Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: JDOllie My Story - 12/15/08 04:27 PM
I have been a silent observer - have read about a billion posts on here. Lots of really really good stuff. Have had very limited success with some of the tactics. Hard to do the "go dark" thing when you have two kids that you share - wife gets called into work, and I watch, etc. Anyway, here is my story. I'm completely open to advice at this point! I figured I'd give a little background, and then go chronological.

Background: wife was sexually abused from age of 5-11, 3 years by an uncle who also abused her sister. When he stopped, her sister took over. She also experienced a bunch of familial abuse - dad made fun of her for being flat-chested, she chipped her tooth, dad wouldn't fix, and made fun of. Mother never stood up for her, etc.

She got pregnant and had an abortion at 19 - into pot, dancing, partying, craziness. I met her, and she blew me off my feet. I grew up VERY religious, and after we got married, I started to push some of those traditions. It wasn't long after that I found a REAL relationship with God, but she has never let it go.

Anyway, fast forward to the problems.

August 2006 - says she wants divorce - abruptly gets incredibly cold, angry, resentful, bitter - curses at me, I make her sick, etc

Christmas 2006 - very loving/kind, warm

February 2007 - asks if we can "try again" - a week later, right back to angry vicious person

March - moves into another room in the house

April 2007 - files divorce

May 2007 - crawls into bed with me after a nightmare where our 6 year old kills herself. Asks if we can just stop the divorce - doesn't want to hurt kids, gets all excited and starts making plans for us to be together. About a week later - right back to the "alien"

Summer - great times, at the pool, eating together, talking, etc

Fall 2007 - starts schooling, very stressed

Christmas 2007 - her family (who she doesn't get along with) comes over, and she gives little hugs, pinches, smacks on the butt

January 2008 - agrees to counseling, goes to one session, and when the therapist says that we have to choose healing on our own, she won't go back.

February 2008 - says she needs to move out and have a "separation period" - we agree to 6 months

June 2008 - finally moves out, we agree on our own to the child support, etc

September 2008 - dismisses divorce, tells me that we should resolve things, not the court. Says that she would "never say never" to a relationship between us.

November 2008 - end of the 6 month separation - ask her if we can start with being "friends" - just get together as a family, play UNO, etc, see what happens. She refuses.

December 2008 - calls me to tell me that she wants to start dating someone, that she won't date me, that she needs someone who understands her, etc. She asks D8 and S6 to "let her" date - D8 is not dealing with it well. Also, she has now changed her mind about us working things out - I asked her not to date until we were divorced. Offered to do a dissolution, it would only take 30 days to finalize. She said dissolution "may not be her best option" - but she won't file divorce until she can afford it, which will probably be 2 years when she gets her RN degree.

That's my story - basically my current plan is to go dark, but it's hard when we are swapping kids every 3 days!

Any suggestions or comments? Very very happy to listen. \:\)
Posted By: ramcharger Re: My Story - 12/15/08 11:21 PM
I don't know if I can give the best advice but I feel for you. On the Divorce make sure that you tell her you understand why she feels that way but to start dating someone might not be in her best interest. This is hard to understand but she needs to be uplifted as well. Going dark can be done in this sitch. Just make sure you are the one who ends the conversation on a good note and end it when you feel it should. That is all I can think of but as I say I may not have given the best advice.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/16/08 10:58 PM
I appreciate it - the conversation thing is great, I've started doing that (ending on a good note), and I can tell a difference. Before she wouldn't even respond, now her last email was almost conversational.

I told her that I believe marriages should be respected, even if you didn't feel like it. I asked her what kind of lesson it would teach our children, but I told her that it was her decision.

Boy, I used to read about people having trouble going dark, and I would think, "Geez, just do it". Now that it's MY plan, I owe them an apology! It is not very easy.

Anyway, I have to talk about my D8 - W invited OM to dinner, and asked D8 and S6 if it was OK - D8 looked at her, and said, "Mom, no way! You barely know this guy!" Go baby! \:\)
Posted By: Amy M Re: My Story - 12/17/08 10:55 AM
JonF,

Welcome to the club none of us wanted to join!!! I wanted to offer some hugs and support. You will get a lot of that here. The greatest part is that every feeling you have, every thought, someone else here has felt and thought. You are not alone!!!

I appreciate your post on my thread last night. I don't know if you've followed my sitch, but I've been having some really great days and been feeling really good. Then, yesterday! It was the worst day I've had in I don't know when. So, thanks for stopping in with your "darkest before the dawn" comment...needed that last night!

In my opinion, the hardest part of any of our sitch's is detachment. And, even after you think you've done it, they do something crazy and suck you right back into caring too much about their actions. I tried "dark" for a while. It didn't work for me...I still have to interact daily because of the kids, and I didn't really know how to be "dark." In the end, what really has helped me is just getting a life of my own...having other things to do...other people to spend time with.

It sounds like your wife needs professional help. Unfortunately, you aren't even in a position to suggest that without making her angry. I think the best you can do is keep moving forward with your life as if she won't be part of it all the while praying that she'll find the help she needs to make herself whole.

Are the kids with her most of the time? I know how tough that has to be. As you likely gathered from my sitch...protecting the kids from this horrible business is so tough even if they live with you.

So, what kinds of things do you like to do? Do you have a hobby? Do you have close friends nearby?

I'll be following along and rooting for you, and I'll be praying for you and your family.

Amy
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/18/08 12:46 AM
Amy - I have just started on your sitch as well. Your post really struck me, so I just jotted a note last night. I like to read every post, so I can speak intelligently.

I have the kids Friday afternoon through Monday night - 50%/50% - so that is awesome. I can't understand men that are happy with every other weekend.

Anyway - I'm embarassed to admit that I need to practice the GAL. I own my own booming computer/web/programming business, so that's the extent of my hobbies.

However, I'm trying - I started working out, and have lost 13 pounds. I'm getting roller skates for my kids, and we are starting that up. Also, just joined the YMCA, so come on pool!

As far as going dark - I even practice it together. W came over to pick up kids past Monday, and she normally is only here for 15 minutes. Kids and I had gone to my folks, and I had been dark Sat, Sun, and Mon. She came in and stayed for hour and a half - was all chummy and cheery. Heh, I went upstairs, put away laundry, etc while she was hanging out with kids - probably for 30 minutes. Ended up probably saying 10 words to her - I was cordial, but distant.
Posted By: Amy M Re: My Story - 12/18/08 04:19 AM
Evening, Jon! I hope you had a good day. Mine was much better than yesterday!!!

Glad you have the kids this weekend...that makes things so much nicer. I try to stay busy when mine are away, but I miss them so much!!!

As for the GAL...well, everybody's different. I need to be around people all the time...so, I made it a rule not to turn down an invitation to anything. And, I haven't. Some of the things I've done haven't been all that much fun, but I've met some interesting people along the way.

You might have to force yourself a little at first, but, I think it's key to keeping your PMA.

I think things are much easier for me now that my H doesn't come to the house at all. When he was here...it was always a little awkward.

You posted on my thread about the ultimatum...did you mean you just gave it today? How do you feel about it? It was a very strong stand...I think it was good. It took me so long to make one...but, I felt so good once I did.

You and me are gonna both be fine...better than fine, Jon!!!

I'll check in with you tomorrow...sleep well.

Hugs!
Amy
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/18/08 06:47 PM
Yep, I'm lucky - I have the kids 3.5 days of the week, and keep them when they are sick, when W wants to work - I own my own company so have some flexibility.

I gave my ultimatum last Monday - week and a half. Since then, nothing has been said, but I get kids back on Friday, and they tell me everything. \:\)

Glad you're doing better - I was doing great last night, and got a punch in the stomach today. My kids attend a private school (nothing swanky) and the administrator called and left a message for W saying the letter she requested was ready. I'm just worried - I pay ALL the bills, including the school bill - and I can't imagine what she'd need from them, except maybe a financial statement to try and use in court. She thinks public school is "good enough" - but our schools around here stink.

Anyway, we'll see!
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/18/08 08:09 PM
P.S. Amy - I'm doing a great job at going dark. My idea to show that I was still committed to the marriage, but not taking any crap, was to leave up pictures of us on vacation, etc. My wife painted a picture of the two of us hugging, and it hangs in our entryway. I know you took wedding rings, took pictures, etc - did you take everything down
Posted By: Amy M Re: My Story - 12/18/08 08:49 PM
I took my ring off when I confirmed that OW was leaving her H and moving here. I left the pictures up. I did eventually take them all down. But, I waited for a while. I gave him time to see that I still thought of us as married...that he was still part of the family. He didn't seem to notice when I finally did remove them, but, then again, he hasn't been noticing a lot of what I do for a long time!!!

I think it's fine to leave them up. Every thing has it's time. You may find that after a while you just don't want to have them there anymore...or, she may find that she likes them and wants to come home so she can see them everyday! Who knows.

Sounds like you are doing all the right things as far as I know. Have you set DB goals for the R, and are you noticing progress towards those goals?

Don't worry about the call from the school. You can't control it, so don't waste energy on it. Although, since the call came to your house, you do have every right to ask about it, I think.

Take care of yourself and those kids!!!

Amy
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/18/08 09:45 PM
Funny you ask - I have been floundering the last 3 months, and it's mostly because of not having any goals, or anything like that - i.e. going dark, etc.

I set one very simple goal two days ago: having dinner together as a family. We used to do it ALL the time - like 2-3 times a week, and she has completely stopped it.

So, back to you, I've missed exactly your status - couldn't find it. Are you actually in divorce proceedings?
Posted By: Amy M Re: My Story - 12/18/08 10:00 PM
Nope...we are working on our settlement together. I have the draft in my hands. As soon as I add what we agreed to last week, I'll send it back for his final agreement. After that, when he can make time in his schedule, we'll file.

We are only using one attorney (hopefully), mine. So, I have to file. But, I didn't choose this so I intend to make him go with me to turn in the paperwork, etc. Should be very simple after that...90 days tops from start to finish.

I've given up the DBing to save the marriage mostly...except for the "dropping the rope" part. I don't see anyway to save a marriage when there's another person involved. I know there's a chance that the R they have won't last, but I can't just hang here and wait. I'm not made that way! So, I'll keep working on moving on...and, I'm doing just fine!!!
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/18/08 10:06 PM
So is it a "dissolution" then? That's what it's called in Ohio - when you basically agree on everything without attorneys battling it out, but you have an attorney throw in all the legalese.

You know, if it's something like that, the ONE good thing about it is that you don't end up fighting in court - typically that turns into digging up every little bit of dirt, and getting extremely dirty and nasty - typically ruins ANY good feelings you might ever possibly have.

I'm really sorry to hear where you are, but really glad to know you're OK. I dropped the ultimatum, and if I found out about another date, I will be right with you. I've offered a dissolution to W - said I would be willing to discuss/negotiate, and it would only take 30 days in Ohio to be final, but she said she didn't think it would adequately protect her.

Anyway, unfortunately, I may be right with you pretty soon - W's biggest issue is that she is self-destructively stubborn. She would go through divorce, and lose everything, just to do it.

I'll be thinking and praying for you - I hope you feel like me. My conscience is completely clear - I have done EVERYTHING humanly possible to save this relationship.
Posted By: Amy M Re: My Story - 12/20/08 05:45 AM
Hey, Jon!!! Happy Friday to you.

I'm out of town this weekend...visiting some of the girls I met here on the boards. A weekend full of fun and shopping!

But, I wanted to stop in and say, "hello" to you.

Yes, I honestly feel I have done all I can. My conscience is clear, and one day, when I have to talk to my boys honestly about what's gone on here, I'll be able to do it without any regrets on my handling of the situation.

I hope you have a great weekend!!!

Hugs to you!
Amy
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/20/08 11:25 PM
I'm having an incredible weekend - with family, took kids to roller rink try out their Christmas present skates, and it was a riot. I hadn't skated since I was like 15, so 15 years later, I found out that skating is like riding a bike, you never forget. I had such a blast...

Hope yours is great too!

P.S. I found out about another date, and am filing divorce, so bummer. I hate every minute of it, but I have to be an example to my kids, and I have to set boundaries. The wimp in me wants to say, "No, man, you should have said you would just frown very hard, but you gotta do what's right." Sheesh.
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/20/08 11:41 PM
{{{Jon}}} Ugh..I hate to read that about the dating and having to set your boundary..I am one of the gals Amy was hanging with this weekend and I realized somehow I had NOT seen your thread, tho, I know Amy has been taking good care of you..she's great \:\)

Sounds like you had a GREAT time, which is good..it's amazing how much we "forget" that it's okay to have fun and be like a kid when we "grow up" isn't it? \:\)

Tawnya
Posted By: SingleDad Re: My Story - 12/20/08 11:49 PM
JonF - What a rollercoaster ride, huh. There are so many similarities among the WAW its scary. Except my W left and has never wanted to come back - but she does call me most days to discuss our daughter.

Learned she is having an affair which I thought was over... but its back on.

I know I will never have a chance to starting over as long as she has an OM.

What you are calling Dissolution I call mediation... both spouses meet with a mediator to agree on terms - final document then is reviewed by both sides attorneys - saves a lot of money when attorney's aren't using legal means to get both spouses to fight with each other and rack up the legal bills.

I am also of the view that you need to fight for what is right, and not just bow down to what the WAS wants, expecially while they are having an affair. It will help you sleep at night and for years to come.

As far as the mediation - be sure to fight for Joint legal and physical custody with as close to 50/50 parenting time as possible - do not limit yourself to becoming a McDonald's dad with weekday evenings - get the overnights we well.

Good luck to you.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/21/08 03:08 AM
Tawyna,
Thanks for your comments, and stopping by! I went and read up on some of your history. Your have been through so much more than me, and handled it so much better, I feel sort of sheepish.

I could only find the thread on your signature though?

Anyway, yeah, it stinks - I almost feel like I'm starting over. Although I will absolutely follow the divorce through to completion, I hope I won't have to.

I'll be honest - I have not, up to this point, actually and completely started DBing honestly, and I can see fruit already - although my situation seems like the worst it's ever been. \:\)

Keep in touch!
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/21/08 03:13 AM
SingleDad:
It is sad - the positive is this: for whatever reason, the odds have been tilted heavily in my favor. It would be almost impossible for me to not get 50% or full custody - I prefer 50% because I want kids with their Mom. I am well protected financially mostly because W made several statements that our marriage ended previously, that our marriage is just a piece of paper. Hurtful statements, but in Ohio, they stand up in court!

She doesn't know this, but she will get very little, will get no part of my business I own, etc - really really screwed, but you know, you make your bed, you lie in it!

I have the kids now over half the week, and love every minute of it!

Thanks for commenting!
Posted By: Amy M Re: My Story - 12/21/08 06:25 AM
((((Jon))))

I hate that you found out about the date. But, I think standing your ground is likely the best way to play it. You can't share her, and I'm almost certain that she won't work on the marriage if there's someone else involved.

I'm praying for you and your kids. Maybe things will turn around for you before the papers are completed!!!

Skating...wow...you are a very brave man!!! I'd be so scared I'd kill myself...I mean, I wasn't very good at it even when I was a kid. Can't imagine how bad I'd be now.

Love to you!!
Amy
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/21/08 04:27 PM
{{{Jon}}} Don't feel sheepish at all..goodness you are going thru so much too..we all are...

Thank you for reminding me I needed to change my post in my signature LOL \:D

Tawnya
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/21/08 10:55 PM
Wow, I was reading a few of your older posts, and they are great, because they are right where I am - you were talking about H taking care of dog, etc.

I have been paralyzed in fear of not doing everything W asks - I keep W's dog over the weekend when she drops off kids, feed him, etc - I was just thinking about telling her that we are getting one for our "family", and she'll need to take care of him. She never walks him, never brushes him, he has hot spots that she doesn't take care of, it's sad. So we'll have a new cute puppy to play with! I'm so excited.

Also, I bought kids a Wii for Christmas, and she asked me, "Is this going to stay here at home?" As if, the kids would be bringing it to her apt - all she got them was a $10 MP3 player. It will NOT be going over there, and I don't give a flip if she poor-mouths - guess what? She wouldn't have to be poor right now!

Also, she has always hated our lineoleum kitchen floor, and I can understand why since I have to mop it now! \:\) The next Friday she comes over to drop off kids, she is going to see a brand-new tiled kitchen floor.

Wow, I haven't felt so good in 2.5 years- and I'm loving it!

This on top of this past weekend where she told me the house looked great - the cleanest she had ever seen it. Not that I ever let it get really dirty.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/21/08 11:00 PM
AMY,
Thanks so much for your kind thoughts and words! Does ((((Jon)))) mean hugs? I've been trying to catch up on some of the signs and abbreviations. If it does, thanks for the hugs! If not - aaaaaaawkwaaaard! \:\)

I was proud of myself skating -I could still skate backwards, I could still "surf" (where you put your skates with the front wheels pointing left and right in a straight line and you skate like that) - it was a blast, and a good workout for this Christmas food.

Two major 180s for me - I always threatened divorce before, and then whimpered around about it. I always threatened to leave W completely alone, and never did. I have JUST started going dim, and GALing, and I'm seeing differences in her already. I was the world's best at ALMOST doing a 180, and ALMOST going dim.

She still says she has "no desire to be with me", and still is sort of hanging around with OM, but she hasn't ever expressed any interest in anything - now she is complimenting, asking about stuff.

Muahahaha, I love having back some control of my life!

Thinking and praying for you too! Good luck recovering from this weekend!
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/22/08 03:26 AM
{{Jon}} YOu made me laugh so hard with that "if not, awkward"..LOL..YES the {{ }} are hugs..or, if you read some other guys' threads they are "chick hugs"..but don't listen to them (they secretly like them too ;\)

Aww..thank you for reading up on my posts..I have another thread that is most current you can read it here if you so desire \:\) Newest Thread

Yes..we've kinda gone around about the dog, and congratulations on a new puppy..HOW exciting and fun \:\) The last time we talked about it I told him he just really NEEDED to look for a place when he moved to take the dog with him..if I could get a dog for me, it'd be a cute little dog that's not HUGE for us to take care of \:D

As far as the stuff you get, I think you are absolutely right to keep it at your place..if it was the other way around, she wouldn't be letting you hang onto it \:\)

AND a new floor too..wowowow..you are doing so well and sounds like you are really enjoying yourself..THAT is fantastic!

Tawnya
Posted By: Amy M Re: My Story - 12/22/08 01:54 PM
Morning, Jon!!!! And, yes, as Tawnya said...the (((((Jon))))) are hugs just for you. One of my primary love languages (hopefully you've read the book. If not, you should before you even think about another R...with your wife or anyone else!) is physical touch so I give lots of hugs. I have to say in this virtual world, they aren't quite as good as real ones, but they can still make you feel warm and cozy once your recognize what they are and how they are intended.

And, I know what you mean about feeling good. I'm starting to really feel good too. There's much less tension in my house. Much less! In fact, even my S7 said the other day, "Mom, we do a lot more fun stuff now that Dad is gone." The crazy part is, I didn't really feel the tension when he was here...just know it was there cause I feel it's absence now. You know what I mean?

One of the best things I ever heard from a therapist was about the re-writing of history...how the WAS doesn't remember anything good in the M...that helps them justify their leaving. This therapist also told me that we as LBS' tend to rewrite a little too, and we likely remember things way better than they were to support our desire to stick it out.

Good for you on the house and the tile. That will be fun to show off. If you run out of chores at your house, maybe you could stop off here. I don't keep house very well!!! I tried for a while after H left, and then I realized, that it mattered to him, not so much to me...so, since he's with OW and not here, I don't have to worry so much about it. Not really DBing, but, hey, more important things to do!

You sound great! Keep up the PMA this week.

Amy
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/23/08 12:29 AM
{{{{Tawyna}}}},
I gave you some hugs back - I'm an extremely affectionate person, actually. W and I have a weird reverse thing - from sexual abuse, she is very cold and emotionally shallow, and I'm a big hugger, love everybody.

Glad I gave you a laugh - I'll catch up on that thread. I'm trying to poke my nose around - I feel like an old hand in reading emotions, etc, but I feel like a green newbie on actually putting things into practice. Only I could spend 2.5 years accomplishing nothing!

Our dog is an 85 pound red golden retriever - just the sweetest thing. I'll probably get a dog like that; my friend has a 40 pound blonde who is about perfect. They are the best, sweetest, most loyal dog - "Clifford" is lying on my feet right now.

The best thing about the floor is that we have been wanting to do it for 3 years - but I can't wait to see W's expression when she walks in. I'm not doing it FOR W, but the side benefit of seeing her face is going to make it oh, so sweet.

See ya - thanks for the hugs!
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/23/08 12:36 AM
This is probably bad, but I have no idea what my LL is.

