critical. He would also express his needs/wants/plans. We would have forward motion emotionally, physically, and financially.

Quoting Jamesjohn:
If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?


He is mentally ill. He is re-enacting patterns of projecting emotions onto people and then running away from them, rather than looking at himself. He is having a MLC. He was suffering under the weight of the household needs, and finally "cracked". He is at a level of desperation in his life where he needs to reach out to something, or he feels he may come apart at the seams. He desperately needs to feel good about himself and not like a failure. He desperately needs to feel like a respectable person. He needs to force away the people who remind him of his stresses, failings, problems.


Quoting Jamesjohn:
What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?


Definitely in terms of how I've neglected myself and become "uber-servant", instead of a whole, healthy person. I relate to the poster who talked about no longer remembering how to have fun. I have fun with my dd, and also with my H, but not FUN for myself. Life became too much about routine and responsibility and troubles.

I need to understand more about the dance of being critical vs. making your needs known and asking for what you want. DH always insisted I was too critical and controlling. Yet, it seemed like everything was falling down around my ears and I was getting nothing I wanted. I need to learn more about that, and especially how I'm responsible for that dance.

Quoting Jamesjohn:
What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?!


The way to reach my husband. Something that is there, but not known yet.


Quoting Jamesjohn:
What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?


Healed, loving, whole. Healthy boundaries. Adequate financial supply. Family intact and staying that way. H and I connected, interacting as people who love each other and are stearing the family ship together.

Quoting Jamesjohn:
If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?


I really related to the advice in DR about knowing when to approach your mate. I am afraid I approached at all of the wrong times, and that set us up for failure. I'd definitely "pick my battles" and try to talk at a time that was good for him.

I would be more physically nurturing, and get to bed earlier in hopes of connecting sexually. (Another timing issue for us that really hurt things.)

I see us spending more time together as a couple, if we were a new one, starting from scratch. We rarely did ANYTHING to nurture OUR relationship, and I see that it is essential.

And, of course, it would help if DH didn't think God talks to him constantly and told him to leave me.

On that note though, I would be much more open to being in a spiritual community and nurturing our family and relationship through that. (As long as it wasn't too crazy of a place -- have issues with that.)



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Quote:

Got any ideas on where to start this? What are some of your hobbies or interests? Things you've always wanted to do, but have just never taken the time for?


I'm trying to get Hubby to keep his word about letting me get back into real estate sales which I was getting started in when his Sarcoid was discovered as being out of remission & attacking his bones...

we had several arguements when I was in the biz because he didn't take the time to listen to what I was trying to explain to him about what I needed for biz supplies

& I admit that while I was going to the classes I not realising it was neglectful of his needs

& I found out Oct 30th 2002 we had misunderstandings over why I was in the living room on the futon

(I thought by studying there I wouldn't be bothering him with all of my notes spread out, & I'd end up falling to sleep too manytimes, he thought that I didn't want to be with him & instead of waking me up to come to bed he turned to internet porn then when things went to MLC for him he turned to the Owhore from the job)

I asked Hubby if he meant it that I could go back into the real estate sales biz & he said yes...

I told him that we'll need to really sit down & talk about all that is involved because I don't want to have the same problems that we had before...

I also told him that we can't talk about it here because I really hate this house & he has the tendancy to watch the tv when we talk...

I told him to pick the steakhouse restaurant with NO TV & that I would like for him to participate in the discussion by asking questions about what I'm saying
& that way I'll know if he's understanding what I'm meaning & can clarify things at our meeting...

at the time I asked him this he agreed
but that was in mid-June
& as of yet He's not made the arrangements to pick me up for our talk

I'm trying not to be nagging about it,
& have only verbally mentioned it twice in passing & 2 emails...

In the meantime I'm taking a nail class
so that I can learn how to do them for a small income of my own
& have only 5 more classes to finish up I think...

I don't want Hubby to know about the class
because if he thinks I've got an income of my own
then he may cut down on the tiny bit which he does now give
no sense in letting him have additional money to blow on his "friends"
& I can use the spare change to get a few things that I've been putting off because they were "not necessities"...

I did splurge & have ordered
2 Belly Dancing Instruction cd sets,
good exercise to tone up where I've lost the weight but am a bit flabby in the tummy area...
I did reach my goal weight of 135lbs,
althou the last few pant sizes
I would have preferred to lose gradually
instead of the drastic "unable to eat a thing" diet
which I ended up on...

