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Hi, tal,

I'm okay.

I am just feeling the pain of limbo. I cannot adequately communicate with W, either because there are some things that we shouldn't ask or say (for the sake of DB/DR), or because W refuses to be open and honest even when she expects the same from me -- and then denies it and turns it around as if I am the one being that way.

And if I don't carry the conversation the whole time, it just goes nowhere and then W blames me for our failure to communicate. I really am caught between a rock and a hard place. I want to detach so badly for myself, but I have to also give this M as much opportunity as I can for the sake of my family.

I guess I am beginning to cycle back towards depression and fretting over whether I am really seeing even any baby steps. And with the holidays among us, I can sense it getting worse. I know to expect this, but it doesn't make it any easier to accept. At the least I can say to myself, "What have I got better to do?"

I've also feel I've got to start keeping by expositions a little more reigned in. Over on Scott's (EmtnRllrCstr) thread I gave this long-winded speech in response to his comment to me. I went off preaching about my spiritual opinion when I realize it was as much for my ears as for Scott's or anyone else's -- I find I am also trying to reinforce my stance for myself as well.

See? I did it with this response too.

More importantly, getting back to lighter subject matter, how are you and your sons?


Me: 49
WAW: 47
S11, S7
Years Married/Together: 17/18
Bomb: 6/15/07
Separation: 7/6/07
D: 4/3/09

Real love is a decision.
Marriage is a commitment.
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nocodes,

No worries, really everyone on here is here to listen.. we all go off on sometimes preaching a bit, im guilty of it.

It seems that with your w, you can't win.. Please don't slip backwards, be there for your sons they will need you. Don't let her get the better of you, try and stay strong. I know easier said than done.

Boys are great aren't they.. although my are attached at the hip most times, I think mainly because my H is gone a lot working. my 5 year old still sleeps with me, gotta stop that soon, I never get any sleep!

My H is due home in about 2 hours or so.. I cringe everytime is works long shifts because he's tired and cranky and I usually pay for it one way or another. I have to try and keep the kids quiet so he can sleep.. not an easy task. I hope he doesn't take on any more of these kinds of jobs because I had dealing with the aftermath. Things are status quo with us.. for now.

There something that bothers me always though, ever since he did these things to me, Ive haven't felt the same for him. Don't get me wrong I do love him, but its not the blind love you have for someone in the beginning, you become cynical, I don't trust anything. I just hope and pray that im doing the right thing for my boys, because as far as Im concerned they are my top priority.. I know its not supposed to be that way, your spouse is supposed to be more important, but for me and everything ive been through with this man, its just not that way. I think if I didn't have children then I probably wouldn't be here. I would have left.

Sorry to write a book.. you were worried about your post:)

Have a good nite, I'll try to be on tomorrow... H will be around so its hard to get on.

take care of yourself please!

((hugs))

Tal


me: 37
H: 44
Married for 18 years this june
S7
S3
porn issues, and much more... since 7/06

Happiness can be found, even in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.
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Thanks, TAL,

Yeah, boys are such fun. I know that girls are great too -- I've got three darling nieces that I love to death -- but the boys can be such a hoot sometimes. S3 was for a long time following his older brothers lead on loving cars and planes and such stuff, but now he's really shown his own interest in dinosaurs, so much more so than his brother. His own little boyish fascination, and it's so endearing. One of the gifts I gave him for his b'day was a little plush, stuffed triceratops. He now carries it around like a teddy bear. (The frill on the triceratops sometimes flops forward and it make it look like a baby bonnet.)

On your H, I know at times I too have been where he is in my own job. Every so often we get a project that requires me to pull one of these sorts of 30-hour stints to get it through implementation. It is a necessary evil in what I do, especially now I am back as a manager, and I regret the time it takes away from my family. While in years past W said nothing (leaving me to assume she understood), I now know she has taken these personally, however, and assumes that it is something I prefer, rather than being with her and my sons. It's childish of her, and petty -- and goes to show how out of touch with me we have become.

