Print Thread
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 45
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 45
Hi - well I believe the D is busted but I am having a REALLY HARD TIME NOW keeping solution oriented and not allowing my insecurities, fears, etc from ruining all my efforts!!!! [Mad]

H sees a lot of changes in me but sometimes it is hard for me to keep "the past" from messing things up. When a sit. even smells like "the past" I can feel the anxiety and fear. Then I REACT and my H gets upset & withdraws some.

He had two ONS and an EA and he says he will do whatever to make me feel secure that he is trust worthy & that he is getting help for his problems. I have seen a lot of changes in him - lots of baby steps and some really BIG steps too BUT this nagging pain is still there!!!!

He works with the OW he had an EA with and he says that he does not have those feeling anymore - he admitted that it was the attention he liked and not her. We have talked about what she gave him that he needed that he was not getting in our M, etc, etc BUT he still remains friends with her - they eat lunch together almost everyday. He says he told her that he was staying to work on our M and she was upset. She is still in a bad R and H doesn't want to abandon her as a friend so she has someone to talk to.

I am trying to act "as if" but this really bugs me. They don't do anything outside lunch & he comes straight home, they do not have contact after hours,etc ------ Should I be so worried?

He is getting frustrated and is doubting my changes. I don't want that but I fear this friendship that they have. He said that he will not stop being her friend but only at work & he has told her that.

I do not want to loose my H over my fears but I don't want to be naive either.

HHHHHHHEEEEEELLLLLLLLPPPPP me make sense of this!!!

How do I get through this? how do I stay focused?

Thanks [Frown]

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,694
ANS Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,694
Hi purple,

I think you've answered your own question.

Just keep acting as-if his friendship doesn't bug you.

BUT

You hafta stop letting it bug you, too.

Part-2 of acting as-if is to convert the "as if" behavior into thinking. Only you can do that.

So, don't let H knows this bugs you, and stop letting it bug you. You're not being naive by doing this.

IMHO, an EA that he cut short is nothing to worry about.

She's now nothing more than a friend who happens to be female. You have to believe that.

All you have to do is to be a better friend. In order to do that, you have to let go of the suspicion.

Don't "focus". Just go with the flow.

Andy


Andy
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 45
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 45
Andy -

It's REALLY GOOD to hear from a guy. I have a female friend that basically said I was crazy to stay with him if he continued to have contact with the OW at all.

My H has never had many female friends and I believe that if it was always just a friendship (with no SPARK) that I would be able to deal with this MUCH better. I am fearful that he is keeping her in the wings just waiting for me to screw up. I told H this ( I know, I know bad DBing) and he flat out said "NO I AM NOT". He was upset that I felt that way.

He is very open with me about what they talk about and the bad R she is in - I wonder if she knows he tells me everything BUT in the other direction, I feel uncomfortable thinking that he may be doing the same with her - I mean telling her issues he has with us.

She is 11 years younger than H and of course youth is attractive AND Crisis + rescue = affair

H tells me that she continually tells H that my changes will not last - that urks me to no end because I know she still wants him GGGGGRRRRRR.

But even the marriagebuilders site says that the spouse who had the A should stop contact with the OP - even if it means moving to another state to accomplish this so that trust can be rebuilt in the M.

Do you know any good books on trust & forgiveness?? I am also considering a phone consultation when I can get the $$$

One thing that I saw as a big step ---- even though H decided to no move out & work on M he never put his wedding ring back on. I asked him last week if he thought he ever would. He misunderstood me & thought I was asking him to put it on & got upset. I explain that I just wanted to know if the ring held to many bad memories for him to wear again. He said that it's not the ring that makes the M but the trust between the people in the M. I agreed & dropped it though I really feel that the wedding ring is an outward expression that you are not afraid of others knowing you are married (I know it may be a little weird but I do). Well, Monday I took my ring off & put it in my pruse. Didn't do it in front of him or anything - he didn't notice till last night at dinner. He really wanted to know why & asked if I threw it away. I told him that I understood his explaination and that i felt that if he was not going to wear his ring that I waas not going to wear mine. I wasn't mean, spiteful or anything. Then I continued with dinner, etc & didn't bring it up again.

