Divorcebusting.com
I have been posting on other forums for a couple of months now - I thought I'd post on the Divorce Busting forum... I did read this book but not the Divorce Rescue book. Along with many other books and a personal talk w/ Dr. Harley - my chances are so limited as my separation process is too far along.

Here's my story.

W wanted divorce Jan 24 - two months of legal expenses and anguish. Both agreed to go to mediator instead. The legal separation started June 12, assets have been divided, and STBXW bought her own house and moved out June 27 - about 5 miles away. She has her freedom and independence at last.

We have a 2.5yo daughter together and joint shared custody - I get 3 overnights each week, she 4 overnights, including alternate weekends

I've learned since this process started in January, my STBXW the reasons for her actions as she sees it.

1. I could never understand the kind of love she needed (I do now, though not sure if any one could ever satisfy her wants)
2. We were never even friends
3. I never understood her emotional, spiritual, and physical needs. (she never told be what they were - I had to figure it out for myself - Now I understand more after doing a lot of soul searching and spiritual reading)

Despite her current beliefs (she is steadfast in wanting a Divorce)- I think there is a miracle of hope that we can start from scratch and re-build some sort of relationship - maybe not the same as a marriage...

Now that everything is settled and I have given her everything in the process (lump sum to buy a house, child support, freedom, etc). We are now civil/friends for our daughters sake. W never gave a glimmer of hope that divorce isn't emminent 365 days from then.

Despite the fact that she separated from me because she wasn't feeling loved by me - now that she has made up her mind - she gets angry if I tell her I love her, I miss her, call her dear or honey... She doesn't want any pressure from me to get back together... Thus I have stopped being clingy, desperate, etc.

But How do I show her I love her more than anything if she refuses to let me express it... I have learned about her emotional needs - I what to satisfy her needs - but have limited time with her to be able to meet her emotional needs. Also she is so angry - anytime I try to express my love - the devil comes out of her to put up the ice wall to protect her emotions.

I have tried NC and LC and most of Michele's 180 techniques - but nothing seems to have any effect. The marriage fell apart as we drifted apart and focused on our daughter. I do not see how a limited communication between us or my being strong independent "I can take care of myself" could ever win her back if that is a major cause of our separation...

I think I have to show her my love subtly, keep up the communication, really listen to her when she talks, do what she wants and agree with her is the only chance I have left. That is what Dr. Harley "His Needs, Her Needs" told me specifically in a personal 30 minute telephone call and e-mail.

The biggest problem is our daughter's dropoff and pick-up is at daycare so we could actually go a month without seeing each other - I have to call her directly to talk and try to most days to have us each say goodnight to our daughter. - but often those calls are just 30 seconds with no other conversation.

My thought is maybe if we are friendly, it would give us something to build on over the next 12 months. Yes I know I need to build up myself, etc. Is it also possible that if we can cooperate and not argue over the next 12 months that our marriage can be repaired - or at least give it an attempt... I truly believe that the 12 month separation is specifically designed to provide breathing room, to be apart, see what its like, whether apart is better or worse - etc.

Of course, It could all be a lie - she could be in love with someone else... but of course she could learn this guy is a jerk...

Anyway, despite the odds, I do not want to give up hope that some miracle is possible... so my only course of action seems to be to continue to give her what she wants and be friendly and see if anything comes of it...

And yes I keep wavering between hope and reality...

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated

(I can read posts today - but then away from my computer until Aug 20- when I am back)

Thanks, SingleDad
I posted here for positive reinforcement - other sites are often just to negative - i.e. throw in the towel... No I want to hear positive action steps - not merely in myself but in positive interactions/steps to take with wife.

Also, 4 year anniversary in Aug 21. I mailed a Happy Anniversary card. said something life "The past or future is not what is important but what is inside of us". An merely signed Love, Jim.

I am thinking about sending a dozen roses, and then a personal letter... "I've learned that I do not need you... rather I want you" type letter... Good/only time to send such a letter...

Then go back to subtle actions and 180 route
I think you've got yourself a good plan there and yes it can be saved. All marriages can be saved, I believe a lot of it depends on the state of mind and how far gone the WAS is.

Thinking back, I've had threads and my W even contact a solicitor like about 4 years ago and being the DAM I was, I told myself it was just her over reacting to an arguement as the issue argued about was nothing (to me). However, and what I've read in 'We Can Work It Out', all those little things have been getting stored up then bam !!!!

GL to you
Singledad...

i live in the dunkirk/fredonia area. but i grew up in buffalo. i will read up on y our sitch soon. i appreciate you popping in on me the other day...
I have not sent the letter.

I did mail a simple card "Happy Anniversary" with something pre-printed card like " Its not the past, nor the future, but what's inside that is important" and I signed "Love, ___"

W must have gotten it yesterday - because she picked up my daughter this morning and W was short and with attitude. Not sure if because of the card, or because it was only a card.

I have ordered a bouquet of flowers... was advised against a dozen roses (would have too much meaning and push her further away), but went with something like 5 or 6 red roses with bunch of purple flowers, etc.

It might piss her off in the shot run, but in a few weeks or months, I think it come off as better than doing nothing or forgetting.

When W is giving off attitude, like this morning - I feel empty inside and hopeless.

I have less than 10 months to try to save a marriage that my W doesn't want - I pikced up some more self-help books to read to make myself irresistible (yeah right)to her.
SD stopped by to read your sitch. Some of it repeats for me the communication thing and how to do correctly. Can't mind read. Not plugging but I downloaded the Marriage Breakthrough and it opened my eyes about ME and what I need to do grow as a person. Not for W yet as it's not the time, I hope it will be sometime. Even if it goes all the way I would still share with her to make her new life more enjoyable, that's the unconditional love thing.

As for me I'm trying to take the high road still. GAL, PMA, moving to new place this week etc. I too found a negative group first but one of the organizers pointed me here 3.5 months ago and I've been here since. Just reading mostly but now I'm working on me etc.
Originally Posted By: SingleDad
I did mail a simple card "Happy Anniversary" with something pre-printed card like " Its not the past, nor the future, but what's inside that is important" and I signed "Love, ___"

W must have gotten it yesterday - because she picked up my daughter this morning and W was short and with attitude. Not sure if because of the card, or because it was only a card.


don't worry about what she thinks. that's her thing...if she's pissed, that's her problem. You did it from the heart. that's what matters.

Originally Posted By: SingleDad

I have ordered a bouquet of flowers... was advised against a dozen roses (would have too much meaning and push her further away), but went with something like 5 or 6 red roses with bunch of purple flowers, etc.

Unless this is something that you've never done before (ie..send flowers) don't do this. It's pursuing, which the W does NOT want. She knows how you feel. Trust me. Trust that she knows. Anything like this is considered pressure from the LBS and what they are trying to do is process a TON of emotions and they can't when they get things like that from us.

Originally Posted By: SingleDad


When W is giving off attitude, like this morning - I feel empty inside and hopeless.


You cannot let that happen. OWN your emotions. Don't let her dictate your hope for saving your M. Detach from your W. don't let her emotions and feelings effect yours. I know, easier said than done; however figure out how to do it. G(et) A L(ife). do things with yourself. Find what makes YOU happy, outside of your W and M. Work to keep a Positive Mental Attitude (PMA). People are attracted to other positive people. Smile when you are around her. I don't know how much contact you have with your W, but be happy and content on the outside, even if you feel like sh*t on the inside. They know how much they've hurt us. SHowing it only creates more guilt for them, and hence, more pressure.


Originally Posted By: SingleDad

I have less than 10 months to try to save a marriage that my W doesn't want - I pikced up some more self-help books to read to make myself irresistible (yeah right)to her.


Please do not think like that. Find the positive interactions with your W. Become the man that your W fell in love with. Do not think in terms of months....it's going to take awhile, but it is possible. REad stories on this board. Try different things and gauge how they work. You'll be able to tell if they do or not. Just be consistent.

What has she said that you need to work on? Do you know? Have you gone to see a counselor? Have you considered getting some of the DB coaching sessions?

You've already made the first big positive step. YOu are here. You know what you want. Your W does not. No matter what she says, she does not. THis statement rings true for everything: Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. They will speak in absolute negatives because they are scared and hurting too. Know that your W is experiencing the same type of emotions you are.

STay strong. Babysteps are first......
I guess what i'm saying is that have patience. Be Consistent. Don't expect to fix it over nite. It's going to be a long process, but it'll be worth it. And in a lot of ways, the long time it takes to fix, is actually healthier for the entire thing. I'm in your boat. I want to try and fix this overnite when in reality, it can't be. It took long time for thing to go badly. IT's going to take a long time to fix them. A lot of hard, painful work. But you will be stronger coming out of this.
Hi SingleDad

First off I'm sorry that you are in the situation where you need to be here but I have found this place a really good source for support.

My first question here is

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1. I could never understand the kind of love she needed (I do now, though not sure if any one could ever satisfy her wants)


Could you elaborate more on this. What are her wants? It may help you in the process of Real Giving which is something I have found quite useful in my sitch. It also might help identify behaviours that you can do more of, Michelle says to do what works rather than what doesn't. Have you found anything that has been successful in bringing out a positive reaction in your wife?

It is difficult when you don't have much interaction with your spouse - I'd rather be honest here. But it just means that in the few interactions you do have you have to show the best of yourself and be in a good mindset. To achieve this the only thing I have found is to detach - realise that you can't control how your w is feeling but you can change your interactions with them if you don't follow past negative behaviours.

Obviously you ultimately want to save your marriage. But also you share a daughter together so you will always have to have some kind of relationship so even if you don't end up together it would be really good to do this so you know in yourself that you have done your utmost and you have the best relationship you can have for your daughter.

It is great that you have stopped being clingy etc and that you have identified what was pushing her away. It sounds like you have great self-awareness.

You said the things you have tried haven't worked so far. Maybe try describing your 180s or LRT or if you don't want to go back on the past come here for help if you are stuck on an interaction with your w (I do that all the time, and I wouldn't be where I am without everyone's advice from here).

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Anyway, despite the odds, I do not want to give up hope that some miracle is possible... so my only course of action seems to be to continue to give her what she wants and be friendly and see if anything comes of it...

If this is what is working then ok carry on, but it doesn't seem to me that it is. Maybe it isn't showing your strength and new GAL activities. Michelle talks about not always being available etc. Make her wonder about you, spark her interest.

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I do not see how a limited communication between us or my being strong independent "I can take care of myself" could ever win her back if that is a major cause of our separation...

Although I take this point. Was that her complaint? I'd really like to know more about this.

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Of course, It could all be a lie - she could be in love with someone else... but of course she could learn this guy is a jerk...

If you can, I'd really try not to think about this. It doesn't help PMA and is supposition and speculation at the moment. Concentrate on things you know.

You are in a good position now really, she has the said independence and so do you. Remember to look after yourself, make yourself the greener grass for her but more importantly for you. It will make you stronger and help you through this difficult time.

What about you? What do you like to do? Do you have any hobbies?
SD,

You have been getting some excellent advice from Neil and Julia!

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But How do I show her I love her more than anything if she refuses to let me express it... I have learned about her emotional needs - I what to satisfy her needs - but have limited time with her to be able to meet her emotional needs. Also she is so angry - anytime I try to express my love - the devil comes out of her to put up the ice wall to protect her emotions.



