To be honest, after you get married, your sex life changes. Period.
Add that to the fact that your W is 50 and you are 35, your sex needs are going to be different. She could be going through menopause or just not wanting it as much as when she was in her 30s. That's just life.
Next, your vague definition of what "good" sex is and how you stayed with partners just for the sex alone.
If all you do is revolve your relationship around sex or expecting sex if you do X,Y,Z, then M isn't for you. People will change and a M is much more than just the sex. Sure it is an important part of it, but what if she couldn't have sex any more? You said that you feel that people shouldn't be in a relationship if sex becomes an obligation. But that's what will happen if she can't perform any more.
If you can't handle that reality, I suggest you cut your losses and find a 20 year old who can give you all the sex you want.
Just my humble opinion.
You're suggesting though that her sex changed from 49-and-a-half to 50. You're also suggesting sex isn't important. To some people, it isn't, and that's ok for them. To me, sex is important. Frankly, I think it's the ultimate thing humans can do; it's better than music, martial arts, or jumping out of airplanes. That doesn't make me a bad person. That doesn't mean I should put up with a sexless marriage. I don't "expect" sex, I WANT sex. I AM rejected, hurt, crushed.
Look, sex is important for me. I'm not alone. I made sure before we married that sex wasn't an outlying obstacle, not as a condition, but simply because the relationship wouldn't have become as strong if it was sexless. Sex helped bring us closer together. It still can. But now she feels pressured to do it, so we're at a road block until she can get past it. The problem is getting her to try to get past it on her own.
Grey, I suggest you read "His Needs, Her Needs", it spells out what your going through. Ultimately, for a marriage to work, long term, BOTH partners needs have to be met- including your need for intimate sex. That said, perhaps you are meeting needs of hers that aren't her BIGGEST needs?
My sex life in some ways mirrored yours. Once married, I no longer felt "wanted" by my wife. I'd complain, argue, pout and be a little kid about it. The only time she asked for sex was when we were trying to conceive. Like you, I thought I was the perfect husband. I couldn't understand what the problem was, and it upset me. During and after my wife's EA, I learned from her what it was that I wasn't doing that would make her feel more loving. Additionally, and more importantly, I learned what I needed to STOP doing that was causing me to become unattractive in her eyes.
Since I have become more "emotionally intelligent" in my ways, our sex life has been incredible! We have sex 3-5 times a week, half of it initiated by her (I know- TMI). She no longer pretends to be too tired (or whatever else), and we "do it" whenever during the day, not just at bedtime. By the way, one of her biggest complaints in the past was feeling pressured to have sex because she resented hurting my feelings - sound familiar?
Your wife needs to feel a deep love and appreciation for you in order to feel sexual desire for you. Their "appetite" works differently from ours. Read the book and let me know what you and your W thinks. You don't need counseliling, you can do this on your own. Please remember not to allow your feelings to get hurt, or start defending yourself when your wife complains to you or explains what she needs. Listen and improve. That's it.
-HS
I bought the book this morning when I read this, so thanks for that.
What exactly were you doing though, or rather, not doing that your wife eventually said after an affair that she needed you to do?
Like, I think I'm meeting my wife's needs, if not exceeding them, particularly because she's told me what they are or I recognized them without her having to tell me. Were you not nice, or not cooking dinner, cleaning, taking care of the dogs, paying the bills, etc.? I have a feeling it's something you weren't doing, she told you it was important, and you started doing it again. Then she went from having sex with another man to having sex with you 3-5 times a week.
My problem is I've done those things. She said she wanted to watch a show I don't like with her, Breaking Bad, so we watch it (it's not that I don't "like it," but it's very intense, a stressful show). Last night she fell asleep watching it. She needed me to be better about the lawn she said. So I am. She wanted to see me more---I thought I was having a breakthrough in my art career while she felt she didn't see me enough, so I got rid of the art studio downtown and only paint at home now.
But you said it exactly right----my wife said this morning she "won't do anything I feel pressured to do." That's the rub to end all rubs, isn't it?
I mean, she has to be willing to put some effort in, right? But to do that, doesn't she have to feel "pressured" from within? I get that I can't pressure her from my end and make it better, but how many days in a row do I go without any progress and feeling rejected? I say days because it hurts every day----I can turn it off and be patient through meditation and reminders, but at some point every single day it breaks my heart.
You mentioned she "needs to feel a deep love and appreciation for you in order to feel sexual desire for you." I think she already feels that. Truly, I do. She just feels "pressured" to have sex. That's it. So I feel like a jerk for being hurt and rejected every day, but I can't "make" her decide to not feel pressured to make me not suffer from that rejection. I don't get it. I'm lost. I ordered the book, but I'm afraid it will a.) only tell me things I already know, and b.) won't be read by my wife because she would feel "pressured" to read it.
