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Originally Posted By: ForeverYoung

True, but there certainly is a time and place for taking the bolded path above. Like when the WAS is seriously threatening to start the D process. At this point "what works" is anything that stalls the D process and gives you a little time. Playing hard ball at the wrong time will only move you apart quicker.



I could have agreed with the first part of your post, FY, by saying "Well, not sure that if it's some tactical 'time' or 'place' but more like 'I wouldn't advise anyone to intentionally set out to be unnecessarily argumentative or combative'."

But it's precisely when your spouse starts down the divorce path that I would advise anyone to jettison ANY sort of "Oooh, I don't want to make him/her angry!" thoughts of mollification.

But that's all really here nor there -- my main point was people need a better set of criteria than "He/she seems to be nicer lately" to measure whether or not their efforts are "working." Because at best, it's a neutral piece of data, and at worst it's an intentional smoke-screen, as the wayward spouse is intentionally "nice" to the betrayed spouse in order to keep them in their proper place and to control them.

I would rather see someone define what "works" as "Is he/she making a demonstrable move back towards the marriage?" or "Has he/she stalled their once-hot divorce process?" or "Has she/he reduced or eliminated their contact with OM/OW?" -- that sort of thing. Far to many people go by whether or not their being "nice" or being "angry" ... especially us classic conflict-avoiders. blush smile


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M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
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Originally Posted By: ForeverYoung

My question for you Arsene is, does your wife respect you? She is not likely to fall back in love with a man she doesn't respect. This is part of the bases for the CB approach. You stand up for yourself, set boundaries and stick to them, and she may start to show more respect for you and see you in a new light. Maybe even as a guy that will not wait around forever for her. I think this can be done without going dark though.


Michele talks about this on pp. 122-123 of "Divorce Remedy," when she talks about the "Nice Guy" approach. I think some people would be stunned to read what she wrote about it, and should look it up.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
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Originally Posted By: Starsky309
But it's precisely when your spouse starts down the divorce path that I would advise anyone to jettison ANY sort of "Oooh, I don't want to make him/her angry!" thoughts of mollification.


Hmmm, I don't know. I think if it were me on a fast track to file due to issues I had with my spouse, her trying to pull the rug out from under me with some tough love technique would only speed up my determination to continue. Maybe that's just me, and again, I don't beleive Arsene is in this tense position anyway.


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Originally Posted By: ForeverYoung

Hmmm, I don't know. I think if it were me on a fast track to file due to issues I had with my spouse, her trying to pull the rug out from under me with some tough love technique would only speed up my determination to continue. Maybe that's just me, and again, I don't beleive Arsene is in this tense position anyway.


What if the "some tough love technique" were, you thought, AUTHENTIC, and what if it were accompanied by her hiring some bulldog attorney? smirk


Guess we'll just have to agree-to-disagree on this one, LOL.


Starsky


M57 W 57; D30 D28 S24 S20 GD7 GD2 GD1 GD5m GD1m
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Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Far to many people go by whether or not their being "nice" or being "angry" ... especially us classic conflict-avoiders. blush smile


Starsky


I too was always a conflict avoider, and even used MJD's "Brett & Stella" example you referred to in my first thread to justify a 180 I did when I let loose on W! As I posted in that thread, W did seem to respect me more afterwards.

Now I don't reccomend starting fights of course, but I do try to not hold in any discontent any longer. I also "choose my battles" wisely.


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Originally Posted By: ForeverYoung
When the tough love technique does draw them back, is it because they really want back in on their own accord?

My guess is no, it's more likely they came back because you cornered them, out played them in the chess game, so to speak.

Is this the best way to build a truly loving and lasting relationship?

After the Last Chance Technique indeed.


It takes a mixture of both FY. The bottom line is, how do you balance it? That is the tough part.


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Originally Posted By: Arsene
Originally Posted By: Denver_2010

I will say this though Arsene... the difference between my sitch at that time and your sitch now, is that I had laid down that boundary. I may have let her off of the hook too easily, but she knew that boundary.