You would think finding out about dating, I would be in the depths of despair, but it has been an awesome week! My S6 just randomly said, "Well, at least Mom doesn't scream and say bad words anymore." Made me feel great - I have NEVER yelled in our entire marriage, or cursed in front of kids, etc. \:\)

Then, OM came for dinner with kids, and they were unimpressed. Barely mentioned him, D8 said he was "shy". That made me feel good too - I had been so worried that they would think the was the best thing since sliced bread.

I do tend to think on the good things - I not only don't hold onto bad memories, I don't even recall them happening at all. W will bring stuff up, and I couldn't even tell you if it was true or not, so I just stand there and look sheepish. It is SAD that we have been M 9 years, and she can remember stuff from 1st year of marriage!

The tile is gonna be so great! I will swing up to your house as soon as I finish mine - that'll probably be 2028, so be warned!

I enjoy cleaning and stuff actually - I keep things super clean, but I have a hard time balancing running a business, having kids from Fri-Mon (my time off), and getting extra stuff done, like putting down a floor, etc.

My PMA is through the roof, and best of all, the stuff that used to make my stomach twist into knots is barely bothering me!

{{{{Amy}}}} <- hugs! \:\)
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/23/08 03:09 AM
{{Jon}} Me too on being an affectionate, huggy person..as I'm sure comes to no surprise to anyone reading my posts on the board since I do the hugs to everyone \:D

And YOU know..Amy's house is below mine, statewise, so I could use some new tile too ;\)

By the way..I want your PMA..that is so fantastic and amazing, you just sound GREAT, even with knowing the kids met the OM and all that..wow is all I can say \:\)

Hope your Christmas week is wonderful and let us know how the tiling goes!

Tawnya
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/23/08 03:36 AM
You know one thing that happened yesterday - I laughed until I cried. One of those but-gusters where you can't stand up, and your stomach hurts, and you have to pee?

I don't know how well it'll translate funny-wise on here, but I'll try:

S6 is just a funny kid. We were staying at my parents, and I was making S6 and D8 brush their teeth, but parents only have 1 bath, and it was occupied by Papaw. Well, Papaw was doing #2, if I may be crass, and he forgot to turn on the fan.

I'm just hearing this from the kitchen where I'm dicing potatoes: So he came out, and S6 went running in there ahead of his sister and girl cousins. He hollered, "Boys go first!" and ran in. I hear silence for about 3 seconds (I think his brain was registering what was wrong), then a loud "Uuuugggghhhh", and he came running out, and said, "OK, boys DON'T go first" and ran off.

I was crying, and holding myself up on the counter I was laughing so hard. I'm sitting here laughing just typing it up again - I hope it translates well, it was that funny.

I have a wonderful family, beautiful and loving kids, and a great life - W is not going to ruin the wonderful things that I have. If she chooses to leave for good, she leaves behind wonderful memories, a beautiful family, and a great life.

I'm not really angry any more, I honestly pity her. She is trying so hard to fill her life with crap - keeps herself non-stop busy so she doesn't have to think. It's very sad. She has missed kids' first camping trip, their first roller-skating, many holidays, etc - sad.

Ok, now I made myself sad after laughing. Hah, but I'm going to put a smile on my face, and put away laundry! \:\)

As far as house fixing up, I'm trying to finagle time to just fill holes in wall, and touch up paint! Luckily I have a good, handy friend that is going to help me out - we've worked out an arrangement where he does time-consuming stuff, and I do "homework" - sort of like Trading spaces...

See ya!
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/23/08 03:40 AM
Jon..LOL..you did make me laugh with that "uh..on second thought..boys don't go first" LOLOL..your poor son!

You know, that is my husband too with the having to fill his time with so much work (is his time filler) that he doesn't have to think..he even said that very thing to me about a month or so ago..that is why he is working so much so he doesn't have to think..

That's very cool that you have a handy friend to help you, well except on trading spaces your friend would come in and fix your room up without you helping and you have to fake a smile at the end and go "ooh I love it" and then try not to kill your neighbor after the show goes off \:D

Tawnya
Posted By: Amy M Re: My Story - 12/23/08 05:11 PM
Morning, Jon! You do sound so good. And, I got a laugh out of your story too!

I'm glad the kids weren't impressed with OM. And, I guess the best you can do is make sure they know that the R with OM is not appropriate...Tawnya told her son that even though OW was a "friend" of dad's that the type of friendship they shared was the kind you should have only with your spouse. I liked that explanation. Her son's older than your kids or mine, so, I don't know how that explanation would work, but, I thought it was worth mentioning in case you haven't seen that particular post on her thread.

And, on the LL book...you should read it. Even if things don't work out here, you'll have another R one day. Plus, it's just good to understand yourself better!

Have a great day! I hate it for you that you don't have the kids for Christmas...at least I have my boys...they would have cramped H's style on this ski trip with OW so he didn't ask to take them!!!!

((((Jon)))))

Amy
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/23/08 06:25 PM
(((Amy))), {{{Tawnya}}},
If you note, I even customized your hugs above. I'm pre-loading this box with hugs because I need some advice. Sort of am not sure what to do at this point. Maybe I need to re-read DR book.

W started "dating" OM about 3 weeks ago. She said it is just friends, and they are going slow - even said all they've done is hold hands. Not sure if I believe, but oh well. I'm proud - I have not asked a SINGLE thing, she has offered - which is sort of weird in itself. Usually don't people try to hide OM/OW?

Anyway, I have gone dim - basically am not calling/talking in anyway. If she calls to talk to kids, I hand them the phone, and I don't take it back. She started texting me about being sick this weekend, and putting plastic on her windows because it was drafty and cold. So, I asked if she needed anything, and asked if windows were double-paned.

Then I didn't say anything else. Is that an appropriate response in light of OM? I know you can't work on your own R if OM is involved, so now what? I'll admit - I'm Mr. Fixit, but I'm a bit confounded now! In my 2.5 years, have not dealt with OM. Also, it is a weird thing - not really a romantic relationship, even though she has brought him to meet kids.

I'm continuing the going dim - I know that she'll either move on with dork, or miss me. But what are good tactics? \:\)
Posted By: SingleDad Re: My Story - 12/23/08 06:35 PM
I think going dim is more for you than W. Protects you from saying anything hurtful that you can't take back later. Keeeps you from learning more than you want to know.

Nothing you can do. W will do as she pleases. Saying anything is controlling.

Yet - I can't stop. Everytime I learn more about OM from my D3 - I get more needy and R talk. Admittedly I am a failure at this.

Most important is to do what you feel is right and protect your kids - that way you can sleep at night.

If there is any contact with W - it needs to be as pleasant as possible - but I also think you can't merely approve of what she is doing and go along with it.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/23/08 08:11 PM
I think going dim helps with W too - it can trigger curiosity, make a point that you can live without them, and "absence makes the heart grow fonder". I believe the separation time can help them reflect on positive things as well. I think the hard part is being patient - they will need to go through a period of time where they are relieved to be alone. This, for me, is the hardest part. Also, I have had at least three counselors tell me that W will have to go through a relationship, maybe two, before she will have any concept of what we had.

So, lucky me, just sit back and wait! \:\)

My thought to you - don't even TALK about OM with D3. If my kids bring OM up, I just nicely switch the subject. What's the point in knowing anything? If it negative, I would just torture myself with it. Unless kids are reporting something bad, I just change subject, and make it into something fun.

I've made it abundantly clear to W that divorce is wrong, she is hurting kids, and having a relationship is an affair. Even if it is just "friends" if there is a romantic tilt, then no way.

So, I've filed divorce, cut off contact, and when we do talk, I'm pleasant but very distant.
Posted By: SingleDad Re: My Story - 12/23/08 08:29 PM
JonF - the sitting back and waiting through the affairs is the hardest part. I think W has been with this OM since before the bomb was dropped nearly a year ago. I do not think W will ever see any concept of what she has lost. Maybe we didn't have a great marriage, but it was steady and reliable.

I did not bring up OM with D3. D3 mentioned something about "Buddy" (thinking it was someone at school) and she replied "Buddy is mommy's friend who she sleeps with" - I was furiuos for the past week trying to convince my W that I should not be learning such events from my D3 and that my W's morals have become nill and bad influence on my D3. I have expresssed my anger toward W over this issue and impact on D3.

As far as going dim. I agree with you depending on the situation. If W is not seeing anyone else then I agree with you. But If they are serious with OM, then going dim makes it eaiser to continue the affair without any guilt and without any interference - thinking that if it doesn't bother you, all the better. My W even wants me to date others so I can be happy too - and thus also leave her alone. It's just not right.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/23/08 08:51 PM
I apologize, I didn't mean to say you were bringing up subject with D3 - just think it's better to ignore. I know for certain W is not sleeping with OM, and it still bothers me, because my kids now have that confusion, etc, in their lives. W gets furious because I tell kids D is wrong, being with someone else while married is wrong, etc. Probably a little harder to reason with 3yo.

Here's the way I look at it - if the choice is to pester, and point out how wrong W is, or go dim, I KNOW for CERTAIN pestering isn't going to accomplish anything. If W has any morals or feelings left, then the going dim is the only thing that will accomplish that. If she takes going dim as an approval of what she's doing, then she is warped, and justifying things to make her behavior OK.

My point is that W is going to do what she wants - if I continue to pester, she'll do it all the more thinking that I'm trying to control her. I have clearly stated my opinion on affairs - she knows how I feel. I have clearly stated my opinion on marriage - she also knows how I feel.

I have ALWAYS been there for her previously, and now I have told her that if she is with OM, regardless of the nature of the relationship, we cannot have any discussions about anything. I'm being pleasant, and have completely dropped all communication with her. I'm in for the long haul, divorce isn't quick!

P.S. In my state, you can actually file in court to have W barred from having any overnight visitors until D is final. Didn't know your marital status?
Posted By: marriedCrazy Re: My Story - 12/23/08 08:54 PM
Originally Posted By: SingleDad
As far as going dim. I agree with you depending on the situation. If W is not seeing anyone else then I agree with you. But If they are serious with OM, then going dim makes it eaiser to continue the affair without any guilt and without any interference - thinking that if it doesn't bother you, all the better. My W even wants me to date others so I can be happy too - and thus also leave her alone. It's just not right.



Even if you AREN'T ok with the affair, I believe being dark or dim helps with detachment. Detachment gives you the ability to work on making yourself stronger. I found in the early stages of my sitch; once I went dark and dropped the rope, I was able to concentrate on making ME happy. The W certainly wasn't concerned with it, whether I talked to her or not. SD, my W also wanted me to date. This is to help free her of the guilt she has for what she's doing. Plus I also believe it legitmatized what she's doing by bringing me down to her level. I've never chosen to date. I'm not prepared to take her back either; just waiting out the process.

For me going dim has saved me even though I disapprove of her actions. We only talk in the terms of finances, kids, and the associated logistics of each.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/23/08 09:20 PM
Hahhahaha, completely random selfish evil thought! I just thought about what I'd said. W told me she is putting plastic over her cheapy apartment windows because they are drafty, and I'm having someone come put in a new tile floor in my kitchen! Muahaha, man, my PMA is through the roof, people!
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/24/08 12:52 AM
I'm the posting king today!

I'm very proud that I'm actually going to vent/journal on here, and I'm taking it from an email I was going to send to W. I did not send it. I rationalized it by saying it was about kids, but it's not - my point was to show her how awful she is and what she is doing to kids.

I am worried about D8.

She has said some strange things.... She said last week: "I just want my Mom and Dad back" and cried very hard. Last few days she was super snuggly, very loving, reading with me, we talked many times for a long time just about nothing - books, Barbies, roller skating, when I was a kid. Literally hours of time, lots of snuggling, hugging, very loving - it was awesome!

Then the last couple of days, after we got home, she got really weird - very standoffish. She said she was going to tell W I said she was "kookoo". This is completely and categorically untrue, but W WOULD go kookoo if she heard that.

I told D8 I believe that divorce is wrong because two people promise each other and God to be with each other forever, even if there are problems. I also told her that I believe that it is wrong to have a relationship with another person - that should be what the mommy and daddy do together. I also told her that "I love Mommy dearly" and I think she is a "wonderful person" - I told her that W obviously felt differently and that was OK - it didn't mean that W was a bad person.

W will hate that, but I have to raise my kids the way I believe God wants me to - and I need stand up for me, and what I believe is right.
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/24/08 03:22 AM
{{Jon}} Sweet I get a customized hug..I do feel special..thank you very much \:\)

I do have to say I agree with you and with MC about the detachment, I had not really had the opportunity to detach very much with hub still at home until this past week, since he was gone from Thurs night until tonight..and I do have to say that it was interestingly not as "freaky" as I thought..and, like I said on my thread, I dunno that I was totally looking forward to him being back and us going back to the "same crap different day" routine..so I have to say that I had a good weekend with the kids and with Amy and SMW (except for the feeling like total crap LOL)..

I told my son and my daughter pretty much exactly what you said to your kids..I am sad that your daughter is having a "weird time", and I wish I knew how to help with that..I'm sure that Amy and some others with younger kids will know what to do/watch for, say to help \:\) I think, in the end, just YOU being you will help more than anything!

By the way here is your posting king crown :::passing the crown:::

Tawnya
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/24/08 04:08 AM
Hah, glad you made it, I'll get the juicy details on your thread.

Glad to hear I was close with what I told the kids, of course, W is furious, and says it was "creepy", but tough patooties, honey, get used to it...

Well, I will probably get kicked off of here for flooding the servers, but I had another awesome thought.

Boy, this going dim thing must be really clearing my head!

D8 was telling me how W was frantically looking for a potato peeler last week, because she was making dinner for OM for first time, and was making mashed potatos. Anyway, tonight, D8 and I made REAL mashed potatoes together! Literally mashed because W took our mixer when she left. D8 peeled, I diced, and cooked, and D8 mashed them (with help from me).

What is funny, and even better because I realized this in hindsight - W makes INSTANT mashed potatoes for kids - but goes out of her way to make REAL mashed potatoes for OM.

I guess that kind of shows where priorities are, eh? Not a bash session, just a realization moment.

My PMA continues to sky-rocket, even after I just mopped on hands and knees (stupid Pergo doesn't look right unless you Windex it). \:\)
Posted By: sandi2 Re: My Story - 12/24/08 12:32 PM
Hi Jon, I sort of met you over on AmyM's thread. I'm Sandi and I was an almost WAW. I am concerned that unless your wife receives professional help for the abuse she suffered growing up that she is not going to find the peace and stability that she needs to maintain a R with anyone. Why would she not go back to see that counselor after just one visit, did she say? I think she needs somebody higher up than just a "counselor" for her problems, but you can't force her to go. If you decide to stand for your M, you are in for a bad rollercoaster ride. If you "drop the rope" then you may be able to move forward and find peace for yourself and try to give the children some type of stability. That would be my concern......as I can see that the children ARE your concern that they do have stability in their life. That is very, very hard to do under these circumstances where they are getting shifted around every three or four days. I don't know the laws in your state, but do you think you could get full custody of the children? I know that it is popular now days for D couples to do the "co-parenting" thing, but I don't know how children would ever feel "settled" moving back and forth every few days. I understand though, that the parent that would just get them on weekends would feel cheated and I may be thinking very old fashion, it's just that I feel so badly for the kids these days. I can't imagine being a child and going back and forth between two houses all the time.

Well, I apologize. I sure did not make you feel better by expressing MY feelings, did I? I know this is killing you and I can tell by your posts that you try to take special time with the kids and that they are important to you. That is one thing I have noticed here on the DB board about so many dads.....their children ARE the most important thing to them, whereas years ago it was just kind of "understood" that the W would have the kids to raise and the dad would just see them every other weekend......which certainly is not enough. In a case like yours where the mother is the one that is very unstable, she certainly does not need to have full custody. So, I don't know what the best answer to that would be. It is just hard any way you look at it.

Jon, I wished I had good advice for you, but all I know to say at this point is to continue to study (not just read) the DR book, read the threads here on the board and post to others so you will get aquainted with them and it will build up your support group. You will be surprised how that will give you strength. You will make friends here if you give it a chance. You can come here and vent or journal anything you want. It's a good idea to tell us that is what you are doing if you are venting and don't want advice (lol) or you may get it. But, if you are seeking suggestions or advice and if any of us know what to say, we will do our best. If we don't know.....well, you will know that we are here in your corner.

Do you have a plan in motion? There are more than one way of approaching your DB plan of opperation. I gathered by scanning over your posts that you are trying to go dark, but as you said, that is hard to do switching the kids back and forth, but you can certainly "detach"!

This is Christmas Eve morning and I can't believe another year has rolled around. I have told some others what my New Year's resolution is going to be......and I realize you don't know me, so you won't really understand the reasons behind mine, but this can apply to anyone in any stitch. I will invite you to join me in the same resolution.....and that is that I resolve to be the best I can be and do the best I can do under whatever circumstances come my way. You know, if we are the BEST we can be......that is ALL that we can be.....what more could be expected?

I wish you well, Jon. I hope you will have a Merry Christmas in spite of your circumstances and just stay focused on what Christmas is all about and not be consumed with your stitch. Try to do this for the kids.

I hope you will visit me. I am over in the "Piecing" forum under Sandi is in Piecing and Things are Gtting Better.

Take care,
Sandi
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/24/08 07:09 PM
Prolly venting/journaling to myself. A mixed bag of feelings today.

1. First Christmas without D8 and S6
2. Stood up to W today - I had kids until 2:30pm, and she texted at 11:30am wanting to come get them. I said, "I'm really enjoying spending time with them, and since it's the first time we won't be spending Christmas together, I want to be with them as much as possible." Then I said she could get them at 2:00. \:\)
3. Took D8/S6 to Bob Evans, sort of a tradition. Invited W to come, said we are leaving in 15 minutes, and left. She came but it was HORRIBLY AWKWARD. I was smiling, told her funny story about S6. She didn't eat anything, and left when the food came. Made a big deal about how she just came to see kids while they had lunch with Daddy.
4. She came to pick up kids just now, and didn't even look at me. Didn't wish Merry Christmas, didn't even say goodbye, really didn't say anything, wouldn't come past the front door. I'm very proud because I didn't say anything either - I was polite and friendly at the restaurant and she was nasty. She's probably mad that I didn't roll over and let her come get kids early, I'm loving it! I would NEVER have stood up to her before! \:\)

Cool thing is that I realize that either I'm getting to her, or she is a heartless robot, and either way, I win! Hah!

OK, now I got that out of the way, putting PMA back in place, and heading to parent's house to have a good time!
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/24/08 08:52 PM
{{{Jon}}} So good for YOU that you did that, telling her that no you wanted your alloted time, even offering to let her come with you guys to lunch..that was nice..

I hope you have a great time at your parent's house!! \:\)

Tawnya
Posted By: sandi2 Re: My Story - 12/24/08 10:07 PM
Yey!! You must stand up to her just like that! She won't like it....but that is beside the point (lol). She has to respect you....that is a must! If she is allowed to walk on you...then she won't respect you. Respect comes first....the admiration. You want both. Next time it is your turn to have the kids under these circumstances, I don't think I would invite her along and if she should ask why....then simply tell her that you did not like her manners the last time. Always speak in a calm voice b/c that shows control. She is trying to push your buttons and make you lose control. She tested you when she called wanting the kids early to see if you would cave. Good for you!! A+

Keep up the good work.

Sandi
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/24/08 10:29 PM
Thank you so much for your comments Sandi! I'm also very torn on the co-parenting thing, and you voiced my concerns. The kids are settling in pretty well, and for what it's worth, W and I have been pretty good about keeping schedules, and being very fair. Kids love W, and I don't want to keep them away.

She is truly doing some regrettable things, but so far it is the just the D, EA, etc, that are hurting them by proxy - and she has completely insulated herself from the truth of those hurts.

Anyway, she went to a counselor like 5 times - and pronounced herself healed.

I have switched from going dark to detaching, and I have just detached about 5 days ago, so the hard times are a'comin! I'm steeling myself for them, but am committed completely. I'm already starting to see W getting disgruntled the couple of times I've stood up to her, so, we'll see!

I'll definately get over and catch up with you!
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/24/08 10:38 PM
Hah, I think I'm getting the hang of this.

W's parents think I'm awesome, and love me to death. I haven't been in communication much with them due to all of this crap, and I called today and wished them a Merry Christmas.

W is extremely paranoid - thinks everyone is talking about her (guilty?) \:\)

I texted her, and just said that I had called them, and didn't want her to be paranoid.

She texted back, "Don't do that".

So I said, "I did do it, and I will continue. I think alot about your parents, and they are my children's grandparents."

Then I said, "I don't mean to sound harsh, and I understand that you may feel uncomfortable with it, and I hope you are able to find peace with it."

HAHAHAH, doing what I WANT to WHO I want, WHEN I want, and being drippy sweet about! Only thing that could get better is if my kids out her to her parents about the OM. They would flip out!

I'm going off singing right now! \:\)
Posted By: SingleDad Re: My Story - 12/24/08 11:21 PM
JonF - I too am finding this time of year rough.