This morning he did not have his ring on BUT it was not on the dresser either. This morning on the phone he told me he put his ring on. I aked him why & he said "Because it is important to you" I told him he should take it off if it wasn't important to him. He said "It is important to me, just not as important as it is to you" I told him thank you & ILY - which he returned.

I took that as a good thing - I thought he would not put it back on because OW at work. She will see it at lunchtime HA!!!

Well, they will be at lunch together in about 10 minutes - I need to make myself busy to keep my mind off them together at lunch.

I still feel fearful that I will not be able to do this permanently. I know that she will keep needling at him & trying to pull him away from me every chance she gets. She is not a true friend - just a needy, clingly, manipulative little girl. [Razz]

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,694
ANS Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,694
purplekat,

I don’t think that the value of what I have to say is because I’m a guy, but rather because of the similarity of our sit’s. Here’s a link to my latest thread:

How can I listen if she won’t talk?

It has links to my other threads. Waaaaay too much reading, but if you read the initial posts on each one, you’ll get the idea of what I’ve been through.

My W detached from me and became close with a MF. Though a lot of DBers thought otherwise, there was never any EA. I was lucky enough that both W and MF have the strength of character not to let things go that far, but I had to act in a way so as not to let it happen.

Though the lack of EA made things easier for me, I still think that the advice I give you has merit for your sitch.

Firstly, please change your mindset. You saw how upset your H got when you implied that she is a potential OW. He’s open with you about what they talk about. You don’t want to lose that, and even more important – like you said, Crisis + rescue = affair. You don’t want to draw a line in the sand with them on one side, and yourself on the other.

She’s not an OW. She’s only a FF.

That’s what your H says. You hafta believe it. Fake it ‘til you make it, but work towards making this your reality. It’s crucial.

Secondly, realize that you cannot change his behavior, and that trying to do so will only drive a wedge between you. He will not stop contact with her, and he will resent any attempt by you to interfere with his friendship.

As to her not believing that your changes will last, it doesn’t matter. All that matters is that your H believes it. Even his beliefs are not as important as it seems since it’s normal for the spouse to disbelieve the changes. It takes time. The longer you persist, the more irrefutable the evidence is that they are permanent.

Be careful about game-playing. You removed your ring. Why? If you didn’t feel right wearing it, then you had a good reason. But, you removed it to make a point. It worked this time, and I can’t argue with success, but don’t make a habit of game-playing. Sometimes, game-playing is necessary. I’ve played the games myself, but the more you do it, the harder it is to get out of it.

It’s nice that he put his ring back on for you. Your H is capable of thoughtfulness. Nice.

quote:
Originally posted by purplekat:

I still feel fearful that I will not be able to do this permanently. I know that she will keep needling at him & trying to pull him away from me every chance she gets. She is not a true friend - just a needy, clingly, manipulative little girl.

You can do this permanently. You must convince yourself of that in order to convince your H. You’ll read a lot of posts in which people talk about how they pushed their SO away by being needy, clingy, and manipulative. The fact that his FF acts this way will work in your favour.

Don’t make the same mistake she’s making [Big Grin]

TTFN,
Andy


Andy
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 45
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 45
quote:
Originally posted by ANS:

Fake it ‘til you make it, but work towards making this your reality. It’s crucial.

You are so right Andy. I never realized the true power of positive thinking until I started to see the results of all my DBing coming around. Making things that you want to happen come true is VERY empowering!

I am looking forward to reading your thread (when my boss isn't looking [Big Grin] )

I did good at lunch - kept myself busy and when he called after lunch was over I didn't ask about his lunch or "her" at all. I was upbeat and kept the conversation lite. BUT I still had the urge to ask - I guess like you said, it will go away with a lot of practice.

I ready Michele's article on Forgiveness and it was helpful to me. I am going to try & stay focused on the positive things. He tells me that I have nothing to worry about and I have to give him the benefit of the doubt and not "go at him with the boxing gloves on"

I feel better for now - lunch is over [Big Grin] . Tomorrow is another day BUT IT'S FRIDAY and that's a good thing. I look forward to a nice weekend with H.

Thanks again Andy [Big Grin]

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,993
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,993
Hi!

I'd like to encourage you to read pbbutterflies thread. I may have her name wrong; she is a frequent poster to Wilma's thread {Bedrock) so you could get her name from there.