Originally Posted By: tiredandlost

There something that bothers me always though, ever since he did these things to me, Ive haven't felt the same for him. Don't get me wrong I do love him, but its not the blind love you have for someone in the beginning, you become cynical, I don't trust anything. I just hope and pray that im doing the right thing for my boys, because as far as Im concerned they are my top priority.. I know its not supposed to be that way, your spouse is supposed to be more important, but for me and everything ive been through with this man, its just not that way. I think if I didn't have children then I probably wouldn't be here. I would have left.


TAL, you have it right. The way it is supposed to be, is that we're supposed to put our spouses ahead of our parents (cleaving to them instead) and even ahead of our children. The reason being is that at some point our children too will leave us and they in turn must cleave to their spouses. At the end of our days, we are meant to still be putting our M and our spouses ahead of all others (excepting God).

But under these circumstances, because our spouses have opted to leave and abandon their commitments to us, we have to shift our priorities to place our children's needs ahead of theirs. The purpose of the M is for the family. Our children are the innocent members of the family, so our concern naturally turns to them, as it should be.

And it is natural to feel less for this stranger in our midst, and to distrust them. I look at my W and I still feel the passion welling up within me for that person I fell in love with, and I also feel the pain for the loss of who she was. I am not at ease with this stranger that has taken her place, and I will never be able to trust this person, not until she allows her inner soul to rekindle again, and to burn off this alien identity she is harboring.


Me: 49
WAW: 47
S11, S7
Years Married/Together: 17/18
Bomb: 6/15/07
Separation: 7/6/07
D: 4/3/09

Real love is a decision.
Marriage is a commitment.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,580
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<journaling>

S6 was sick again yesterday. He woke up a little after 5 AM, calling out to me. He threw up and I got a waste paper can to hold for him while he spilled his cookies. It meant missing Church, which I had been looking forward to. Oh, well. I felt sorry for my little boy -- I know how bad it can be.

W thanked me for taking the boys for their pictures -- she says she'll reimburse me for the cost later this month (she already owes me for mortgage/rent, being the first of the month. I am going to be tight on funds until I get paid this week. She just can't seem to get that in her head though.)

Yesterday afternoon I had a session with my C. He's suggesting I take a firmer stance with W and to call her out on some of these unfair attacks on myself. My instinct would be to agree with him, that I should not let her walk all over me, but then she thinks I am too argumentative as it is. I asked him how smooth should I make the path back to me. C said basically that if she doesn't respect me and my concerns she's not likely to want to come back anyway -- I'd have to agree: she won't tolerate someone she doesn't respect. C suggested several things, some of which I agree with and some of which I know are not in the DB/DR game plan (I did not tell him this) -- but on further consideration, given all the cheeseless deadends I've been down of late, I have decided to change tactics.

I'm a little tired of not being perfectly honest and candid with W just to spare her feelings. I have had enough of this one-sided tiptoeing around the eggshells, and I believe that "speaking the truth with love" is a better approach.

I wrote what just might end up being a final email to W, depending on how she takes it. It will either bring her into the conversation as an open and sincere participant, or she will get angry, let her pride rule her head, and ignore me. I sent it after she argued with me on the phone about (again) my lack of communication.

Here it is <warning: it might be a little long>:

"Perhaps I should try this one more time.

You continue to tell me that I am a failure in communication. And yet you seem to expect me to always be the one who opens up and spills his guts, while you get to sit back and do nothing but criticize.

I have told you I accept my failures and my contributions to the demise of our marriage -- and you continue to revel in my acknowledgments of those transgressions. But you have shown zero interest in taking full ownership of your contributions to the demise of this marriage. Somehow the only thing we can seem to agree upon is that I screwed up -- but we never ever focus on your own transgressions that have led us to this place. Funny how that works, huh?

Despite your misconceptions, I have been working on myself -- and getting my spiritual, mental and physical house in order -- and, no, I am far from perfect. You say that there have been no actions and no signs of improvement on my part. You are one to judge! Because you, in your mind, place the onus for what is wrong squarely on me, you have shown no interest in working on yourself.

But I get it -- yeah, you are perfect. In fact, you have other people telling you so -- so why should you change? Right? Growth is not something you have considered for yourself. No, you are already there and you "have a chance with someone" who already thinks you're perfect.