I had similar situation as you. I asked my W in August - For my birthday I wanted to go out to dinner as a family. She went - but was as uncomfortable as heck. I also think she hated that my D3 was so attached to me and avoided her. Needless to say W was out of there quickly.

Only other time together was the day after Thanksgiving - helped decorate the xmas tree - she was also very uncomfortable. And was very critical of me the whole time.

I mentioned to her 3 weeks later how critical she was and that since you walked out, I can raise my daughter the way I think is best.. If you want me to raise her to your liking, then we need to do it altogether as a family. She yelled out "well then I'll never spend time together if you don't like it".... In actuality she is with OM and uses any excuse she can.

When W has OM - There is nothing that can be said to change the situation.
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/25/08 12:27 AM
{{{Single}}} I agree, it seems any excuse will do, like "oh, the wind is blowing from THAT direction..ok, well that just won't do" LOL..

I hate the awkwardness of it all..just posted on my thread about us going to dinner as a fam tonight and the awkwardness of that..blah!

{{Jon}} Totally love that you are doing so well and it sounds like you are handling things perfectly..esp if you get an A+ from Sandi \:D

Tawnya
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/25/08 01:10 AM
And another good point - I invited W, and she came. Although it was pretty sucky, it was my goal. "Have dinner/lunch together as a family."

Goal accomplished, considering that she would have instantly turned down an invite.

My next goal: "Completely detach and allow W to initiate a friendly conversation - I'm sure any such conversation would start with kids, but I want to see it segue. I don't care if we talk about the birds..."
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/25/08 01:38 AM
Jon..good point to look at the positive side of that, and remember SHE was the one who was awkward, not you..that says something \:\)

Jon, I remember when I decided that I wasn't going to ask my husband ANYTHING and to make him start a convo with me, it was so interesting, we went 2 days (remember we were are in the same house) and I would go into my room when he got home..well after 2 days he comes into the room and starts to tell me some stuff that he didn't have to tell me and he left and I was like "whoa..that does work" LOL

Tawnya
Posted By: Amy M Re: My Story - 12/25/08 06:58 AM
((((((Jon)))))))!

I'd say the fact that she came to lunch was a small victory. I did Thanksgiving lunch. When he left, I hugged him and said, "Well, thanks for coming. That was so awkward, I won't invite you again." He just laughed and said, "Thanks for cooking." So, that's just the way it goes.

Good goal, BTW. You do sound so good. How did you sound before I met you?

I hope you have a very Merry Christmas day...can you think of something to do for yourself?

I'll check in on you then!
Amy
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/26/08 01:49 AM
((Amy)),
Well, did something for myself on Christmas - got horribly sick! Woke up around 7:00am vomiting, but only vomited twice. Finally kept some Sprite down around 4:00pm, and a yogurt at 6:30pm. I feel like someone pummelled me with a large rubber hammer!

Shew, I'm feeling better now though, but have to drive 2.5 hours back home.

As far as how I sounded starting out, I probably sounded pretty morose - the last two weeks have been incredible, mostly due to that point where I was lying in bed, and realized that I deserved to be treated better.

I think the detaching also has started kicking in - where I'm not thinking/talking about it all the time.

It still scares me a little bit - I'm the guy that truly believes when you say "til death do us part" and "for better or worse", that you should actually MEAN the words.

But W is either going to wake up and smell the coffee or not - I have beautiful kids, a wonderful family, a great business I own - I'm blessed in so many ways that I'm not going to let her drag down more of my life than the 2.5 years I've already wasted! If I can put that much effort, love, kindness, etc, and she is going to ignore it - I deserve to be treated better!

Merry Christmas
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/26/08 03:40 AM
{{{Jon}}} UGH..I hate that you were sick..that is not fun at all, but glad you are doing better..when do you have to drive home? The "good" Thing about stomach stuff, if there IS such a thing, is that they are usually short lived!

I agree with what you say, I believe in the "married for life" concept too, but we are blessed regardless and can hold our heads up high and know that we are doing what we should be to hold our end of the bargain up \:\)

You DO deserve to be treated better!

Tawnya
Posted By: sandi2 Re: My Story - 12/26/08 04:54 AM
Man oh man!! I love these posts! \:D You two men are going great! Now remember that I was an AWAW, so just wanted you to realize who this is coming from.......you have to be the one that is relaxed. You have to be the one that feels free. You have to be the one that has the peace. If you have none of these.....then you are her prisoner......or let's put it a different way....you are a prisoner to the stitch! As I see it, you are learning fast about that principle. When you get to the place that you are detached enough that you can be almost nonchalant about what she does and at times even be "sweet"....okay, then "nice" to her and it doesn't bother you how she receives your actions.....then you have really reached a new level. Of course, I still maintain that you don't allow her to walk on you, disrespect you, etc. You don't have to show your behind by setting her straight about that, either. Men can talk soft and yet firm/stern to a woman and she knows when he means business. So, don't take any crap off of her. That isn't what I mean by being nonchalant about what she does. I think you understand where I coming from.

When you get where Amy and Tawnya (a couple of my Sweeties, BTW) are in your detaching.....then you will see how much easier everything else will follow. That is not to say that there won't be other problems to arise or difficult days to deal with, but I think from what I have read that the detachment must be the hardest part to master.

So, keep up the good work men. Don't let the WAW's get you down. And, this is JMHO, but SingleDad, I think if she is with OM, I wouldn't be concerned about inviting her to anymore family events or get-togethers. When a woman can't behave herself properly like a lady should....then she doesn't deserve to be invited to anything by the H.

Oh, and about the children. Oh.....they can be real treasures. They can also be "instruments" that can cut like a knife to the guilty party and be ever so innocent in what they say. That is what hurts the guilty person......they know it comes from the mouths of babes and they speak the truth. Of course, the WAS is not going to tell you what the child said b/c it would be telling off on themselves. But, I truly believe that God uses children to speak to adults many times. Now take that in the context in which it was given..... \:D

I'll check on you all tomorrow.

Sandi
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/26/08 05:32 AM
Sandi - thanks so much for the encouragement! I'm very happy to be in control of my life once again. I have spent 2+ years dancing around trying to do everything I can to make W happy. Watching kids for her, bought laptop for her to use at school, and so on - she repays by starting to date OM.

SingleDad - I agree with Sandi - don't invite to any more events. If OM is involved it is the utmost of disrespect and insults. I also am trying to do just what Sandi said: soft yet firm. I'm being very firm with W ,but I go overboard being extremely kind and thoughtful. Like when I told her that she couldn't get kids early, I said, "It'll be my first Christmas without them, and I want to spend every minute with them I can." I could have said, "Biotch, get on your OWN time!" \:\)
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/26/08 06:22 PM
Also, a technical question - I am starting to spread out, catch up on stories. Is there any easy way to track threads or responses? I have to go to my posts, and start reading forward, and it seems really dorky. \:\)
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/26/08 10:31 PM
Sigh, journaling/venting:

What a sick, twisted world we live in.

W just came home from family Christmas - she has an interesting tactic on everything. She broadcasts what she does - then says she has been "completely honest". She told her parents she was dating another man - they of course, disagree vehemently, but she does this so she can somehow come up with a twisted sense of "righteousness" because she is honest.

Also, W chewed me out because I told D8 that OM is "fully married" - W's exact words. OM is married, but has been separated from his wife. W actually talked to OM's W, and said HIS W likes her. Wow, crazy. She was angry at me for saying OM was "fully" married - I'm wondering if there are "partial" marriages? I told her I didn't need to hear her justifications for her actions.

Anyway, D8 came home from W's family Christmas, and D8 told me that the first thing her G'pa said was, "Hi guys, Merry Christmas - how's your boyfriend?" Come to find out this was completely untrue. I'm worried about D8 - she is saying weird things - I think she is under tremendous emotional stress.
D8 also told me that W told all her friends that I told her Dad about OM - this was also untrue.

I also may have just got verification that it is PA - D8 told me that OM came over to spend the night, so I asked W, and W avoided the question, and said it was none of my business, and she didn't have to tell me. I told W she can do what she wants, but DO NOT tell my daughter that she was sleeping with someone.

Finally, best comment of the night, after W told me that she was mad about the "fully married"thing, I responded like this:
"I am showing D8 that marriage is a beautiful life-long commitment that you make to your spouse and to God, and that you make a vow to forsake all others. If you disagree, you can teach her differently." Hah, how do you respond to that!

The only positive note is that if it IS PA, then that just helps me that much more in court!

So, a sucky day, but I guess two weeks ago, I said the hard times were a'comin! I just tell myself - either she'll come around, or she's truly self-centered arrogant person that cares about nothing but herself.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/26/08 10:41 PM
Replying to myself, and asking for advice:

I'm feeling a little better after my vent - W is obviously angry about me standing up to her, so gotta get through that, but hey, I feel good about it! \:\)

I had thought about asking W for my house key (she doesn't use it, but has it) and also asking her to sign a document to get her taken off my checking account (I have all debit cards and checks, but she is still on there). Is that "too much" or a good step on detaching? It's tricky finding what a good balance is...
Posted By: marriedCrazy Re: My Story - 12/26/08 10:47 PM
Jon, I removed my W from all joint accounts long before she dropped the bomb. I knew something was up; so I started protecting myself. So, I think that removing her is warranted. Otherwise, you run the risk of her using family money to underwrite her R with the OM.

The key, I'd check with local laws before preventing her from entering the marital home. I can't do that here in KY.

I also have heard typical spew that we are "technically divorced". W has listed herself as "single" on dating websites and her FB page. Currently, she has a new OM and has listed herself at "in a relationship" on her FB page. It's a long road bro; I've been in this sitch for almost three years.

Good luck and stay strong.
Tom
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/26/08 10:58 PM
Well, my bank said she has to sign a paper.

So my question for you - why aren't you divorced at this point?
Posted By: marriedCrazy Re: My Story - 12/26/08 11:04 PM
It's headed that way..just tidying up some financial accounts so that the settlement is easier on both of us. I've stayed because I've felt in the past I hadn't done all in my ability to try and save this M. Now that the W has moved out; I've detached and my future feels brighter every day since Oct.

I have the kids, the house, and she seems to content to keep it that way. I'm rolling out of the M now. I've prayed and prayed about it; but my W has no interest nor has she exhibited any action toward a reconciliation. I'm tired after keeping it together for nearly 3 yrs since the BS began.

Tom
Posted By: sandi2 Re: My Story - 12/26/08 11:21 PM
Hi Jon, I don't know if I'm posting on your thread or somebody else's I know I wrote to you somewhere else today....I think....I'm soooo confused!

First, let me say that I did not realize that you had already been at this for over 2 years. Here I thought you were taking off like a jet after a short time.....and I don't know where I got that idea, but the point is, you are doing good and you will still have those sucky days and have to get through them the best you can.

It is soooo hard when there is a little child involved. The debate about exposing affairs has been ongoing for some time on the board. My outlook about it has turned quite a bit since I have come through the fog and can see better these days. However, I feel very strong about telling children that are younger than 9 or 10 very much information. I have an 8 year old granddaughter who I think is as sharp as they come (naturally) but I don't know what would happen to her emotionally or mentally if she was told that her mother has a boyfriend or was having an affair b/c I don't think she knows what that is. I think she knows a little about sex, but I don't know how much.

If your D8 is over at your W's while OM is sleeping there......oh man, I don't know how you are dealing with that at all! If he is not sleeping and is visiting while she's there, that is still hard on you, I know. The fact that D8 heard what grandpa said about "how's your boyfriend" concerns me. I think she has probably overheard a lot of adult conversation that she should not have been exposed to. Most of that was out of your control. It still is out of your control to a great degree.
That has to tear you apart as a parent.

I know you told your wife that you would raise your D8 with your idea about M and she could raise her in her ideas. However, I realize that you were angry when you said that. My heart bleeds for this child, as for so many others, b/c she is the one caught in the middle of two parents pulling her in two different directions with different viewpoints and will be telling her opposite morals, norms & standards. Very tough, indeed. My suggestion for you is to get her into therapy as soon as possible. And....listen to me here, okay? I hope you aren't a school counselor or this will make you angry, but in smaller school districts that do not have the money to afford "real" therapists, the word "counselor" is misleading. They are academic counselors......that's all. Do not inturst your D to an acadmeic counselor to talk to her about physiological problems. That is from my personal knowledge about them. In fact, I don't have a lot of confidence in just physiology counselors b/c of my bad experience with them. Most do not have any more hours in physiology than a high school academic counselor and so they can really mess a kid up mentally. I would take her to a very well known and trusted physiatrist/therapist. I am not trying to scare you, but I would not let this go very long with the signs that she is showing. I think she is under a great deal of stress and does not know how to manage her feelings and sees all the distress between her relatives and especially her parents. Maybe I am making too much out of it by suggesting a physiatrist, but if she were mine, I would not take any chances. There are so many messed up kids b/c of what they are exposed to when they are little. You can't help a lot of that and I am not trying to lay a guilt trip on you. I'm just trying to encourage you not to let this ride very long before you make a decision about your D8. Kids are very smart, but their little minds can't handle as much as some adults seem to think that they can.......and I don't care how mature she may seem for her age. Yes, they are resilient to a lot of things in life b/c they have to learn to be, but there are some things that you just think they are dealing with okay, only to discover that it will show up later in their life.

Well, hope I did not completely distroy you with this post. That was not my intentions. I know you are upset and angry and concerned. Our emotions make it hard to think clearly sometimes. I only want to help, and I hope you believe that. And, I am only offering suggestions.....I'm not telling you what you must do.

Oh, about finding other people's posts or threads.......when you see their name out by the side of a post they have sent, you click on their name and scroll down to view posts and it brings up the ones they have posted to. You can usually go all the way back to the beginning (unless they've been here a real long time) to find their first thread. It's not too hard to figure out where their story is posted.

Take care,
Sandi

Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/26/08 11:35 PM
Ok, I'm spewing here, but I need a 2x4 - I have already given myself several, but I should admit this, and be done with it.

As I said, when I asked W about OM coming over and spending the night, she got real weird about it, and wouldn't answer me. Up until now, she has said they were just friends, etc.

FYI - I am a Christian, and believe the only right way for divorce is adultery...

Anyway, I'm thinking now it is PA, and I told her "If you are having a physical relationship, just tell me so I can proceed with divorce, and feel right before God."

Yeah, I know - whiny and wimpy, sigh... She, of course, didn't respond.
Posted By: marriedCrazy Re: My Story - 12/26/08 11:42 PM
Jon, why do you think your statement was whiny and wimpy? In accordance with your beliefs (and mine FTM) you have just informed her, matter-of-factly, what you intend to do.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/27/08 12:34 AM
Thanks for your input - D8 has said stuff that completely isn't true, and I do believe some of it because of the conflicting morals she is getting. W obviously doesn't tell her that divorce is great, and OM is great - but my guess is that she doesn't want to believe that Mommy could do something so bad. Sigh, even when I did have the divorce talk, I told her I loved W very much, and that it didn't make her a bad person...

OM is not sleeping over, at least when kids are there - if I found that out, there would be WAR! Where I live, you can get an injunction to stop spouse from having overnight guests! \:\)

Your suggestions are always very thoughtful and well-received - I believe you have a lot of wisdom to share! Thank you so much for taking the time to share with me!

Like I always say, there are so many here who's situations are a lot worse than mine!
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/27/08 01:19 AM
marriedCrazy,
You are right - but it still is an element where she holds control over me, and I hate it that she can still control my emotions with that. And, that I have to find out an ugly truth to be able to file for divorce, and finally, not 3 months ago she dismissed our divorce and told kids we were going to "see what happens."

I guess I'm a little scared to know for SURE that it is PA - as well, but would rather just get the punch in the gut, and get it over with, you know?
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/27/08 01:21 AM
{{{Jon}}} I guess my question would be why wouldn't wife answer you about that, that would make me suspicious and I would want an answer yes or no..don't tell her you are freaky about it, just maybe don't want kids around it while they are there or something..use it to say you want to talk about some boundaries or something..

Funny you mention that about divorce/adultery/the Bible, because I mentioned that to my husband too the other day, but the Bible ALSO says that, if in your mind you lusted, you in reality have committed adultery..so, with that in mind, my hub, whether it's a EA or a PA (which it is AT LEAST an EA) has already committed adultery in my book. You know, I never really quite understood how that could be so when I'd read it in the Bible, but now, living it, I can see why and I actually said to my hub and to my mom when I was talking about it, whether it's a PA or EA doesn't matter..it's like he's sleeping with her even if he's not :P

Tawnya
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/27/08 01:38 AM
{{{Tawnya}}},
I see your point on the Bible thing - but I guess if you read the "original" text the word adultery doesn't even mean a sexual relationship. I'm too frazzled with it - really, what it comes down for me is this: it would be the ultimate disgrace, and I would mentally completely close the door on her. I don't know if I would ever reconsider her after that point. That's what scares me. As far as EA, I actually told W the EXACT same thing - EA or PA is the same thing!

I felt like I approached it very carefully. She knows how I feel about the EA, so I basically said this: "I'm not mad, and I won't say a word to the kids. I will not be unkind, and I won't bring up again, but are you sleeping with him?"

I mean it too - if she says "Yes", it'll be the end of anything with us, probably forever, and I will not even honor her with my conversation.

If we had just started having problems a few weeks ago, instead of 2+ years ago, and if I hadn't done what I have done, it might be a different story.

Believe it or not, my PMA is still pretty good. I thought this would make me lose my mind. She hasn't responded it yet, but I'm 99% sure it'll be "yes" to the PA. (If it's no, I'm not sure what I'll do - I'm not going to ask every week)

If it is, I'll be OK - I think its this: my "hurt-meter" has pretty well maxed out, so another thing to pile on top doesn't really matter that much.

Again, I'm continuing the detaching - I'm going to stand by my course of action:
1. Told W I loved her more than anything
2. Told W I would do just about anything to save our family
3. I detached

Who knows what happens next? I'm not POed, but am pretty hurt, so I'm going to sleep on it for a couple of days. I will NOT let it ruin my PMA - going to go chill out with my kiddos!
Posted By: marriedCrazy Re: My Story - 12/27/08 01:41 AM
Jon, I can tell you that it took me more than one PA before I finally had all I could take. I stood by longer than most men; if you can muster the courage to pull the trigger after the first one you may save yourself much heartache down the road. But only YOU know when you can do that.

I just know it took me a WHILE to get there.

God Bless!!

Tom
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/27/08 01:57 AM
{{Jon}} Let us know how it goes..tho I wonder, will you believe her if she says no?? That's a toughie isn't it??

{{MC}} It's just because you rock \:\)

Tawnya
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/27/08 02:04 AM
Yeah, MC makes me feel sort of bad - do you really love your W if you can drop her? He really does rock!

I think that it's probably just my emotions speaking - it's not so much the PA that bothers me, it's the PA coming after such a long hard fought battle where I set aside my personal life for 2+ years for NOTHING. My attorney from the dismissed divorce said she had never seen another man like me - not sure if she was complimenting or not! \:\)

Tawnya - I will believe her, the one thing about her is she is exceptionally honest - how funny is it that her one good trait at this time is pretty much making my divorce case?

I guess I will look at the good things in life! She is bringing our dog over in 2 hours, so we'll see what happens.

It just so happens that I have on new jeans, a really cool red shirt (her favorite color), and her favorite cologne on! I may go down, but I'm going down fighting and looking good!
Posted By: marriedCrazy Re: My Story - 12/27/08 02:30 AM
Jon..you certainly have the "right" attitude brother!!
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/27/08 03:00 AM
LOL Work it out {{{Jon}}}

Tawnya
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/27/08 04:29 AM
HAHAHAHA!

Maniacal laughter. W just dropped off dog - she just opened front door to let him in, and hollered, "Thank you."

I was in the other room, so I walked out, and she saw me and said thanks, and started to shut the door, then pushed the door back open and did a quick up-down look, then said, "Bye" and left.

Hee hee, I made her double-take! What a glorious 10 seconds that was!
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/27/08 05:30 AM
Woohoo..go you \:\) Told you that you would "work it"!

Tawnya
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/27/08 04:27 PM
Journaling:

Thanks {{Tawnya}}!

Is it a sign of successful detaching when you aren't so much interested in making them change their mind, but are instead wanting to make them as sorry as possible about NOT changing their mind?

I have lost 19 pounds! I think having stomach flu probably accelerated that a couple of pounds. \:\) I hate not being able to work out, but I don't want to push it. I'm really glad that I'm not even hungry for cookies/candy/cake anymore. I almost never eat outside of meals.

My long-term goal is sort of out there, but I'm so pumped about it. W and I have taken kids to community pool last two summers, and I can't wait to walk up there in about 5 months with my shirt off, and watch W's eyes pop out at my chiseled and buff body - assuming everything remains the same. I've never gotten horribly fat, but have been lax last few years.