I do have the Season Pass to 6 Flags
but am actually finding it hard to get there because people seem to be uninterested in going on rides
- when did everyone get too old to go to an amusement park?
Even my son isn't too keen on the idea of going, but I think thats more that he's not interested in hangging out with his mom
- it's just not too fun going to an amusement park by myself

While I'm waiting for my dvd's to get here
I'm going thru the house as best as I can & slowly rearranging things...
I'm having to wait for my son to get here on the weekends & co-operate to get the furniture moved...
it's a bit frustrating to me because before the car accident I'd be able to do more
& would've had the entire house moved around
& been immediately working 60 hrs a week
so that I wouldn't be home to think about my empty bed,
but I'm not able to do the CNA work that I use to be able to do
one reason that this is just soo depressing to me,
if this had happened before the car accident I'd not be feeling so down
& I'd feel that I had a bit more control over my own life
right now I sort of feel that he's got all of the control
not just with his MLC but with everything else too

I am slowly seeing changes in me that needed to be made
I also see changes in the apartment which is a releif to some point but frustratingly slow
so I guess the lesson there is to learn even more patience
I do see baby steps homeward but then Hubby started running away when I sent him an LRT email,
I found out this month that Hubby told the people on the job that he's living home agian -
so it was on his mind to move back home in april/may/1st week of June,
but poor timing on my part with the LRT email sent him back to OWhore & drinking buddies...

so now I'm trying to undo & coax him back to feeling safe coming home (after I sent the email I just realised that he may have Abandonment issues from his childhood & the email just made things worse on me)

I'm doing pretty well with NO PRESSURE to Come Home or R Talk...
I'm trying to be as understanding as possible with Hubby's Experimentations & dabbling,
the fact that he's NEVER said the D word
& the fact that he's trying to include me a bit in his experimentation does lead me to feel that he's got it somewhere in his head & heart to eventually come home...
the problem is that I'm feeling anxious
as it is getting closer to the 1 yr mark

& due to my email,
we're backslid from where we were in May
where he was staying here overnites alot more
& I knew that he was going to sleep at his mom's house
rather than OWhore's most of the time that he wasn't here overnite
I was calmer then,
I'm trying to not be anxious now
but for some reason I'm really feeling the need to have to take the celexa which I'd been off of for a good while, it's not really doing it's job yet but it does take a while to get into the system...

I was a bit disappointed in myself for having to go back onto the celexa
but the reality is that this is a bit much for me
& it's better to go back onto it
than to let myself really get overly emotional as each day passes

I am much better than I was when this first started
I've not had a crying spell in a while
& when they do happen I found that they were much shorter
so althou I'm needing the celexa now -
to hopefully enable me to start getting back to a normal sleep schedule
I am much stronger than I was in Oct 2002
I've just got to get this anxiety under control
so that I can get back to DBing & work on myself as well

I'm very grateful for this forum
& this DR 7 Step BootCamp is perfect timing for me
it's helping to get me back on track
due to the anxiety I was feeling a bit lost
which made more anxiety because
I couldn't focus on what I should be doing to get back on track to DBing correctly

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*How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?

I used to be very negative about the future because my H has always believed that once you leave a marriage, you can never go back. But now l focus on the fact that he also said he would never get married, until he met me. So attitudes and opinions can be changed!

*How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?

As l said above, now l try to look at the future as a blank page waiting to be written.

*How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?

Unfortunately, when friends have been in similar situations, l have told them to let go and just move on. Of course they only involved short term relationships and not a ten year marriage! I think l would tell myself to get on and build a new life without H but leave the door open, if my heart was still with him.

*If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?

That he is hurt, confused and scared. The way l was when 1 had post-natal depression made me spiteful, jealous and bitter. After two years of abuse, H felt that this was the real me but l know it wasn't. H sees all my changes as temporary ways to win him back. He feels guilty for leaving his son, and tries to dismiss any feelings he has for me to justify leaving. H tries to push buttons that would have previously caused a screaming match. If l were to "bite" he could console himself that l hadn't changed and he was right to leave. Also l fear that he may think l'm back to being my happy old self because he has left. He may feel that we are better off apart, because him leaving snapped me out of my depression well and truly! Therefore, subconsciously, he may think that it was him that caused me to be so unhappy.

*If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?

We would never take each other for granted. I would not lose my identity again. We would both have our own lives and social networks, and the time we spent together would be because we wanted to, not because we had nothing better to do! I would not analyze every tiny thing that he said or did. I would let the small stuff slide and let him know how much he was wanted, needed and loved!

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Hi JJ

Thanks for the feedback on my earlier post,
I'm now going to try to answer these questions which you've put here for us to ponder...

Quote:

How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?



Haven't got the slightest clue but...
Praying for God to direct things as they shoud go,
but as well as I knew my husband
this alien stranger is totally out of charcter
& every day there are soo many changes happening
that I can't keep up with them all...
I pray, I watch, I pray some more
because I don't have a clue as to what's going to happen next!