No, its much easier to demonize me and run away from your problems by pinning all of them on me. So keep me on the defensive all the time so we never have to consider what's up with you.

W, I love you.
Lord Almighty above help me, I don't know why, but I still do.

I hate like hell that you are doing what you are doing to us and our family. It is the most horrific pain I have ever felt. And yet I still can't help but love you. I am so utterly disappointed in you and still so mortified by this betrayal -- you are so much better than this. I know that.

I truly understand the pain you've been through, but this is too much. And you insist that nothing you have seen or experienced in these five months have moved you in any way other than your selfish, destructive path. Furthermore, you state that you predict the future that nothing I say or do will ever convince you to alter this course. Whatever. You're not trying.

So, again, what is the point of you and I communicating, especially with regards to our relationship? The pretense of better parenting to children in a broken family? Sorry, but that does not require me to tell you anything about my heart, my soul and my feelings; No, that only requires we speak only of our sons. Under the proposed circumstances for divorce, you will no longer be privy to what goes on with my personal life. And once the big D happens you will have abdicated any privilege of knowing about who I am and who I grow to be. We can and will talk about our sons, but that requires nothing else.

I have said it before, and I mean it: I am not going to stand in your way -- it would do me no good even if I tried. I hate divorce; I don't believe in divorce. Short of physical abuse, repeated adultery or other wanton sinful transgressions, divorce is wrong and a cowardly way to approach life's issues. But I hate what our marriage has devolved into as well. I miss the warm, loving, joyful woman I was once married to. I miss my spiritual partner, that beautiful soul I fell in love with.

I cannot stand what this has done to us. This constant, unrepentant hostility I feel from you is so beneath the woman I know. And it rends my soul to have to defend myself and argue with you; I can't stand what we do to ourselves.

My goal, were you really genuine in pursuing marriage counseling with me, was to rebuild the marriage from the ground up. To start over. To have a marriage reborn, with God's blessings. A born-again marriage, so to speak. And, no, it would not have been easy. Nothing worthwhile in life ever is. It would have meant hard work. Very hard work, and difficulties at times. But the work is necessary for a marriage to last, I know that now. A marriage takes both commitment and a continual effort to keep it healthy. And still I have become more than willing to give it my all. I have had my ideas in this regard. But I know the rewards for such would be beyond measure.

I can understand, though, why that scares you. You just don't want to make that effort. Commitment is tough. I understand. I am sure its so much easier to run away and be drawn into the emotional highs of infatuation with another person. Takes no effort at all.

It just disappoints me in you. I am not trying to shame you into anything -- Heaven forbid. If you don't have the strength of character to even try, then so be it -- I need to move on. I cannot work on this M alone.

I think we can try to be cordial with each other, if only for our sons' sake, but I don't think we can be friends any longer -- not really, not while you are pursuing an A with another person.

Should you ever decide that you would like to work things out between us, then let me know and we can really and honestly talk about it. Keep and mind that as time goes on I can't make any promises -- because things do change and I don't intend to sit still forever, but of course that all depends on where God leads me.
"

I know, get the 2x4's ready -- it ain't proper DB'ing.

I followed it up, for whatever it's worth, with the lyrics to a song that keeps playing on my mind of late.

Another Try

All the things I felt and never shared
All the times that she was lonely with me there
The tears I wouldn't let fall from my eyes
And how I let her go without a fight

The reasons I'm alone I know by heart
But I don't want to spend forever in the dark
I swear next time I'll hang on for dear life
If love ever gives me another try

There's no changing things that we regret
The best that we can hope for is one more chance
If the hands of time could just move in reverse
I wouldn't make the same mistake again with her

The reasons I'm alone I know by heart
But I don't want to spend forever in the dark
I swear next time I'll hang on for dear life
If love ever gives me another try

The reasons I'm alone I know by heart
But I don't want to spend forever in the dark
I swear next time I'll hang on for dear life
If love ever gives me another try


I've probably screwed up big time with this. She keeps drawing me back in when I need to detach more.