W didn't confirm/deny PA - I can't tell if she's not, and trying to hold it over me, or is, and just doesn't have the guts to tell me. The oddness of the situation seems to indicate she IS, but she has always been brutally honest, so her not saying seems to indicate she ISN'T? She said, "You're not part of my life, so I don't have to tell you." All signs point to it being true, but then she would just SAY so - she has always justified what she does by saying she has been honest about it.

Hah, anyway, I'm still loving that double-take!

Well, I'm moving on - I've expressed thoughts, and I'm not going to hang over it. I asked her to have the guts to be honest with me, and she did not respond, so fine.

As I will continue to say, "I deserve to be treated better."

PMA and hot bod, here I come!
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/27/08 04:41 PM
Go you!!

I hate she didn't tell you one way or another..as long as you are at peace with it either way, I guess I wouldn't push it \:\)

Tawnya
Posted By: marriedCrazy Re: My Story - 12/27/08 05:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Jon
Is it a sign of successful detaching when you aren't so much interested in making them change their mind, but are instead wanting to make them as sorry as possible about NOT changing their mind?


It is successful detaching when you are not wanting to make them do ANYTHING. Your just letting them live their life without worrying about it; you're only concerned with your own and your kids.

That's my opinion!!
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/27/08 05:53 PM
Yep, I agree.

I guess the cool thing is that although stuff still bothers me - I don't think I would be human if it didn't - but it's for a couple of hours instead of a couple of weeks.

Also, the fact that I can have a goal that is 5 months out, and I'm not really concerned about what happens in the meantime, is pretty cool to me, so I'm pretty much following what you say.

Also, I know EA and probably PA is not going to go well - when the single positive thing OM has is "a good listener", then things aren't destined to go well, especially because OM is just extremely introverted. \:\)

Best part is that I'm just laughing about OM - honestly, from my core, I don't care, I'm just patiently waiting on W to fall flat.

I'm very happy where I am, love my kids - we are growing closer every single day!

I had this thought yesterday - I think AmyM asked me why I was so positive, and how I was when I first got on here. I was pretty down, but something happened, and I'm not sure what triggered it, but I "found myself". When I did, I realized I deserved a lot better!
Posted By: marriedCrazy Re: My Story - 12/27/08 06:02 PM
Quote:
but I "found myself". When I did, I realized I deserved a lot better!


And that is the key to the whole process of DB'ing. Now what happens is under your control; not hers.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: My Story - 12/27/08 06:56 PM
Quote:
D8 has said stuff that completely isn't true, and I do believe some of it because of the conflicting morals she is getting


Jon, it is too long of a story to get into, but I use to have a step-granddaughter that there was the same situation and it was awful what it did to her. Her mother left her when she was a baby and the dad raised her and had full custody of her, but she went to her biological mother's every other weekend. Her mother had no morals at all. My daughter M the little girl's daddy and we took her and loved her as our own. They tried very hard to raise her right. Ten years later my D and SIL divorced. I saw the girl one time after that. The last I heard it was not good what had happen to her b/c of the influence her mother had on her. But during those ten years, every time she would come back home from being with her mother, it was as if my D and SIL would have to start all over and try to get all that garbage out of her mind and instill the right morals. So, I guess that is one reason I was so emotional about your stitch and I hope I wasn't sounding too over-bearing. I shared this personal experience to just let you know that I realize some of the hell on earth that it can put a parent through, plus the grandparent that love her and want to see her grow up to be a good person.

You have my prayers. I hope you can find out the truth and if your W is having a PA, you can move on and get a life. There will always be that connection b/c of the kids and that is so difficult even under the best of circumstances. But, I pray you will find peace and that God will give you guidance as to what to do.

Take care,
Sandi
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/27/08 07:13 PM
Thank you so much Sandi - I hate this with all my heart. I know W will look back some day with deep regret. I make it a point to speak positively and complimentary of W in front of D8 - the only negative thing I have said was when I explained to her why divorce and "boyfriends" are wrong.

D8 is just having trouble - W had been very devoted mother and wife, very firm about commitment/marriage, very much against people that don't stand by spouses - W has done a complete 180. This has to be confusing to D8 - also D8 in the past has sobbed those deep heaving sobs, and begged W, "Please don't break up with Daddy!" W didn't shed a tear, and looked at D8, and said, "I've made up my mind, and won't change it." Imagine what that does to a little girl when you pour out your heart in anguish to your mommy, and she ignores you?

I'm having D8 meet with a family counselor in a couple of weeks - I want to start the healing process now, and do everything I can. I want to make sure that I'm not adding ANYTHING to her pain.

Even now, with W, she knows that I suspect, and she knows D8 suspects, so she's getting weirder about it, but I'm still being as nice as possible while staying detached. She was sick again with stomach flu today, and I asked if she was OK, and needed anything. I will now not contact her again until Monday afternoon when she drops off kids - she may not even come in, her choice... Best thing is that I'm doing it for my kids - I would love to be able to say to them, "When Mommy was with another man, I stayed by her side, and helped her." I'm not going to SAY that to them, but they will figure it out.
I am getting a life, moving on, regardless of W's PA or not. I deserve better! \:\)
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/27/08 10:18 PM
Ok, I feel like I know have my thoughts together. Attorney said we have a very good case on marriage ending 2.5 years ago because ML ended then, and W moved into a separate room, opened a separate checking account, etc. This will protect my business, reduce alimony and child support, etc. Also, W's A helps me a lot too - adultery is still considered bad here!

Anyway, I'm into new territory now. I have completely detached - doing very well, only occasional comments for past 2-3 weeks have been about kids or illness. D8 brought up staying all night situation with OM, and I asked W to confirm, and she would neither confirm nor deny.

::side note::
P.S. I love this - W started to tell me that OM's W "liked her" and I cut her off, and said, "I really don't want to hear your attempts to justify this situation - just do what you're gonna do." Hee hee, she immediately shut up.
::end side note::

Anyway, what matters to me is balance. I went over to the affairs board for awhile, and I've read some different things.

1. You cannot work on R while OM is involved
2. You should still be a friend
3. GAL like crazy - done!

The one I'm struggling with is #2 - how do you balance between being a friend and appeasement? W is being very friendly but in a sort of distant way - even after the PA question yesterday.

I understand A's usually die on their own, and the fact that OM is married, has 3 kids that W would have to start taking care of (5 total), lives hour away, and is TOTALLY not W's type - but still, I have to wait until it blows over. (I am of course prepared for finality)

Is it enough that I have told W that A is wrong, and I have explained to D8? How do I show her that I'm "there", but I don't approve of relationship? Maybe I need to jump over to that forum for a bit, but I hate to do it! \:\)
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/27/08 11:17 PM
Jon..you sound like me in that "how to be a friend but not a pushover or seem like I'm cool with the cake eating"..I guess just be who WE are, be nice, but not overly nice and certainly not be nice about anything pertaining to the A..like you cut off the convo about the OM's wife..like you care or WANT to hear that!

Just my thoughts..I'm right there with you \:\)

Tawnya
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/27/08 11:33 PM
Jon - It may be that she has to come to you. You've made your boundery w/ OM.

Your W seems to have taken the low hanging fruit w/ what described. Just keep working on you and be ready. Pay attention, listen and focus.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/28/08 12:16 AM
{{{Tawnya}}},
Glad to not I'm not alone!

I guess here's my real nitty-gritty question:

W wants us to be "friends" - I guess a way of getting her off the hook for what she's doing, but not having to have any consequences. I have told her that "friends" don't do to each other what she's doing, and it's what selfish people say to make themselves feel better about breaking up a family (not her favorite thing to hear).

Where is the line between letting her feel like she's got the best of both worlds? Cake-eating? Is it OK to let her feel like that in order to allow a friendship flourish, and wait out the A? Most WAS I have seen on this board suggest growing a pair, and standing up, and being hard-core. Which actually, in review, I have been! So maybe that's it - be abundantly clear that any sort of A is wrong, even EA, and then be nice? My only breakdown occurs when it impacts kids - I just lose it there.

Sheesh, this isn't as hard as it is confusing.
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/28/08 12:34 AM
Jon- Interestng point about wanting to be friends. The way I look at it, you get to pick your friends. Does your W have the qualities you look for in a fried? If not, I would treat her like a business associate.
Posted By: marriedCrazy Re: My Story - 12/28/08 12:43 AM
Jon, I have to agree with A on this one; only I will add that you can always be "friendly" without being a friend.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/28/08 12:46 AM
Well, thus is the question. What happened in our M is that we let the friendship lapse - got busy starting a business, etc you know the drill.

I want more than ANYTHING that if R comes back that it starts with core friendship - I would refuse anything physical, etc without it.

I guess it's this, and I could be way off base - I honestly don't think the A is serious. I think it is someone to talk to, essentially. Once it sinks in that W is going to go from a part-time mom of 2 to a mom of 5, things will go down hill from there, and fast, and I'm only picking the easy stuff!

She is also about to start working 40 hours a week, and also going to RN school full-time - with OM an hour away, good luck!

I'm staying completely out at this point - she is on break so has plenty of time to chat and do fun stuff with OM, especially since I have kids 50% of the time.

As for your question - she has many qualities that I would look for in a friend - wouldn't have married her if not. Don't worry, I will not be a "friend" while she has anything to do with OM, however, I can be "nice".

I know I'm sort of babbling and rambling, but I guess I don't know what to do with myself. I thought I would lose my mind with anger and disgust knowing about OM - even considering that it could very well be PA instead of just 'friends'. I thought this would end it all, emotionally I would have closure, I would cease to love W, and so on.

I know I probably need a punch in the eye, but man...


Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/28/08 02:15 AM
Originally Posted By: JonF

I guess it's this, and I could be way off base - I honestly don't think the A is serious. I think it is someone to talk to, essentially. Once it sinks in that W is going to go from a part-time mom of 2 to a mom of 5, things will go down hill from there, and fast, and I'm only picking the easy stuff!


Well, here is your punch in the face ...

Stop guessing at your W's R with OM. How do u know it will end badly? Maybe she thinks you were that big of a jerk where D kids is a better option? It is a WAS. Logical isn't exaclty the foundation of her thinking.

Your W is/had an A because of what she was missing from you. This goes back to working on you. It will be this way until your a better option.

Of course you married her because of many friend qualities. What about W now? That was my question.

Quit guessing and get back to work. If R fails w/ OM, are you ready?
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/28/08 04:43 AM
The weird thing that makes this a bit convoluted is that W and I have been separated for 6 months, "separated" for 2+ years.

I know exactly how to handle her, what to do, and so on. She hates the dating scene, etc, has never had any interest in anyone, and so on. If that was the current state, I would know what to do, and feel very confident!

A month or so ago, she out of the blue said she wanted to "date" - and told D8 and S6. She is very honest - she told me before she started dating, and I told her it was wrong, that we should get divorced/dissolution first, etc. She of course, continued. In my mind, it is still an affair, even though it's allegedly not PA - foolish to fret over it at this point, anyway.

Regardless, this has thrown me a bit off track - my standard approach is that marriage is a life-long commitment - I tell her that we can't be friends if she breaks up our family.

So, in my position, doing a 180 WOULD be being friendly. I hope this helps explain why I'm a little confused right now.

I'm absolutely going to continue with detachment - but do you just go into freeze mode until OM falls out of picture?

I did do one very small 180. I have like 4 total spoons, so I emailed W asking if maybe kids had brought some of "my" spoons over there on accident, or bringing home from lunches. Key here is I called them MY spoons - we have had a little argument sometimes about me calling it "our" bathroom, and she would get weird about that.

Here is what my short-term goal is
- take small but clear steps about ending, like saying "my" and getting her to sign her name off our joint checking account, and stand up to her on the A, and not take any explanation or crap about it.

Here is the question: do I take these steps, and be "nice" with it? Does that show "approval" of what she's doing? Or will it make her re-think? Should it matter, should I just do it anyway?

Maybe I just need a few days to sort this out - I'm the type of person that needs a plan, and I feel all loosey-goosey.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: My Story - 12/28/08 07:11 AM
Hi all, it is very late (again) and I shouldn't even start this and probably won't make a bit of sense, but you know me.....

"Being a friend" is the hard part for people in DB to understand. It really is determined (I think) by which way you have approached the stitch. If you are trying to draw the spouse back home to your loving arms, then being a friend and outshining the OP often works, but it does usually take a long time so that requires a lot of patient. Also, if there is a PA going on.....that is something a lot of people cannot tollerate and won't show any signs of condoning that type of R while M. That is why the "friendship" thing gets confusing.

In some cases, spouses must use the "tough love" route, such as Puppy did in his stitch. Hope he doesn't mind me using him for an example.

There are many ways, I believe, that you can DB, but you have to figure out what is best in your stitch. Some women say they cannot ML to their H's who they know are having sex with OW. Other W's say they can do it if it will help them draw their H's back home after the excitment of the A wears off. Everyone is different in what they can or cannot do.

In Jon's stitch......and if I were Jon and was about to D my W on grounds of A, I think being "best friends" at this particular time would not seem appropriate somehow. That is just my way of thinking. If a couple can go through a D and be civil to each other and try to put their best foot forward for the sake of the children.....that is about the most a lot can accomplish. By being a "friend" in his stitch, I see it as treating someone you met in an impersonal way and was "decent" or "nice" to them. When you are getting a D on grounds of A, being best friends?.....I don't see it. But, if there is a way a couple can have what I would call an "impersonal friendship", (you know, kind of like some people we have to work with?) then I think for the time being.....that is doing good. Later, after things settle down and emotions are not as raw, maybe that impersonal friendship might get better, but I don't think I have ever seen a D couple in real life become best friends. That is just my take on it. It only happens on TV sitcoms.

Now....if you are fighting to draw her back to you and not D her.....then, yes, you can play the "best friend" card if you can tollerate it. It is just that not every man or woman is able to put up with the crap that they have to see and hear....especially where their kids are concerned.

Jon, my heart goes out to you over your little girl. I only have to think of my GD in that picture and I can't stand it. I can see her doing the same thing. It is hard to imagine a mother's heart being so hard toward her child's brokeness. All of this mess.....MLC, WAS, D .....the whole stuff is horrible.

My prayers go up for all of you.

Sandi
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/28/08 06:46 PM
Sandi,
Very insightful words - I appreciate them, but you named my predicament right on.

Let me prepare in advance this is going to be a long post! I'm sure I broke several DBing rules in here, but I hope I made up for it with good things! \:\)

The whole thing sort of started when D8 told me that OM sleeps over with W. I thought D8 was making it up, as she has been saying weird stuff like that lately, and it has been completely untrue! I wanted to bring it up in front of W, and with D8, so we could talk about truthfulness.

Imagine my surprise, when W didn't deny it outright, and told D8 they would talk about it when she got her back. I then took the phone, and asked her if it was true. She started saying it was none of my business, that OM's W liked her, etc - lots of justification. In my eyes, VERY guilty.

So I asked her just to tell me - I told her I believe that divorce was only right in God's eyes based on adultery, and if I was going to file divorce, I wanted to do it right.

W said that I was being creepy trying to find out about her personal life - right here, I did a 180. ME, "(W), I don't care how you insult me - I don't need details, who when where - THAT would be creepy maybe. I just want to know, yes or no."

W: "You are being weird, listen to yourself."

ME: "I have a belief, and I will stand up for my beliefs. You don't have to agree, that's fine, we'll soon be divorced. Do not insult me anymore - I will not take any demeaning from you. We have disagreed, but I have never insulted YOU."

She asked, why I couldn't just listen to HER, why bring God/Bible into it, and I said I made a vow to her AND God, and while I would abide by divorce, God took a bit more precedence.

W: "You are creeping me out because you keep hanging on."
(This is stupid considering I haven't even contacted her in 2 weeks)

ME: "I'm absolutely not hanging on. Let me try this: I have poured out my heart, life, and soul for you for 2.5 years. I am exhausted and numb. I ache every day for you, for kids, and for ME. I am completely ready to "let go" and file divorce, but I need to be clear before God. If you think I'm creepy, and weird, fine, all the more reason to get the show on the road."

W (off-topic): "It's been 2.5 years, and we haven't been friends."

ME: "YOU said you wanted to try again three times in that period, and less than three months ago, YOU dismissed divorce, and told kids we would see what happened."

W: "Why is it about God, what can't it be my choice?"

ME: "It is about your choice - you are with another man, and I just said that I hoped you find happiness."

W: "Our marriage was crap for 8 years, and ME I was standing up for myself."

(Note: I've heard this alot)

ME: "Sorry, I'm calling bullshit. There were bad times, yes, but there were awesome times. Maybe I'm a Pollyanna, but you're the Grinch."

ME: "And don't you know that I realized that there were problems? When you asked me to try again, I just said, "Let's get counseling." You refused."

W (off-topic): "I know you saw OM at Walgreens, he saw you when he came to check up on me" (First, of all, puh-lease! She acted like this was so sweet, but I have ALWAYS babied her when she was sick. It was interesting because I had my kids, so he must've known it was me by my kids, but I didn't even notice, have tried to remember)

ME: "I didn't see him, or if I did, I didn't know. I don't even know what he looks like, and don't care."

I did another 180 - I have always been really hard-core about marriage, blah blah blah...
ME: "If he is your choice, I hope you find the happiness you're looking for, and will wish you the best."

W: "He is funny and shy and sweet and nice"

ME: "Whoopee, so am I, except shy - again, don't care"

W: "You would never be friends/family without strings attached."

ME: "Poop, there were never strings attached, YOU are the one who limited everything. I only asked that we just see what happened."

ME: "If he is the perfect man, what is the holdup? You can be honest about PA, and this'll be done. Like ME, I deserve to be treated better anyway."

She went off-topic: "We are where we are because of things you did, etc"

ME: "We are where we are because we were selfish and hurtful. We can choose to end that and do right, or continue, give up, and move on"

W: "We tried, and friendship never happened."

ME: "FRIENDSHIP NEVER HAPPENED BECAUSE YOU WOULDN'T LET IT"

W: "Fine I will file divorce" (She can't file now because she doesn't have money)

ME: "I'm not waiting 2 years for a divorce with you being with another man"

W (off-topic): "I'm not responsible for problems because I was just reacting to you."

ME: "BULLSHIT! You were as much a part as me, and you won't admit it. I reacted to YOU too, but I pointed the finger at myself and took responsibility."

ME: "I'm not rehashing the blame game - if you want to resolve past hurts, fine, but I'm not doing the back-and-forth"

W: "You mistreated me blah blah blah"

I pointed out the many unreturned back rubs, $6000 in plastic surgery, bringing home Starbucks, doing laundry, cleaning house, buying chocolates, taking to Florida every year for a week - just her and I, dating, etc."

(She was at work, and quit responding - she has to stop abruptly if her client comes out)

I ended with this: "Look, we're going in circles. If you are interested in our family, I'm ok with staying separated and starting as friends, but not with another man involved. If you are interested, we'll discuss. Otherwise, be honest about sleeping with OM, I'll file divorce and we'll end this. I just want to be happy again, with or without you."

PHEW - that was long, and my arms are tired! The last part was a great 180 for me, and let me tell you how good I feel.

1. W some pretty mean things, and I DIDN'T care!
2. I was kind, but firm, never took her bait, but didn't let her bash me!
3. I told her all she had to do was be honest, and our relationship was over with, done, forever.
4. The 180 at the end: I always tend to give severe ultimatums, and not stick with them. This time, I just said, "I want to be happy again, with or without you". The best thing is, I completely mean that.

I guess I was hoping I would be so mad about A, I'd be done, but I don't WANT a divorce. I love her dearly. I'm not going to let her walk on me, and I will file divorce, but how do you DB at this point?

So, maybe I get a couple of 2x4s, but please hit gently as I have reached a major point in my life of true detachment.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/28/08 07:02 PM
This is what I'm talking about - confusion abounds!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/a_while_spouse_decides.htm
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/28/08 08:56 PM
OK, had a couple hours to digest, and I see some things I should have done differently.

1. Didn't validate her feelings, but turned them back in her face. I think I could've done better while still standing firm.
2. I brought up the past - instead of redirecting to the future
3. Cursed, and showed anger
4. Kind of whined about being exhausted and wanting to be happy - instead of just saying I AM going to be happy.

I also did glean some positive things:
1. She showed emotion about us, instead of indifference
2. She pointed out positives about OM - this gives me something to go on now. I had no idea what she saw in him - I don't think there are many positives, but it looks like it boils down to him being a good listener. Now I can be better!
3. I didn't respond to unkind words except to stand up for myself
4. She would never say that he was her choice, she wanted to be with him, he was better than me - the only positive thing she said was he was sweet/shy/nice.

Sigh, this is gonna take me a month to figure out! \:\)
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/28/08 11:18 PM
{{Jon}} What a good DB'er you are to reflect and digest on what you did/didn't do..it really makes me irritated that your wife still didn't confirm or deny..it's like she's toying with you OR not wanting you to know..I don't get that..and I applaud you for standing your ground on the spots you did!