This is the key paragraph in your post in my opinion. First off, I have read His Needs/Her Needs. I actually read it when my W and I started to have problems. I told my W I wanted to meet her needs.....she told me "she didn't want me to" The book is excellent, but it is not the time to use it aside from trying to understand things a little bit with the realizationt that this understanding is something you are going to have to keep to your self. I read the book and told my W "I had it all figured out"....she said "you can't fix this"....I said "No but we can".....she said "But I have to want to"....any of this sound familiar.

I think Dr. Harley's advice on the subtleness is essential in anything you do.....anything else will come off as needy, pursuiting and will be viewed as pressuring.

If you want to meet your W's emotional needs then meet the one that she wants you to meet......detach. Have the strength to be yourself and to let her be herself. This is what real giving is about....she has told you what she wants (space)....give it to her even if you don't want to. Have the courage to let her go....but be her friend if she needs one (Check out the Man-Up thread in MLC by SG....it is probably several pages back now). I doubt seriously if your newly sep W was upset that she only got a card for your Anniversary...I hope you didn't follow it up with flowers. This is a day she is trying to forget....don't pressure her.

The biggest thing you can do is GAL, especially with your D....she needs you.

It is good that you can be civil....be upbeat around your W.

My W and several others told us they didn't want to work on the M, that it was over, etc, etc. All hope is not last by any means.

The reasons you listed seem pretty "light" to be seeking a D while having a 2-1/2 yr old D.......is there anything else.....any suspicions?

Just an observation, but having been through a sep with children the age of yours, it almost sounds like your D is kind of like a ping-pong ball. I agree with the 50% custody (especially since you sound like a good Dad) but it is important to have some stability in her life. My W and I did alternating weeks with a visit in between or planned activity for our children that we would share in. Just a thought (I wouldn't bring it up if the dust has steeled on the sep agreement....no point bringing up tension again). If D happens then you might consider a different arrangement.

I would work mainly on GAL (yourself when you don't have D, and with D when you do!). I would also work on being her friend....listen to her and care when SHE gives the opportunity. Let her lead the R....chances are if you stop chasing she will stop running
[quote=JCJ]
Quote:
1. I could never understand the kind of love she needed (I do now, though not sure if any one could ever satisfy her wants)


Could you elaborate more on this. What are her wants? It may help you in the process of Real Giving which is something I have found quite useful in my sitch. It also might help identify behaviours that you can do more of, Michelle says to do what works rather than what doesn't. Have you found anything that has been successful in bringing out a positive reaction in your wife?




My W just wants to be understood, appreciated for who she is, what she wants... someone to be there for her... someone to really listen to her and understand what she wants. To be held, to have her know she is the most special person in the world to me...

All of those things are great and I wish I had them from her as well. i.e. recriprocal treatment... W is very emotional. She wants to be held and comforted. The problem is she wants things that she is not good at giving either. She can be very controlling and demanding.

W wants things we all want... but doesn't seem to realize that two people to be warm and loving and comforting to each other. She just expects that she can yell at me and tell me what to do and control me and then I should then come over and hold her.

That is she wants that loving feeling, regardless of what she says or does to me - to be loved for who she is. W doesn't seem to realize you can treat someone like crap and control them, and them still wanting to give her affection.

W doesn't see that she had a role in the demise of our marriage.

W only sees that she wasn't getting the kind of love and affection she wants...

I can't tell her that it takes two people without her getting angry.

Somehow - we just need to start over where both people are happy to be with each other and both can show each other the love that they want.

I just don't know how we can re-connect when we only talk on the phone for 30 seconds a day and have no access to see each other in person... She doesn't want to come to my house and I am not allowed at her house.

I'll have to come back to answer more questions... but I did have the bouquet of flowers delivered to her house today for our 4th Anniversary (I always bought flowers for this occassion - but usually it was a potted orchid).

I have to go now to pick up my daughter - but now that I am back from my few days in NYC - I can check up on my post.
My wife and I went through the his needs her needs class six years ago, it was the best thing we ever did. The two to three years after that were the best in our whole marriage. If you can ever get your wife to attend with you, it may work wonders. I am trying to get my wife back to this class, only time will tell. Good luck to you.
I truly want to meet my W's needs in a way that can reconcile our marriage. We have been speaking different love languages for so long - I do not know how to do it, especially now that she doesn't want my love. I have done so many things the wrong way.

I stated earlier that my W seems selfish and spoiled - and yes now she is fighting for herself. I do not know if that is due to her expectations or what not... But I do know that I was not meeting her needs. I think it was a downward spiral by both of us. The stresses of life overcame us. Both us us want to be loved, but neither of us are overly affectionate people... Yes I can be affectionate if someone is affectionate to me... but in the routine of life, being told what to do, etc. that affectionate feeling diminishes - and over time spirals out of control.

At this point I do not know what to do. My W is done with me and does not want any pressure from me to get back together, does not want me to work on our relationship, etc. So if now I do what she wants - let our relationship die - we are through. If I do the opposite - If I tell her I love her, that I've made mistakes, I want her, etc. it pushes her away.

I wish we could just start from scratch without any history, without any bad feelings... W just won't let me in.

"Meeting her needs, making her happy, and feeling understood." - That is all I want to do... yet the bridge is burnt and there is so little communication. She is so angry and withdrawn - she won't let me near.

Today is our 4th anniversary. I do not do this generally - but since it is our anniversary I felt it was important to break all of the rules and tell her "I wanted to wish you a Happy Anniversary. I love you. I have always loved you. But I loved you in my own way... which is not the way you wanted. I understand now. I just wish I was given the opportunity now to show you my love the way that you want it... I wish we could spend maybe a couple of hours a week together"

- I know this is contrary to what she is telling me - and most will tell me that yet again I am not listening to her. I agree - It is our anniversary - and I had to just tell her I love her.

Now I will go back to just listening to her and doing what she wants (not to the point of being a doormat) and trying to understand her - As Dr. Harley recommended to me.

It would be so much easier if my W was simply conflicted and needed to know I was listening and understanding her and satisfying her needs - then I could learn to follow steps. But now that she is withdrawn and angry and doesn't want my love (or claims she doesn't) it is so diffficult.

Deep inside though, I have to believe that she wants our family together - If I could just be the person she wants - A warm, affectionate, understanding person who really listens to her and satisfies her needs.

That is why I am trying so hard - or wanting to try so hard. She did love me for many years and I believe she can again if I could just listen to her and understand her. But I have to get through her hardened heart first.

Suggestions welcomed...
Singledad,

Don't know if everyone else advised this yet, but you have got to quit with the pursuing her. No more flowers. No more lame excuses to talk to her. If you want any chance of getting her back it's going to have to be because you are such a catch...not because you chased and chased (actually "chased" is the correct term...you'll chase her away if you keep sending notes and flowers).

Counter-intuitively, just because you didn't show love to her in the way she wanted, doesn't mean that now you show her and tell her. She doesn't want to hear it. Everytime you consider doing those things, think to yourself "she won't see it as loving...she see me as pathetic" and you'll avoid some of those pitfalls.

So, what can you do? You can focus on being the best you that your capable of being. You can be friendly, if you talk, but keep it short. Listen if she wants to talk, but don't initiate conversation yourself unless it's something short and sweet, like "how are you doing?" In the meantime, focus on trying to get your own life in order as though it won't work out. I'm not saying it won't, but you do need to have a complete life of your own, even if your wife comes back. She'll choose to come back to a man that has his act together, is strong, confident, and respects the fact that she feels it's over (for now). Quit with the clingy stuff.


Yup - well I'm being pathetic... I've lost my marriage - my Wife is happy being single... And I get to see my daughter less than half of the time.

Anyone want to throw me a pity party ? - probably not... most here have been through it as well.
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Anyone want to throw me a pity party ?


I do. I know this is terrible. I just want you to have at least some chance of restoring your marriage...and you can't do it by chasing her. Who says she's happy being single?
Hi SingleDad

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My W just wants to be understood, appreciated for who she is, what she wants... someone to be there for her... someone to really listen to her and understand what she wants. To be held, to have her know she is the most special person in the world to me...

Excellent, you have got some good information there.

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All of those things are great and I wish I had them from her as well. i.e. recriprocal treatment... W is very emotional. She wants to be held and comforted. The problem is she wants things that she is not good at giving either. She can be very controlling and demanding.

W wants things we all want... but doesn't seem to realize that two people to be warm and loving and comforting to each other. She just expects that she can yell at me and tell me what to do and control me and then I should then come over and hold her.

That is she wants that loving feeling, regardless of what she says or does to me - to be loved for who she is. W doesn't seem to realize you can treat someone like crap and control them, and them still wanting to give her affection.

The general theme I get from this is that you don't want to give if you get nothing in return. I completely understand this but if you don't give, how can you expect anything in return? What I mean is that sometimes you just have to do things without expectations because you love someone. Once you truly give then I guarantee that you will receive a different reaction from the one you expect.

You know that your wife wants to be held and comforted. From my woman perspective I would say she is yelling at you etc to try and get you to hold her. This may seem controlling but once you go over to her and hug her I can 99% guarantee that everything will be ok. She will feel safe and reassured of your love - now wouldn't that be worth doing instead of feeling 'right'. Once she felt that you would then get your needs met by her, instead you both seem to be at a stand-off and she has felt so unloved that she has given up and walked away.

Please don't think that I am blaming you in any way. The above behaviour from your wife probably seems completely irrational and in all honesty it is but that is how things were, there is no reason, it just is. Once you give her the comfort she needs she will stop treating you, as you say like crap, and you will create a new positive cycle instead of the negative one. It just needs someone to act differently and you, armed with your new DBing knowledge, are in a good position to be that person.

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W doesn't see that she had a role in the demise of our marriage.

W only sees that she wasn't getting the kind of love and affection she wants...

Your wife is blinded by her feelings at the moment; she will also be feeling a lot of guilt, even if she is not expressing it. That is probably why she is having such a hard time facing you and why you are not having much contact. That is why the flowers and romantic gestures aren't helping, they are exacerbating her guilt. You really need to understand that even though I know it goes completely against the grain. If you read all the situations on this board, it was once people stopped pursuing that change started happening.

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Somehow - we just need to start over where both people are happy to be with each other and both can show each other the love that they want.

I just don't know how we can re-connect when we only talk on the phone for 30 seconds a day and have no access to see each other in person... She doesn't want to come to my house and I am not allowed at her house.

Right, you know the end point, now you need to start setting some goals to reach it. What is a typical 30 second conversation? Personally I would let things settle for a little while and have minimal contact (after the emotion of the anniversary) and then start looking at how you can present yourself in the most positive way.

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Meeting her needs, making her happy, and feeling understood."

This is a really good place to start with your goals. Can you break that down a little? Maybe list 3 of her needs, or write down how she would act if she was happy/ understood and more importantly how YOU would act if she was happy/ understood. Have you read how to 'act as if'? It is a really great tool.

For a while you need to accept that you are not going to get anything back. If you really want to get back with your wife that is just the way it has to be. You are going to have to give so much of yourself for very little in return, however your rewards will come to you in other forms which hopefully you will discover along the process.

I can't remember if you have read Divorce Remedy, it is a really good place to start.

I hope this is of some help, as we work on different time zones I may not always see your thread so feel free to give me a nudge over on mine.