Your W has no boundaries.

A second difference is that I had much more too make up for. From what I know about your sitch, I was a much bigger a$$hole in my prior R/M with my W than you ever were with your wife. I let that affect many of my choices back then. I hadn't forgiven myself at that point.

A third difference is that when my W did choose to have OM in her life, knowing that I would not be, I let her be. This part I am talking about occurred after the Disney trip. I no longer allowed her to play both sides of the fence. She knew that if she was in contact with OM, that I would not be there for her to lean on or to spend time with.

And it was THOSE times that my W truly had the chance to see that OM was NOT what she wanted. And that what she DID want was me and our M. Yes, it took her time to get passed some other aspects, ie, forgiving me for past hurt, and getting over fear that things would go back to being bad if she did make that leap back towards our M. But it gave her the time to travel her own path... to investigate other life choices that she COULD make if she ended up deciding that they were better for her.

Ultimately, the answer to that was that those other choices were not better for her.

I don't think that she would have gotten there had I lingered around during those times.

Lastly, I was not physically capable of letting myself be in her life knowing that she was having contact with OM. That just isn't me though.

---

It's is funny that you chose to talk about that part of my sitch because I think that it really was one of the top two or three points of the entire ordeal. It was a time that I could have made the choice to do something completely different than I did.

Right or wrong though, I did it my way. And I did travel my own path doing my best to use DB and the advice here to guide me.

I lived pretty much the entire gambit of it all.

So I understand what you are doing Arsene. All I can do is give you advice from what I see on the outside looking in, and based upon my own experience. I will add though that sometimes others do see your own situation better because they are not in the fishbowl. That's why it is easier to give other people advice than it is to follow the same advice yourself. (not speaking about you specifically... but of everyone).

Not going to edit this because I am tired... so I apologize in advance if it doesn't entirely make sense.


Thanks Denver,

Thanks for taking the time to reply in as much depth as you did, and thanks for seeing where I am as clearly as you do.

As you said, my W hasn't got any boundaries yet and that is because I'm not yet ready/in a position to enforce them if she were to cross them.

Another reason for this lack of boundaries is another difference in our sitches. After a few months, your W did come around from being completely DONE to reconsidering her position. Yes, she was still confused about OM but she at least considered the possibility of life with you once again. My W has never been there and she is still DONE. If I were to set a boundary, I am pretty sure she would walk. If she were to reconsider her position, I would insist on NC with OM, and make that a deal breaker.

Presently, I am considering a version of what you once referred to as plan A/plan B and making myself more desirable in her eye. I have seen some progress as you know but I still don't feel ready to act on anything. Right now, she seems to be going through a thinking phase and I guess I want to see this through and continue with what I'm doing, for now. As FY reminds us, Michele clearly states that you usually have to wait out the affair an I'm seeing how far I can go with this without putting pressure on her.

As you may remember, some of my issues were control and manipulation. W even thinks that my standing for the marriage smells of manipulation so any kind of pressure is sure to be seen as more of the same.

To conclude, as I mentioned earlier, the one thing I need to do now is REALLY GET A LIFE. Start focusing more on me and what I want to do for my future. This will have the effect of making me happier on my own and perhaps boosting my confidence, as well as preparing me for the worst case scenario, if it was to happen. It will also help me detach and create a bit of distance between me and W.

MKB, what you said about a sense of shame has been felt here as well and although not the main reason for not divulging my sitch, it has had an influence on my decision. My main reason still is that I don't really know that many people well enough to talk about this sort of thing around here.

Thank you all once again for your time and support.

Cheers!



I'm sick as a dog right now Arsene, so I apologize for my brief replies.

I get what you are doing. I really do.

The Plan A/Plan B thing is a perfectly acceptable way to go about this. The concern from my end though is that your W loses respect for you because you do seem okay with her having OM. A secondary concern for me is that you fall too much into a 'friend zone'.

You are certainly in Plan A right now. But even the author of the book who coined that term states that you should only be there temporarily.