By the way, you DO remember the "don't believe anything they say and less than 50% of what they do" motto about that he was better than you eh?

Tawnya
Posted By: JWM Re: My Story - 12/28/08 11:32 PM
Jon, you did fine. She needs to make a choice about OM or you. It is hard but you cannot be friends with someone you cannot trust.
Posted By: whateverittakes Re: My Story - 12/29/08 01:23 AM
Hi Jon,

I'm amazed at your PMA - let us in on some of your secrets!! I'm serious about that. I cycle back and forth - not good!

I'm dealing with an affair situation as well. You might want to read Huizenga's e-book on the different types of affairs, and what works and doesn't when talking to your spouse. Talking about God, etc., respects your beliefs but may or may not be in line with what you want to do right now or not to try to restore your marriage.

I'm struggling with the friends-issues. It's been continuously recommended by the DB coach. The other day my husband said 'we've always been friends'. That got me thinking that not acting as his friend would be a 180 for me and probably take a huge pressure off me. It would allow me to go dark to the extent that I can given some overlap in our lives. And that would help me get back my life.

I also seriously doubt whether the friends-thing works while there is an active affair going on. They are so blinded by hormones, etc., they can't see anything else; everything else is just taken for granted as part of the backdrop.

While there's an affair going on, I believe there is NOTHING that can be done to work on the marriage. They have to get it out of their system. If being a friend is something you haven't done before (or she thinks you haven't), then it might be a good thing for your wife to see. But at this stage, I don't think it is what will restore the marriage. But it could help pave the way much later on down the road (after the affair).
Posted By: Luci Re: My Story - 12/29/08 01:29 AM
Hey, Jon! I'm popping into your thread belatedly, I hope you don't mind my intrusion, so to speak. I appreciated the words of wisdom you gave to me and thought I might pass some on.

I read that dialog between you and W, and I wanted to remind you something you've already sort of realized: you need to validate your W.

For instance:

Quote:

W: "Our marriage was crap for 8 years, and ME I was standing up for myself."

(Note: I've heard this alot)

ME: "Sorry, I'm calling bullshit. There were bad times, yes, but there were awesome times. Maybe I'm a Pollyanna, but you're the Grinch."



Seems to me a better approach might have been something along the lines of "I'm sorry you felt that way. I can't change what's happened in the past, but now that I know how you felt, it's possible for us to shape a future that's brighter together".

Or something similar.

Validate, validate, validate. I think you already said you saw the responses you weren't happy with, anyway, but I figured an outsider's example might be helpful.

Keep the faith, my friend! \:\)
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/29/08 02:00 AM
{{{Tawnya}}},
I do remember that, and like I said - she has never said anything comparing us or saying she wanted to be with him. I think one time she said, "I like him." Otherwise, it sounds like she's describing her neighbor's sister's daughter's friend. \:\)

The plot thickens, and REALLY is starting to make me mad. D8 and S6 wanted us to be together as a family to watch ball drop.

I asked W, she said no, I told kids, they asked why. I asked W, she said, "Just tell them I'll have them next year." I told her that I was going to have them just start asking her, and that I would not deal with the fallout and consequences for her actions, and have to look at disappointed face.

She got all mad, started telling me to leave her alone, and that I don't listen. Then, oh my goodness, I was SO POed, she forwarded me a text from the OM! Let me give some background - apparently she has been telling him I demeaned her, belittled her, and caused her "anguish" (not true, and the things she IS talking about happened at least 5-6 years ago).

I'm going to put it here in total, the text from OM she forwarded:
"Forward this,please: a man who belittles, demeans, and causes anguish for a woman. Is no man.he is a coward.worthless. You do not listen. If you didyou would be leaving her alone.she wants nothing to do with you. You've had your chance. Nine years worth, right?Instead of continuing to waste everyone's time,you should be praying for common sense."

P.S. The poor punctuation is OM's, not mine!

Anyway, OM is married and apparently separating from W, so I sent back this, laughing wildly:

"Please Forward: a man who can't keep his own marriage together has no business getting into others. A man who doesn't respect marriage is no man. He is a coward, worthless. And needs help with his punctuation."

Ok it was silly and childish, but oh that felt good. Interestingly enough, here was his zinging response. "Stop, man, you are making me cry." I was like, Good Lord, is this man in 3rd grade? But, I didn't expect much anyway.

Then, I texted W, "Anywaaaaay, back to YOU and ME - I asked for the truth on the affair, and it's up to you to be honest. If you won't say, I will leave you alone and do my best to be a friend to my wife."

I said "Don't forward me anything else from him. He doesn't know you or me or our kids or our lives. I will respect YOU and what YOU say only."

She said, "You don't respect me."

I said, "I sure do - do you think this is fun and giggles for me? If I didn't respect you, I wouldn't want to be with you."

LESSONS:
1. What I gleaned from this is that OM is just a shoulder to cry on, and not much to write home about overall. Can't even do punctuation right \:\) Hah, sheesh the crap that OM/OW are is unbelievable - Tawnya, you understand how stupidly low they dip.
2. W is STILL hung on stuff that is six and seven years in the past, and still has alot of bitterness that she refuses to let go of or get counseling for. Not sure what to do with that.
3. W still refuses to come clean on whether A is PA or not - either has received legal advice not to admit, or it isn't PA, and thinks that I will bug her because she hasn't met divorce "requirements".
4. I have a LOOOOONG road to haul.

So at this point, I have no idea what to do. I guess I'm going to do what I last said to W - be a "friend" to my wife. When I see her I am going to smile, be chipper, and cheery, and DEAD silence on the phone/or texts. I'm going to completely ignore the existence of OM, period, and if brought up, politely decline to discuss.

Now she is texting me and kids funny things about Sound of Music that we are watching (she is at work)
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/29/08 02:15 AM
whateverittakes,
My PMA is a result of just realizing that I'm worth more! Problem I have is being desperately in love with my W.

I think that I may be a little lucky in this case. A is not a big passionate deal. It appears to be mostly a shoulder to cry on. OM is not good looking, not smart, etc - sort of insulting. \:\) Not a hormonal, crazed sex thing. Again, W has never really said anything great about him, except he's nice and shy.

Anyway, W's biggest complaint is that we have never been friends (obviously untrue, but gotta respect her feelings). It would be huge for me, but I'm not sure how to wing it - but I think the key is patience, patience, patience.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/29/08 02:17 AM
Luci,
You are dead on.

The only thing that is different for me is that IS how I usually answer. I say, "I'm sorry for the past, and I have asked forgiveness, and I'm sorry you're angry, and I can't change the past, but would like to do right by the future."

So, it was a 180 for me to stand up for the good things that we had. I have cards, paintings, poems, emails, collages, etc from her over the years.

However, you're right, and I did say to W, "I know you're angry, and I can see why you have those feelings, but what can we do about them if we can't talk about them, or receive counseling, or try to resolve in some way?"
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/29/08 03:01 AM
Ok, my couple hours later review of my SECOND conversation, my own personal pep talk to myself.

1. I was calm and reasonable. I HAVE offered W dissolution and divorce, and she is the one being very weird about it, brings in OM to "defend" her. What the heck? I'm not pursuing, I'm asking for closure, and she gets mad about pursuing?
2. I made OM look really stupid, and although that will get her hackles up, I like it. Then, he made it worse, and came back with a REALLY lame and dorky response. One thing W likes about me is that I'm really funny, and this guy just shouldn't even try.
3. I stood up to her/him, and said I didn't want to hear him because he didn't know anything. Just like that I diminished his role, and I won't respond to anything she says about him again.
4. Discovered something very key: W said "You don't respect me". I don't know for sure why she thinks this, but it's good to her clearly and honestly state how she feels - she usually just clams up, and I need to find out why this is, and really show her its not true.

I read something in a post that I liked - it said most As aren't about looks or body - but about how OM/OW makes you FEEL. I need to find out what this A is about - it's definitely not looks, body, or personality.

Anyway, appreciate feedback, I'm mostly just journaling to myself - I don't expect anyone to make much sense of this!
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/29/08 03:53 AM
Remember Jon, this tool knows every negative thing about you and everything your W looks for in a man. He's playing the role. Now they are BOTH baiting you. Would a real man ask his girlfriend to forward a text, or, ask for the guys # to have a man to man conversation?

This dude is playing the game.. and doing it quite well. You need to step it up yourself.

PS - Work on your word usage while communication with your W.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/29/08 04:28 AM
A in Ohio,
You are right about OM.

What is funny is he told her to send me HIS # to call him. I was like, "What? What would I call him about." You're a moron, and you suck at being macho!

Anyway, I really nailed him tonight, and I'm loving it. W will never let on, but she noticed it. He doesn't seem to be the sharpest tool in the shed.

He said basically two things:
1. I demeaned W and was a coward (not true, ridiculous story from W - but I've heard this)
2. I had my chance, stop wasting her time.

He is married, separated/getting divorce, and has three kids 5,3, and 2.
What is great is that based on HIS situation, I replied,
"A man that can't handle his own marriage shouldn't be criticizing others. Also, a man that doesn't respect marriage (cheating with MY wife) is a coward."

The best thing is that I then zinged him on his lousy grasp of the English language.

And then the very best thing was his attempt at a response: "Oh, man, I'm getting misty." I had to ask W what that meant.
And she said, "Crying".
I was like "Why is he crying?"
She said, "Being sarcastic".
I said, "What? Wow. Well, he doesn't matter."

And then she never brought him up again. Bam, sometimes, you know you think of witty things like at 3 am, 6 hours too late? This was one time where I nailed one!

Also, she texted me and kids funny stuff later about Sound of Music.

Sometimes just when you're feeling really crappy, you actually get a little window. What is sad is that I offered to do NY Eve together to W, still trying to be nice, and she said no, but I'm fairly certain she will be with OM.

I'm not obsessing, but it is so sad. W used to be the most family-oriented, loving, kid-wrapped-up, best-mom-in-the-world person EVER!
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/29/08 05:38 AM
Sorry Jon but I'm going to kick ya around for a little while. I used to be in the exact same place. Read my saga of drama.

Originally Posted By: JonF
What is funny is he told her to send me HIS # to call him. I was like, "What? What would I call him about." You're a moron, and you suck at being macho!


Jon - Maybe the ladies on the board can comment on this quote a little better about what a 'man' should be. To me, he sounds like a high school hard a$$. To ask that you call him is a high school move. Acting 'as if' he has control, when in fact, it's a cowardice (sp) move. I would stop the pi$$ing match with OM. Not sexy or manly. At the end of the day, it's a waste of time as he's playing the game. It's not helping your M either.

Your W forwarding that message is a sign of disrespect. Don't encourage bad behavior. Remember, you getting mad is a sign you're not in control of yourself. Indifference, on the other had, is a sign that your in control and it's attractive. A response of "OM is entitled to his opinion" is plenty. Then follow that up with "I expect no further communication from him, especially thru you". Strong, confident, honorable.

Originally Posted By: JonF
Anyway, I really nailed him tonight, and I'm loving it. W will never let on, but she noticed it. He doesn't seem to be the sharpest tool in the shed.


Jon, I'm not sure what your trying to accomplish here. Again, this is wasted energy. Remember, she sought out A because there was something you weren't providing her. Not saying it's right but this is FACT. Man up and work on you. As Gucci would say, "ducks back".

Your W is lost. Busting on OM will make you feel good but it won't help your W. Ego is a bad thing!!! Secure and strong my man. I know you're hurt and it's a huge blow to your ego and self esteem. That will fade. Get rid of the ego and work toward being secure and strong.

Originally Posted By: JonF

He said basically two things:
1. I demeaned W and was a coward (not true, ridiculous story from W - but I've heard this)
2. I had my chance, stop wasting her time.


Uh, need I remind you he's a married man who's banging your W. What does his opinion matter to you? I know how your feeling and STOP IT!!!! I know EXACTLY how you feel. Remember, he's just f*cking w/ your emotions now. Even worse, your ALLOWING him to do that. Is that attractive to a woman?

Originally Posted By: JonF
He is married, separated/getting divorce, and has three kids 5,3, and 2.
What is great is that based on HIS situation, I replied,
"A man that can't handle his own marriage shouldn't be criticizing others. Also, a man that doesn't respect marriage (cheating with MY wife) is a coward."


Jon, Focus. You know OM's sitch and that is a GOOD thing. Treat it as information, not some sort of "I'm better than him" validation. Again, your W left you for HIM because SHE thought HE was better than YOU. Reality, stats, tangible assets DO NOT MATTER ONE BIT to a WAS. This isn't your reality, it's your Ws. She is scared of the storm (you) and taking refuge in a poorly built shack (OM). You have to learn to not be a storm, then she won't need to find a crap shack. \:\)

Originally Posted By: JonF
The best thing is that I then zinged him on his lousy grasp of the English language.


Was that really the best? Maybe it was immature or demeaning? You know, the things that your W is afraid of. So a married man with two kids and poor grammar is still a better choice in your Ws eyes. Look at you bro. You have it in you. DBing isn't about "winning", it's about looking at you and correcting those things.

Originally Posted By: JonF
And then the very best thing was his attempt at a response: "Oh, man, I'm getting misty." I had to ask W what that meant.
And she said, "Crying".
I was like "Why is he crying?"
She said, "Being sarcastic".
I said, "What? Wow. Well, he doesn't matter."


I think you know how I'm going to respond to this. Look at some of Gucci's responses on my threads. Ducks back. EVERY interaction with your W is an opportunity to SHOW HER that you've made changes.

Originally Posted By: JonF
And then she never brought him up again. Bam, sometimes, you know you think of witty things like at 3 am, 6 hours too late? This was one time where I nailed one!


Did she drop it because you were strong and acted with honor, or, that she realized it was hopeless?


Originally Posted By: JonF
Sometimes just when you're feeling really crappy, you actually get a little window. What is sad is that I offered to do NY Eve together to W, still trying to be nice, and she said no, but I'm fairly certain she will be with OM.


Were you trying to be nice or pursuing? I would choose pursuing. Who cares what she's doing NY Eve? What's important is what you're doing. If you have the kids, toss a rockin kids NYE party.


Quote:
I'm not obsessing, but it is so sad. W used to be the most family-oriented, loving, kid-wrapped-up, best-mom-in-the-world person EVER!


Mine too. It's the fog. WORK ON YOU!! You're guessing, making assumptions and what ever else. You have no idea what's in her head and she isn't the person you married. If you want to guess, then try: confused, scared, depressed, mad, sad, angry. You'll hit 3 of 5 each time.

You asked me this question on my thread "W refuses to deal with past abuse, STILL claims that anything she did wrong in the M was in reaction to me, etc. How do you deal with that? Well, I guess you gave me the answer."

I don't deal with it. I took FULL responsibility of OUR past. Some say not to do this but with past abuse issues, you can't place any blame on W or it will push her away and turn into a pi$$ing match. She's trying to justify an A. You'll hear 10 reasons why she left. Just agree or validate. Why argue about it? You expect a response from W saying, "H, your right. I was an a$$ too. I'm not sure why I'm with this dirt bag. Why don't you go out and score a supermodel, that way were even. ILY, H". Why was it easy to take full responsibility? Easy, it DOESN'T MATTER. No one can fix the past. I got over it in two seconds and put it away. I identified the things I needed to work on and did

I'm not kicking you around because it's fun... Ok, it's a little fun, like 5%. The truth is that you're so focused on W, OM, D that you're burning a lot of energy on cheese less tunnels. I was there. Believe me, I was there. I had many great DBers kicking my sad a$$ for 3 months now. W hasn't changed a bit and that doesn't matter. I am a different man. Make yourself a different man. Everything else is just noise that can distract you.

Keep in mind that DBing w/ an active A is different than traditional DBing.

I'll be following your sitch... post often... post your thoughts... keep telling us your plan.
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: My Story - 12/29/08 11:34 AM
Quote:
And then the very best thing was his attempt at a response: "Oh, man, I'm getting misty." I had to ask W what that meant.
And she said, "Crying".
I was like "Why is he crying?"
She said, "Being sarcastic".
I said, "What? Wow. Well, he doesn't matter."


Actually, THEY are making fun of YOU here. She is telling you that she GETS his humor and it went right over your head. He is calling you a crybaby in a nutshell.

You will NEVER win her back with this type of childish nonsense.
Mature, confident men don't act this way. You are telling both of them that you don't respect him for interfering in a marriage, and yet you are telling her that you DO respect her, even though she is doing the same thing. This is making YOU look weak. Weak men are NOT attractive to women.

The actual facts here point that she doesn't respect YOU. It is coming across like you will take anything disrespectful from her EXCEPT if this is a PA. ????... (So you will take this from her if it is only an EA? You will take this from her when she will go out with him and refuse to go out with you?

That is not wise.

Jon, this IS an affair. PA,EA, or whatever else you want to call it. You won't earn her respect back until you show her that you won't tolerate a PA an EA or any type of intimtate relationship with OM. End of story.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/29/08 01:57 PM
Thanks, AIO, I need the kicking around. I will get over and catch up on your story.

This part is sort of new to me, and very confusing because W just hints around that it's a PA, when it seems to be more of a buddies thing. She has been VERY open and honest about starting to date, so why get all secretive?

However, I decided after that interchange that I wasn't going to do it anymore, and I told W this:

"Do not forward me any more texts from him. He does not know you or me or our kids or our lives."

And I wrote before that he ceases to exist to me at this point - W knows I think he's scum, and she knows I hate the A. I don't need to drive it home.

Any bonus points for that? \:D
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/29/08 02:05 PM
Gucci,
W gets me - she may be in a really bad place, but she gets my humor and stuff. We have always had inside jokes, and she will pick up on it - that's why I was so happy. Maybe I'm fooling myself, dunno.

I have very clearly stated to W that it IS an affair with a married man, and that marriage deserves respect at the least. Actually said we could get a dissolution in 30 days to do the "honorable" thing. I told her it was wrong in so many ways, and told my kids about it (making her mad). I tried to do the right thing, she refused, it's now on her conscience, and I don't worry about it any more.

You described why I'm so torn:

Quote:
You won't earn her respect back until you show her that you won't tolerate a PA an EA or any type of intimtate relationship with OM.


My catch-22 is that W says our problem is that we haven't been friends - so my 180 would be just being a nice casual friend. But how do I balance that without approval? Do I just completely ignore her? Wait til the A fizzles out? File divorce?

My Christian beliefs mean that I can only get a divorce for adultery - I know some people say that EA is same thing, but I don't know, would rather be sure. And, I don't know that OM isn't just a shoulder to cry on - I honestly don't believe it's a PA, because W would absolutely rub it in my face.

Now, I'm not going to accept an EA at all - I took of my ring (a 180). But what do you do? Just patience?

Anyway, I'm wide open to suggestions. I am NOT going to mention OM again.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/29/08 06:17 PM
I have been doing a lot of thinking, and more reading, especially on the infidelity boards, and some other materials on affairs.

I do know that W went 2.5 years without even looking at another man - turned down guys that I know for sure that asked her out. I'm not sure that she feels what she is doing is "wrong" - although the attempts to justify it are a little extreme. OM just happens to have been married when she met, and they both played guitar, etc - so it might've started "innocently" - but don't they all start that way? \:\)

Anyway, I'm seeing so much conflicting advice that I'm still pretty dadburn confused. Lots say stay "friends" and you'll maybe win them over - others say put your foot down and don't tolerate it. Is it a personality thing based on W? Or is it a combination of both - make clear how wrong A is, and then be courteous when interaction is required because of kids?

I know it's patience - W will have to run out of things to say to OM, and right now OM is a shoulder to cry on. That's fine, and understood.

I guess I feel like there are only two options, and believe there's gotta be a better third option:
Option 1: Be hard-core: do not accept it, file divorce, take down all pictures, take off ring.

Option 2: Smile, and get shat upon, and just be there through thick and thin (smells like cake-eating?)

Option 3: ???

More ramblings! \:\)
Posted By: Amy M Re: My Story - 12/29/08 06:27 PM
((((((JON))))))!!!

I've been away too long! I did want to stop by and say hello and give you hugs. You are getting great advice, so, I'm not worried about you on that front.

I had a lot of trouble with the friend idea too. I wanted H to know I was there for him, but I didn't want to condone his actions. In the end, I realized that building a true friendship with him now is not possible...maybe later...but, not now. And, to be honest, he doesn't really want a true friendship with me right now. I read someone's post to you about asking if she's the kind of friend you would choose right now. I asked myself that about my H a while back, and I realized, that he's the only "friend" I have that willingly betrayed me; that lied to me over and over; and that acted completely selfishly with no regard for my feelings or the best interest of my family. There's not room in my life for friends like that! I have enough other really great ones to take up my time!1

For awhile, I had to interact with him almost like I was angry just to get through it. That was difficult for me. But, now that I've detached, I am friendly. I can now give more than one word answers to his questions. And, I have on occasion sent him a TM out of the blue to tell him something about the kids that I didn't have to share. In fact we shared a joke recently about his sweater (that I think she gave him for Christmas). To me, that's the beginning of a friendship. I can't imagine ours will ever go past that, but I hope for the kids that we can be friends again at some level.