Quote:

How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?



I think that basically somewhere inside the alien is my sweet kinda cute guy
& that althou he's actting crazy now he will return...
in the meantime I'm looking more at the past to see where
corrections can be made in my behavior to change his in the present & future...
we do have some communication problems which need to be worked on...
one of my cheeseless tunnels was to Rant & Rave, or do the Broken Record...
now I'm using picture emails,
keeping requests shorter & thanking him when he's done them
I'm making a real effort to be calm when I am upset...
even when I had to make several calls to make my point July 3rd
I was calm when I demanded that he put some money into the account...
it worked I got almost all that I asked for

I am making more note of what does work now
& am using those results to figure out how I should proceed

Quote:

How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?


I answered this in an earlier post...
I feel beat up on by those who don't have a clue as to what I'm trying to do...
Family & Friends alike are all upset with me for putting up with this BS, even my MIL!
There are several men who are just waiting for the day that I'm tired & give up...
No one seems to understand...
"Til Death Do Us Part... etc" means just that to me!
I will NOT Divorce Hubby even thou I've got scriptural grounds to do so...
I told the lawyer that I consulted with
that as nice as he was & helpful with information
I hope that I never see him again,
because if I do that means that Hubby's filed for D

Quote:

If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?!


I'm not sure - right now I'm NOT Detached enough to be able to look at it from the outside -
but that might be the advice which I give to myself
to work on detaching from the problems & get a life,
but since Hubby does have abandonment issues
figure a way to reassure him that I'm here for him when he needs to feel safe or is ready to come home...
I'm trying to take my advice
but it's a bit difficult right now,
I've started taking the celexa Rx
to help calm the anxiety that I've been feeling this past mth & 1/2
I do think that once it kicks in
& I'm not so anxious I'll be better able to follow the advice...

Note to Others - I Use to Really Have a Problem & Downed Myself for Needing the Rx,
but Really if Your Dr Suggests Taking an Rx...
DON"T FEEL BAD!
No it's Not a Miracle
& Won't Keep You From getting a Bit Down...
BUT IT DOES HELP -
Especially when you get that truely can't face the world depression
which will overwhelm from time to time

Once you get past the Initial Shock Stage
you will find that you can deal with life without it
then if you feel things about to get out of control with your emotions
you can always get back on it until you get over that hump

Quote:

If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?



I'm not sure yet,
I'll have to answer that in a later post while I think about it -
there's alot of past right now
& even the new MLC crap which seems to pop up
every day is a bit overwhelming at the moment,
All the Bad - Past & Present is Too in my Face

In fact I'm going to end this post
& think a bit more on the rest of the questions
& come back later to answer the rest of the questions...

Thank you for this Forum & Outlet
it's soo hard when everyone around is saying leave
"you're too good for this BS - you look good go get another man"

Your Friend
DjembeQueen

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JJ,
Thank you for responding to my thoughts, I feel noticed and encouraged. Here is a more troublesome problem I am facing and need advice on. I am working on trying to win H's love back but I am under a time constraint. You see, I am active duty military and I will be going out to sea in October. He has stated that he is only staying in the house between now and Oct. to spare our children and he will leave when I return at Christmas. What can I do between now and Oct or now and Christmas? I feel like I am under more pressure as a result. He is now asking me to seperate our accounts while still living together, i.e. cell phone bills, insurance etc. And I am told he is going to buy a new 'muscle car' but he hasn't told me and when I am out to sea, he will have full access to my financial information and the use of it. HELP, I need some REAL GOOD advice and I hope its positive??

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How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
Not too sure.

How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things?
I rely on the past and the present re: H actions re:OW. I do believe in a better tomorrow or I would not be DB.

How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
I have been told that, "If I were you, I wouldn't be able to put up with this. You are a much stronger person than I am."

If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?
I would tell myself to back off, do a 180. I would listen to the advice and pray that I would not back down.

If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
Things would look great! We would have a wonderful marriage and take great care of our precious relationship and never take ANYTHING for granted.

If you were to put aside the "fact" that everything your partner is doing is meant to hurt you, what other possible explanations for some of their individual behaviors might you be able to come up with?
That H does not want to hurt me. He is lying and being deceitful as to not hurt my feelings. He is trying to please everyone.

What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?
To see that H has negative qualities and not everyone WANTS him. To not feel jealous about time he spends with OW/FF.

What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?!
What dot?

What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?
I envision H being open and honest about his wants and needs. I envision us sharing and spending time together. Us looking forward to seeing each other and truly feeling safe that we can be ourselves.