Me: 49
WAW: 47
S11, S7
Years Married/Together: 17/18
Bomb: 6/15/07
Separation: 7/6/07
D: 4/3/09

Real love is a decision.
Marriage is a commitment.
Joined: Jun 2007
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WOW. Just WOW. nocode. I am speechless, that is an amazing letter. Simply amazing. It might not be DB'ing, but I think, like my night last night, it might have to be done. HUGS

Hope S6 feels better.

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Nocode.. before you send that letter, ask yourself, is this going to bring me closer to my goal?

Sit on that letter for a few days, you might just be emotional right now. If after CAREFUL thought and consideration, you still feel like you need to send it, go ahead.

You have to remember that your W isnt really your W RIGHT NOW, she is addicted to this theory that life will be so grand without you.

I think if you can detach well enough, you can get the point of your letter across without even having to send it. Show her you are letting go by your actions, not by a letter that very well might push her further away.


Hurtin: 32
WAW: 30
D: 8
Bomb: 10/05
Sep: 12/05
Back together 8/07
Bomb (OM): 11/07
Filed for D (me): 12/07
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 848
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I second LWB ... Wow. No 2x4's from me. Your goal was to speak the truth with love, I think you accomplished that.

You get a A in my opinion!

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Thanks, Lwb, Hurtin', Joie, all, for your support and kind words.

I don't know if this will help or harm my situation. Time will tell.

Hurtin', you're probably right that I should have held onto this letter a little longer before deciding to send it. Usually I do. But it has been several days now since the last major exposition I wrote and sent to W, in which I asked her to stop criticizing and for once add something constructive to the conversation by offering her own thoughts and feelings. She's been silent on that, and evasive whenever I try to follow it up.

So I have had a lot of time to think and ponder what I would say. And after my counseling session yesterday, when she began to ask about my session (again) and complained about me shutting her out (as if!) as another sign of my lack of communication, it led to another disagreement. That argument was cut short when she decided it was really beginning to focus on her instead of just me. She claimed she had to get off the phone to attend to our S's, but I knew better and said, "okay, go ahead and run then."

W said "I'm not running. I really have to go."
I said, "Fine. Good bye. Good Night."

I duly noted that she never called back to finish the conversation either, much as I expected, when she surely could have after our S's were put to bed. So I took all my thoughts and wrote them up and sent them to her in an email (which I posted above).

So, for better or worse, the email was already sent, late last night. And given that my W has shown no respect for me -- and that respect is a necessary requisite for us to ever be able to work things out -- allowing her to use me as her punching bag and failing to defend myself or the truth for the sake of keeping the peace is not helpful after all. It's a cheeseless tunnel that I am not going down anymore.

I have since spoken to W on the phone. And while she allowed a few "pregnant" pauses occur (with the possible expectation I might say something more), we stuck to talking about our S's (especially about S6's fever.)

I am sure she's most likely gotten the mail by now, no doubt. And so far, it looks like she's ignoring it. If she follows the pattern I have been observing for these many months, she won't say anything about it, since there's nothing she wants to admit to me about herself anymore.

No expectations. No surprise. If this proves out, then I'm done with her.


Last edited by NoCodeBlues; 12/04/07 03:21 AM.

Me: 49
WAW: 47
S11, S7
Years Married/Together: 17/18
Bomb: 6/15/07
Separation: 7/6/07
D: 4/3/09

Real love is a decision.
Marriage is a commitment.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,643
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If you keep up with jar's thread, he sent a letter and it was basically ignored. WAS's are good at that. But you sent it, she read it, and whether she chooses to do anything is up to her. You have let go..and will 'let God'....at this point.

HUGS

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Blue,

The letter starts off on the attack and is demonizing. (I know, it is retaliatory demonization, but still not good in a letter.) That said, starting with "W, I love you." It gets good and deep and meaningful. You could be thorough and purge all instances of referring to what she does wrong, but I will not be that strict. You make your point -- she is not perfect. Perfect people don't have affairs. Period. I'd say, go ahead and send it without the opening remarks. If you are going to be that deep and honest, don't drive the reader away first.

Never mind, I see it's sent, and she has no response. That is such an insult when someone is open and honest with you.

Last edited by Sara; 12/04/07 03:34 AM.
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