(((SingleDad))) you are doing really well, keep going!
JCJ - yeah - I have to back off of it completely... the anniversary love talk etc just pushed her further away.

I need to cool it and just figure out how to "Get a Life" and move on for now...

I'll have keep interaction with W to a minimum - just keep it cordial and friendly.

I read Divorce Busters but not Divorce Remedy yet. I am almost wondering if my readings are making my think too much and want too much - which is just hurting myself. I have to back off giving and wanting too - that wasn't working... just work on myself I guess.

I do not know "Act as if" but I think I can guess.
i answered something on you said on my thread..check it out. its pretty relevant
Thanks Neil.

I know for sure now that I have been going about it the wrong way. somehow I had come to believe that my situation was different. Since she claims she is leaving me because I did not show her enough of my love - I thought If I did show her my love and tell her - that her love for me would come back - obviously though it just pushed her further away. I was doing it that way for several months.

Now that our 4th anniversary has passed as and I expressed my love - now I will back off and not do anymore of that needy stuff. Wasted 2.5 months of the separation trying to convince her to come back (plus several months before the separation started)... Now 9.5 mos left to work on myself and re-learn how to Get A Life - that's the hardest part because I want my family back - not my single life - but that's not how to approach it.

Had read DB months ago. Last night went to the bookstore and read DR mostly - DR is a great book - and took 6 pages of notes... Like it was written for me... I now have to be dedicated to the Last Resort Technique - its the only option I have left.

It's just so sad... I feel terrible for my Daughter and what my life has become in a failed marriage. Every thing I work for, now it seems I have so little left... feel like I am just scraping by... and going home to an empty house usually. I have to change my thought process somehow to think positively and find things I enjoy... GAL
Hi SD~
Just thought since you were nice enough to stop by and post in my thread, I'd do the same. I see a lot of similarities in our situations.
This is me, to a "T":

Originally Posted By: SingleDad
I wish we could just start from scratch without any history, without any bad feelings...


I know that reality doesn't work that way, but you express a lot of the same wants and needs that I have. So hard.

I don't have any words of wisdom for you...wish I did. I'd be the first to follow them.
Anyway...just wanted you to know that I appreciated you stopping by, and that I really do feel your pain. At least we know we're not alone. I think that's what made me feel hopeful for the first time since the bomb here. Just knowing that this was almost scripted and there were others that made it through.

Take care.
(((((SingleDad)))))
Thanks for your support Lacey.

I am trying to Get a Life, but it is a challenge. I think so much about missing my daughter. My W has D2 all week as her brother's family is in town. I will not see D2 until Labor Day. 2 days down 5 to go - this is so hard. I do not want this broken up family - but now I'm learned that I can't discuss it with W during separation.

I call each night to say goodnight to D2 on W's cell (only way). W says Hi, no more than 5 seconds and passes the phone to D2 - talk with D2 for generally a minute and that's it until the next night. Easier when I have D2 3 overnights per week - this week long vacation with no seeing D is so hard.

Bookstore Mon night, Run Tues night - then read books and watch Democratic convention - nice distraction.

Neighbor is going through divorce as well with 3 young kids, her H has GF and her H is hiding money destroyed credit etc - we commisurate occassionally - her divorce is miserable compared to mine. She has mentioned dating several times - but I do not want to get tangled in that web.

Hard to simply Get a Life, when I keep thinking about the past and wanting family back. I keep hoping my W sees that I am a much better loving father - I am happy about one thing this situation has opened my eyes to what was going wrong and I am a much better father... and could be a much better husband if she just let me - I am hoping for simply a chance to be friends, and then who knows... She is not letting even that happen yet.

So many threads on this site - I want to read more of them - but so hard to stay current on people's situations... Does seem that there are a number of reconciliations... Seems the DR does help.
Testing...Trying to add current thread to my signature - I think I did it, but how I change the title to "Current Thread" from the http address ?
I call daily to say goodnight to D when W has her. W limits talk to 5 seconds, then talk to D for 1 minute or 2. Very limited as D is 2.5. Last night got voicemail and asked to call me if you can. W did call. At the end of call I said "thank you" W said "you are welcome" - at least it was friendly.

It wasn't too long ago that W would call me everyday even if it was over legal issues or yell at me - like she was dependent on talking with me. Now seems like she dropped that need - now that she is completely free of me.

So hard to do this - won't see D until Labor Day - praying for the day when the three of us can spend time together as a parents to our D even if only an hour. I have told myself that this process could take years to have a chance (for her anger to go away, start a friendship and try to build)... but each day alone is so hard.

Keep questioning how did I lose my family so quickly...
Another day... Yesterday - went to pre-garage sale and picked up more clothes for D. Doing a lot of that this summer to save money over next few years. D wears 3T, I have lots of 4t and 5 (including tons of name brands like Gymboree, Carter, Gap), now focusing on 6 and up... washing everything and putting in bins for each size all the way up to 10-12. Is that crazy ? Just thinking if I can buy clothes for 50 cents or $1 each, instead of $15-$20 each I will save a ton of money... Spent about $500 this summer - at 10 cents to a dollar - maybe $5,000 or more worth of clothes and toys this summer if retail.

Didn't get home until 8 pm - and missed my daily call to D. Mom brought over Pizza and wings and we watched Obama.

Cried in shower this morning over not seeing D.

Lots to do this weekend - mow, change car oil, tar driveway, groceries, church, mom's to do laundry (W took washer and dryer), pay bills, organize D's clothes and paperwork. Should be good distraction.
Singledad, just read up on your sitch and I have a few thoughts. Please dont be offended by anything I say, these are just my thoughts and lord knows I have been wrong about a lot of things in my life. I just hate to see you so miserable, so this is meant to be a pep talk and maybe some ideas about how you can find YOUR happiness.

One of the things I realized I had been guilty of is relying on my wifes happiness to replace my own, does this ring true to your sitch? When she disconnected from me and asked for a sep, I was devastated because i was disconnected from her love tank. It took me awhile, but I discovered that my OWN happiness tank was running low. Then i started to do things that make ME happy. I was fishing more, spending more time at the firehouse, playing poker with friends. Not only was it a distraction, but it made deposits into my own happiness tank. It is still far from full and I have rough days, but now I look forward to these fun activities. How full is your happiness tank? Have you made any desposits lately?

I have found that my wife has been asking me about these changes, she's even given me crap about some of them, but I don't care, they make me happy. And the fact that she is asking about them and expressing concern (albiet anger) I take as a sign that maybe she still cares a little. Now you have to be careful not to take these little signs too far and start obsessing again (i recently fell into this trap) but they help keep you on an even keel.

dont worry about how you will let W know that you are doing these things. It will come up eventually.

Your to do list this weekends sounds like you are trying to keep yourself busy and distracted. This is god but, buddy, you've got to go have some fun! Go out to dinner or a bar with some buddies, you might accidentally have some fun!!

It sounds to me that you are obsessing over the sitch 24x7 and have brain-lock. I am guilty of this, as are most others on this board, BUT there are ways to deal with it and break the obession, or at least break it into managable chuncks.

the reality here singledad is that you need to face the possibility that things may not go the way that you planned them. if they do, how are you going to get on with your life if you are still mired in the misery? My therapist once asked me 'whats the worst case scenario?' I thought about this, played it out in my head.....and accepted it. I would suggest that you work on truly accepting BOTH possibilites of the direction your life may take, in your heard and mind. this will be the start of moving on. I posted a long analogy on Coach's thread about how the threads of love will keep you connected, even if you drift away. But you have to stop concentrating on that thread or you will miss all of the other beautiful things around you. Like your D. Be a better man for her. make positive changes in YOU and find a way to be happy for YOU and for her. Let her be your motivation to get yourself on track, not the thought that someday, somehow you will get your wife back.

You also keep saying you have x amount of time left to save your marriage. Brother, I say you have even less time to save yourself. You need to save yourself before you can save your M.

I have heard others say that DB and some of its principles like GAL may not have saved their marriage, but it did save their lives.

Remember that.

Strength and honor
Jesse - I hear everything that you are saying... I am doing as best I can to Get a Life and learn how to have fun on my own.

I guess my issue is me... I guess I don't know how to really have fun on my own. I know how to do things I enjoy - but fun is not really something I have ever learned how to do on my own. Things that most people consider fun - I would be not enjoy doing on my own - always self conscious about being alone. The years before I was with my W - I usually felt like a third wheel.

I am comfortable with myself when I do individual activities like run, shopping, swim, yardwork or housework, reading - so I have spending my time doing those "distracting" things. But things like out to dinner, movies, entertainment, bars - things that many people do with others - I always feel much worse doing alone. Just as when I was together with my W, all of my friends are married with kids, and have their own lifes - then again I feel like a third wheel. I do however, feel much more comfortable doing fun things with my daughter.

So how do I learn to get past my insecurities ?
Dad, Good for you that you are trying!! You are doing the right thing for you and what many believe will be the right thing for your R with your W (including me)
Some of things you are doing like running, swimming etc. are GREAT ways to have fun, excercise can be fun! and you feel great afterward, so keep doing those things, especially if they work for you.

You talk about feeling like a 3rd wheel, do you think this might be one of the things that bothered your W? If so, then it's a great opp to do a 180. 180's are hard, but sometimes pay off very big.

As far as doing things with others and addressing your feelings of lonliness, I can make a couple of suggestions, but these are just suggestions.
1. you might want to try individual counseling, sometimes its nice to just have someone to talk to.
2. I understand you don't like doing some things alone, so maybe go out and try to make some friends. If this is not easy for you, which is very normal, try joining a club of some kind, or maybe even taking a class, you might meet some folks there with similar interests, just like you have made friends on this board.

Here's another idea, I enjoy reading very much as well. So instead of reading in your big lonely house, try going to the library to read, or even better, a coffee shop or bookstore like borders that has a coffee shop there. Sometimes just being around people can help you feel less lonely. I get how in a bar or at dinner, most people are not alone and that can make someone who IS alone feel LONLIER (I wouldnt want to do this either!). But a place like a bookstore or library are full of poeple there by themselves, you'll fit right in!

If you like doing yard work, try volunteering for a local church or school or something. it will get you out of the house, meet new people and do something that you enjoy without any pressure, you can do as little or as much as you'd like. plus it might help you feel good to help others.

Try some different things and see how they work for you. if it helps, keep doing it, if it doesn't, try something else. This advice, btw, goes for both how to get yourself through this, as well as what you should be doing about your M. It sounds like what you are doing now is not helping, so you might want to think about trying something else. It sounds like you are thinking about it if you are here asking for help.

Strength and honor brother

((((HIGH FIVE!))))
jesse - all good thoughts

I was not a 3rd wheel with W - that was when I was single with married friends... now that I'm separated, I'll feel like a 3rd wheel again.

Good thoughts -

I have been paying for a gym membership for 7 years - but could never go when I was with W - I have been planning to go again - I just need to get a lock... also hadn't gone as I have a bike path behind my house and weights in my house.

I did go to bookstore to read on Monday - it's getting to expensive to keep buying self-help books - so I'll go to booksote and library more to read... way never much of a reader until now.

I've thought about taking cooking lessons - more basic recipies but just to get ideas on things to make - I have to look into that more.
Do you feel better when you are thinking about these other things that you can do? Does it help to start to break up the 24x7 obsession that you are stuck in?