Only you can decide what actions are right for your sitch. And, if you ask God to help with that decision, I know He will!!!!

Love to you!!!
Amy
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/29/08 06:29 PM
Originally Posted By: JonF
Thanks, AIO, I need the kicking around. I will get over and catch up on your story.


In particular, look at how I was so emotionally investing in her. Look at how her behavior influenced mine. Not healthy and, dare I say, codependency. Look at how I encouraged bad behavior and gave her control me my emotions. I see that in you.

Originally Posted By: JonF
This part is sort of new to me, and very confusing because W just hints around that it's a PA, when it seems to be more of a buddies thing. She has been VERY open and honest about starting to date, so why get all secretive?


Like Gucci said, this is an A. The more the A escalates, the more secretive it will get. When W comes around that means R with OM is having probs. That is your opportunity to be "friends" just don't talk about the A. You need to start getting intuitive to your W’s ACTIONS.

Originally Posted By: JonF
However, I decided after that interchange that I wasn't going to do it anymore, and I told W this:

"Do not forward me any more texts from him. He does not know you or me or our kids or our lives."


Atta boy!!! I would have left the second sentance out. Don't "over share" your thoughts.

Originally Posted By: JonF
Any bonus points for that? \:D


The bonus is your improvement of yourself. At a certain point, you'll be so interested in yourself that you won't care what W is doing.
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/29/08 06:36 PM
Originally Posted By: Amy M
I read someone's post to you about asking if she's the kind of friend you would choose right now. I asked myself that about my H a while back, and I realized, that he's the only "friend" I have that willingly betrayed me; that lied to me over and over; and that acted completely selfishly with no regard for my feelings or the best interest of my family. There's not room in my life for friends like that! I have enough other really great ones to take up my time!


Right on Amy! I asked this question and the obvious answer is NO!!!! That's not to say you can't act friendly, just this isn't a friend to you.
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/29/08 06:51 PM
Originally Posted By: JonF
I'm not sure that she feels what she is doing is "wrong" - although the attempts to justify it are a little extreme.


Your W knows it's wrong. We chose to do wrong things all the time right? Drinking, smoking, speeding, rolling stop signs.... We all justify wrong things. This is just a whole lot more "wrong" than the day to day stuff. This justification comes from extreme emotional issues. You'll hear many justifications. I heard at least 8 differnt ones. Your W has hurt she burried for years. Again, nothing you can do about the past. Work on you.



Originally Posted By: JonF
Anyway, I'm seeing so much conflicting advice that I'm still pretty dadburn confused. Lots say stay "friends" and you'll maybe win them over - others say put your foot down and don't tolerate it. Is it a personality thing based on W? Or is it a combination of both - make clear how wrong A is, and then be courteous when interaction is required because of kids?


I position is you should act friendly ane be mysterious. Let your W lead any talk and never get upset (remember ducks back). You must have bounderies and enforce them. Example - No OM talk around you, etc. You decide what they are.


Originally Posted By: JonF
I guess I feel like there are only two options, and believe there's gotta be a better third option:
Option 1: Be hard-core: do not accept it, file divorce, take down all pictures, take off ring.

Option 2: Smile, and get shat upon, and just be there through thick and thin (smells like cake-eating?)


Option 3: Man Up. Have courage and honor. Be strong and patient. Be friendly but don't pursue. Smile, be funny, confident, work on your word usage. Get some new clothes, go out and build your social network. Get out and talk to people. Learn to manufactor conversation with strangers (when you start doing it, you'll see why it's important). Find YOU! When you W takes one step toward you, take 1/2 step back. That should keep you busy for a while! Time is on your side.

Your reeling a 50 pound fish with 10 pound test.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/29/08 06:56 PM
Thanks (((((Amy)))))) for stopping by - I left you a comment wondering about you!

I think I'm getting there - I'm just the type of person that has to play everything out to see if I can imagine the best scenario.

It is a very confusing situation. W forwards me texts from OM, acts very weird and pushing me away, and then later on she sends me and kids cute little texts about the Sound of Music. How are you supposed to have any consistency of response to that? I know, shame on me for liking the little positive things.
And, if you so desperately wanted a divorce, and I offer one, why wouldn't you take it?

Sigh, if only someone would send me a letter with explicit instructions.

Amy,
I think you nailed it for me - I have to completely get any care or concern out. I don't think I can stop loving her, but you're right - she is not being a friend if she is willing to hurt me, hurt the kids, and deliberately break apart our family. I heard W say "You don't respect me" (hah!) - and, after much reflection, I think it's because she thinks I don't respect her wishes to leave.

Just typing those words makes my stomach feel funny - I'm so worried that the OM and her will work out, even though it's highly unlikely, but you know what? That's life, and as someone else so nicely put it, "You never have to wake up in their shoes" .

Otherwise, what else do I have to lose? Keep clinging, and forever tear off any feelings W might have?

Here is my plan - feel free to comment:

1. Took off my ring - it was a symbol of my wife's love and commitment, and that's not there. I don't do it in spite, I simply am making a statement, and it is a 180 for me.

2. Completely dropping any comment on divorce, relationship, affair, OM - this will be a HUGE 180 for me. I'm a professional temperature taker. ;\)

3. No communication except as necessary for kids - maybe an occasional funny story about the kids, very light stuff

4. Refuse any more silly arguments - validate, express concern, listen to anything, but not respond. "Mmhmm, yes, I hear you, I understand"

5. Look good!

PMA alert - I have lost 22 pounds, and I walked into a client's office this morning - hadn't seen in two weeks, and she said, "Boy you've lost weight!" She said "From the back, I can't even tell it's you!" \:\)
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/29/08 06:58 PM
A In Ohio,

Explain to me "work on word usage?" I thought it was because of my text abbreviations, but thinking you mean something else?
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/29/08 07:26 PM
Originally Posted By: JonF
I think I'm getting there - I'm just the type of person that has to play everything out to see if I can imagine the best scenario.


The WAS will keep throwing you for loops. It's like temp taking on her end. There will be NO logic. Get grounded on your end. Dig in.

Originally Posted By: JonF
It is a very confusing situation. W forwards me texts from OM, acts very weird and pushing me away, and then later on she sends me and kids cute little texts about the Sound of Music. How are you supposed to have any consistency of response to that? I know, shame on me for liking the little positive things.

And, if you so desperately wanted a divorce, and I offer one, why wouldn't you take it?


Get used to it. W will flip flop all the time. You called her bluff by offering D and she didn't take it. That's a good sign.

Originally Posted By: JonF
I heard W say "You don't respect me" (hah!) - and, after much reflection, I think it's because she thinks I don't respect her wishes to leave.


She's telling you what she needs. These are her emotions and they aren't right or wrong. Maybe you discounted W in the past and she burried it. Maybe you did it without knowing. Also, understand the W may be using the wrong words to describe her crys for help. Maybe "respect" means validating, discounting, listening...etc. Respect is a vague word. You need to change yourself here. Maybe, tell her she's right.

Originally Posted By: JonF
Just typing those words makes my stomach feel funny - I'm so worried that the OM and her will work out, even though it's highly unlikely, but you know what? That's life, and as someone else so nicely put it, "You never have to wake up in their shoes" .


That's right. If she's happy then good for her. In your eyes this is NUNYO (none of you businss).


Originally Posted By: JonF
Here is my plan - feel free to comment: Took off my ring - it was a symbol of my wife's love and commitment, and that's not there. I don't do it in spite, I simply am making a statement, and it is a 180 for me.


What is your goal in doing this?

Originally Posted By: JonF
2. Completely dropping any comment on divorce, relationship, affair, OM - this will be a HUGE 180 for me. I'm a professional temperature taker.


That's the ticket!!!! Very good.

Originally Posted By: JonF
3. No communication except as necessary for kids - maybe an occasional funny story about the kids, very light stuff

4. Refuse any more silly arguments - validate, express concern, listen to anything, but not respond. "Mmhmm, yes, I hear you, I understand"

5. Look good!


Nice!!! You're getting it. I might not say "I hear you when" validating or active listening. Here is a link to emotional validation: http://eqi.org/valid.htm


Originally Posted By: JonF
PMA alert - I have lost 22 pounds, and I walked into a client's office this morning - hadn't seen in two weeks, and she said, "Boy you've lost weight!" She said "From the back, I can't even tell it's you!" \:\)


She was totally checking out your a$$. "From the back" = rear end, LOL.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/29/08 07:38 PM
Thanks, glad to be moving in the right direction:

Goal with the ring is this: I have said from day 1 (August 2006) that I was a family man, committed to marriage, never allow divorce, blah blah blah - I beat on W for months about "commitment" and all that, which meant diddlysquat to her. Unfortunately, I didn't read DR until well into this. I have pushed commitment, and why don't you honor your marriage, and I never gave her any feelings, just paperwork and promises. I haven't stopped believing in promises, but since W wants to feel, it just pushes her away.

Maybe I'm misguided, but I wanted to show her that I'm "letting go." I'm certainly not available - I don't know, maybe there is a better way to show her? I feel like the ring is punching her in the eye, though. Maybe that's me being a wimp and cowing down though. Sheesh! \:\)

And, yes, I'm sure my a$$ was getting checked out - the whole office lights up when I walk in. HAH!
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/29/08 07:48 PM
Originally Posted By: JonF
Explain to me "work on word usage?" I thought it was because of my text abbreviations, but thinking you mean something else?


Certainly. When you've been with someone for so long they know when your faking. Maybe your faking validation or your mad but trying to hide it. Even if your an expert in controlling your emotions and voice inflection, your word usage will be a dead giveaway.

Here's an example. You may use the phrase "I don't care" when you don't agree with something your W does but you're "taking one for the team".

Instance: W says, "You mind if I have dinner with the gals tonight?" You've worked all day, have a headache, your tired and don't really want her to go. But you know she needs a break too. You decide to take one for the team. You respond, "I don't care". Your W knows that is your standard response when you really mean, "I care, I don't want you to go, I'm going to be mad if you go". This triggers emotions w/ in your W. This causes her to be uneasy and she can't enjoy her time out with the gals. Then the night is no benfit to anyone.

Now, if you used the phrase, "No, I don't mind at all. Enjoy your night and have a margarita for me". This will not cause any emotional triggers for W. She will enjoy her time out, be more appreciative and relax more.

In addition, you'll be more interesting to W. Think about the people you enjoy talking too. Not only are they good speakers but they use intersting words. They don't repeat the same phrases often. They chose the right words. YOU WANT TO LISTEN TO THEM. This will also help you grow as a person.

This doesn't mean grab a dictionary and pick out the most obscure word you want find. It means, change your standard responses and phrases, unless, it's an inside thing between you and your W.

The last example sucked so I'll try something simple.... W: "Want to go to the movies tonight".
Jon: "OK"

See how boring and uninteresting that response was? Now think about how interesting a response like "absolutely, I would love to, gladly, certainly, I would like that" sounds. It's just more engaging.

This may seem trivial to most, but I have found this little growth excercise is very valuable in interacting with anyone. Think of it as a PMA.
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/29/08 08:02 PM

Originally Posted By: JonF
Goal with the ring is this: I have said from day 1 (August 2006) that I was a family man, committed to marriage, never allow divorce, blah blah blah - I beat on W for months about "commitment" and all that, which meant diddlysquat to her. Unfortunately, I didn't read DR until well into this. I have pushed commitment, and why don't you honor your marriage, and I never gave her any feelings, just paperwork and promises. I haven't stopped believing in promises, but since W wants to feel, it just pushes her away.


Jon, I'm calling your bluff. Right now, if you were in front of God, would the ring be on or off? Your entire quote is laced with feeling toward your W. What do YOU think about the ring? What does it mean to you? If the ring is on or off, your married. The ring is symbolism.

Yes, you pushed and pursued. That is the old Jon. What does new Jon think? Are you still a family man and committed to marriage?

If she had a prob with the ring, it's HER problem. A strong, honorable, confident man makes no qualms as to "why" he wears (or doesn't) his ring. Make the decision for you and where you are. To me, taking off the ring means your ready to walk away from this. But you have to mean it.

Originally Posted By: JonF
Maybe I'm misguided, but I wanted to show her that I'm "letting go." I'm certainly not available - I don't know, maybe there is a better way to show her? I feel like the ring is punching her in the eye, though. Maybe that's me being a wimp and cowing down though. Sheesh! \:\)


If you take it off because you ARE letting go, then I see no issue with taking it off. You better mean it. The last thing you want is to be putting it on and taking it off all the time.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/30/08 12:22 AM
I wore the ring to this point because W and I were at least communicating - until a month ago, probably coincidental with OM, we had dinner together, went places with kids together, had plans on holidays together, etc.

Anyway, where I am now:
W looked me in the eyes and promised to love me and be with me until we died - not being with anyone else, even through the bad times.

The ring was a symbol of that - with another man, she has shattered what it means.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/30/08 12:45 AM
OK, the hits just keep on coming!!!!

I haven't had this much fun in probably 3 years! \:\)

Anyway, on to the FUN!!!

I'm sure I'm going to get raked over the coals by A In Ohio, so I'm all prepared...

I get kids for the night on Mondays. Picked up S6 tonight - let D8 stay with W because she was sick, and didn't want to drag her out in this. Took S6 to his basketball camp, we went to Burger King, library, watched TV, played Wii, great time!

Anyway, I texted W, because S6 has a wee little MP3 player, and he was singing at the top of his lungs, and she sent back a grin.

A nice "light" thing, and didn't send anything else - had not communicated before this.

Then the fun started!

W: "When are you dropping of kids on Thursday" (NY Eve)

Me: "I am bringing Friday morning"

W: ":( Can I have them early - like Thursday afternoon. I got free tickets to the zoo"

Me: "Can't you go Tuesday night or Wednesday night?"

W: "No."

Me: "You previously refused family time, but want to take MY time?"

W: "You are getting extra time - I want to have kids when I want them, and I just don't want to be around you."

(Here's where I tried 180 and DBing - not sure if I went overboard?)

Me: "I am not getting 'extra' time, I am getting my time - the same time you will get next year. I'm sorry you have hard feelings towards me."

I decided to work with her on this, because she is really good about letting me have extra time. I want to be firm but reasonable. I felt like at this point I had clearly established that MY time was MY time, and she was not controlling it.

W calls me: All weepy, and she says I don't have the money to do fun stuff, and you get to do fun stuff all the time with the kids, and I want them to be able to have fun with me." This went on for probably 2 minutes.

I waited patiently until she finished, and I said, "W, I can fully understand that you feel frustrated, and I can see why it would bother you, but everything you just described is a result of your choices.

(You'll have to imagine spit flying, and emphasis on every word)
W: "And I'm SO happy with my choices"

Then she said she had to get her purse, and hung up. \:\)

I was at a basketball gym and could barely hear her, so after I left I texted, and said I was out and had a signal now, so she was welcome to call. I offered to swap Tuesday night for Thursday night. She texted me, and said "No, everything is fine."

So she texted me "I am going to get the kids on Thursday. At 5. Thank you for your cooperation. Me and D8 are going to BW3 (wings restaurant)"

I texted back "No. I checked my email, and suggested I have them that day, and you said OK." (I was willing to work with her, but not be dictated to) I also said, "I am willing to discuss alternatives. Have fun at BW3s!"

I then texted her: "The chipotle sauce is really good, not too spicy"

W: "Fine, I have let you have them many times, but no more, from now on I will keep them all of my days."

(Funny note: I have probably kept them for her 40 or 50 times in the past 6 months, she may have watched them for me 5 or 6 times)

Me: "I have kept them many times for you. I realize you are upset, and I wish it wasn't so."

Me: "As a result of your choices, things are going to get more and more difficult. I understand you said you were happy with your decisions, and I'm glad to see you happy!"

W: "I have always worked with you, and you are not nice."

Me: "I'm sorry you feel I'm not nice. I offered to cancel MY zoo plans and let you pick up the kids a little early on Thursday in return for me keeping next Tues? I understand your choices have made life difficult, and I want the kids to have fun w/ you too" (Yeah, I know this probably wasn't the best)

W called me, and I ignored her - texted her that I was at the library.

Then I remembered she was going to BW3, and D8 was supposed to be sick - so I asked if D8 was feeling better.

W: "Yes, I am folding laundry and we are leaving - she wants it"

Me: "I'm glad she's feeling better - y'all can have a couple of beers and watch football, hyuck hyuck"

Still haven't called her back.

OK, let me have it. I tried to validate every negative feeling. I don't like saying "I'm sorry you feel that way" The "I'm sorry" doesn't sound sincere - so am looking for a better phrase.

Before you unleash too much - this was a HUGE 180 for me. I maintained complete control, and even took advantage of her whining to point out that it was her choice - you can see by her response that it MAJORLY POed her. \:\)
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/30/08 01:53 AM
Whooeeee! Well, I have to say that I'm getting results!

I told myself about a week ago that things are going to get worse before they get better, and boy did they!

W texted me after the exchange above that she was coming to get S6 - I replied that I would drop him off, because we were playing Wii golf. She came anyway to get him, and she was spitting fire...

She came up and whispered in my ear, "I HATE you." Then she announced to D8 and S6 that she was going to start keeping them on Monday nights, and Daddy wasn't going to keep them anymore. I smiled, and said that I was very sorry she felt that way, but we could have a conversation about that wasn't in front of the kids. She kept on going, then marched them out. I told her we could have a calm civil conversation, but I wasn't going to fight, and she said, "No, I'm calm, just not letting you control me."

She said, "I could get full custody, I have 7 years of documentation on you, and I could go to court right now and file for child support, and get more money."

Then, "I can't believe you, you never change."

She rolled out - I was not going to make a scene in front of the kids, so I just smiled, and kept saying, "Not in front of the kids."

After she left, I texted her that I had documentation stating that Monday was my day, and I was not going to change. I told her I regretted that she felt so harshly, and I would be happy to discuss if she wished to share her feelings.

Then, I ended with this: "If you talk like this in front of the kids again, I will leave the room. I will not allow them to be used as pawns."

I left a message stating something like the following:
"Hey, W, how's it going? Just following up on our chat, and I have the documentation here, and I'm going to have to stand firm on the schedule with the kids. It states here that I would have them Monday nights.
I was a bit surprised by your anger, and I'm sorry that you have such harsh feelings. If you'd like to discuss without the kids around, then you are more than welcome to call me. I'd like to understand why you're feeling the way you are? Anyway, talk atcha later."

I talked like that on purpose, because I usually tend to respond pretty angrily.

This is probably the hardest part of dealing with W - she will come in, lay down her anger, and then trip out the door with no discussion, no warning, and then she'll seethe on that anger, and never let it go. I am doing SO much better, because I don't respond in kind anymore at all, but sheesh.

What fun! I'm pretty shaken up, but am going to hang tough. I'm thinking that she doesn't like being stood up to! Maybe it leads to ugliness, but I'm not going to compromise my kids - that is over the line.
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/30/08 01:57 AM
Wow..{{{Jon}}} I can't believe she had the nerve to just march in there and take them on your night..ARGH..YOU handled that pretty calmly, actually the whole thing, IMHO..but of course AinO and Pup will tell you if we are wrong in thinking that!

WOW..I hate that your night ended like that..

Tawnya
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/30/08 02:23 AM
I'm sure they will - thanks for your vote of confidence.

Here is a question - if spouse comes in raring like that, is it a good idea to offer to listen? I read that on AinO's validation page, so thought I'd try it out. I won't get taken up on the offer, but figured I'd put it out there. \:\)
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/30/08 02:40 AM
Confession time, and maybe a 2x4 - maybe a attaboy?

When wife said she had documentation, I had to laugh. She thinks 5 year old emails of us arguing are going to win her the money, full custody, house, etc. She just has no concept of how the court works. MEANWHILE, I have documented proof that we have been "legally" separated in the court's eyes for 2.5 years - hurting her on custody, alimony, child support, etc - plus proof of an affair, as well as a 7 month agreement where I have had kids 50% of the time, and usually more.

Anyway, I lost my cool for about 10 seconds when she was threatening me with custody, etc - and I said, "W, you have no idea what you're getting into, and you will be ruined, so laugh it up." She just smirked - I feel so sorry for her!

Anyway, I called tonight, (got voicemail), and just said this, "I said a couple of harsh things tonight, and I apologize. I want to contribute to healing, not more anger." That was it.

(preparing for body blows)
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/30/08 03:50 AM
Duck and weave ;\)

Tawnya
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/30/08 03:51 AM
Oh wait..it's bob and weave and duck and cover..hmm..ok so don't hire ME as your coach in your boxing match LOL!

