Sex-Starved Husband. Will Work For Sex.

[SillyOldBear]

My wife and I are 30 years old with three sons--two 12-year-olds and a baby. We adopted the twins about six years ago. The biggest issue, by far, in our marriage is sex. Simply put, I'd like to have some sometime and she would not.

We have gone as long as six months to a year without sex in the past, and it's not quite that bad now. We usually get one time per month. She insists that this has nothing to do with hormones or her menstrual cycle, but I've actually marked a calendar and you could predict moon phases by it. She rejects me for weeks, then initiates sex on a night of her choosing, usually by going to bed naked. I always go along with this, figuring there's no advantage to be gained by rejecting her for revenge. We have sex one time, she expresses great enjoyment and deep satisfaction, we snuggle and drift off to sleep. But for me, this is like a kid on Christmas morning with all the presents opened; it was great, but I know it's going to be a long time before it happens again, and I'm going to be rejected many times between now and then.

I feel hurt by her rejection, and I know I'm angry and irritable. I've talked very openly with her, and she with me, but I'm not seeing changes. Right now, I'm trying to go for a month without saying or doing anything sexually suggestive. I admit I constantly touch her sexually, say sexual things, and ask for sex. I know I pester her, so I'm trying to stop that and see what happens. I'm almost two weeks in. She's noticed that something positive (from her point of view) is happening, but there's no indication of any desire returning so far. My (irrational?) fear is that she'll decide she likes the new asexual eunuch/husband version of me and I'll be an even bigger disappointment to her if I decide not to be this sexless guy anymore. Not talking to her about what I'm doing is the worst.

Some ideas on why we're having this problem:

• We've both gained a LOT of weight since we met. Stressful jobs, kids--all the excuses. I find her irrestible. She finds me resistible. I lost over 100 pounds two years ago, but it made no lasting difference in our sex life and I gained it back.
  
• Our house is a wreck. We bought a 100-year-old money pit thinking we'd take our time and restore it--and then we took on the twins, and we were just trying to survive. Recently I completed a nursery for the baby and two new bathrooms are coming, but our bedroom is a disaster and constantly cluttered. I know that's not romantic, but I don't know what she wants me to do about it when she has four other rooms plus the outdoors she wants me to handle first. When I finished the nursery, framed, wired, insulated, glazed, drywalled, paneled, doored, floored, trimmed and painted by myself, her comment was "I didn't think you'd be able to do it."
  
• She's struggled with depression. She won't see a therapist, but whenever sex comes up, depression comes out. She has medication from her general practitioner, which I find wacky. I wish she'd see a doctor who specializes in the brain if she thinks there's a problem in the brain.

I can't help but be enraged by her rejection--it seems so willful. She enjoys sex so much (or pretends?) on the rare occasions we have it, but the next day it's back to the ice. I've seen versions of Michele's "Just do it" advice before, and it made sense to me, so I've asked her many times to give me three minutes to try to CHANGE her mood. She let me try it once; she went wild, we had great sex, she loved every moment (or pretended?) and promptly went back to rejecting me. She's never let me try that since.

I'd honestly like to be less angry at her, and I'm trying, but it's hard. The best example I can think of is the year she gave me one of those silly "I Owe You" sex coupon books you get in gag stores for Christmas. I guess she thought it was a funny joke to give her sex-starved husband a book of promises about sex, but I took her seriously. At that time we hadn't had sex for about six months. I brought it to her, and the first thing she did was go through the book--which she hadn't read before giving it to me--and tell me which pages she wasn't going to do . . . sex in the backyard, a couple of others.
Well, OK, not much in the spirit, but fair enough, especially since our backyard fence is chain link. Over the next two years, I brought that book to her dozens of times. I tried to use the coupons for sex, for a shower together, for a backrub . . . . eventually, out of sheer desperation, I tried every one.