If so, then GREAT, and keep doing it because it's working.
Also, you have the next couple of days free right, other than some stuff around the house? I would go to the gym tomorrow, even if its just for 30 minutes. Get out there, doing it the first time is the hardest when trying something new.

Also, i hope you are reading something else besides self-help, doing that will only keep you focused on the sitch and I think you need a break from that right now. flip through a fitness magazine or something (mens health is my favorite). This will really help to break up the obsession. I hate the obsession, I cant work, dont eat, give myself a headache and just wind up depressed. Finding a way to let it go will save your life.
Jesse - Haven't actually done much else yet besides reading, housework and exercise. The Gym would be more of a weeknight.

I did ask today about cooking classes at my local supergrocery store. They do have structured group classes they put out fliers at the store - like grilling, soups, etc. But they also have personal one on one training with the chef - You just schedule and appointment and decide whatever recipes you want and for $35 you get 3 hours of the chef's instruction including the food that was prepared to take home (seems like the food itself your cost that much... the chef is paid by the store - they provide the instuction as a goodwill customer service they offer... I think I'll have to take them up on it - I jsut have to think of what I'd like instruction on cooking...
I thought I post some history of our relationship issues leading up to the divorce / separation.

W's views
1. Our sex life diminished to nothing after our Daughter
2. I didn't give her the love she needed.
3. I didn't listen to her, thus didn't respect her.

My views:
1. sex life true - W was depressed and exhausted and I was was stressed out and frustrated
2. Loss of love - true, I was feeling that way for awhile - W was 'never' satisfied with my time and quality of time and the way I did things with my daughter first, then have quality time with my W. I was feeling controlled and unappreciated and had enough of feeling like I was her servant - W never showing appreication
3. I heard her - but I wasn't understanding and empathizing - thus not "listening" - I was busy trying to make suggestions to fix her issues rather than listening... It got to be that listening to me meant that she was dictating one way to me to tell me what I had to do for her and I had to just sit back and take it.

We grew apart over the last year.

Now that I see things for what they were and what they will be, I realized that I made plenty of mistakes myself. I wasn't being a good of a husband as I could be and frankly I do not think she was being as good of a wife as she could be. I was on auto-pilot and was at a loss to know what I could do to fix things, didn't know what I could do to make her happy... She was never happy with the things I did.

Any chore that needed to be done I did, my money went for anything big furniture, remodeling and utilities and RE taxes in the house (hers was mostly her own play money). I was the pure old fashoned provider...

But I was not satisfying her emotional needs - she told me I wasn't many times - but never told me what that meant or action steps on how I could do better for her... I am an action and goal oriented person... she is an emotional spiritual person... She couldn't tell me what I needed to do... she left it for me to figure out...

Got to the point where I couldn't figure it out. Secondly, I was getting so frustrated at her Hitler control over our daughter - "Boot camp" with constant "do you want a time out" and ridgid schedule... where I guess I am less controlling of my daughter (until I reach my limit).


Seemed like there were so many issues at the time... Now I realize all of the things I was overlooking... That her methods have their advantages... and I'd be happier trying to adapt to her parenting methods and would be able to make her happy - would be much better off together than the break-up of the family.

I think my W would need to change as well - allow me to have more say in raising our daughter. Be less ridgid. Be loving and affectionate toward me as well.

If we could both loosen up a bit and realize neither of us will do things exactly the way the other wants - but the end result is the same, we would have a chance.

Problem is that W has given up - she's had it - its over. She believes that she did everything she could. She believes she is right in every way and did nothing wrong - and it is my fault for not meeting her emotional, physical and spiritual needs - and that I am incapable of changing. I am not the right man for her...

We dated for 3.5 years before we got married - and another year before we tried to have a child. Our relationship didn't change much from how we were at the beginning... Maybe just got more complex and challenging. If I wasn't the right man for her couldn't she have figured that our before we got married then before we had a child ?

I think a very big part of it is that she expected life to be wonderful after we had a child - we'd be the picture perfect parents and our child would be easy. We'll life isn't that easy. I think she was overwhelmed with our daughter - and as much as I did to help, it wasn't enough or the right way... She felt that now she couldn't handle our daughter and me and the dogs and her job at the same time... i think she is happy that 3 days a week, she can unload the responsibility of our daughter to me so she can unwind.

i do not know if is was depression, post-partum or whatever... we both worked, she would beat me home by 45 minutes (shorted hours and shorter drive) to make dinner, then I'd come home, eat dinner and play with daughter, do the dishes and read to daughter. W would be falling asleep at 7 pm before D was even in bed.

We had an argument one night. W wanted me to move my weight set in the basement so she could make a third playroom of for daughter (one on each floor. I didn't want to move it... later I measured it - and found no other place it could be moved to. W kept nagging. In a huff, I started to take the weight set apart. W argued with me to stop... I yelled out "what is the purpose of my life !!!" Meaning I am not allowed to do anything myself and have to follow orders at work and at home and never can do anything I want. It was about 11 pm - I struggled to have my W let go of me and stormed out of the house and left in the car. After about an hour driving around - I realized I needed to sleep somewhere - I went to my mom's house, never telling my W where I was until about noon the next day.

When I did call, my W thought that what I had said instead was a threatened suicide and said she was upset all night and way trying to contact me... (though there were no calls on my cell phone, she did not call my mother or contact the police.) btw - She used this as one of the causes for divorce action. She also wanted me to go for counceling - I did go to the person she found for me - and also used that I need psychiatric help as a cause for divorce. I admittedly was distraught and depressed over our marriage - but wouldn't kill myself over it. (as a background my father did commit suicide from his depression and alcoholism) My W did attempt suicide when she was 15... and I think the fear over having do deal with anything like that again that was too much for her.

That's my story.
So why do we all have to learn this crap on our own???

I guess it is how we mature as people.....
I had a fun time with my D2.5 at the Labor Day Fair on Monday after not seeing her for a week. Now I do not see her again until Friday night - this sucks !!!

I was upstairs when W dropped off my D. on Monday. W didn't leave immediately as she usually does. I offered her a beverage. She declined, but sat down and was petting her dogs. Then wanted to pluck the hair our of the dog's ears to prevent ear infection - I said sure. I was dancing with my D2.5. I offered if W wanted some of D's clothes and she took them. W kept mentioning the new stuff I had picked up - "oh, did you get that at a garage sale." After a few times I said "don't worry about where I got it". Her response was "Oh from your girlfriend... It's ok if you are dating". I did not respond after a couple times questioning. (p.s. I have not gone on a single date).

It is nice that my W did hang around for a good 30 minutes - rather than avoid me completely... and I remained friendly the whole time and played with my D.

Is W asking about whether I am dating a positive thing ?

W called later about some community swim lessons for D - said maybe we could do it (together or alternating depending on our scheduled day) - I'm not sure which she meant. Said we could talk about it later.

I am getting tired of this being a part-time parent 3 days a week, it's not what I wanted when I started a family - I would much rather want to be full-time parent. I think my W actually prefers it, because it gives her 3 days off every week - I was hoping that she would feel the same way as me and would give her reason to want to work things out - I guess not.

I have thought about trying dating through match.com... some nice prospects locally... just not sure I'm ready... as I do want my W and family back... yet W has never made any jestures of getting together, except maybe through parenting. It is lonely and too quiet when I do not have D.
Hey singledad, sounds like you had a good time weekend.

As far as your wife bringing up dating, did you respond? did you tell her you are not dating? If not, I would. Now dont tell her its because you love and miss her, that would be chasing, but be honest with her. Also, dont worry about whether it is a positive thing or not, just take it for what it is.

What did you do for YOU this weekend?

Also, as far as being a part time parent 3 days a week, you REALLY need to look at the positive side here, at least you get to see her that often. Many divorced/seperated fathers only get the every other weekend thing. Be thankful for what you are getting.
Yeah - I know, as far as divorces go, my terms are quite good.

I did not tell her I was not dating - just no response. W in the past has not told me whether she is dating or not. I was kind of just thinking those are discussions which should be avoided. I almost think it would be better for her to wonder about it, rather than thinking I am just sitting around home or waiting for her to return.

I really didn't do much for me me me this weekend. Sat blacktopped the driveway, did laundry, washed the trunkload of chothes I bought for D at garage sales. Sun I went to church, organized D's closet, organized the paperwork in my office which had built up since Feb. when this whole thing started (something I have been wanting to do as the mess was driving me crazy.)

I did bump into my friend at the fair and hung-out and watched the parade together and had lunch and ice cream - that was a nice plus to the day.

Not sure what I am doing this week - likely watching the GOP convention.
Sounds to me like you did do some stuff for you. Keep it up, keep busy, and when you are ready, try venturing into something new. Keep doing what feels good, what gives you a feeling of accomplishment, even if it doesnt seem to others like fun.

Try making some goals for yourself this week. Maybe, try going to that gym you have a membership for.
SingleDad..go back to mulesqb's last thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1549603&page=0&fpart=8

Read my posts..particularly page 8. Perhaps I can help. I live in NY.

FIB
W just called asking me to help her invest the money I gave her from our marital settlement - wants to invest it as an emergency fund. Also said I'll get the tax benefit of her buying her house (as we will file a joint return in 2008). Apparently she closed on her house, probably today, and has some cash left over from the cash I gave her from our marriage settlement.

Wow - talk about being in a rough spot - helping her invest "my former" money for her long term goals !!!!

I helped her and then thanked her for hanging out yesterday - that I enjoyed spending some time with her.

She was appreciative...

I think I have taken some great strides... without this forum and the books - I would have told her to F_ck herself.

But I'll tell you, helping her live her own independent life (while depending on me of sorts) is a very challenging thing to do - when all I want is my family back together - and I can't even tell her that.
I have a feeling this is exactly what my life would be like post-D or next step of seperation. Hang in there Singledad.
Hey SingleDad...

You sound as if you are beginning to get a handle on the act 'as if'. As far as GAL'ing you are thinking of new things to do, but instead of just thinking of them do them. As you have read and heard a thousand times throughout this BB, this whole process is about working on YOU. Bettering yourself and making yourself more appealing to other people. In the process of doing this if it spikes an interest in your WAS so much the better but if not then all of this will teach you to be okay without her. You have mentioned that this time has made you a better dad already so good on you keep working on yourself to be the best man you can be and an even better father.

I have a suggestion, stop with the time frame of things, I understand you have less than a year, but by referencing this to yourself all the time it keeps you in a 'panic' mode IMHO. You can't put a time line on any of this it will happen as it happens, so do yourself a favor and forget about it.

As far as helping the W with finances this is a positive, in that she is trusting your judgement on what to do with the money, doesn't matter that it was 'yours' it's hers now and that's what is important she feels close enough to allow this. Also by helping her it shows her that you can be a friend to her and leave the R/M out of it.

Not uncommon for a WAS to ask the LBS if they are dating or make remarks about on the GF/BF must have helped, all this is doing is taking a temperature of where you are at in all of this, if you are still committed or moving on. You did good by just rolling right past it and not saying a word, dude that was what is a called a cheeseless tunnel and it was her way of baiting you to bite GOOD ON YOU!!!

Her calling you and talking about the swimming lessons is another good positive cause at this point you need to be good at co-parenting for your D sake and keep the line of communication open. SD, despite how you may be feeling you are doing good. Stay away from R talks let her come to you. Find more GAL things to do so that 1. you can peak her interest and 2. it gives you something to get interested in and possible bring to the table for conversation.