Tawnya
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/30/08 04:28 AM
Originally Posted By: Tawnya
Wow..{{{Jon}}} I can't believe she had the nerve to just march in there and take them on your night..ARGH..YOU handled that pretty calmly, actually the whole thing, IMHO..but of course AinO and Pup will tell you if we are wrong in thinking that!


Wow. Puppy and I in the same sentance. He was the first guy to start kicking my a$$ on the boards. I feel somewhat honored... Maybe I can be the kinder gentler Puppy? \:\)

As far as your thread..... one sec... brb....
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/30/08 05:42 AM
Originally Posted By: JonF
I'm sure I'm going to get raked over the coals by A In Ohio, so I'm all prepared...


I'm with you bro.... Let's walk thru this...

Originally Posted By: JonF
I get kids for the night on Mondays. Picked up S6 tonight - let D8 stay with W because she was sick, and didn't want to drag her out in this. Took S6 to his basketball camp, we went to Burger King, library, watched TV, played Wii, great time!

Anyway, I texted W, because S6 has a wee little MP3 player, and he was singing at the top of his lungs, and she sent back a grin.

A nice "light" thing, and didn't send anything else - had not communicated before this.


Very Nice!!! Good GALing.. Don't text too much. Once in a great while is fine. BTW, texting is not the best method of communication for DBing.

Maybe you can say something like, "Give me a call. I can't keep up with the texts". This way she can hear the New Jon. The strong, confident, happy Jon.

Originally Posted By: JonF

W: "When are you dropping of kids on Thursday" (NY Eve)
Me: "I am bringing Friday morning"
W: ":( Can I have them early - like Thursday afternoon. I got free tickets to the zoo"
Me: "Can't you go Tuesday night or Wednesday night?"
W: "No."
Me: "You previously refused family time, but want to take MY time?"
W: "You are getting extra time - I want to have kids when I want them, and I just don't want to be around you."
(Here's where I tried 180 and DBing - not sure if I went overboard?)
Me: "I am not getting 'extra' time, I am getting my time - the same time you will get next year. I'm sorry you have hard feelings towards me."

I decided to work with her on this, because she is really good about letting me have extra time. I want to be firm but reasonable. I felt like at this point I had clearly established that MY time was MY time, and she was not controlling it.


Jon - I'm also very selfish with my time concerning the kids. I told W as much. There is a certain way to do this and you have to use tact and skill to get it done.

Notice your W asked if she could have the kids in a nice way? Maybe rewarding this behavior will help your "friendship" effort. There is no right or wrong answer. I noticed that you flopped on your stance? You told her no then decided to work with her. MY time is MY time = NO.

We've been talking about being strong. You can be strong and flexable (Gucci-If your reading, this it's a direct quote from you \:\) ). You feel you made your point about "my time is my time" but then you decided to work with her on it. So, did you really make that point?

2X4: ME: "You previously refused family time, but want to take MY time?" This is punishing. You're rubbing her face in what she's not (pointing out her faults). Didn't your W say you didn't respect her?

2X4: W:"I just don't want to be around you". IMO, responding to this is encouraging bad behavior. Maybe a simple, "I understand" is plenty if you even want to reply to that behavior but I'n not sure why you would.

2X4: Me: "I am not getting 'extra' time," - You just told her she was wrong. Validate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe you can say, "I'm sure it seems that way".

IMO, there is too much "chatter" between you two when communicating. Be nice and too the point. Stop letting the bickering happen.


Originally Posted By: JonF
W calls me: All weepy, and she says I don't have the money to do fun stuff, and you get to do fun stuff all the time with the kids, and I want them to be able to have fun with me." This went on for probably 2 minutes.

I waited patiently until she finished, and I said, "W, I can fully understand that you feel frustrated, and I can see why it would bother you, but everything you just described is a result of your choices.


Great job listening!!!! Now validate when she finishes up, "It's hard on all of us. I'm sure it's especially hard on you". See?

She called you crying. She was reaching out to you. This sort of your think is your chance to shine. To show that your respect her. She's talking about a real issue, not about A, so be her friend. IMO, you punished her with the "everything you just described is a result of your choices" line. She knows what she chose. What did you expect her to say? A WAS is defensive in the first place. Maybe make a goal of getting W to let her guard down while respecting your bounderies?

Originally Posted By: JonF
(You'll have to imagine spit flying, and emphasis on every word) W: "And I'm SO happy with my choices"


Saw that coming. I think you backed her in a corner so she came out swinging. This is a conditioned response because she's scared of you.

Originally Posted By: JonF
I was at a basketball gym and could barely hear her, so after I left I texted, and said I was out and had a signal now, so she was welcome to call. I offered to swap Tuesday night for Thursday night. She texted me, and said "No, everything is fine."


I understand the jesture but after arguing why bother? Let your W come to you if having the kids is so important. Anything else is pursuing...

Originally Posted By: JonF
So she texted me "I am going to get the kids on Thursday. At 5. Thank you for your cooperation. Me and D8 are going to BW3 (wings restaurant)"

I texted back "No. I checked my email, and suggested I have them that day, and you said OK." (I was willing to work with her, but not be dictated to) I also said, "I am willing to discuss alternatives. Have fun at BW3s!"


So you told your W no, then offered to swap, told her no again, then threw some facts from an email in her face? If you want to work with her, then work with her. You let her pull you into a pi$$ing match and now your knee deep in... well... pi$$. Always take the higher road. It seems like a passive-agressive type sitch or something... IMO, your emotions are too high. Yes, she is ripping your heart out. Yes, she is tearing your family to pieces. You're going to realize what your made of during this ordeal. Stregnth and honor bro.

Originally Posted By: JonF
W: "Fine, I have let you have them many times, but no more, from now on I will keep them all of my days."


This is bad behavior. No need to respond to this. Any response is encouragement.

Originally Posted By: JonF
(Funny note: I have probably kept them for her 40 or 50 times in the past 6 months, she may have watched them for me 5 or 6 times)


It always works out like this. Expect it.

Originally Posted By: JonF
Me: "As a result of your choices, things are going to get more and more difficult. I understand you said you were happy with your decisions, and I'm glad to see you happy!"


If you keep reminding her that she hates you and rub her nose in the mess, it only validates her emotional feelings toward you. I read somewhere that for every one hurtful thing you say, it takes 5 nice things to make up for it.

Originally Posted By: JonF
W: "I have always worked with you, and you are not nice."

Me: "I'm sorry you feel I'm not nice. I offered to cancel MY zoo plans and let you pick up the kids a little early on Thursday in return for me keeping next Tues? I understand your choices have made life difficult, and I want the kids to have fun w/ you too" (Yeah, I know this probably wasn't the best)


Whew. Reminder number 5 that she f8cked up her life. I was reading the WAS board one day... believe me they know they messed up their life. Are you SHOWING her that the better life is with you? Again, your boundery is OM discussion. I have not seen any yet.

Your right, drop the fun with you line. You realized it was a mistake so I'll keep my 2X4 on that one... \:\)

Originally Posted By: JonF
Then I remembered she was going to BW3, and D8 was supposed to be sick - so I asked if D8 was feeling better.

W: "Yes, I am folding laundry and we are leaving - she wants it"

Me: "I'm glad she's feeling better - y'all can have a couple of beers and watch football, hyuck hyuck"


Jon - Make a goal. How long can you go without saying, texting or emailing your W? You need to get some distance here, IMO.


Originally Posted By: JonF
OK, let me have it. I tried to validate every negative feeling. I don't like saying "I'm sorry you feel that way" The "I'm sorry" doesn't sound sincere - so am looking for a better phrase.


This isn't easy and your hurting. It's not always necessary to say your sorry. Talk to her like a friend when she brings a real problem to the table (like she has no money to do fun stuff). Just don't bail her out of the problem. When she's telling you that your lizard turd, ignore it. Don't encourage bad behavior.

Originally Posted By: JonF
Before you unleash too much - this was a HUGE 180 for me. I maintained complete control, and even took advantage of her whining to point out that it was her choice - you can see by her response that it MAJORLY POed her. \:\)


Do you want your W to be majorly POed? I mean that is directed AT you.

You did well. You know there is room for improvement. My suggestion would be to limit the contact, shorten the conversations and choose words carefully.
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/30/08 05:55 AM
Originally Posted By: JonF
W texted me after the exchange above that she was coming to get S6 - I replied that I would drop him off, because we were playing Wii golf. She came anyway to get him, and she was spitting fire...

She came up and whispered in my ear, "I HATE you." Then she announced to D8 and S6 that she was going to start keeping them on Monday nights, and Daddy wasn't going to keep them anymore. I smiled, and said that I was very sorry she felt that way, but we could have a conversation about that wasn't in front of the kids. She kept on going, then marched them out. I told her we could have a calm civil conversation, but I wasn't going to fight, and she said, "No, I'm calm, just not letting you control me."


WOW!!!! Couldn't imagine my W busting in the door and grabbing the kids. That is complete disrespect toward you and even worse for the kids. What kind of lesson does her little rant teach the kids? It's OK to throw a tantrum to get your way? WTF.

Maybe it's time set a boundary about when W is "allowed" to come over? Was she supposed to pick your D up? When was the exchange supposed to be?

The control comment stems from the back and forth earlier about NYE. We talked about that. You have to make it seem like her idea.

Originally Posted By: JonF
Then, "I can't believe you, you never change."


As Puppy would say, this is script for WAS.

Originally Posted By: JonF
She rolled out - I was not going to make a scene in front of the kids, so I just smiled, and kept saying, "Not in front of the kids."


Good job defending the kids!!!! Keep them far away from this sort of behavior. That is being a man (and a dad).

No need to smile if your pi$$ed. "Not in front of the kids. I think you should leave now" is all you need.

The rest is a pi$$ing match you don't need. Avoid it or don't play into it. It's counter productive.

Notice how one bad exchange leads to another? You have to end that cycle.

I've been saying pi$$ a lot today. Sup with that \:\)
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/30/08 02:42 PM
I will work backwards, start with your second post - she mostly "burst in" because she knows I won't do anything in front of the kids, and I refuse to involve them in any way - even if it means me losing out or getting hurt. Will I give up 10 minutes with S6 so she can have her tantrum? Sure. This is not a weakness - in court, I would fight her down to my last ounce of breath.

I fought back SO many things in this - I chewed my tongue off to not say anything. I made my one little slip, but it was 5 seconds out of 10 minutes, and I even ended by offering to have a calm discussion with W to figure things out.

She refused and stomped off. You know, the good thing is that the kids just wanted out of there. They will see me with a calm expression, and politely asking W not to talk in front of them, and they will hear her being nasty and angry, and I can live with that.

I would rather keep my relationship with my kids than get a few cheap shots in.

I think that is weighing on W too - kids are getting REALLY close to me.

S6 told me last night that he wished he could stay and sleep with me. \:\)

Anyway, best thing is that I did a 180 - one of my dubious talents is getting in really good parting shots that just sting and burn. And I just stayed calm and polite the entire time.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/30/08 04:43 PM
As to the first post, you nailed me.

W is usually cold, distant, and emotionless towards me - I'm sure she's pouring out tears and emotions on OM.

I'm frustrated at myself - I complain to myself that W is just "not there" and then have an opportunity where she opens up to ME, is vulnerable emotionally, and I use it to get in a couple of moral cheap shots. She was not a whiny crybaby trying to get her way - she absolutely is not like that, never has.

I realize it would have been a drop in the bucket to have been nice there, but you have to start with a single drop, I guess.

Of course, the opposite is also true - I'm sure the very next number she dialed was OM, and he probably stepped right in, validated her feelings, said lots of coochy-coo things. Sigh, round one, I lose.

Also, I do mention OM on here, but am not obsessing - I just see him as another person that is taking down my wife. I had this sort of arrogant attitude that he didn't matter because I was the H, and he was just some guy - but that's a pretty stupid way to look at it, and that'll lose you your marriage real quick! I have to see him as basically competition. All he really is a way for me to keep myself in line, because I know I have to work 10 times harder, and he barely has to do anything. I do not mention OM to W.

My lesson for the month - now, I have to wait three weeks until she gets over it. \:\)
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/30/08 07:01 PM
Jon - This isn't easy and your learning about yourself (the cheap shots, etc). Make a plan, establish some realistic goals and start there.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/30/08 07:58 PM
Yeah, I'm actually making myself not even think about it at this point. I need to give W some cooling down time as well, and see what she does.

I'm hoping she will cool off - but if she tries to start keeping the kids away from me, things could get really ugly.

Just praying and letting God work at this point - when I get in the way, I invariable mess things up as you can see.

Tomorrow, I'm going to do exactly what you said - sit down establish the goals, memorize and beat them into my head, and go.
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: My Story - 12/30/08 08:23 PM
Quote:
We've been talking about being strong. You can be strong and flexable (Gucci-If your reading, this it's a direct quote from you ).



Feel free to use my quotes. I share my quotes. I don't share my women.... ;\)
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/30/08 09:16 PM
I like it, Gucci, "strong and flexible". That's me!
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/30/08 11:20 PM
WHEW - COLLAPSE ON THE FLOOR...

I had to go by W's apt a couple of times to get to a client, and to go to Walmart, and I noticed that her car was gone. She is with the kids, and is sort of a homebody, so of course, I let my mind wander, and thinking, after last night, she was down at court doing who know what.

I have been flipping out ALL night - thinking the worst. I know it's stupid...

So, glory day, she actually CALLED me a few minutes ago, and said she was working. She is going to drop the kids off tonight, and let them stay until 2pm tomorrow, then I will have them all New Year's Eve, and New Year's Day - in exchange, I will give them to her early on New Year's Day at 5:00pm.

Basically this is what I agreed to yesterday at like 5:30PM - then she spent the rest of the night flipping out and losing her mind. I have no idea what that was about. She was very aloof, but told me she had talked to the kids about the schedule, and set it up. Then, I thought this was really big, she asked me if it was OK.

I'm SO glad that I kept my cool - I know I slipped up in some spots, but believe me, a year or two ago, A in Ohio would've spent 3 hours going over what I did wrong. \:\) I figured that W would sleep on it, and cool down.

So the best thing is that she isn't going hardcore, filing for child support, trying to keep kids away. She is pretty frigid right now, but at least I'm back to square one!

Wahoo! I honestly believe her asking me if it is OK, and going with the schedule is because I mostly kept my cool, and just said "I'm sorry you feel that way." Complete 180s for me, and I know the next time will just be better.

One other thing - the kids decided to go to zoo without her because she had to work, and instead she is going to have a little family party Thursday night. So I texted her, "I'm sorry you have to miss the zoo". She responded that it was ok, they'd have fun Thursday.

Just wanted to show her that I know she probably wishes she was there. I tried to make a joke and she didn't respond, so either had to go back to work, or it's too early for funny stuff.

Now, I so need to CHILL OUT, and just give her a few days!
Posted By: Tawnya Re: My Story - 12/30/08 11:53 PM
{{{Jon}}} Glad you heard from her, glad you get the schedule you had basically agreed to already, and glad your mind can be at ease now \:\)

YEAH!!! \:\)

Tawnya
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/31/08 12:35 AM
Originally Posted By: JonF
WHEW - I had to go by W's apt a couple of times to get to a client, and to go to Walmart, and I noticed that her car was gone. She is with the kids, and is sort of a homebody, so of course, I let my mind wander, and thinking, after last night, she was down at court doing who know what.

I have been flipping out ALL night - thinking the worst. I know it's stupid...

So, glory day, she actually CALLED me a few minutes ago, and said she was working. She is going to drop the kids off tonight, and let them stay until 2pm tomorrow, then I will have them all New Year's Eve, and New Year's Day - in exchange, I will give them to her early on New Year's Day at 5:00pm.


At a certain point, you'll stop worrying about where and what your W is doing. There is a no good way expedite this. Once you internally realize your the best option for your W, it will go away.

You'll notice a WAS will always make eveything their idea. Just roll with it. The idea is to let them think it is their idea. This sounds mean, or controlling, but if you do it properly, the effect is profound.

Originally Posted By: JonF
Then, I thought this was really big, she asked me if it was OK.


Now were talking!!! Very good. The more calm and stable you are, the more good results you'll get.

Originally Posted By: JonF
I'm SO glad that I kept my cool - I know I slipped up in some spots, but believe me, a year or two ago, A in Ohio would've spent 3 hours going over what I did wrong. \:\) I figured that W would sleep on it, and cool down.


Your doing well. My perspective is that you have years of your own bad behavior to make up for (or correct). It will take a LONG TIME for your W to trust you again. You must be consistant.

Originally Posted By: JonF
So the best thing is that she isn't going hardcore, filing for child support, trying to keep kids away. She is pretty frigid right now, but at least I'm back to square one!


This is very good. Keep the momentum going. The great news is that YOU control the momentum. The calm, cool, strong, funny, understanding New Jon has control of this!


Originally Posted By: JonF
Just wanted to show her that I know she probably wishes she was there. I tried to make a joke and she didn't respond, so either had to go back to work, or it's too early for funny stuff.


Making jokes via text messaging isn't the best idea. Maybe once in a great while. Too choppy. Focus more on solid communication than jokes. Consistency is paramount right now. You must show her your stable and not reacting to her. Sometimes joking can be looked at as you trying to get a reaction from W. When a joke goes wrong, it gets uncomfortable.

Originally Posted By: JonF
Now, I so need to CHILL OUT, and just give her a few days!


Bravo Jon! Now disappear (from your W). Very little contact. Stop the texting, only call when you have too. When you W picks up the kids be short and kind. Be distant and focus on you. Make yourself better and get more self-esteem going. LET HER MISSS YOU.

Overall a very good job!
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/31/08 01:21 AM
It was a HORRIBLE night, but again, I'm pretty proud of myself - previously it would've degenerated, and I would've have gotten mad back - I would have probably "scored stinger points" but would not have gotten the reaction I did. By the way, that is how W apologizes. When she screws something up, she comes back in a very in-control way, and basically gives you what you asked for, and then asks if you're OK with it.

AinO,
I was flipping out about W because I was worried about losing time with my kids - not where she was. That is a personal victory for me - used to freak out all the time.

My next task - I need to focus on not caring where she is all the time. Right now, I haven't had much trouble with jealousy, but when it is a family time like this, and she refused to be together with the kids, it bothers me, especially since she is probably going to go out with OM. OM has 3 kids, but is content to be a McDonalds dad, just has them a couple days every couple of weeks. Makes me sad for them.

But, I take a deep breath, and I realize kids and I are going to have a blast, and bring in the New Year together, and she is going to miss out. They will remember that they invited her, and she said no.

That is my challenge for ME, and it is getting easier, with my secondary challenge being to completely disconnect now. Luckily, W is pretty pissy, so I won't have to worry about keeping contact short!

I do remember that the last time I cut off contact, she not only came over and came in, she was friendly, fun, laughing. Sigh, it's like in golf: they tell you the easier you swing, the farther the ball will go.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/31/08 01:59 AM
AinO,
I am stealing this advice that you gave Veronica, and actually may have it tattooed backward on my forehead so I can read it everywhere I go - bathroom, car, etc.

Quote:
Over analyzing, emotional thinking, frustration.... That is due to loss of focus. Go over your goals every day. Concentrate on you PMA. Things will fall in place if, and only if, you stick to the plan.
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/31/08 02:35 AM
Originally Posted By: JonF
I am stealing this advice that you gave Veronica, and actually may have it tattooed backward on my forehead so I can read it everywhere I go - bathroom, car, etc.


LOL. Classic post.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/31/08 03:11 AM
I get to put myself to the test of your advice above, so I'm going to get on her and vent/journal and release a little steam.

W had plans to go with kids to the zoo on Thursday evening, but gave kids option of going to the zoo tonight with a friend, and having a "party" Thursday night. The kids chose that - it was all W's idea, and she is really good at wording things so that the kids will go for it.

I found out why soon.

I said something to them about playing the Wii for the party, and taking our two controllers to have four controllers, and they said, "Well, Mommy's boyfriend is coming." Pisses me off to here them call OM that. W doesn't even call him her boyfriend - they are so just naive, and think it's just something normal that is happening. Breaks my heart.

Anyway, so what happened is this: W beat on me and beat on me to get the kids at 5pm so she could go to the zoo to them. Threw the huge fit you saw above. Then, now that OM is around, she skips out on the fun FAMILY together time, to throw a party to be with OM. She worked, and let one of her friends take the kids. I gave up MY holiday time because I felt bad for W, and wanted her to have a special time with the kids. Remember, she called me crying, wanting to take them to the zoo, and make a special memory, and I always got to have the fun things. Gritting teeth!

The only thing that makes it tolerable is that there are a couple of kids and other friends coming as well - so for the third time, W is keeping a lot of people involved. How weird is it that I know I can go up against OM, and beat him with W - but when it comes to having him around my kids, it about makes me lose my mind?