In the end I burned the damn thing. I don't really know why she gave it to me. She couldn't bring herself to honor one single coupon out of that stupid gag gift. I don't know whether she intended to honor it when she gave it to me, but I can't fathom why she would:

1. Give me such a gift, knowing how depressed I already was by her constant rejection, if she was going to treat it as a joke, or
2. Give me such a gift, intending to let me use it to spark sex between us, and then be so disgusted by me that she couldn't even bring herself to give me a backrub.

I have never cheated and will never cheat. I don't want a divorce. I don't want another woman. I want to make love to my wife. I love her and I promised her my whole life, and I will give it to her.
That said, it kills me that she's set this Catch-22 trap for me. I can't have sex with any other woman because I loved her so much that I was eager to stand up and forswear all other women forever. This is a big thing to promise if you think about it. I'll never make love to a redhead or a blonde. I'll never make love to a woman with a southern accent, or small breasts, or freckles, or any other feature my wife doesn't have--but I was willing to give up all the possibilities out there because I thought, in return, I would get to be with her. Now I find that I don't get to be with her. I get to be the good father to our kids, and I get to be the good handyman who restores her dream house for her, and I get to drive the junk car so she can drive the car she wants. These are all things I WANT to do, but I can't help but notice that it seems like it only matters that I want to do them because she wants me to do them too. I never wanted to be her roommate.

[hoosiermama]

Maybe I can give you a little insight, being in your wife's role in our marriage. I'm just now beginning to work through this, so bear with me and maybe it can help both of us. (bear with me--get it?!)

I don't think you're doing anything wrong. You're certainly more patient than my H, who recently left me for someone else because of a MLC and...SSM? But he absolutely refused to do anything around the house, even pick up his socks, so you're definitely doing better in that area.

For a long time I've felt as if I just work at our home. Nothing gets done if I don't do it, H was entitled to do whatever "life-giving" activities he wanted but I only rarely got a night out with friends (dinner, not drinks). There was just an expectation that I'd take care of everything. And there was little emotional support, and absolutely no emotional intimacy. No pet names, no holding hands, no kiss goodnight, no interest in anything I was doing, not even "goodbye" when we parted in the morning or "hi" when he got home. No calls during the day to touch base, but if I was running errands I could count on 4-5 calls about "I thought you said you'd be home by now." I frequently worked 60+ hour weeks, but was still expected to keep up the house, pay the bills, run errands and drive D to any number of things. I was resentful and exhausted and felt very far away from him. On his part, I am sure he felt rejected and unloved, which in turn led to his emotional withdrawal and ultimately his leaving. Both of us stuck, neither able to move until the MLC hit.

In retrospect, I should have tried harder. There was no telling him that I needed emotional intimacy to feel physical, because he was already too resentful to budge. But someone had to make the first move and I wish it had been me. Yes, there were hormonal issues--a couple of pregnancy losses, perimenopause then full-on menopause, the effects of antidepressants I was taking to be less irritable (okay, enraged) due to menopause.

I could see me doing something very much like the coupon book, and then responding in a similar way. And that's because I really really wanted things to be different, I really wanted to be able to feel sexual, and I fully intended to try. However, without any emotional connection I just couldn't do it. It wasn't a conscious, manipulative thing--altho I'm sure it feels that way from the other side--but I would've felt guilty for not being able to "perform" and that would have contributed to a downward spiral.

What would have made a difference? Hard to say, but I know for sure I'd have tried harder if I felt loved, if I felt I was a priority in his life. It's all those little things--holding hands, spontaneous kisses, an arm around the shoulder, refilling my coffee cup when he refilled his own, noticing a new hairstyle or expressing appreciation for keeping the household running or telling me once--just once--that I looked nice. Those things go a very long way. I'm not saying you're not doing them, cuz I don't know, just giving you something to think about. Someone has to budge; if you both keep doing the same things, you'll get the same results. Think back about what "worked" to get you both in the mood when you were having sex more frequently. Maybe do some romantic things but don't follow them up with requests for sex.

I hope that's helpful, and that I didn't just make this about me.