Eventually, you HAVE to move into Plan B.


M 43
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W moves out of home 11/2010
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Hey Denver

Hope you aren't feeling too rough chief.

I think with Arsene and his sitch it has pretty much all been said, from different angles and approaches.

I agree that Arsene should do what he wants to do. He's not ready to do anything that will change the landscape on his sitch and would sooner be in limbo than to risk speeding towards a divorce.

I totally get where he is coming from, I understand his choices and I like yourself and a lot of other people on here know what it feels like to stand for a M when your spouse is having an affair.

It hurts and it grinds you down like nothing else can.

I wish you weren't going through this, but you are mate and no matter what approach you take and whatever the outcome, be it next week, or next year there is a lot more hurt to go through.

This thread is a bit like a circle, where you keep going round and end up in the same place, in the same conversations, with the same people, giving you the same advice.

Why do you think that is that mate?

How long are you going to stick to plan A?

When you weigh it all up, noone has got all the answers, we just have opinions and we have our own experiences.

I respect you for sticking to doing what you want to do mate, I just think you are keeping yourself trapped in a cycle of hurt and emotional cruelty, that won't be broken unless something changes it.

It's just my opinion and you should do what you want to do.

I don't think I can really say anything else that I haven't said before.

Good luck mate, I hope it all works out for you.

Bill smile


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M: 9 years
T: 12
Bomb: 02/11/12
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Thanks guys,

I feel this debate is moving along in a very healthy way and I'm getting loads of great opinions and different perspectives. All of this is hugely helpful.


Originally Posted By: AnotherStander


In dropping the rope the LBS is really releasing the WAS completely and saying "I'm no longer working on us, I'm working on me".

This is a good way of putting it. Difficult to do, but I can see how the subtlety would make a difference.

Quote:
When I decide to pull back to help me detach and give wife time to miss me. How do I assess the progress on this?


You'd need to see her reaching out to you whether it's calling, emailing, texting or a mix of those. Pursuit.

These are things she has already been doing. I very rarely initiate contact. I guess I've been guilty of being overly available tough. This is what I'm working on now.

Quote:
When I see W seemingly coming around and spending more time at home with me and D8, and inviting me out. Is this really progress in my sitch? Or should this better me that I'm becoming not care about that?


Yeah, that's definitely progress. But you have to celebrate those baby steps internally and continue DB'ing. Of course you care about it, but try not to show you care. It's the whole distance/ pursuit thing. You distance, she pursues. If you react too strongly to her pursuit then she goes back to distancing.

Hmmm, and this is where me pulling back right now might have a bigger impact than being overly available.



Originally Posted By: ForeverYoung

True, but there certainly is a time and place for taking the bolded path above. Like when the WAS is seriously threatening to start the D process. At this point "what works" is anything that stalls the D process and gives you a little time. Playing hard ball at the wrong time will only move you apart quicker.

I like to think I'm well past that point, and I really think Arsene is too. As far as I'm concerned my D has already been busted. I'm working on building a better marriage for us by working on me, and monitoring results. So, I'd say that "what works" is a process of constant adjustment.


I agree that I'm out of the danger zone for now but I unfortunately can't say my divorce has been busted yet. The absence of OM in your sitch is a good sign. Now you can afford to give her time. In my sitch, a lot more time might erode the respect my W has for me as Starsky and CB often suggest.

Originally Posted By: ForeverYoung

My question for you Arsene is, does your wife respect you? She is not likely to fall back in love with a man she doesn't respect. This is part of the bases for the CB approach. You stand up for yourself, set boundaries and stick to them, and she may start to show more respect for you and see you in a new light. Maybe even as a guy that will not wait around forever for her. I think this can be done without going dark though.


True. To this day, despite her actions, I think that she does respect me for my conviction and determination to do the right thing. I don't think she goes away thinking:"Sucker!". I truly believe that she is going through something beyond her control and that it's confusing her. Whether it's the addictive power of the affair or the new thrill of living a teenage life again, without responsibilities, something is holding her back. I hope that my pulling back now will help to get her unstuck.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

I was happier than I had been in a long time (which he noticed) and I just believed and then KNEW that my future was bright.