Stay your path you will get stronger as you see the changes in you start to take shape and keep on keeping on...

Brian
Thanks Brian for the support - true I need to stop thinking of my timeline. I do not think I am yet doing as much as I could be doing to make myself appealing to other people, but I am working on bettering myself.

There is a picture of my daughter with a whip cream mustache - like she has on shaving cream, which was taken by her daycare. I asked my W for the picture as it means a lot to me. She offered to give it to me.

I think my W is beginning to see just how important my daughter is to me - how much I want my daughter in my life... That I am doing so much to be sure she has good clothes, toys and has lots of fun with me, and I am being a responsible parent with her. On Monday, my W told me my daughter asked to "go to daddy's house" - I think that is why my W hung around my house for 30 minutes rather than the typical 10 seconds.

I think I am seeing subtle changes in W - very subtle, after a couple months of my new approach. It is making our interactions certainly more bearable... I am hopeful that they can lead to some joint activities a couple times a month or so.
My Wife admitted to me last night that she has a Boyfriend...

She was under the false belief that I was seeing someone and when she questioned me about it, I told her that she hasn't told me about anything she is doing, so why should I tell you. After she told me the truth, I told her that I was not seeing anyone - she was pissed at me for lying to her. I said I never lied, I just let you believe what you wanted to believe.

Instead of flying off the handle with her admission, it ended up that we had a 30 minute heart to heart conversation - that we haven't had since the separation.

I dropped a lot of the DB principles. While I wasn't clingy or needy. I said in no uncertain terms that when I decided to marry you and have a child with you and start a family together, I would love you and stay with you for better or worse. I am so sorry that our last year was our worst. I am so sorry that you had to go to an attorney to file for a divorce for me to see the light, but now I do see the light, and I know what life is like without you and without my family. She admitted that she is very angry that it took such a drastic action for me to see the problems and want to do everything I can to be sure she is happy. I said I have learned a lot... she asked what... I said for onethat I know what you mean when you want me to listen to you; I was only hearing you, I wasn't listening.

I told her I understand why she had to do this, and I think it has been very beneficial, because now I see what it takes to be a great father, and I want to be a great husband if you just let me. I realize that it could take years to repair the damage, but I am willing to put in the work.

I told her that I miss my family and that It tears me apart that I do not get to see my daughter 4 days every week. My W admitted that she feels the same way that she doesn't get to see her daughter the 3 days a week that I have her.

I know she was crying during our conversation - either it was guilt or conflicting feelings. She was then downplaying the extent of her BF, but she still suggested I should date others - if nothing else then to build up my self esteem. She told me she does not want me wasting my life waiting for her.

I said that I am not. I said I know that you need time and space. I am sure you are enjoying your life - meeting someone new is usually quite exciting and can get caught up in the feelings with someone else... she downplayed it again and said it is not that different. But I said that I wouldn't feel right dating because I am in love with my wife. I know you don't want to hear it, so that is why I have stopped telling you on a regular basis, but I do want you to know... deep down it my heart I love you.

Surprisingly I am not too upset... I think because she truly knows how I feel, I was able to express myself - outside of the rollercoaster fo divorce. Even though she did not give me any indication of having hope... he fact that I could tell she was crying tells me that I tugged on some heart strings - maybe I brought her to a place where she is back to questioning her actions, when I am there wanting to love her the way she has always wanted it.

I guess the downside to this again is that she knows that I am waiting on the sidelines and she can have her fun and I will stil be waiting for her. Rather than having her have a doubt about how I am feeling, whether I have moved on or not, or questioning whether I have found someone better - she knows that I love her unconditionally.

I do not know If I have transgressed in the DB process - but somehow I feel better not hiding my true feelings.

I am sure it will hit me very soon - the reality of her having a boyfriend - and I will break down and start crying... But her admitting that the separation is hard on her too and that not having our daughter half of the time, her telling me she really cared about me and doesn't want to see me hurting, her downplaying the extent of the boyfriend - just gives me hope that all is not lost... and that time may heal our relationship.
Singledad, that's a rough blow. If you feel good about how you handled the conversation, then that's good enough. I wouldnt say that you violated any DB priciples, sometimes things need to be said.
Dont let her think that you are on the sidelines, you ARE getting on with your life, just not in the dating aspect right now and there is no problem with that.

Hang in there, strength and honor
Thanks Jesse for your support.

I know another forum will give me hell for not kicking her to the curb - now knowing the trust... and also showing her my love rather than my anger.
SD....I think you are in for a lot of hurt and I disagree entirely with your approach. Forgive me if I have a bat today, but, you'll never win her back with that approach.

Quote:

but now I do see the light, and I know what life is like without you and without my family.

Oh...woe is me....
Quote:


I told her I understand why she had to do this, and I think it has been very beneficial, because now I see what it takes to be a great father, and I want to be a great husband if you just let me. I realize that it could take years to repair the damage, but I am willing to put in the work.

Wha? How do you understand that divorcing you and getting a boyfriend..and approving of it..is better than communication and counselling, honesty and fidelity? You just told her it was OK to have a boyfriend and sex while you hang out. ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Quote:

I know she was crying during our conversation - either it was guilt or conflicting feelings. She was then downplaying the extent of her BF, but she still suggested I should date others - if nothing else then to build up my self esteem. She told me she does not want me wasting my life waiting for her.


Are you listening or using listening skills? She is not conflicted..she doesn't want to hurt you, feels tremendous guilt over what she did and shows near total INDIFFERENCE at the PRESENT time. She said you need help on your self-esteem. Is this true? She just told you she is seeing someone, punched out of the M..and you're telling her it's OK...you love her..miss her....

Do you honestly think that will bring her back? If the guy she is seeing if tough, studly, hunky, etc...how do you compare to that? Do you think she feels you are in touch with your emotions from a woman's standpoint?

Quote:

she downplayed it again and said it is not that different. But I said that I wouldn't feel right dating because I am in love with my wife. I know you don't want to hear it, so that is why I have stopped telling you on a regular basis, but I do want you to know... deep down it my heart I love you.

SD....do you think she downplayed it because she just met a guy that stinks? Remember..about..the privacy...'don't come by here'? Or..did she not want to tell you to hurt your feelings...that she is on 'the high' again and having a great time.

SD...I am not going to quote anymore from above and I know you will not enjoy my posts from here on in, but, there is NO WAY that you will get her back this way...with this behavior....and the comments.

If one of the key principles would be to appear more attractive than OM...how did you fare with the above?

If pursuit,begging and groveling pushes them further away, how did you fare above?

There are OTHER MUCH BETTER APPROACHES to use..and still love your wife, want her back and be willing to forgive her if she wanted to come back.

I think you need to totally RETHINK things if you want a shot at this.

I care SD. I hope you see that above as such.
FIB
Faith - I understand what I said and it was likely weak and backtracking.

I have tried to do the DB principles since the separation began.

Yet - The conversation we had last night was similar to the ones back when the divorce action was in process - and back then it was really doing damage.

I think the news of the BF admission caught me off guard and I saw my marriage further into the abyss - and then reacted desparately to save anything - but in a calm clear way.

On a better note - the conversation was not clingy or demanding or weak... It was really more my standing my ground and expressing my true feelings... they did not go to a deaf ear as they did months ago.

Also, rather then fight or get angry, I expressed my committment.

I plan to follow the DB principles the majority of the time... but sometimes I am only human and my heart takes over.

I think it put some conflicting thoughts in her head about the right direction rather than thinking she is doing the absolute right thing.
SD,

Sorry about the situation you are going through. So many familiar parts to your story - I guess many of us can relate to so much of what you're dealing with.

There are no time frames on these things. You can put the twelve month calendar away and know that this thing will resolve when it resolves. The much bigger and more relevant issue will wind up being where you find YOURSELF as the months unfold.

Sorry to tell you that my now ex-wife had much the same conversation with me regarding her new boyfriend. She also encouraged me to do what I needed to do to be happy. In fact she told me that she wanted me to be happy.

I'm sure there was some guilt in her tears. There should be, shouldn't there? She has chosen to renounce her marital vows and destroy a family that includes a 2.5 year old child. I would expect many tears from that in a normal human being.

I'm glad that you've chose to stop pursuing her. Pursuing her at this point further alienates her, keeps things between the two of you tense, and deflates you when you do not get a positive reponse. It's like being rejected over and over again.

The one potentially winning strategy at this point revolves around you allowing yourself to move forward. It involves accepting that, for now at least, the marriage is for all intents and purposes over. You yourself said that you wished for the chance to start over. The point is you don't want the old marriage back anyway.

There were things in you that were not the way they should have been. This is the time to address those issues, rediscover your strength and establish a good life for you and your daughter.

As you begin to feel better about yourself, your confidence will grow. As your confidence grows, that will become evident in those brief interactions with your wife. And make no mistake, with a young child involved, there WILL be chances for interactions.

Meanwhile, prepare yourself to treat your wife with respect and kindness. Return the hurt she dispenses with loving compassion and understanding. Let her see the new man you are becoming.


One final note. I've never been a fan of the idea of telling a person that it's none of their business, especially when the issue is a small one. Detaching does NOT mean that you have to become a butt head. When your wife asked where the new items in your house came from, telling her that it wasn't really any of her business was not the response of a real man. Tell her where you got them, or just give her a generic response about picking them up somewhere along the way. Playing coy isn't getting her back.


Time to put on the big boy clothes and become a self-sufficient man. That's the kind of man who might possibly win back her attention.


Blessings,

Bill
I am coming to the realization that my wife has had this boyfriend before the divorce - and is getting divorced because she wants to be with the boyfriend.

It has all been lies - and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it. There are no techniques that can de used to end the affair. No techniques that can get my family back.

I am at a loss.

There is nothing I can do to save my marriage - my W actually says we are divorced and she is not my wife - yet we have a legal separation - not a divorce.

That means she is having an affair - and doesn't want the guilt.

So I just have to Get A Life - and forget about everything else.... I have been trying - but I can't

I am just pathetic...
Hi SD,

You can control your thoughts, actions and words. Be strong man and take the high road. If you love it, set it free......
My W is pissed at me - would not take my call - so I sent her this e-mail:

I am sorry to anger you and burst your secret Affair - You are still Legally Married by the way - Legal Separation is not a Divorce.

How am I supposed to feel ?

I hope someday you can understand why I am standing up for my family... This is not right.

I do not know if you were trying to protect me from being hurt or wanting to hid the affair from me.

You think you are in love with this other man - this other man who broke up a family, ended a marriage, and took your daughter away from you and away from me half of the time - why would you love another man who would do that to another family - what are his morals ???

I hope you think it is worth it - you are destroy lives - and you are too blinded by love to see it. - It is not love - it is infatuation - I know that you could not love someone who has no morals

In a few years you will probably learn that it was all a mistake - Too late to correct it.

I am so sorry you cannot see what is right.

I do love you very much - I wish you could see that instead."


My marriage is over - I couldn't just sit by doing nothing without documenting how I feel. I hope she someday understands.
Now sit back and stay OUT of contact with her.

You've said your piece, and in my opinion, she deserved to hear every word.

Establish YOUR boundaries. Move FORWARD with your life, stop being paralyzed by your desire for a healed marriage.