[JCJ]

Hiya

I thought I would just put down a couple of comments from my point of view, bearing in mind I don't know you so just take what you need from them or please feel free to disregard.

For a lot of women sex is a complex issue. You need to feel calm, relaxed, loved and emotionally supported. For me sex is not so much about the physical act, although don't get me wrong that is important, it is about feeling close to someone so the cuddles and the touch and feeling special are just as important. As soon as I feel pressure I back off right away but I see you are in a catch 22 as you don't want your wife to get used to that and think that this is how things are. Have you read Dr. Ellen's books? There are some good wooing tips in there and Michelle's advice is also spot on.

I think you have pretty insightful observations on it all. Maybe she is feeling the pressure with the house, kids and job. Also many women struggle with self-image if they have put on a bit of weight and have all these other responsibilities on top – although never suggest this to her!! I would suggest finding a way of making her feel like a sexual being again. I think the gift of the book was a way of saying that she would like to be that person but is not sure how to go about it and then felt pressured.

Start really really slow, take the pressure and expectation off for a while. Build up her confidence, take time for yourselves and make her feel secure and safe that you have no expectations of her at this stage. Things like holding hands and subtle compliments are really important to a woman but also, if done at the wrong time can be annoying so don't be put off if she brushes you off. It is not out-and-out rejection it just means that other things are a priority for her at that moment or she might just not be used to it, it may be a shock. If she brushes you off look at the situation she is in at the time - is she dealing with the kids, or cooking dinner in which case she will be busy. Learn and move on and experiment with affection at a different time.

Us women are complex beings! We often expect men to just ‘know’ and sometimes, like me, learn the hard way that they don’t.

Hope this helps and good luck. Use the boards for a sounding board if needs be!

[Gypsy]

Hey Bear..

Just a comment while breezing through...

Clear out, clean up and make your bedroom a sanctuary. Clutter builds on depression. Make your bedroom the number one priority.

Mom's will sacrifice (without even knowing it) everything for their kids and spouse.. especially when depressed. She doesn't know how to put herself first, or her way of doing it is minimal.

Do a 180.. put something she doesn't feel she deserves first. If you or both of you can't renovate the room, at least clear out the stuff that doesn't belong there. Make it a place of calm. When my husband and I would work on something together, I always felt better, even though I'd be so garbled in my self defensive communication.

The book "His Needs, Her Needs" would be a good read. One point.. giving your wife affection is a basic need women have which leads to the EVENT of sex.

Be nice to her, a touch here and there.. a look when things are wild. Seduce her. The most compelling seduction starts well in advance.. that morning, the day before the 'event'. If she's so tied up emotionally, those knots need to be loosened, gently. And it's easy to do... just be nice, smile... give a hug, do a chore, play with her hair. Don't expect results because well.. you'd just look like a panting hound dog.

Your seduction induces her brain to calm, her body to relax. As much as Mr. Weiner Pecker wants to go a visitin', put him aside. Give her comfort, give her closeness, give her intimacy without the 'threat' of sex. The more relaxed she is, the more you both gain because it opens both of you to each other.

Give yourself your wife.

*hugs*

[Puppy Dog Tails]

JCJ and Hoosier,

Theoretically, those are all great suggestions, but my experience has been -- both in my own life and having spent several years on the SSM boards -- that backing off will only lead our poor Silly Old Bear to even LESS nookie.

Most LD/ND women, when their HD husbands pressure them, feel "pressure."
And most LD/ND women, when their HD husbands DON'T pressure them, report feeling "pressure, because I know that he wants it, and he's disappointed in me at the moment."

And in most cases, the LD/ND spouse will report RELIEF that the higher-drive spouse has backed off, and sometimes they'll even say things like "See? Isn't this nice? Why can't you be like this all the time? If you'd just stop thinking about SEX all the time, we could have a MUCH happier marriage!"

The problems are much more complex than having the high-drive husband woo the low-drive wife, unfortunately, as Michele so brilliantly documents in her "Sex-Starved Marriage" book.