A big part of me said "forget it. Why take the chance of being hurt again?" But I still loved him, though in a different way, and the kids did too, and I felt that all in all, trying to be an intact family after all the DB work I'd done, made sense. Forgiveness had mostly been achieved...

As for HIS view, his comments suggest that seeing

my confidence in MY future was intriguing...seeing that I was going to be fine sort of irked him but in a productive way...

[/color]


Yes, and this is the place I want to be. Where I'm happy again living my life for myself. This is the man W met back then and as it did for your husband, I think she would be intrigued by it. I read somewhere that you have to send the message:"Join me on my adventure" not "Come and be my adventure".

Originally Posted By: Starsky309

But that's all really here nor there -- my main point was people need a better set of criteria than "He/she seems to be nicer lately" to measure whether or not their efforts are "working." Because at best, it's a neutral piece of data, and at worst it's an intentional smoke-screen, as the wayward spouse is intentionally "nice" to the betrayed spouse in order to keep them in their proper place and to control them.

I would rather see someone define what "works" as "Is he/she making a demonstrable move back towards the marriage?" or "Has he/she stalled their once-hot divorce process?" or "Has she/he reduced or eliminated their contact with OM/OW?" -- that sort of thing. Far to many people go by whether or not their being "nice" or being "angry" ... especially us classic conflict-avoiders. blush smile


Starsky


I agree with you that "He/she seems to be nicer lately" isn't a proper gauge that things are swinging back your way but in some situations these are the baby steps MWD is talking about and they might be the precursor of more dramatic changes. I think it's important to keep things in perspective. I my present sitch the "He/she seems to be nicer lately" doesn't affect me all that much anymore but at one time it was a sign that I was doing progress.

WRT "Is he/she making a demonstrable move back towards the marriage?". What is a demonstrable move? Does it happen overnight or progressively? I never expected W to have a 180 turnaround (well, maybe I did a one time but that was foolish of me). It took a lot of thought and "guts" for her to decide to leave her family and it'll be the same for the way back. The first step towards "Is he/she making a demonstrable move back towards the marriage?". might just be "He/she seems to be nicer lately"


Originally Posted By: Starsky309

Michele talks about this on pp. 122-123 of "Divorce Remedy," when she talks about the "Nice Guy" approach. I think some people would be stunned to read what she wrote about it, and should look it up.

Starsky


Good point Starsky. I don't think this is something that can be faked. You have to be there and to do this you need to detach. You need to stop caring about the outcome, or to visualize a different outcome. I'm working on this mate.


Originally Posted By: ForeverYoung

Hmmm, I don't know. I think if it were me on a fast track to file due to issues I had with my spouse, her trying to pull the rug out from under me with some tough love technique would only speed up my determination to continue. Maybe that's just me, and again, I don't beleive Arsene is in this tense position anyway.


I'm not FY, but things can change in a "NY minute" as Denver often says. At the point where I am now, if it happened and I found myself in that situation again, I might just go that way, perhaps as a last ditch attempt at swinging her around. Mind you, it's impossible to tell how I would react in that context.

Originally Posted By: ForeverYoung

Now I don't recommend starting fights of course, but I do try to not hold in any discontent any longer. I also "choose my battles" wisely.


I think this is key. I have put my foot down on a few issues which were important to me and somehow, more under my control, and yes, I have seen these rewarded by my W's acknowledgement if not renewed respect. There is no point starting a battle you can not win. You have to make sure that, strategically, you are in a better position than your opponent. Otherwise, you end up in a "charge of the light brigade" scenario. Lots of glory, lots of respect but still defeated.

Originally Posted By: Denver_2010

I'm sick as a dog right now Arsene, so I apologize for my brief replies.

I get what you are doing. I really do.