I am uncomfortable w your H having lunch w a woman he knows is having R problems. That Mar's venus dating at the office book mentioned how usually the woman is the one who signals that it is ok for the guy to physically approach (kiss).

I just can't sit here and say that it's ok for them to be friends. I trusted my H to stay within our marriage. I had now clue that the OW wouldn't have a problem stepping into mine. When I gave H some low cost changes I needed I said new cel, new beeper, new email. He contacted her and told her not to call him anymore because ANY CONTACT WITH HER WAS UNHEALTHY FOR HIS MARRIAGE. An example of a high cost change would have been for him to change jobs and us to move away from her.

People talk about methods of staying 'grounded' when you have to deal w the opposite sex in the professional world. One friend told me that he always slips in a mention of his wife in a complimentary fashion just so he can comunicate that he is in a committed R. Our C told my H that he sh place his hand on his stomach when talking w women.

Since my H's EA progressed to a PA we have to deal w piecing our trust and commitment back together.

The friend of your H is in a troubled R. She will be looking for a shoulder to cry on. She's emotionally needy and wants a friend. She doesn't seem to mind that it's the shoulder of someone elses H. Why do they have to have lunch together? Alone? Company lunchroom? Aren't there any single guys there or already D men.?

I hate sounding so negative but I have a problem w women who don't respect boundaries.

Do Michele's Butterfly effect. What small thing can you do that will result in a small (or not so small) change in his perception of you. Focus on building the positive bond between you.

Do you have kids? Stop being the mom and be his sexy wife.

Do you fix his lunch? Treesa could give you tips on how to snaz that up a bit.

My H told me 6 months after our bomb that if he'd know then what he knew 6 months later he would have come to me and told me he wasn't happy and that we needed to work on our M.

Our M had become stale and the friendship w her helped take away the pain. She made him feel accepted.

Look at your M. What needs to change?

I hope that within the month you and your H will have started a ritual of lunch dates or telephone calls during lunch. Sutle.

Good luck!

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 45
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 45
Hi Lily & thanks for your reply. This is what I am wrestling with as well. If I continue to DB & act "as if" but I really can never feel right about this - then am I being true to myself? What if he get the opinion that it's just fine and them all the sudden there are SEVERAL FF on the scene - not just this one? He says he needs me to trust him & not be insecure. I told him that there is a big difference between insecurity & thing I do not think are appropriate.

quote:
Originally posted by lily:

I hate sounding so negative but I have a problem w women who don't respect boundaries.

Myself as well & she is one of those people. She told him he had to choose between us but then when he did choose me she did not back off or go away, she is still hanging on.

I have definately been looking at our M and it was also stale & the friendship was gone for a long time. Infidelity caused trust issues & H was not honest. Her attention made him feel special but he admits that they have nothing in common. I think he feels sorry for her - I do not because I think she is still trying to get him.

I am trying to take Andy's advice and not bring it up but rather work on US and being a good friend to H. Give him lots of things to talk to FF friend about that we are doing together.

I wish he could get another job & get him away from her. I do not think it would last if they did not see each other everyday.

BUT - letting my H see that I am unhappy about this may just give him the ammunition to continue this friendship with her & I don't want that.

Like I said, if he didn't admit that he had feeling for her (despite how brief or for whatever reason) and if she was in a stable R I would not have a problem with this. When H told me all the problems she was having and has had in her life I said "IF she would like to talk to another woman about this - who has been thru a lot of the same stuff she has, I would be happy to talk to her" He waas shocked - I was very true in what I said & did want to help if I could & felt that if she wanted to interact with me as well then mostlikely she really did just want to be H friend & I could relax about there friendship. H told her what I said and she FLAT OUT refused! Told him it would never happen. When H told me this I said "Do you think it's a little strange that she will be your friend but not mine?" He said yes.

So I still am trying to figure out how to DB thru this but still be true to myself and what I believe is appropriate or not.