If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?
I would really listen to H. I would meet his needs even when it was hard for me and I would make sacrifices to make him happy and feel loved.

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Quoting Jamesjohn:
How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?


You know, I used to be so sure I knew what was going to happen, how my W was going to act or react in a lot of situations. But having that mindset seems pretty self-defeating sometimes. I wonder how much of that "knowing" acts as a subtle catalyst for negative self-fulfilling prophecy. Originally I think I used to tell myself what she was going to do or say as a way to protect me from hurt (which it does to a small extent). And I was often right. So as a professor once told me "that might be true but it's not very useful", I just try to ignore those urges to map out in my mind what she's gonna do or say.

Quoting Jamesjohn:

How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?


Thats such a tough one for me. I've talked about it with C and unfortunately if someone asked me for advice about their (being mine) sitch, I'd probably tell them to cut their losses. Its so hard because no one was there and knows what went on between us. My C thinks I'm foolish I can tell, but she hasn't said that. I'm not so worried by what other people think, but it's so hard to keep the DBing faith with well-meaning friends and family beat a constant drum to get out of the sitch and get a D. It's like another pressure that I didn't anticipate, and it really erodes PMA.



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Quoting nikatnight:
If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?
I would really listen to H. I would meet his needs even when it was hard for me and I would make sacrifices to make him happy and feel loved.


Thats a very good answer, puts it right into a nutshell.

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Hi everyone. Bridget reporting to class.

I'll shortly have more time to read things here,
but want to post something to get started.

On the topic of beginner's mind: though I've been DB-ing since December 2001, I still must "Clear Out Old Thoughts" routinely.

This week I realized how often I think things
are ALL-OR-NOTHING, NOW-OR-NEVER.

Shoot, I didn't finish painting the bathroom today like
I said I would, so I'm obviously a lazy, big-mouthed
good-for-nothing.

My H (in MLC) has been really nasty to me, reinforcing
this mentality. But it's a voice in my head that I
can turn off, no matter how he treats me.

I am NOT a loser just because I slip up.
Everybody slips up.

That's "clean slate" thinking.

Maybe our marriage is NOT over just because we're not getting along?

When my H started a porn website, I feared it was
because of me. When he couldn't or wouldn't talk to me about this (ad nauseum, like I wanted), I drew my own conclusions.

I must not be sexy enough.

I am obviously dried out, a discard. My H (younger than me)
doesn't want to be stuck with old baggage. I am no longer attractive. He no longer loves me. He will never talk to
me again. And I must FORCE him to talk to me.

But I was wrong.

My man's porn journey was about HIS insecurities,
HIS feelings of inadequacy, HIS fears about aging.

Not about mine.

And he will not be FORCED to talk. Heck, he doesn't
even understand what he's going through, how's he
gonna 'splain it to me?

Cut to now: we're still separated.
But we keep gravitating toward each other.
Somehow, somewhere, we still love each other.

Don't know where this will lead.

But it's a big relief not to be such a know-it-all
(especially about my erronneous, self-defeating
conclusions).

Glad to be here, thanks for listening.

Bridget




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WOW!!! What incredible responses from everyone! We are just at the beginning of Step 1, and I'm seeing so many insightful and honest responses! Congratulations everybody! This is going great!! I can't wait to see what the rest of the discussions bring!!

Thanks everybody for the kind words! You just can't imagine how much they mean to me! If you haven't already noticed this before , I really DO believe in the practical, "do-able", and wise guidance that Michele's teachings have to offer. I can't tell you how many "self-help" books I read before finding this place, but I'm sure that it's probably more than most local libraries have in stock!! However, I CAN tell you that knowing any of the "why's" things were happening didn't help me much until I came here, and began to look at the "what-to-do's".

And thanks, Dotty, for stopping by! I know that YOU really believe in this process, too! For those of you that aren't familiar with her, do a search on her name, and see what great things she writes, and what wonderful things that those who have talked to her have said about her. I assure you that you'll be pleased!!

And search out sgctxok too! She's a wise lady, that can definitely help to steer you in the right direction! Who loves you, sg?!

Anyway, forgive me if I don't get back with all of you individually. It's starting to look like we're getting some good feedback going back and forth between each other, which is what it will take to make this all work! Between ALL of us, we've got a heck of a lot of wisdom here, so let's make sure we keep using it!!!!

P.S. If you're at the place right now where it might seem too difficult for you to practice these new-found skills with your partner, pick someone else in your life that you can "practice" on. Maybe someone where the emotional intensity isn't quite so high at this time. "DB'ing", or being solution-oriented, can work in ALL relationships in your life, not just the one with your spouse. Keep this in mind, I know that this was one thing that helped me!!!


JJ

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