The Plan A/Plan B thing is a perfectly acceptable way to go about this. The concern from my end though is that your W loses respect for you because you do seem okay with her having OM. A secondary concern for me is that you fall too much into a 'friend zone'.

You are certainly in Plan A right now. But even the author of the book who coined that term states that you should only be there temporarily.

Eventually, you HAVE to move into Plan B.


I hope you get better soon mate. I know what you mean. There was a time for being friends and I hope we have achieved this but now, do I want to stagnate there? The question here is how long is temporary?


Originally Posted By: breakdownbill

I respect you for sticking to doing what you want to do mate, I just think you are keeping yourself trapped in a cycle of hurt and emotional cruelty, that won't be broken unless something changes it.


Thanks Bill. I understand what you are saying and I see exactly where I need to go. As you pointed out, the advice on this thread is loud and clear and pretty consistent. The only variable in our opinions seems to be the timing.

I think it's pretty much agreed that we can't just fake it. That it has to be heartfelt for it to be credible. Unfortunately, this all depends on the individual and the situation. What is my threshold? How much of this can I take? I'm not sure yet but I can feel things changing in me.

As 25 states, I'm still young at this DB thing, relatively, so my timeline of December to re-assess things would only put me at 7 months (disregarding of course the 2 years since EA, after which we seemed to be working on things together). What will I do in December? Who knows what state of mind I'll be in? I'm living it day by day for now and trying not to get ahead of myself. I don't need tomorrow's problems today.


Wow, this WAS a marathon. Thanks so much for your continued support my friends. This thread has taken on a life of its own and I really appreciate your contributions. It's helping me define my thoughts more clearly.


Freshman Class of 2012

M-49
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T 10 YEARS
M 9 YEARS
EA/MLC 07/2010
Separation 28/05/2012
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Now just a bit of journaling.

I've been conducting a little experiment for the last few weeks. Since my W occasionally uses my computer when she is here. This is with my permission usually but also at times when I'm not there. I haven't said anything because it is the family computer and she could be on it with D8 as well. What I've done is I have visited sites on advice for Divorce (Should I get a divorce, How do I know if divorce is right for us, etc...)as well as websites that give the truth about divorce through surveys which show that in most cases, it doesn't bring happiness and sticking it out is much better for the kids. I used to erase this stuff from the history so that W wouldn't see or know what I was up to but lately, I've been leaving it all in the history, I guess to see if it gets noticed.

Yesterday afternoon, W texted me to ask if she could stay overnight. We'd talked about it the day before and I had already said it would be fine but I didn't mention that and just said it was no problems. I see it as W trying really hard to make sure she respects my request on this, which is good.

I got home after work and W and D8 were out cycling so I got myself ready. I'd planned to go out but I wanted to see D8 before leaving. D8 told me that when she is out with W, W often tells her that they have to come home because daddy will be angry. D8 says that she constantly tells W that daddy doesn't get angry anymore and she doesn't understand why W doesn't believe her. Anyway, since then I make a point not to even sound slightly cross, no matter what time they get home. I put on my upbeat PMA and decided to wait patiently. Besides, I also wanted W to see me leave, all dressed up.

W and D8 got home and we had a pleasant few minutes. W then asked if I was leaving and I told her I was, without volunteering where or with whom and I left.

I really didn't do much. I just met a former colleague for a few drinks and was back home at around 11 pm, after everyone was in bed. At around 10 pm, while I was out, I noticed I'd received a text from W at 9 pm, about our "immigration date" in the morning, in which she tells me to "Have a nice evening" and "Good night". There really was no reasons to text me about the "immigration date" in the evening as we were to have breakfast together in the morning anyway. As I only noticed the text later I didn't bother answering it. Besides, it didn't require a reply other than possibly me wishing her good night back.

When I got home, everyone was in bed and I noticed that someone had been on the computer. I checked the history and Lo and behold, someone had looked at a few divorce pages a bit before 9 pm.