I wish I had some answers for you, Bear. And there's CERTAINLY nothing wrong with trying some of these suggestions. But I'd only suggest them if you feel like doing them because these are some of the right things to do to honor and cherish your wife ANYWAY ... NOT because you think they will lead to more sex. The ball, ultimately, is in HER court, and until she's willing to do some serious work to try to restore her desire, the odds are long ones.

Puppy

[SillyOldBear]

I know for sure that she's stressed out. We work very similar jobs, but she works in a worse environment than I do and there's a lot of pressure on her. She puts a lot of it on herself. And we're both exhausted by the kids and the house; I don't blame her a bit. Well, I shouldn't, but as I read what I wrote, maybe I'm not doing a good job of not blaming her. It's hard, though. People talk about "doing the little things" and "keeping romance alive" but it's hard to be romantic the second time when the first time didn't mean anything. Another example from our past, if for no other reason than that I really hold a grudge:

We were both working half-days at a rural building during the summer. She wanted us to go to lunch with another couple, and she and I had driven separately. As they went to the restaurant, I noticed some beautiful purple flowers at the roadside, along a railroad bed. They were just weeds, I suppose, but they were pretty. I stopped and picked some, along with some white, lacy flowers and a few yellow daisies. I arranged them the way I wanted them, cut the stems, and peeled a few corn leaves, which I wrapped and tied neatly around the bundle. It looked like a professional flower arrangement, and I was proud of it.
I swear to you, when I walked in, gave her a kiss and presented her with those flowers, she said, "Only my husband would wrap corn around weeds." She tossed them on the table and left them there when we left. It broke my heart. When I told her, she apologized, but it was as if she couldn't understand why I would let such a little thing bother me.

I do the little things, though, and that's another Catch-22. Doing the little things is good, not doing them is bad. On this we all agree. But once you do them, then the analysis of WHY you did them begins. Did she really look beautiful, or was that a ploy to get sex? (No, she looks beautiful.) Are you only holding hands with her so you can have your filthy dirty way with her?
I do dishes and laundry daily, especially right now as I'm home all day for awhile and she's working half days. I change diapers, I bathe the baby, I cook dinner, I make breakfast, mow the lawn . . . . and I'm the one framing the floors for the new bathroom she wants, and finishing the attic so we can have less clutter, and installing central air and new windows . . . . it just feels like all of this counts for nothing.
Absolutely she takes care of the baby more than I do, but that's mostly because I'm on a ladder when I'm not crawling in the basement.

She does NOT take time out to do fun things for herself enough, but not by my choice. A couple of years ago she did at least start taking a "girls' trip" with my mom, sister and others in my family. They go to Wisconsin or Minnesota and act silly for a long weekend. She went last week, and I gladly kept all three boys at home. We were fine and she had a great time. Then she and I used her mother's day present--I got her tickets to see her favorite country singer a couple of hours away, and we made a date of it.
I know there are husbands who are distant, but I honestly don't think that's me. I make it a point to tell her when she looks especially good, or when she does something that makes me happy.

I know what you're saying about the coupon book, too. Intellectually, what you're saying makes sense, but it's hard for me to trust it. I feel like, no matter how many ways I say it, she has no understanding that for me, being stressed and exhausted by kids and work means I need to make love to the woman I love more than if everything were fine. I honestly think I'd need her a lot less if life were coasting along easily and I had time to go out and work at my hobbies. There ain't no "boys' trip" in the cards, either.

Truth is, my marriage is not as one-sided as I've made it sound here, and I know that. But it FEELS that one-sided from in here.