You might be amazed at what happens.

LEAVE it ALONE.

There is nothing more you can do except insist that PROPER actions be taken by both of you.


Blessings,

Bill
I know that is probably right... but I just feel helpless.


For the first 5 months during the divorce process- I begged and pleaded to save the marriage.

For the next 3 months during the separation - I stayed as friendly as possible to allow us to parent our daughter - having the belief that we each needed time to heal and possibly rebuild.

Now I learn that it was all a lie. W wanted to be friendly as it would just make it easier for her to have the affair guilt free.

It is still having an affair after a legal separation ? - I think it is as we are still legally married for at least the 365 days - but she considers us already divorced. (I cannot prove she had the BF before she fiuled for a divorce - though I believe it makes sense it started before - seeing as she tore up all of our wedding pictures and took off her ring soon after she filed)
Feel for you my friend. You said you piece, got it off your chest, made her realize that all will not be rosy. Hurts like hell and shakes you to the core of who you are.

Now, need to keep the chin up her and tell yourself that you DESERVE better than this. You control your response to her actions. She does not control dedicate your happiness. You control that. Go back to all the DB actions and view this as the start of the rest of your life. Take all your energy and make it work for you, not against you.

Be at peace with yourself.
Wow - I really liked something I read on another thread... In my anger I e-mailed this to my W:

"What have I really lost?

1. A wife who cheated.
2. A wife who was not honest.
3. A wife who would not honor her marriage vows (better or worse, til death...)
4. A mother who is willing to give her only child a broken home so she can be happy.
And so on..."

Ouch... I wonder what reprocussions that will have....

Maybe her knowing how I feel will give me some peace - knowing she has done this to herself.
Ok SD, time to stop the hammering.

I know it hurts and part of you feels better by delivering the blunt truth to her, but it makes you look a bit petty and vindictive (not that you don't have reason to be).

You feel helpless. Of course you do. You are JUST now facing the reality that your marriage may be over. This marriage at least.

My guess is that this is a woman who will not be changing anytime soon. She has quite a track record with you long before this most recent betrayal. But that doesn't mean that you HAVE to choose to give up on her.

Whether you remain alone or choose to move on, complete with the possibility of another one day, is totally YOUR choice.

The bottom line is that hanging on to her right now will only bring hurt.

And honestly, I think your most effective course is to be honest with the situation, establish some stern boundaries regarding the children, and ALLOW yourself to find some peace and calmness again. By letting go of her NOW, you allow yourself to heal and prepare yourself for whatever the future might hold.

Letting the WAS get away with inappropriate behavior in the hopes of a restored relationship is humiliating. My guess is that they KNOW we are allowing them to abuse us, and it only strengthens their belief that we are not the ones for them.

I'm terribly sorry for all you're going through. But I also know that you are quite strong enough to come through it a stronger and better man.


Blessings,

Bill
SD - time to move on my friend. Sorry to tell you. She may still be in there but it will take a real long time to come out. I am so sorry but this will make you stronger.
I am acting with my heart and doing what I feel is right at the moment... not following some concept of leaving her cold or moving on... and see if she comes running back... I am trying to appeal to her convictions and morals which are currently distorted by her emotions...

Again I still in my heart feel I need to know in my heart and soul that I did all that I could to save my marriage - moving on and living my separate life does not feel that I was doing all that I could - at least not at this moment

There was an incident - learning about the boyfriend, that stirred up the waters - I am going to use that for a few days to show her how I feel before I go back to simply living my own independent life.

I sent her an e-mail this morning before I logged into this forum that I will share with everyone - again it is against most advice I have read or received here... So far most advice is simply intended to spare me of any more hurt and telling me to move on in my life (as most others have learned that their marriages could not be saved or were in early stages of an affair but still the wayward spouse has conflicting emotions about what to do).


I think I have a limited window to stir things up - and produce some conflict in her between her emotions and her moral convictions - So I am seizing on that oppportunity for a short while... before I go back to living independently.

I e-mailed this to her before I logged in to this forum:

"I am not trying to hurt or anger you. I am trying to show you that you are blinded by your emotions and are living in fantasy land - I am trying to show you the impact you are having in the real world - If you could only see things apart from your emotions

At least you agree that you have not been honest, that you are not honoring your marital vows after only 3 1/2 years, and you are willing to give Brooke a broken home for the rest of her life, because right now you think that is the only way that you can be happy. That is not the only way you can be happy. I understand the pain you were going through - I am going through it now - so I am in a position to understand and make things right between us. I have learned what listening means... I have learned what your emotional needs are. I will be there for you is you just let me

And #1 is also true

You are legally married - currently you cannot re-marry because you are still married to me - You are committing Adultery by definition

I wish you could just see that this boyfriend is giving you comfort and affection while convincing you that you should leave your husband, break up your family, and give Brooke a broken home, and see your daughter only half of the time for the rest of her life going forward

Do you really think you can be fully happy in the long run when you see your daughter only half of the time ? No man can fill that void - at least not long term.

None of this has to happen. We have our share of problems - but we can work on them - I certainly commit myself to making our marriage work

I want you to be happy within our family - I will do every thing in my power to make that happen

During this whole separation process, I have followed through on my word to you - I have shown you that I "set you free" because I love you, I have never lied to you, I have never wronged you, never tried to hurt you - I am just trying to have you see things in the real world. Giving you your freedom in the hopes that you will come back. I know we needed our space to understand where things were going wrong, to understand each other, understand what each other needs, and hopefully be able to reconcile

It is not to late to correct things. We all make mistakes. We are all human.

Most men would have give up a long time ago...my commitment to you during all of this shows you that I love you - there is nothing more powerful than that

I can forgive things and love you if you start making the right decisions - my family can forgive things and love you too if you turn around and do the right things - I will make them understand - that is my promise to you

Nothing is more important to me than having a complete and happy family - nothing

Please don't wait until it is too late."
Singledad - Been following your sitch but haven't posted. My heart truly goes out to you. It really does. I can't imagine the hurt you are feeling right now, I'm scared to death I will find out how it feels.

BUT - from my perspective you are putting your D in her face as a reason to reconcile with you. Is that the message you really want to send her?? Don't you want her to come back out of love for you, not because of guilt??

Again - I can't imagine the pain you are feeling, I really can't so I can understand your emotions getting the best of you right now. But you have said your piece to her and are really trying to fix her when she feels she doesn't need any fixing. I did this and someone posted to me on my thread - do you think you look attractive right now?? My answer was a definite no. So please think about that before you keep hammering her. You are probably driving her farther and farther away right now and that means closer to him.

If you want her to see something, start working on yourself big time. Go off and cry your eyes out, do what you need to do to regroup and then start getting attractive again. I'm no expert but if I was you, I would go completely dark right now - you spoke your mind - now stop trying to control her, because she won't let you.

And listen to Bill - he's like Yoda.

I'm really sorry you're going through this.

Remember - Strength and Honor.

With the new admission of her havign a BF - I felt like I had to tell her my convictions... I do not plan to continue this path unless it has a positive effect.

I am sure it will not have that effect - but the opposite right now - but I feel better for letting her know how I feel.

I do plan to go back to going dark and taking care of myself and my daughter.
I am done trying... I have been beaten over the head, my W being with a BF - anything I say or do to snap her out of it and show her that she has a family... is viewed by my W as harrassment.

I am going dark with her - NC - I can't cope anymore - it is killing me.

All I can do is learn to "Get A Life" and be the best father I can be to my daughter when I have her. I am fine when I am with my daughter, but I cannot stand when I am alone - I cannot get past it, cannot snap out of it...
Alright, tell us what GAL you are doing and what 180s you are doing for YOU.
SD...you CANNOT FIX HER NOR CAN YOU FIX YOUR M. There is NOTHING you can do to change this...only things you can do to change YOU.

I guarantee you, that, if you start to grieve the loss of your marriage (get that book)...and let it go..not only will you feel better but you will gain strength. It is the ONLY chance you have....to move forward and onward and hope they see what they are losing.

FIB
ADDING....SD...enough. I agree with bworl 100%. You are hammering her now and instead of thinking you are getting sense into her, you are infuriating her even more. She sees this as lecturing and her father talking to her.

Back off and leave it. Read those 4 things above again now FOR YOURSELF.

I guarantee you that if you email her or go at it again....the anger will be worse with each time. You are only reinforcing her thoughts that she did the right thing.

Originally Posted By: SD

Nothing is more important to me than having a complete and happy family - nothing

Please don't wait until it is too late."


Please...please..no more of this....no more. This is a threat.

FIB
SD - my heart goes out to you big time. It is awful and very, very hurtful. Time to tell yourself that it is battle mode, or whatever mindset mode you want to call it so that you can focus on you. You deserve better, you are a better man than you are being treated. Now give yourself the respect you deserve by treating yourself well and not allowing her to hurt you more. Focus on you now. Have a drink with some guy friends and talk their ear off. Go workout to get the anger out. If you are in NYC, run around central park. Get some self-help books (7 habits), read them and start working on yourself.

Commit to a new you (GAL, 180s). It is the best you can do for you and your daughter.

Be strong!
SD - I know you read my thread sometimes so you will know I've been in a similar position. You gotta move on and accept it's over. God has our paths planned or so it's said so he planned this, smile through it now, mourn what you've lost and think about how your new life looks.

Don't get me wrong, it's super tough and I so wanted to save my family and work on it, even after I found out that there were multiple one night stands (as someone said once, it's only a XXXX, it's not like they ML). It's the worst thing you'll ever go through, but what choice you got ? You got a lot of time left on this planet, enjoy it. Good Karma. You tried, you did your bit, now move on.

Hope that doesn't come accross as harsh, I just want you to be happy and we make ourselves happy.
SD...did you finish the PDF I sent you? It will help you move forward and explain to you why she lied and punched out.It explains why she must show you anger and why they leave so quickly if the OM is single. It will explain why you MUST come across as being strong.

You must do as all above are telling you: go forward with your life. Accepting this as a death and grieving it will lift a huge weight off your chest and bring a new zeal for life. Pining away for a woman who is with another man...is this codependant? Ask yourself. We all support you here. There are no words you can say that will change this.

Strength and salvation lies.........within YOU!!!!

Strength and Honor.
FIB
Can I get the PDF?
SD - how its goin?
Any links to the PDF?
HFGW and R2C...if any of you can contact SD...he has it. If not, page 4 of this thread may help. Links to this have been deleted in the past. FIB
How are things today singledad?
Sorry - I haven't posted in a while... Maybe it's because I am not in desperation mode as I was before..

I have finally started to get back to the Gym... I did not go once int the time W was with my W (7 years together)... It was always spending time with her or doing a quicker workout from home.

Now I am trying to GAL... I seems really strange - It is like I am living a double personality...

One day, one weekend, etc - I am a dedicated 100% Dad, thinking of things to do with my daughter, and only things with my daughter.

the next day, the next weekend, etc. - I am completely on my own, Single, and trying to think of things to do for myself.

It is so strange to experience this... I do not really like this dual lifestyle - but I guess there is nothing I can do about it.

Thanks for keeping your concerns for me.

I have a long weekend with my Daughter and mother - Thurs and Fri vacation days to go to the Finger Lakes - my mother has a canoe and use of a friend's cottage. Then home on Sat and Sun with my daughter - I'll have to think of things to do.
Originally Posted By: Ready2Change
Any links to the PDF?