In my all-too-familiar 20-year experience with both my own and many others' SSMs, and studying "mismatched libidos," I have come to the conclusion that you are NOT going to change this. The whole "you can change yourself, and that will force the other person to change" is a fairy-tale.
You have to decide: is this (a sexless marriage) a dealbreaker for you, or not? Is the marriage otherwise happy and healthy? Are you getting what you need from it, other than this one area? NO marriage is perfect, and only you can decide if this is something you can live with or not.
If you push for it, you are "pressuring" them. If you DON'T push for it, she will tell you "Well I know you WANT it, so I can FEEL the pressure anyway!" It's no-win.
There's an old joke, where a man says "I want sex five times per week, and my wife wants it one time. So we compromised, and we have it one time."
In my all-too-familiar 20-year experience with both my own and many others' SSMs, and studying "mismatched libidos," I have come to the conclusion that you are NOT going to change this. The whole "you can change yourself, and that will force the other person to change" is a fairy-tale.
You have to decide: is this (a sexless marriage) a dealbreaker for you, or not? Is the marriage otherwise happy and healthy? Are you getting what you need from it, other than this one area? NO marriage is perfect, and only you can decide if this is something you can live with or not.
If you push for it, you are "pressuring" them. If you DON'T push for it, she will tell you "Well I know you WANT it, so I can FEEL the pressure anyway!" It's no-win.
There's an old joke, where a man says "I want sex five times per week, and my wife wants it one time. So we compromised, and we have it one time."
Sadly, there's much truth in that.
Starsky
I'm afraid you're right. Terrified, really.
Yes, everything else is great. Perfect, really.
And no, it's not worth it. I do not want a sexless marriage.
I get compromise----I don't want the extra financial expense of being married, for example. Without the marriage, I have more money. But that's not a dealbreaker. Being in a sexless marriate, for me, it's a dealbreaker. I don't think she wants that, not at all, but I don't have any idea that I haven't already tried at the suggestion of others here and elsewhere to get that to happen. She has to learn that marriage is hard work and some sacrifice, but I don't think she will ever do that on her own or with me just asking for it the way success stories show.
I was a great husband before the A (emotional- not physical). At least I thought I was. Other wives envied what my wife had too- I made great money, was extremely thoughtful and generous, surprised her with gifts, I keep myself in good physical shape etc. etc., blah blah blah. The thing is, her most important needs were outside of what I was doing. These things were all important to her, yes; just not the MOST important.
As I indiccated previously, most of what upset her were the "love busters" I engaged in. I'm not going to go through them all, but I will highlight one- I would "bully" her with my point of view. I would argue like an attorney to make my point on any issue. The reason I highlight that is because I see it in you, based on your posts. You go on and on about how great you are, faultless in fact, while at the same time arguing at length about how your need for sex should be met and why. The reason I think your wife is taking a stand against your pressuring? Because she can control it. I'm going to guess that your W has some resentment about you always having to have the last word. Maybe I'm wrong (I'm sure you'll argue that I am), but I'd ask the person you're married to instead of someone on a chat board. if she won't answer a relationship question (not an interrogation, mind you!) then I think you've got your answer- and bigger problems.
Get through HN,HN, wifey too, if she's interested. Take it in with an open mind and see if it helps your M situation.
Additionally, check out Michelle's "The Sex Starved Marriage". Hopefully, you'll find some answers.
I was a great husband before the A (emotional- not physical). At least I thought I was. Other wives envied what my wife had too- I made great money, was extremely thoughtful and generous, surprised her with gifts, I keep myself in good physical shape etc. etc., blah blah blah. The thing is, her most important needs were outside of what I was doing. These things were all important to her, yes; just not the MOST important.
As I indiccated previously, most of what upset her were the "love busters" I engaged in. I'm not going to go through them all, but I will highlight one- I would "bully" her with my point of view. I would argue like an attorney to make my point on any issue. The reason I highlight that is because I see it in you, based on your posts. You go on and on about how great you are, faultless in fact, while at the same time arguing at length about how your need for sex should be met and why. The reason I think your wife is taking a stand against your pressuring? Because she can control it. I'm going to guess that your W has some resentment about you always having to have the last word. Maybe I'm wrong (I'm sure you'll argue that I am), but I'd ask the person you're married to instead of someone on a chat board. if she won't answer a relationship question (not an interrogation, mind you!) then I think you've got your answer- and bigger problems.
Get through HN,HN, wifey too, if she's interested. Take it in with an open mind and see if it helps your M situation.
Additionally, check out Michelle's "The Sex Starved Marriage". Hopefully, you'll find some answers.
-HS
I don't mean to make myself sound faultless.
For example, yes, I've argued in the wrong way before. But I haven't done that since bringing up how hurt I was. That was a month ago, long after the last time we were physical, which is what was causing me the hurt.