Anyway, I screwed up last night. We had a great Father's Day. My wife made a huge breakfast, and she and the boys gave me presents. They didn't get me a card because they rejected all the ones that appeared to be written for people with drunk, lazy fathers who blow up barbecue grills (good thinking.) My wife got me something I really wanted. Normally, I'm the big present guy--I love presents and surprises, so she gets big ones and elaborate surprise schemes. She asked me what I wanted, and I said something like, "Don't worry about it, everything I want is always too expensive or you don't want to get it or whatever."
Well, that wasn't fair, was it? I thought about it and apologized for not taking her at face value. I think she was shocked. She's used to having me be surly most of the time now, I suppose.
Anyway, we had a nice day together, then I got paged out and was kept running until after midnight. When I got back, I just couldn't go to bed. I'm closing in on my second week of being asexual, and it's starting to wear on me. One of the worst things about being rejected by your own wife over and over is that she still expects you to sleep next to her--and even cuddle. I've got nothing against cuddling, but if I'm on a forced diet, I don't want a piece of cheesecake suspended over my mouth by a string, either. So I posted here, and then some more, and read some threads. About four in the morning she came downstairs and saw what I was doing. I felt bad and went back up to bed with her. She could tell I wasn't happy, but I'm not supposed to be discussing these things with her while I do the month of the eunuch, right? She's not supposed to be told what I'm doing or why.
So I just tried to say over and over that she didn't do anything wrong, I was just having a hard night, but she was clearly not buying it, so she felt worse, and so did I. Finally I asked her whether she had thought about reading Michele's book. She's read the introduction and plans to read the rest, so I just came clean.
She did say that she'd noticed a change for the better. I guess that's something. The problem is that, from my point of view, I'm making a change for the worse.

Time to say something good about my wife before everyone thinks I hate her.

• My wife is a fantastic mother.
• My wife is gorgeous. She thinks she's fat, but she still has all her curves. When she smiles, there is light.
• My wife tolerates my volunteer work in EMS and politics.
• My wife can make me feel better when no one else can.
• My wife knows there's a problem in our marriage. She is trying, off and on, to make it better.
• If I can convince my wife to relax enough to have sex with me, the sex is wonderful.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

SOB (ok, so we need a better nickname for you),

Tell us more about what the work responsibilities around the house were BEFORE you were home full-time temporarily. Does your wife pull her fair share, or do you treat her like a bit of a princess?

I'm sorry, the flowers thing was just plain RUDE, and would have broken my heart, too.

My advice would be for you to do a "180" and move to another bedroom in your home. When she asks you why, tell her that you cannot bear to sleep next to her and not have a healthy sex life nor even any real intimacy.

Puppy

[WCW]

I'll never make love to a redhead or a blonde. I'll never make love to a woman with a southern accent, or small breasts, or freckles

Wow. I caught your thread title and thought I could offer an answer to both our problems, I have a LOT of work to get done, and H that won't help with the work or the sex! But then I read the quoted line and I guess it will never happen between us and it's not because of the bold print item. Anyway, just kidding.

As for moving to another bedroom, I advise caution and really think about how this will affect you too. I'm not saying don't do it, just saying to think about your emotions and feelings by taking away the limited physical connection you do have.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I'll never make love to a redhead or a blonde. I'll never make love to a woman with a southern accent, or small breasts, or freckles

Wow. I caught your thread title and thought I could offer an answer to both our problems, I have a LOT of work to get done, and H that won't help with the work or the sex! But then I read the quoted line and I guess it will never happen between us and it's not because of the bold print item. Anyway, just kidding.

As for moving to another bedroom, I advise caution and really think about how this will affect you too. I'm not saying don't do it, just saying to think about your emotions and feelings by taking away the limited physical connection you do have.

WCW,

I recommended this because SillyOldBear indicated he was struggling with laying next to her with no intimacy. I also think he needs to be less available to her, and take back some of the control of who initiates sex in their relationship.

But mostly, I just think he needs to do something dramatically different -- a 180.

Puppy

[WCW]

I understand your advice Puppy, and don't disagree. I am saying don't cut off the nose to spite the face or if you do make sure you are ready for plastic surgery or to wear a bandage.

Bear, also waiting to hear more about your W and how she contributes to nurturing the M with you. Does she?