AinO, I said on your thread that I thought W needed to learn lesson on her own, but if it ever goes beyond a group setting, I'm following your words, and giving that boundary/ultimatum.

deep breaths, Jon
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/31/08 03:36 AM
OK, so read my post above before reading this. C'mon A in Ohio, let me have it! \:\)

I was pretty angry that W had been what I felt was dishonest, and I thought she had put on crocodile tears, and I decided that I needed to stand up to her taking advantage of my time, in a kind, but firm way (Gucci: firm but flexible!). I messaged her and said, "I'm disappointed that you were so emotional about going to the zoo, and spending special time with the kids, and then you sent them with a friend, and are throwing a party with alot of people instead of it being a bonding time."

I told her basically what I said above - that I gave up special family holiday time so that SHE could have special family holiday time.

She called me! Holy cow, second time in two days, and she will never call or answer phone, and rarely will respond via text. Big thing to note before reading: she also will NEVER discuss her feelings with me - part of the reason we are where we are!

She was pretty hot under the color, and she started off "I'm sick and tired of you making out that I don't do things with the kids - I do make special times, and the KIDS picked the party time. I told them that we were going to the zoo, and THEY wanted to have the party."

I started to explain myself, and she said, "Just listen to me!"

A in Ohio will be proud. I closed my mouth. \:\)

She continued, and it was very odd because she said this, "I'm having D8, and S6, and babysitter/BFF, and BFF's friend, and little kid from down the street, and we're going to play games."

She specifically left out OM - is she just trying to spare my feelings? Just seemed odd - because she is in this self-righteous phase where she would name him on purpose because she is "doing nothing wrong."

Anyway, I just listened without making a peep. When she finished, I said, "W, you're right. I was just about to message you and tell you that I shouldn't have said anything, because it wasn't fair of me to butt in because I don't know what you and the kids talked about. I just remember taking D8/S6 to the roller skating rink for the first time, and it was awesome teaching them, and I'll never forget it, and I want you to have memories like that too."

Narrator break-in: W has it in her head that I think she's a bad mom. I have never implied this in any way, shape, or form. Maybe her guilt?

I continued: "You said that I think you're a bad mom, but I think you're a great mom - as a matter of fact, I have always said that you're the best mom I have ever seen. I know you will make special times with the kids, and I hope you guys have an absolute blast!"

W: (pause) "Well, OK."

Me: "Ok, see ya later."

I don't think I have rendered W basically speechless in many years. It is true about the best mom thing - before this, I would have put her up for mom of the year award - makes this that much harder to understand.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/31/08 04:18 AM
Final bit of journaling for the night:

While W was pitching-a-fit angry at me last night, she told D8 that OM was the "nicest man she'd ever met" - probably directly in response to W telling me that I was mean.

Somehow, that is oddly comforting to me - in an affair, smoldering sex is hard to compete with. But a guy that's "nice" - now THAT'S something I can compete with.

(Yes, I know, AinO - don't listen to what WAS says, it's so much crap)

Sucking it up, and being prepared. Good night! \:\)
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/31/08 04:48 AM
Originally Posted By: JonF
OK, so read my post above before reading this. C'mon A in Ohio, let me have it! \:\)

I was pretty angry that W had been what I felt was dishonest, and I thought she had put on crocodile tears, and I decided that I needed to stand up to her taking advantage of my time, in a kind, but firm way (Gucci: firm but flexible!). I messaged her and said, "I'm disappointed that you were so emotional about going to the zoo, and spending special time with the kids, and then you sent them with a friend, and are throwing a party with alot of people instead of it being a bonding time."

I told her basically what I said above - that I gave up special family holiday time so that SHE could have special family holiday time.

She called me! Holy cow, second time in two days, and she will never call or answer phone, and rarely will respond via text. Big thing to note before reading: she also will NEVER discuss her feelings with me - part of the reason we are where we are!

She was pretty hot under the color, and she started off "I'm sick and tired of you making out that I don't do things with the kids - I do make special times, and the KIDS picked the party time. I told them that we were going to the zoo, and THEY wanted to have the party."

I started to explain myself, and she said, "Just listen to me!"

A in Ohio will be proud. I closed my mouth. \:\)

She continued, and it was very odd because she said this, "I'm having D8, and S6, and babysitter/BFF, and BFF's friend, and little kid from down the street, and we're going to play games."

She specifically left out OM - is she just trying to spare my feelings? Just seemed odd - because she is in this self-righteous phase where she would name him on purpose because she is "doing nothing wrong."

Anyway, I just listened without making a peep. When she finished, I said, "W, you're right. I was just about to message you and tell you that I shouldn't have said anything, because it wasn't fair of me to butt in because I don't know what you and the kids talked about. I just remember taking D8/S6 to the roller skating rink for the first time, and it was awesome teaching them, and I'll never forget it, and I want you to have memories like that too."

Narrator break-in: W has it in her head that I think she's a bad mom. I have never implied this in any way, shape, or form. Maybe her guilt?

I continued: "You said that I think you're a bad mom, but I think you're a great mom - as a matter of fact, I have always said that you're the best mom I have ever seen. I know you will make special times with the kids, and I hope you guys have an absolute blast!"

W: (pause) "Well, OK."

Me: "Ok, see ya later."

I don't think I have rendered W basically speechless in many years. It is true about the best mom thing - before this, I would have put her up for mom of the year award - makes this that much harder to understand.


Bravo, Bravo!!!! Validated, STUFU and listened, told her she was right.... Very good. You should be pumped about this.

You started picking a fight but got yourself out of it. Very nice. Fights are counterproductive (among other things \:\) ).

Here are some tips that are all over this board... Commit to memory, it will make your life more enjoyable...

-WAS will be dishonest. WAS in A will lie even more. Remember Jon, this is about your W's emotions so don't get caught up in facts (truth). Don't argue facts.

-Never, ever, ever argue your W's feelings. Wait, don't argue ANYONE'S feelings.

-Don't take what the kids say to heart. Don't take what WAS says to heart. This will be very difficult.

-Make your decisions for your sake, not because WAS turn on the water works. Anything you "think" in terms of WAS is just guessing and it's futile. We can't be sure she was manipulating you. Maybe she is really upset about all this. Pick the best option every time. Don't be selfish.

- This is a quote from you, "I do remember that the last time I cut off contact, she not only came over and came in, she was friendly, fun, laughing. Sigh, it's like in golf: they tell you the easier you swing, the farther the ball will go. " --- Keep this up. DBer's call it going dark.

Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/31/08 12:53 PM
Thanks, AinO - I'm tryin'...

I wouldn't have let the argument continue - if W had responded poorly, and not had the good chat, I would've said, "No need to argue, just sharing my feelings."

Here is the text of an email I sent concerning how I responded to her call the other day - when she was crying, and I got in the stab about it being her choices. I mean every word of this:

----------------------------------------------
I was wrong yesterday. When you first texted me about getting the kids early, I guess I got a little defensive... Ok, maybe really defensive!

And then by the time you called me, I just thought that you were trying to control me or bulldoze me over.

However, you called, and poured out your heart to me - I felt real pain from you, and I took advantage of that to try to get in a couple of moral cheap shots, and I am ashamed.

I am not like that, and I won't be like that.

You said a couple of days ago that you felt I didn't respect you, and in that phone call I DIDN'T treat you with the respect that you deserve.

I'm sorry.
--------------------------------------------------

Now, I'm going extremely dim. My goal is January 15 with no contact initiated by me.
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/31/08 04:18 PM
Originally Posted By: JonF
I was wrong yesterday. When you first texted me about getting the kids early, I guess I got a little defensive... Ok, maybe really defensive!

And then by the time you called me, I just thought that you were trying to control me or bulldoze me over.

However, you called, and poured out your heart to me - I felt real pain from you, and I took advantage of that to try to get in a couple of moral cheap shots, and I am ashamed.

I am not like that, and I won't be like that.

You said a couple of days ago that you felt I didn't respect you, and in that phone call I DIDN'T treat you with the respect that you deserve.

I'm sorry.


Jon - I know you mean well by sending this message, however, this is classic pursuing. Make sure this is the last apology email you send.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/31/08 04:51 PM
Interesting day today, sort of broke my Jan 15 rule, but W DID start it.

I texted W asking her to drop off kids a tad early. She texted me wanting to know what was going on tonight with kids - I told her I am taking kids to a New Year's Eve skate thing that started at a certain time, so wanted to have the kids a bit earlier.

She said she was leaving at 6, and a friend was going to bring them over, so I confirmed.

I then texted her, seeing what she was gonna be doing (thinking she had a NYE party at work) - made a comment about how I got huge blisters the last time went roller skating. I figured she had asked me 20 questions, so it was OK to ask back. Of course, right after I sent it, I was like ah, crap, dummy - she's with OM! (Yes, AinO, from now on, I won't ask regardless, just show I don't care)

Anyway, she texted back, "None of your business."

ME: "Sorry, wasn't being nosy, just chattin"

W: "No you weren't just chatting"

Me: "Yeah, I was just thinking, I hope you have 9 martinis - you should have some fun before going back to school next week."

W: "I am not drinking"

Me: "Well, at least get in some dancing! I honestly hope you have a blast!"

W: "Thank you"

Then about 3 minutes later, she sent me a cute video of S6 singing "I am the Eggman"...

A great example of her starting out all up in bristles, and then easing off because she sees genuineness from me. Best thing is that I know she'll be with OM - and I didn't ask, didn't even imply anything, and I said I hoped she had a blast - stuff that she probably likes to hear, but doesn't want to believe. Also, I'm very responsible, very kid-oriented - would pick being with my kids over anything else. W is not so much, so for me to wish her to get out and cut loose, and not ask about OM - big 180 for me. And the best thing is, I really mean it for her. Of course, I wish she would do it with her family, but you know, every one needs to get out.

Then, I texted her again thinking that I had $100 to burn off our HSA card - use it or lose it before the end of the year, and asked if she needed band-aids, vitamins, or anything. She said vitamins, etc.

I got to the store, bought the stuff, and then realized I had spent $96 at dentist, so had a whopping $4.00. I texted this to W to let her know, and she sent back "LOL".

Just nice, light conversation - her responding nicely. Sending me a cute video of the kids, responding with LOL, saying thank you.

I read someone else's post - and they said they thought that by being W's friend, they were showing them they were OK with the divorce, and W would move on with the divorce thinking they were all right with it. I feel the exact same way right now.

But here is the reality - I can do the opposite, act like I always have, and completely obliterate all chances of ever recovering relationship - OR - I can be nice, sneak up on her, get her to laugh, get her to see me in reality instead of what she's got in her head, start letting those good memories of us start surfacing in her head, and before you know it, tada!!! I let her know that I think divorce is wrong, and affairs are especially wrong, so she knows how I feel.

Ok, day 1 of extremely dim - business contact only.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/31/08 05:00 PM
Quote:
Jon - I know you mean well by sending this message, however, this is classic pursuing. Make sure this is the last apology email you send.


Yep, I know it was, but I wanted to make sure W knew that I had felt her reaching out to me, and I took a cheap shot, and I knew it.

She is very very sensitive - and when stuff like that happens, if it isn't dealt with, she'll stick in a corner of her brain, and bring it up over and over and over again. If I take complete fault for it, which I deserve in this case, she'll let it go.

I made clear not to mention anything about us, or how we used to be, or anything smooshy - just focused on me, and even left her completely out of it.

You are right though - I won't send anything like this again, and I normally never do, but I knew that W likes these types of apologies. It will make her feel validated, and it'll make her more likely to open up like she did again. I don't think you realize how HUGE it is that she called me and was so emotionally vulnerable like that. Probably why she reacted so out of whack...
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/31/08 05:06 PM
Originally Posted By: JonF
While W was pitching-a-fit angry at me last night, she told D8 that OM was the "nicest man she'd ever met" - probably directly in response to W telling me that I was mean.

Somehow, that is oddly comforting to me - in an affair, smoldering sex is hard to compete with. But a guy that's "nice" - now THAT'S something I can compete with.


Very interesting question for the board. Female WAS, is the sex more difficult to "defeat" than the "nice guy" who is meeting her emotional needs? I argue that meeting the emotional needs is far more important than sex.

Any thoughts?
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/31/08 05:13 PM
Originally Posted By: JonF
Yep, I know it was, but I wanted to make sure W knew that I had felt her reaching out to me, and I took a cheap shot, and I knew it.

She is very very sensitive - and when stuff like that happens, if it isn't dealt with, she'll stick in a corner of her brain, and bring it up over and over and over again. If I take complete fault for it, which I deserve in this case, she'll let it go.

I made clear not to mention anything about us, or how we used to be, or anything smooshy - just focused on me, and even left her completely out of it.

You are right though - I won't send anything like this again, and I normally never do, but I knew that W likes these types of apologies. It will make her feel validated, and it'll make her more likely to open up like she did again. I don't think you realize how HUGE it is that she called me and was so emotionally vulnerable like that. Probably why she reacted so out of whack...


I agree with what your saying and apologize when needed. My point is to work on yourself and not get into that sitch. Thus, "Make sure this is the last apology email you send".

No matter what she does, no matter what you FEEL, it's water off a duck's back.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/31/08 05:14 PM
Remember that W was furious at me at the time too... \:\) I agree that meeting emotional needs is much more important for women, and especially W. W REALLY needs a shoulder to cry on right now.

I'm not a female, but let me explain my thinking on it, and why I think it's easier to compete. If it is smoldering hot sex for a 31 year old woman hitting her sexual peak - how do you compete with that? I mean you could buy some bikini briefs, but she'll probably just laugh. Then, there's the problem of actually HAVING sex with W to compete!

You can gradually convince her that you are just as sweet and nice - especially as the polish starts to wear off, but how do you "gradually" convince her that sex with you would be better?

The "nicest guy" though:
1. Set up on pedestal VERY high
2. How long will this last? OF COURSE, you're going to be super nice in the first 6 weeks you date someone...
3. Um hello, being nice? How else is he going to get into her pants - that will shut MY W off like a faucet.
4. She is also putting all of HER nicest stuff forward for him, and her polish will wear off eventually.
Posted By: A in Ohio Re: My Story - 12/31/08 05:46 PM
Originally Posted By: JonF
Remember that W was furious at me at the time too... \:\) I agree that meeting emotional needs is much more important for women, and especially W. W REALLY needs a shoulder to cry on right now.

I'm not a female, but let me explain my thinking on it, and why I think it's easier to compete. If it is smoldering hot sex for a 31 year old woman hitting her sexual peak - how do you compete with that? I mean you could buy some bikini briefs, but she'll probably just laugh. Then, there's the problem of actually HAVING sex with W to compete!

You can gradually convince her that you are just as sweet and nice - especially as the polish starts to wear off, but how do you "gradually" convince her that sex with you would be better?

The "nicest guy" though:
1. Set up on pedestal VERY high
2. How long will this last? OF COURSE, you're going to be super nice in the first 6 weeks you date someone...
3. Um hello, being nice? How else is he going to get into her pants - that will shut MY W off like a faucet.
4. She is also putting all of HER nicest stuff forward for him, and her polish will wear off eventually.


I see your point and can understand you position...

I may be getting myself into trouble here and I'm hoping SMW, Breakawy, Veronica or anyone can back me up here......

In general, most women don't get "horny" like men do. For a women, it's emotional fulfillment. Smoldering hot sex is directly related to how a woman feels emotionally. Women entering their sexual prime is derived from the chemical in their bodies changing. Alright, before I get into trouble "labeling", let's leave it at "Women want to be emotionally fulfilled, thus making them horny".

Men, have a "fill tank" and it's a physical thing. Damn, I wish I could explain this better but here is my best stab.... Men, get "backed up" sort to speak. You produce seaman and when you hit the "full tank" you need to release it. Sounds primitive so we'll leave it at, "For men, it's a physical (or biological thing).

Read Men Are From Mars or something to get better understanding. I'm having a terrible time explaining.

You're right, he's trying to sleep with her. Most men will say/do anything to get some action. Especially now a days. Listen to single guys talk.. "working chicks", "game", "playin"... Doesn't sound like honesty, does it?
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/31/08 05:58 PM
Although I defer to your excellence in all matters thus far, I would tend to disagree.

Although 30s is the sexual peak - I believe a large majority of women are willing to have sex ONLY IF they are emotionally fulfilled.

My W, and everyone of her friends is that way - if she is mad, feels like I'm not listening, if I say something unkind, etc - no nookie that night!

What I think happens in an affair is that women are willing to have sex because they think that will make the OM willing to LISTEN to them and thus emotionally fulfill them - basically it's a pretty sick trade-off.

I'm probably the weirdest guy ever - I self-imposed celibacy even though W was willing. I told her it wouldn't happen until we were friends first because I didn't want a relationship based on nothing but sex. There were times where I seriously wished I hadn't made that commitment! \:\)

Also, I think guys would probably have sex with a post as long as it stood still long enough - most women I know require a pretty good chunk of trust to allow that.
Posted By: MT35 Re: My Story - 12/31/08 06:48 PM
Jon-

Just wanted to say thanks for stopping by my thread. Also, I have problems with conversation with my H because I don't want to ask what he is doing the other half of his life he is living with OW. We had always talked about everything we did during the day, now I feel silence a lot because other than his time here with me and at work, it doesn't feel right asking what H has done because he is at OW's house. I understand that sometimes the words comes out, What are you doing? and after you say it, you think Sh*t, they are doing stuff with the OP, they aren't going to want to tell me that.

As for the 30's women and sex, I am 35 right smack in the middle of the 30's. I don't really no for others, but I know I want some sort of feeling for a guy before I was to have sex with him. Yeah we all get that juices flowing feeling, when we someone we are attracted too, but for me I want at least, how I have felt for since I was 15 was I wanted to know someone as a friend before I jumped into bed with them. I was never one to try for a one night stand. Now when I drink I know I am much more relaxed, but still not ready for something with someone I really don't know. Now my H will tell me he is horny all the time, has always told me that. I am not sure how that works for him now, he still tells me that. Not sure if that is what he tells OW too! Who knows! But I am not sure what it says about me that I still want to have sex with my H, even after everything that has gone on.

That is just one 35 year old woman's view, I know many others will feel very differently!
Posted By: mishka422 Re: My Story - 12/31/08 06:58 PM
Ok, I'll bravely chime in on this one.

I'm 37 and I can tell you that in my case I was pretty distant with my XH prior to the bomb because I could feel the emotional distance. However, there is nothing that made me any randier than knowing that he didn't want me, was having an A, and that I no longer had the option of "getting any" again. Good grief! It was like a hormone overload for months that couldn't be satisfied. Now, don't get me wrong, I didn't run out and try to find someone to satisfy my cravings because that is not the kind of woman I am. I must have an emotional connection but losing that connection to the most important person in my life made me crave it so much more.

I don't know if that makes sense. Now that it has been over a year and the D is final my hormones have calmed down to next to nothing because there is no possibility of an emotional attachment. Again, no idea if that is making sense or helping you at all.

In short, women do need an emotional attachment in order to have smoldering hot sex in general. Now a quickie with little fullfilment can be done without any emotional attachment. Again, I'm not going there but I know plenty of women who have just for the momentary high.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/31/08 07:28 PM
Thanks, ladies, I guess I was pretty close - and I know there are exceptions to the rules.
Posted By: JDOllie Re: My Story - 12/31/08 08:44 PM
Ok, some journaling:

W came to pick up S6 today - one big stupid thing I did, and I've learned my lesson. S6 said that OM was coming over, and I knew OM and W were going to some music thing, but I was thinking OM was coming to the party tomorrow (that W left out of \:\) Anyway, I told S6, "No, he's coming tomorrow" So the first thing S6 says to W is "Daddy says OM isn't coming over" W's face went through about 15 contortions - ending very quickly on pressed together lips. I can't tell if she was mad I was talking about him, or felt odd because she has never mentioned him to my face, maybe guilty. She just told S6, "Well, he's coming over a little later." All I could do was mumble, "I thought it was tomorrow."

Ugh - note to self, COMPLETELY ignore anything kids say about OM. Just say Oh, or change the subject. D8 wanted to text W and ask what OM's last name was, and I said, "Just talk to Mommy tomorrow." Boom, done.

So, after that horrible exchange - W was acting extremely uncomfortable - I've never seen her so uncomfortable.

I had taken the opportunity, of course, to put on snappy jeans, a fitted shirt that shows off my 22 pounds lost, combed hair, shaved, trimmed goatee, good cologne on. I just went up and stood about a foot away and leaned against the wall, (wanted to make sure she caught a whiff of the cologne) and she didn't do anything.

I just started telling funny stuff, showed her kids new gummy vitamins, asked her how work was (She said, "You know, pretty boring.") Joked about New Year's, etc.

S6 got his shoes on, and was standing there, and I wrapped up, got him his coat, gave him a hug, and shooed them out the door. I said bye to both of them, and W didn't respond.

I'm glad I sort of pushed them out the door very gently - instead of W ending the conversation, and leaving.

My goal is small with these times: just put a little tiny twist of myself somewhere in the back of W's head. I know OM has 99.9999%, but I'll start with .0001%.
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