Faith e-mailed PDF to me after I called him
Ya this double life thing is interesting......We just need to deal with where we are at this moment in time......

Do you have an anonymous place on the internet you could post the PDF (if you thin it would be helpful) and give us a link?

Thanks and "Enjoy today!"
I have experienced the double life weirdness as well. It's hard to shift over, but once you do, it's hard not to relax and enjoy yourself. I look at it as a way to give myself a break from the sitch. Not only that, but I realized how healthy it was for myself. It is something I will continue to do regardless of how things work out with my W. Maybe not as often, for sure, but from time to time.
I summarized some of it in these threads if you can sort thru:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1533520&page=0&fpart=4

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1544431

FIB
Out of the blue, my W yesterday was screaming at me for spreading lies about her having an affair though the grapevine at her work. Said that I hurt her enough and she has a reputation to keep.

After digging into it - I found out that my asking a former co-worker of hers a full 6 months ago if he thought she was seeing someone and that is the reason she wants a divorce. Well yesterday her boss told her that I was spreading rumors about her.

I told her that I did inquire of someone whether she was having an affair 6 months ago... a former worker who had left the company and was through a recent dovirce himself. But the fact that it is coming up now tells me that other people are talking about it for some other reason like seeing my W with someone else.

W says it is all lies... We are Legally Separated - so she says she can do anything she wants and it's not an affair (Yet we are still legally married)

I said that I have nothing to do with any rumors going around now - but suggested that if she wants the rumors to stop, she could dump her boyfriend and return to her husband and daughter and be a family again.

She replied that she does not have a boyfriend - only went on a couple of dates (All lies)and that I was never part of her family - only her daughter was her immediate family.

My W's mind is so twisted. She firmly believes she is doing the right thing - if she is happy she will be a better mother, and best to get as far away from me as possible.

More than 3 months into the separation and nothing has improved.. She continues to be angry at me over anything she feels like.

I am still working on getting a life and not pushing my W's buttons - but things keep getting her angry. Spend quality time with my Daughter whenever I have her - but I still cannot get over the fact that I will be able to be with my daughter for less than half time for decades to come.
Hey Singledad, you are not alone. My wife accused me a couple of times of talking about her and "begging" her family members to help me. I have never asked any of them for anything, only told 2 of them what the situation was and that I wanted to work things out.
There is nothing we can do about it, they will believe what they want to believe, all you can do is be truthful and it sounds like you handled it the best way you could.
My W also gets angry with me over many things, though since we are moving toward mediation, she does seem to be taking things in stride more than before.

As far as time with your daughter, that is tough, but you need to adjust your focus to the time you DO spend with her rather than the time you DON'T. Fill up the time you don't have her GALing and focusing on you. It is depressing to know that things will change, but you have to accept this as reality. Do you have an IC? Do you talk to them about it?

Hang in there buddy, what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. You are in a tough spot now but it WILL get better, one way or the other, you have to believe that.
Separated 3 months +... I was hoping her anger would go away.

W denys she has BF even after she told me she did by mistake. I do not bring up the topic - try to avoid anything that will piss her off - but something always does.

She is just so angry and mean - never looking back.

Why do I keep up hope that she will come to her senses and come back to her family when she has told me she never will ?

I keep wanting things to improve between us - but she keeps being pissed off about one thing or another.

I am certain the OM keeps her happy... Seems nothing will ever change as long as the grass is greener on the other side. I just wish I knew for absolute sure if she is leaving for OM or if she decided it is over for good with me and then found OM. - I guess I'll never really know for sure

Originally Posted By: SingleDad
Why do I keep up hope that she will come to her senses and come back to her family when she has told me she never will ?


Because you still love her and you take your vows and committment to family seriously. You are also afraid of what life will be like without her. It's ok to have hope, just dont plan or live your life for it. You have to move on in every other aspect of your life and just leave the hope there. That is probably the only chance you have IMO.

Originally Posted By: SingleDad
I keep wanting things to improve between us - but she keeps being pissed off about one thing or another.

So if nothing you do is right in her eyes, just accept it and dont take it personally. She is a different person now, probably taking things out on you that she created herself but is just not willing to see or deal with. Know that this is NOT about you. It is about her and her feelings. Feel sorry for her, dont feel sorry for yourself.

Originally Posted By: SingleDad
I am certain the OM keeps her happy... Seems nothing will ever change as long as the grass is greener on the other side. I just wish I knew for absolute sure if she is leaving for OM or if she decided it is over for good with me and then found OM. - I guess I'll never really know for sure


SD, it doesnt matter why whe is leaving, OM or otherwise. She is leaving. The only way for her to realize that OM is not as good as you is to show her that you are better, that you can get on with your life without her. Maybe then she will start to take stock of what she is doing. The excitement always wears off after awhile and it sounds like she has a lot of anger issues. If you dont let her vent her anger and spew on you, then she will start to spew on OM and he will probably be out of there faster than you can blink.

Hang in there and make sure to take care of yourself. The day will come when this doesnt hurt as much. I am sad and yes, a little lonely being in the smack middle of my sitch, but there is not that bottomless pit of fear and dread and sickness that I was feeling for so long. "I no longer despair, I deal." Try it on for size.
Quote:
W says it is all lies... We are Legally Separated - so she says she can do anything she wants and it's not an affair (Yet we are still legally married)

Read the PDF SD. Are you still married? Yes. On paper. The separation, was not to get her head straight, but, to let the M die a slow death and also because she had no other way to get out of the M in the state of NY.

Quote:
I said that I have nothing to do with any rumors going around now - but suggested that if she wants the rumors to stop, she could dump her boyfriend and return to her husband and daughter and be a family again.


This is a threat and there is no way in h$ll that you will have a chance at getting her back with those comments. Translated to a women: "if you don't come back to me, I am going to continue to spew rumors about you."

As a man, you shouldn't have even come close to defending yourself. Why didn't you just say:
"I'm married. I don't degrade my wife. I'm sorry if you chose to believe rumors."

Quote:


I keep wanting things to improve between us - but she keeps being pissed off about one thing or another.

Read the PDF. Part of it is that she MUST vilify you to validate what she is doing. Part of it is that you ARE pissing her off (see your comment above).

Quote:

I just wish I knew for absolute sure if she is leaving for OM or if she decided it is over for good with me and then found OM. - I guess I'll never really know for sure


SD...open your eyes. She left. She is with someone else. You really have to get to work on yourself. Again, sorry I am hitting you hard, but, I can tell you that if you don't take some 'evasive action', you are in for a really bad bruising when the last day of month 12 rolls along.

I'm taking a 'ban' risk here but go to makingherhappydotcom and subscribe to the newsletter. Start learning about what makes a women excited and turned on and what behavior makes you essentially 'a wimp'. Having been on this board now for over 2 years, by far doesn't make me an expert, but, I've gotten a good feel for what works with women and what doesn't. Most of your conversations and behavior with her DOES NOT WORK and, in fact, PUSHES HER AWAY.

SD.....stop...think...reevaluate.

This is the hardest part of trying to be in the 5% of people here that have success in getting to Piecing, i.e., following those parts of DB that work FOR US. Imagine being in her shoes...for whatever reason...now with a guy that that is pushing her buttons...and she calls and hears what you said above.

THE ONLY SHOT YOU HAVE WHEN YOU ARE IN THE PLACE THAT YOU ARE IN RIGHT NOW...THAT MOST OF US ARE IN...is to totally LET GO...GRIEVE AND GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE. It is THEN that they will sometimes realize the loss.

FIB
PS....I think I like mountain man's post better than mine..he is saying the same thing but with kids gloves.

SD..I've hit you pretty hard in some of my posts. People did it to me when I did the same behavior. It took a long time for me to 'get with it' and truly understand why they depart..why they don't come back...what works and what doesn't...and when it is time to let go and move on.

Just trying to help. Stay strong.
FIB
Faith and MountainMan - I am doing my best, some days are just harder than others.
We have all been there and we are all with you. Reach out to the REAL people in your life for support to, friends and family. Let us all help you through this, but the point is to get back on the horse. One of my favorite sayings (second time I used this today) is "when you're going through hell...keep going." SD, I think you stopped going and now you are stuck in hell. The only way to get out of it is to keep going. Now you have 2 choices, only 2 directions to go. 1. Keep chasing your wife and being sad and upset when she runs away from you. dude, she's running circles and keeping you in hell. Choice 2. Start walking towards your new life, without her. THIS is the only way out of hell. Let go of her, leave her behind to burn in her own hell. It is her choice to be miserable and unhappy and YOU DONT HAVE TO FOLLOW HER PATH.
I think the only hope you (or I for that matter) have is to leave her behind and start walking out of hell. Maybe we will get lucky and they will follow us out, or maybe they will need to find their own path, but this is the only way out for us.

Strength and honor SD.
Mountainman - believe me when I say I am much better than I was last month and each month before that - I am mostly just in a state of confusion that my W would prefer to have her own independant free life and give up nearly 50% of her daughter than allow me to do everything to make our marriage and family work - grass is greener elsewhere...



I swear my W is two different people.

After yesterday's fiasco, she called today all happy and offered to stop by my house tomorrow to show me my daughter's professional photos from daycare - so I can pick out any pictures I'd like to order.

I guess the all of the threats and accusations she threw at me yesterday are just history.

sure - fine - whatever

I guess I will need to put on my happy face - maybe make some pasta sauce to make the place smell appealing and homey.
Well said MM.

Yes single.....I don't want to beat this..but there is NO WAY to get them back with conversation, comments, etc.

The reason we let go is not to 'give up'...but to stop trying to fix and to refocus on OURSELVES. When we let go, we allow ourselves even just an eensy beensy bit of room to stop our hurt and redirect and grow. The longer you hold onto to hope, the more you will feel pain.

Overall, they don't come back to us after splitting up by anything WE DO to AFFECT THEM. They come back ..if they do..when they realize they've made a mistake or that what they are going to lose is far greater than what they will gain.

Sadly, tho', most of our WAW's will never see this and they are lost to us. The key here is to recognize that by not holding onto the hope of reconciliation...whic is oftimes a form of denial.

Should you 'give up' per se? No.

You should let go and grieve the loss. Run. Talk to us here...your closest friends...whatever works for you. By grieving it and letting go, you actually improve your chances in a sense. You stop pursuit. You stop comments that can be taken the wrong way. You have more time and emotional strength to make changes.

No more need for comments to 'bring her back'. No need to defend yourself. No need to sell her on how marriage is much better as a united family. Won't work.

Stay strong. We support you.
FIB
SD - Please listen to FIB. He's 100% on this. There is nothing you can say to her that is going to change her mind. I am learning this also and FIB is guiding me.

Get on with your life without her. That may make her see something in you she hasn't seen in a while. Or it may not. But the key will be that you are moving on. Once you do, you will start to feel better.FIB has been right on in my sitch.

I know that pdf is brutal to read. It makes me sick to my stomach!
My W stopped over Wed eve to have my look at pictures.

I didn't give my W any attention and cut her stay short by saying that D and I were going to the park before it gets dark. My D2.5 who wanted to go to the park, pushed my W away and told my W "Mommy leave" My W was obviously upset.

My W called later that eve and talked for over an hour about how to raise my daughter right, discipline, co-parenting, etc. I just listened and avoided arguing - not worth it anymore (even though I disagree with her stricter parenting methods).