I hear what you're saying, but, for example, if I ask her if she has resentment about me having the last word, she will see that as trying to be needy about having a sexless marriage. She will think I'm trying to pressure her into
I've got Michele's book. The bottom line is no marriage works without compromise. I think she's unable to compromise on her own because she's escalated it, over one mention of how crushed I am, to the point of completely shutting it out and avoiding facing it because she'd feel "pressured."
You said you would bully her to make your point. If I've ever done that before, I don't do it now, certainly not before or since my hurt came up. Like, I hear you, you had to stop doing that...but for how long? You stopped bullying your point and then she started having sex with you after how long, 6 weeks? 12? A year? I don't know how long to FAKE I'm not hurting and lie to her every day (that's what it feels like every day I stay patient and keep it inside) before it's time to do something and realize she won't accept her difficuly part of the marriage balance.
Can you tell me more about your situation? Even asking my wife what she wants, which your wife told you, will make her feel pressured in the wrong way. Maybe if I can start guessing right it will work out, because your situation sounds exactly like mine except without the resolution part and I am curious how you got there or if it ended up being a side effect of working past a separate emotional affair.
I don't think you should "fake" anything, but you should keep it to yourself and learn to control your reactions. She knows that sex is important to you, no need to further point that out right now. Instead, turn your focus to what you can do for her. Ask, point blank, what shed like from you. Do not even mention your needs, especially for sex! Focus only on her.
Look, it may be a hormonal issue, a psychological issue or something else outside of you that may be the cause of her low desire. I had a friend that broke off his engagement to a young fiancée because she would only have sex every six months or so. She was desperately in love with him, but he had to break things off because he knew that he needed sex frequently and their marriage would never survive. He gave her every chance, but she would always find a way to get out of having sex. I hope that's not the case for you, but it might be.
As far as the time it takes to recover from a love bank deficit due to poor behavior? That depends on the situation, but my wife's sexual love didn't return for 6 months.
I kind of feel I owe it to all of you to post as a 52 year old perimenopausal woman (it's not officially menopause until you've not had a cycle for 12 full months). I'm halfway there.
I happen to be like your W... I've enjoyed sex all my life, and it's been important to me. But I have to tell you that going through this hormonal stuff is much harder coming out than it was going in at 11, though there are lots of similarities.
Have you ever been around middle school girls? They're awful! They're petty, mean, self conscious and like someone one day and hate them the next. The hormones are all over the place. What is even more awful is that you don't understand that they have an effect on you, and you have no control over them. You have a choice on how you want to behave, but adolescence is kind of mired with a whole lot of yuck that most of us would never care to repeat. With me so far?
It's not so different on the other end. With the exception of one glaring thing: it's an ending, and you realize that a significant part of your life is over.
Grey, you won't understand this for a long while. You're young and you just can't know what it's like to hit the big red flag until you actually arrive there yourself.
I have to tell you, I've been a spry, energetic and mostly happy person all my life (with periodic life episodes that dog me, but I bounce back). When I turned 50, I was depressed, maudlin and terribly confused. It truly was like a light switch for me. All of a sudden I realized that I could be a member of AARP, and that there were things I desperately wanted to do differently for the rest of my life. I understood that there was more in my rear view mirror than my windshield. And it was horribly, horribly difficult for me... and beyond terrible for my friends and family. The older ones understood (especially my XH, who is a year older than I am), but nobody else did. Even my sister questioned me. UNTIL she turned 50 in March herself. And she's now going through a funk that her H and I support and understand.
I feel like an alien. I'm unsure. I know people think I'm attractive and fun, but I don't feel that way. My skin has changed. I can't seem to sleep off the dark circles under my eyes, and my fertility is halfway out the door (that's good for other purposes), but it has significantly affected me in ways I never dreamed possible. I have night sweats and wake up at 2 am and often don't return to restful sleep. It affects my ability to make good decisions, and lack of sleep has all sorts of other biological consequences.
If you would take this time to learn about it and work with her, it might do wonders in how you're perceived.
I gotta tell you this from experience. After my D, I dated younger guys. I have no problem with it. But if I were to do that now, I'd be terrified. I just don't feel like I can compete sexually with even my 40 year old self. And is has NOTHING to do with reality, but how I see myself in the mirror. You add the fact that I've always been able to remember stuff and now I am as flaky as a French croissant? It's sobering. And it happened quite suddenly.
Has it affected my relationships? I'm sure it has. The positive thing is I can control how I act and engage with others. I broke up with a guy last year because he just didn't want to attempt to understand what was happening to me. That's why I'm now looking for guys my own age, who will cut me some slack for being the adolescent in reverse. Because I know from my male friends in their 50s that they feel different too.
Read everything you can on how the estrogen depletion affects women. And hang in there. It's not a fast process, but you can be supportive and loving and work out a compromise for your needs too. But you might want to change your approach. You sound like the whiny 17 year old boyfriend I had way back when... It's not entirely about either of you. And since you're here, why don't you make the effort to cross her bridge first? See how that works. Monitor your results and keep communicating.
Good luck- Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
