Quote: I'm not always sure whether it just seems like verbal abuse or if it's just the way I interpret what you write
Perhaps you wonder because I'm never sure myself when I write it just how much I've interpreted and what he really means.
I'm confused myself. I do think that some of what he says and does is emotional abuse.
I'm just not sure I want to put myself in a victim role regarding what he says.
He says what he says (my mom use to call it diarrhea of the mouth) and I can and do call him on it. But sometimes I am appalled at what he says and wonder as do you, if he really thinks what he says is okay.
He is stuck and really he does have an incredible amount of issues that originated in his family of origin which he tends to confuse with me.
I guess the question is just how much disfunction am I willing to live with and thereby contribute too.
I do agree with you and my dear friend Alex, I know I have more then earned my way out of this marriage. I just keep sadly going down the tunnel with no cheese that believes that my H will snap out of it and be his old self.(with some wisdom)
Who would've believed that I , miss free spirit,(way back when) would have ever stayed so long.
Right now I am witnessing the devastation of what divorce has done to my brother-in-law's kids. My sensitive little S9 would be devastated. It paralyzes me.
You are an inspiration to me Frosty. I love reading about you and your girls. I value your thoughtful posts.
Our C use to notice this unusual phenomena that when H does a little venting. He gets it off his chest and then the real H emerges.
She was curious about this and we had several sessions where my H did indeed vent. We noticed that he then became participatory and he was open to learning new and better skills regarding expressing his needs and feelings and he was more open to feedback. And he has put these skills into practice and been improving over time.
The times between his stupid, insensitive and hurtful comments is becoming longer and longer. He just has a long way to go.
So how much of what my H says is just his need to vent? NOT that it is okay for him to say hurtful things to me. But this guy lives in his head. It's like he has to get it out for him to see how confused his thinking is.
After our latest talk. And these have all been very good talks. (I don't like all of what he says and he can have a tendency to bring up things that I do or did that he disagrees with.)my H has felt much more empowered and has been very respectful to me. I know some of the things he says are unbelievable. I do think that when he gets them out he realizes this as well. I know it sounds like I am making excuses for him. That is not my intention. This is a problem.
I need to be much stronger in my bounderies. I need to enforce ground rules for our communication so that I can avoid being vicitimised by his voicing any thought that is in his head.
I do intend to hold him accountable.
I am not back-pedaling. I almost hesitate to share the "cr@p" my H says. But sometimes I get confused. Did he really say what he said?
I just don't think emotional abuse is that simple. He does not systematically undermine me at all times. Just occasionally. This is not okay, I know this. Where is the line crossed from problem to be addressed to abuser and victim? Not sure I'm making any sense.
I will find my path. I will find my path. I will find my path.
Thanks for listening. I welcome your insights, thoughts, comments, hugs, hellos, etc.
The thought of verbal or emotional abuse has been on my mind for a while. Not necessarily from my H, not sure he communicates enough to get that label. His family culture is not to say enough.
My family, however, has a way with words. We tend to be sarcastic to a fault. It's fun most of the time, but over the years there have been some hurt feelings. The real problem lies in my dad. He is a very intelligent man with no emotional intelligence. He says things that actually insult people, but has no understanding that he did. My mom used to take care of the loose ends with what he would say, she was the only one allowed to "challenge" him in any way. Now that she's passed on, it is getting increasingly worse. Some of my siblings and I have tried on a couple occasions to help him understand. The result is that now his feelings are hurt, he feels attacked by us.
Sorry for the detail, I guess what I've figured out is that human emotions are so complicated and as you say, nothing is simple. I suppose one would need to look at intent to determine actual abuse? I know that I have somewhat shutdown on my dad simply because I can't deal with it. I try to keep it at the weather and such, and unfortunately avoid him if I have to.
It is good that you realize the pattern has changed, perhaps he has to say what's in his head to realize that what he's thinking doesn't make sense?
I only posted what I did out of concern for you. Only you can determine if you've had enough. As we all know, you are the saint!
I couldn't help but notice that you appologized 2X in your post to me. Once when you said: "sorry for the details" and the other time when you said: "I only posted what I did out of concern for you."
I know it is sometimes hard to know what the "tone" of or intention is, in our posts but rest assured, I always get from you (no matter who you post too), caring, thoughtful, insightful and supportive posts that are also honest and helpful.
I probably have the same tendency to appologize as well, so of course, I would notice it.
I am grateful for the "details" in your post, it's what makes for better understanding. Your generosity in sharing them is appreciated.
As for why you posted what you posted, to me("I only posted,what I did..."), I love your thoughtful, honest even provocative posts. I value honesty and am now ( I'm sure I wasn't the first 2 years) able to hear it like it is.(I think, lol)
I'm glad that you and Alex voiced what you did. At this point I need honest reflection from people that I trust for their wisdom, thoughtfulness, kindness and intelligence. That would be you (and you Alex) and so many more that post here.
I know that I am painfully sensitive, oooooverly sensitive really. I can analyze everything a million times and still not see it in either black or white to better make a decision.