For now I will try not to bring her up and I never talk bad about her if H talks about her situation. I just wish she didn't exist - IS SHE STILL A SYMPTOM OR IS SHE A PROBLEM ALL IN HERSELF???

still confused but glad "lunchtime" is almost over for this week

OH ---- Lily what did you mean about jazzing up lunches? I do pack a lot of them for him since money is tight & I am such a good cook [Big Grin]

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 45
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 45
okay - so it's lunch time again & not doing so hot!!! Last night was good & this morning too. We have IM and he said he was going to Kroger's to get lunch. Well I know from someone H works with that he got OW a red rose from there & gave it to her a while ago. Well on the IM I said can you pick something up for me while U are there. He replied - "Sure What Do You Want" I replied "RED ROSE". He replied Ok and (I shouldn't have done this I know) but I put "Only One - for me" He replied "Ok"

So if Furball happens to be going to the store with him for lunch then she will see him get me the rose - if he really does it & doesn't stop after work to get it to "spare her poor breaking heart" OK so I shouldn't be doubting him like that - bad.

I sent him a "provocative" IM before he left. He seemed to enjoy it. I am trying to make sure that when/if they do lunch that I am not "forgotten" but not do it in a bad/obnoxius way. I usually pack his lunch except on Fridays.

I am so glad that this week is almost over!

So do you think that the red rose bit was too much?

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,694
ANS Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,694
OK, pk. I’m gonna back up a post, and let you know what I think.

quote:


If I continue to DB & act "as if" but I really can never feel right about this - then am I being true to myself? What if he get the opinion that it's just fine and them all the sudden there are SEVERAL FF on the scene - not just this one? He says he needs me to trust him & not be insecure. I told him that there is a big difference between insecurity & thing I do not think are appropriate.

What if there are SEVERAL FF who emerge? He’s not going to accumulate a harem. They’d be friends. Would there be more danger of an A if he hung out with a gang of people – even if they happen to be female?

You hafta take the leap and trust your H, pk. He says that’s what he needs, and that’s what you hafta give him. He needs several friendships. The most important thing for your R is for you to be the most important friend he has – regardless of gender. I firmly believe that you cannot truly love someone who is not your trusted friend. You cannot love someone who you do not respect.

In order for him to trust and respect you, you have to trust and respect him. I know you’ll say that his inappropriate behavior does not show respect for you, but you have to bear in mind that he does not see it that way, and therefore, he will not change his behavior. Since you cannot change him, it is you that must change. I know this sucks, but unfortunately, it’s the way things are.

quote:


She told him he had to choose between us but then when he did choose me she did not back off or go away, she is still hanging on.

This is not a bad thing. This is a good thing. Her thinking and behavior (which is also out of your control) means nothing! Your H chose you. Remember that.

quote:


I am trying to take Andy's advice and not bring it up but rather work on US and being a good friend to H. Give him lots of things to talk to FF friend about that we are doing together.

Actually, my advice is that it’s OK to bring up FF. It’s the context of the conversation that I’d be concerned about. You could ask how she’s doing – not to snoop – but out of concern for one of his friends. Don’t bring up his relationship with her. That’s a minefield. But, you know that she’s having problems and that she discusses them with your H. Show empathy for her. Wouldn’t that be a 180!

quote:


BUT - letting my H see that I am unhappy about this may just give him the ammunition to continue this friendship with her & I don't want that.

Absolutely right! If you want an intimate relationship with him, you cannot appear – in any way – controlling. This is especially true when it comes to his individual things such as friendships. He chooses his friends. He will not ask your permission to hang out with this person or that person. He will continue his friendship with her, and if you try to interfere, it won’t necessarily draw them closer together, but it will put a wedge between you and him.

It’s all relative. You’ve gotta be his best friend.

quote:


So I still am trying to figure out how to DB thru this but still be true to myself and what I believe is appropriate or not.

You be true to yourself by changing your perception – not yourself. You don’t have to twist yourself in knots to please him. You just have to accept him, show him respect, and realize that his perception of what’s “appropriate” doesn’t necessarily jive with yours, mine, Lily’s, or anyone elses.

Having said that, I have to admit that this is – after 1 ½ years of DBing – still a problem for me. Takes a lot of work. Lot of effort.

As to the whole rose thing…

Try not to be provocative – in the sense of provoking confrontation about how he behaves with “furball.” The other kind of “provocative” is great, though [Wink]

TTFN,
Andy


Andy

Moderated by  Michele Weiner-Davis 

Link Copied to Clipboard