In the morning, all was pleasant but with minimum talk, and W took D8 to school. I then picked her up at her home a few hours later to go to immigration. As far as I know, this was a nearly perfect DB day. I was pleasant and cheerful but distant. We smiled at each other when I got there and I didn't start any chit-chat, but simply waited for her to get on the bike. I guess that worried her as she asked me if I was ok, to which I simply replied, yes while continuing to smile. Not a word was exchanged during the ride there (30 minutes in traffic)which is not unusual while riding a motorcycle in the heavy traffic, however, we usually have some brief exchanges/comments on any given ride.

While parking the bike, I hit the finger which I had hurt a few weeks back in my accident and felt a surge of pain. W was so worried that the finger might be broken since it hadn't healed yet and even said I should get it X-rayed and she would pay for it if i needed. I simply thanked her and assured her I was fine. Quite a change from the day of the accident when she appeared so cold and uncaring.

At immigration, we were told that the paper we were to collect still weren't ready and that we'd have to wait. This would usually have sent me off in anger but, lately I've been good at showing patience and even a certain acceptance in the face of what used to really upset me. The place was full and we had to stand (another thing that used to annoy me) so i did and I didn't initiate any talk with W. She on the other hand, went on about how inefficient this all was. I validated her feeling but didn't contribute to her rants. I simply busied myself, looking around, appearing not to mind the wait.

W eventually found a seat and she went to take it. I didn't move to follow her as there was only one free seat anyway. I casually leaned on a wall and went on my phone to change some settings, and perhaps to look like I was receiving and sending texts (an unusual thing as I never really got calls or texts in the past). We were eventually told that the paper would not be ready today, which I took with a smile and my new-found acceptance.

While retrieving the motorcycle from the parking lot, an old lady came over to ask for change. I used to always find reasons not to give and one of my 180s was to work on my greed issues and try to become more generous so as of the last 5 months or so, I always give without thinking, not spare change but usually a bill. I read something about acting on your first thought because once you start to think about it, you end up justifying not giving anything. That is what I had been doing all my life so now I just automatically reach in my wallet for a bill, which I did now for the first time in front of W, to her surprise I must say.

W then had to go to some government office for D8's school so she asked me if I would take her and I did (it's for our D8). The traffic was really bad on the way there but I was always very calm, and I didn't even acknowledge it when someone almost hit us. This is the type of situation which used to drive me up the wall and get me into one of my anger fits. But now, W is the one who actually said something, while I stayed quiet.

Again, very little conversation on the ride there. She asked me to stay outside to make things easier (sometimes the presence of a foreigner makes the process more difficult as civil servants expect a bribe for doing their jobs), which I did, very patiently.

After 30 minutes she came back to a very relaxed me, quietly sitting on a bench smiling at nature and texting on my phone. This from a man who used to be so impatient that after 15 minutes he would have called her to ask what the problem was.

Once that was out of the way, I simply drove her home and left after thanking her for her help.

It didn't feel bad as I was always pleasant and answered her direct questions in my usual manner. The only difference is that I left the ball in her court at all time, and I only offered slightly more than the minimum, as to not appear rude.

I feel like I'm playing a bit of a game and that is something which I don't usually like but in trying to act "as if", right now it's what I need to do. Once my network has expanded and I do get texts and calls more often, I won't need to make believe that I have a life.

Now, just one question before I end this post. My W used to be the kind of woman who would sacrifice herself to please others or to make sure others are happy. This is probably what led to the present sitch.

What if, in her mind, she thinks that I'm moving on and that I'm happy and decides that even if she would like to come back, she should just let me go on and be happy in my new life. I know she probably feels guilty and even she might get the idea that she's not good enough for me anymore after the harm she's caused me.


Freshman Class of 2012

M-49
W-42
1D-10
T 10 YEARS
M 9 YEARS
EA/MLC 07/2010
Separation 28/05/2012
PA confirmed 31/07/12
W Asked for D 31/07/12
D on and off the table since then
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Moderated by  Cadet, DnJ, job, Michele Weiner-Davis 

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