Quote: I suppose one would need to look at intent to determine actual abuse?
I think that is part of the picture. Also, how we choose to deal with it as well. As an overly sensitive person, it may not be healthy for me to live with my H's comments over time. On the other hand, it is forcing me to be vigilent with my boundaries which, believe me, go "all out" for the "opposing team." giving wide lattitudes for how others treat me.
Quote: I know that I have somewhat shutdown on my dad simply because I can't deal with it. I try to keep it at the weather and such, and unfortunately avoid him if I have to.
Well, that is a consequence for your dad (or anyone) not taking a good long inventory of oneself and not making the necessary changes. I'm beginning to understand, that empathy, is something that not everyone has. Sometimes it's family of origin based and sometimes perhaps it's really just personality based.
A lot of times these labels make it easier for people to leave relationships. "I was emotionally abused, I'm too co-dependant, etc." And many times that is a good thing. Sometimes one does just have to say, "I quit." But, other times those labels don't take in the grays and the shadows, the interplay of light and dark. They don't take into account our own ability to change things. For me, I seem uncharacteristically, for me, unable to make that final leap.
Perhaps if I could just SEE my H as THE emotional abuser and that is that, it would make it easier. But, I don't.
Now if he were behaving that way with my kids, perhaps, that would be a different story.
Emotional abuse can damage us in ways we can't even begin to fathom. I hardly fathom how damaged that I might be.
I see glimpses of it. I see it, then I don't, kind of thing.
I seem to be rambling. Your first post grabbed me though because I thought to myself, Frosty , sees me. She sees the complexity of the issues for me. She speaks to an undercurrent, that I can't seem to do justice to with just my words.
Communication can be such an imprecise thing. I know that I think I have expressed something so clearly from brain to post, only to read later, that it was interpreted a totally different way.
As you know, I can go on. (LOL) This topic of emotional abuse is one I am willing to explore. I've read many of the books. When my H was in the "acting out" stage of MLC, he was definately a text book case as an emotional abuser. But, before and after, well...
It all really boils down to: me focusing on me and becoming as strong emotionally, spiritually, physically and creatively as I can be. So that I can make the most of the life that God has given me. No matter who my H is in the matter, it is ME and my choices that I must focus on. It is such a challenge when I have been practicing unselfishness for at least 17 years now(when my D was born). Before then, I was fairly selfish. But I did have passion. I guess it is the pendulum swinging again. Too selfish, to Too self-sacrificing to being in the moment balanced and chosing at each given moment from strength of character as opposed to driven blindness.
But, there are so many ways to look at that as well.
That's why over analyzing is never good and taking action can help move things along.
Thanks for your thought provoking posts. I'm sure you got more then you bargained for, LOL.
Kansha, it strikes me that you spend a whole lot of time worrying about your h, and his words, whether they're good for you (because they force you to toughen up) or whether they're bad for you (because they're downright mean). That time, IMHO, could be better spent worrying about YOU. I think you have been closeted within your h's sphere for so long that you have almost lost any sense of reality. And it's become a distorted form of reality. People should not treat others the way your h treats you. That's MHO. And it might not be worth much. Kansha, get back to basics. You can still be compassionate, but you don't have to let someone tread too heavily. You can shield your kids from pain, but if you continue like this, and let h talk like this, they see not such a good view of life and marriage. And what's it doing to you? You say you used to be able to make yourself up and walk into anyone's office and convince them to take a chance on you. What's your h's abuse done to that glowing self-esteem? (Sorry, but I believe he is abusive. I don't care if he periods of great remorse, or periods of enlightenment, the overall image is one of abusive behaviour.) You're worth more than this, okay?
Yes, I'm a freelance writer, but there is NO money in it. Unless you can hook up with a PR company, and then you can make money. But writing for magazines and newspapers is tough. Not to discourage you, just to tell you what it's like. There's no reason why you can't start small though, while you're looking for other work, and do the odd article here and there. There's lots of help via books and internet stuff to tell you how to go about it.
Aww Alex, I just had some time on my hands, to hang out on the BB for a change and spent some time on this subject. Normally, I really do not allow myself to analyze or focus on my H at all. I got over that the first year or so! You caught me!
I have been strongly laying down the law with my H and went to the mat regarding his behavior towards me. I have put him on notice.
It wasn't easy and I had a couple of rough days.
I am still going on with my plan to have an independant source of income and find something satisfying for myself as well. I will then go from there.
My H actually does not "do" remorse. But he does learn overtime when the boundaries are drawn for him.
Well, this is a process. You are right, there is NO excuse for his behavior towards me! Thanks for the hard line.
Kansha, Saw your posting to me. My email is Snodderly@olg.com (I need your new email address!)
You sound great and I am hoping everyone is doing well. How are the children and the pups? When are you planning to visit this coast again? Take care of yourself! I still have my crystal ball sitting up on the shelf. Everytime I look at it, I think of our conversations and laugh!
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