Part of her lecturing me reminded me of why there are good aspects of being apart.

Now again going through withdrawal - not seeing my D again until Tues. eve.
Originally Posted By: SingleDad
...Part of her lecturing me reminded me of why there are good aspects of being apart....
There ARE GOOD THINGS about being apart. More time apart lets the drama fade away.....
..and more time apart lets you breathe...and lets you get a chance to get away from the anger leveled at you.

Use this time to look inward and grow. Don't blame yourself. This is self-victimization. Remember SD..she was the one who made this decision, not you.

I wish to say one thing to you....man to man:

SD...if you can truly look back and recognize what your contributions were to this mess...and you are sorry for that and changing those things...then...FORGIVE YOURSELF, find peace and move forward.

We all make mistakes in life. Some forgive. Some get lost in anger and vindictiveness. I would rather live my life with the former.

Forgive yourself for any mistakes you made and become stronger knowing that you have the power to look inward, recognize this and become a better man because of it.

She can't...and that may NOT be the person you want to spend eternity with.

You are doing better, my friend. Stay the course. I have a 5 year old daugther. Don't forget this book:

What a Difference a Daddy Makes: The Indelible Imprint a Dad Leaves on His Daughter's Life

I got dirty looks because I let them stay up late..on a school night..to watch the Wizard of Oz with me. Quality time is what counts. Be in the moment for her. Don't talk against your W to her. Be supportive. Let your D know that you still love your W. Let her know that you will always be there for her. Let her know you would never hurt mommy EVER and at the most, "mommy and daddy are just sad right now but this has NOTHING to do with YOU."

Stay on the high road. We DO that as men.
FIB
Hope you are OK. FIB
Hope this helps.....this is the book I've been talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8YSZdC_4Ek

FIB
Nothing has changed in my life - except the recession.

Just logging in to say I'm still here. I've had to focus on keeping my job and serving clients... with this stock market turbulance, my hands are full.

We laid off 10% of our workforce and the rest of us have a 10% pay-cut to help reduce our losses - it was hard enough before.

Been working 13 hours a day and had to defer 4 days with my daughter.

Virtually no contact with my STBXW. She has called a couple of times asking what's going on with the stock market - I have basically not said anything to her... Not sure if she is calling me because I'm not calling her - or if she is worried about her money - or if she wants to look smart to her collegues... she has never before shown an interest in my work or the market or economy.

I'm not planning on checking back in here to much. Need to keep working... and frankly the idle time and actively thinking about the separation just depress me.

I'm not sure if you can consider me "Getting a Life"... but the my job with the stock market crash has been keeping me too busy to think about it.

The cost of paying off STBXW marital assets through maxing out my home equity loan, the stock market crash and now a 10% pay cut.... I do not know how I will manage to enjoy myself... I have budgeted $50 to $75 per week for all food, entertainment, and household supplies - less than a tank of gas.

I am advising that we will have a deep recesson lasting at least 2 years or longer - pay off any credit cards and reign in the spending.

This is my worst year ever - all around.
..but you will survive. Many times I have decided to say goodbye, but, I find that support is the best thing to keep strong..and so...I still stay.

I hope you will stop back...and let us know how you are doing. We support you.
FIB
This morning, I got a confirmation that my W is sleeping with another man. She is sick and throwing up and asked me to come to her house and take my daughter to school as she is too sick to function. When I got there, I noticed fresh tire tracks backing out of the garage through a puddle.

The worst part is she is sleeping with him while she has my daughter.

I told my W that "I can't believe you are sleeping with someone while you have our daughter. That is not right. I hope someday you realize what a huge mistake you are making. You left a husband who loves you, breaking up a family, and sacrificing our daughter in the process."

I am obviously upset... But not crying yet... I expect that I will be soon. Just shocked... Now I do believe again that my W was at least having an EA to break up our marriage.
Speak to an attorney. You are still married and this is wrong for your daughter. A boundary has been crossed. FIB
Faith - I agree that a line has been crossed - and I think my W knows that as well. But getting an attorney involved will do nothing... I have learned that having an affair changes nothing legally in NY - (unless they are promiscuous in front of her).

It would just provoke the devil in her anyway. I'm sitting back and taking it as calmly as I can.

I will try to show that the BF is not a shock to me... I was even on the thought of trying to date again. I am sad and lonely just living alone...thinking about how selfish her actions are.

I read Scotman's thread and it seems we are in similar situations... somehow he has been able to build a communicative relationship with his W which includes "family time" (despite a BF). That is something I was longing to get toward - and really the only way for there to be hope.
SD...one thing is for sure. Whether she is with another man or not...you still have a daughter between the two of you and lines of communication must always be kept open. Anyting I have read says it is unhealthy for OP's to be introduced to a child at this point.

If you are not going to contact an L, I assume that either you still have hope for reconciliation...or fear..or...????

Do you see her coming back to you?
Could you ever get over what happened and have trust again?

A few days ago, my W asked me to pick up our son from school. She was sick. Last Saturday, she stayed out to past midnite. I believe probable OM.

Keep your feet based mostly in reality. Do you remember the fable of the Emperor's New Clothes?

Stay tough. FIB
Faith - I still keep some hope even though it is bleaker and bleaker each day. I am in reality or it wouldn't hurt so much.

My STBXW and I just exchanged some harsh and angry words both by e mail and phone over her boyfriend sleeping over while our daughter is there (cleaned up for this forum), bad habits to our daughter, morals and honesty, etc.

I feel so bad and angry and hurt - but this is also the mother of my daughter and I hate things to be so hurtful. so I sent her another e-mail with a different tone:

"Obviously I love you and have loved you or none of this would be affecting me so much

I want to be friends with you, especially for the sake of our daughter... but I do not know how right now

I do not agree with the path you have chosen... I strongly believe our daughter will be adversely affected by your decision for the rest of her life - similar to the impact my father's suicide had on me... and your parents' divorce on you. My father was selfish in taking his life - not understanding that his actions affected and changed the future of everyone around him - it wasn't all about him alone. The same thing is true of Divorce.

I do not know how to work things out with you or if is is even possible while you have a boyfriend or if too many bridges have been burned and there will never be any turning back.

I wish we could have gone through marraige counseling... I think you gave up to quickly on me and our marriage - things were not that bad for that long. Or at least given me a chance after I now know the consequences.

You have made a life changing decision - You are caught up with someone else and has clouded you to the point where all you have is bad memories of me and our time together. Things couldn't have been that bad or you wouldn't have married me after 3 1/2 years of dating and then actively deciding to bring a child into this world together. I do understand that our viewpoints clashed to the point where we did not treat each other the way we both deserve to be treated. I am truly sorry for my part of that failure - if I could take it all back I would.

Your decision impacts more than your life - it drastically changes Brooke's and mine as well. I wish you could truly understand that

I have been given no choice but to live my life, or what is left of it, and take a new direction

Hopefully in the future - we can learn from our mistakes and make things right again.

Love, "


Daily I just wish this whole thing would just end - but I know it won't... as we do have a daughter between us.
SD...I feel your pain. Although what you wrote is written from the heart and reveals your feelings about your W and the destruction of your M, it is not helpful to her. You see...they don't see it that way. She MAY read that letter as 'your a bad person; you did it all wrong; your actions are wrong and hurting everyone around you; etc.

Is it true in reality? IMO, yes. How she reads and hears this...totally different story.

I think you are right in defining your borders with regards to strangers under the same roof that your daughter is sleeping under.

You have a difficult decision. Don't you have an obligation to your daughter NOT to let this go? SHOULD you have a LAW GUARDIAN INVOLVED? Think hard about this.

I know your pain SD. These S's don't have a lightening bolt hit them and suddenly they are back loving us. Whereas we think of this as the destruction of and losing a family...they think of it as losing a H and one that doesn't turn them on anymore.

Continue to detach and think about the safety of your D.
FIB
Faith - I know you are right. I just felt like I had to vent again to her decision making - I know that it will have no impact. Why - I do not know.

But I feel better, knowing she knows how I feel. I've always hated the concept of what's done is done and move forward with your single life - because she is not dead and irreversible, we are separated and one change of heart and things could change (even though 98% of me knows it will not, 2% of me thinks things could be different in a couple of years). I know I can't do anything about it though and need to move forward.

I vent on the forums as well - But some things I want her to know.
Understood. Another issue that many of us have here (including me at one point)..is fear of doing what is 'right'...i.e. defining boundaries...out of fear of pissing them off and 'ruining a chance at reconciliation.'

Hogwash.

Although you don't want to enter into arguments or be dragged into one, you MUST protect your boundaries...your N.U.T.S.

Personally, I think that what your W is doing is a major infraction, one that needs intervention. She is married...she has a daughter...and is with a stranger.

No good.

JMO.
FIB
I have done what I think is right - and I have told her too many times how I feel about things and our daughter, etc.

Again, as you said, she is in another place and everything I say is worthless and twisted to her liking.

I was been doing much better for several weeks but now I have taken a major turn for the worse when I found about Ex sleeping with BF when Our daughter was in the next room.

Now I am in anguish again. I have not learned how to just accept it as part of the hardships of life.

My W telling me what a pit of hell I am, and in her view spoiling my daughter and not disciplining her the way I should be, and having my daughter see my negative energy - that I should just grow up and get over it - I am damaging our daughter. My W says she is doing her best to repair the damage "I" have caused to our daughter.

I just do not know what to do. Everything is screwed up. There is no chance of saving the marriage - every thing I have done to date is wrong.

I do no know how to pretend it doesn't bother me. I do not know how to pretend I have a great life. I do not know how to move on. ... I am in a pit of hell. Why am is so fixated on this? Why does it seem so many others can just shrug off their marriage and move on so easily.

I am worried I will never be happy again. I am worried about raising my daughter properly on my own when I have her. I wish my W were dead - at least then I wouldn't keep having any last thread of hope be constantly crushed. I wouldn't have the constant and daily reminder that my life has turned to crap.

I know I need to live my own life - but I forgot how. And I never dated much before I got married... not sure I want to be dating again, but I am so tired of being alone and hurt.
Thank you Faith for talking with me and supporting me in my time of need.
You'll be OK. Your W is 'projecting'. Pit of a hell? Some legacy she has left for her daughter. FIB
Hey SDad-

FIB asked we check on you. FIB and I have been together here for 2-1/2 yrs so I guess we are "vets".

Wow. Your post rings so true - and I am here to say to you that you are not alone. I have been divorced since January and it still hurts.

Every day. Big time. It will get better but not before it it gets even worse. Expect that. Prepare for that.

Every day I am denied my kids. Every day I am denied those hugs from someone who I thought cared. Every day I am to blame for this mess........

The rollercoaster will slowly smooth out. But it will take time.

And effort - on your part.

I am still work in progress. So I know it is not easy.

I know.

Quote:
I have done what I think is right - and I have told her too many times how I feel about things and our daughter, etc.

Yes you have. Told her "too many times"? Me too. It does little good b/c they are in a world of their own. They see us and only us as the problem. And there is nothing we can do to change that. But they must feel that way in order to justify what they have become.

How sad. They deserve our anger - and then our forgiveness.

Hard pill to sollow - but we must. The ONLY thing we have is our terms as men.

One of my terms is that I will never sink so low as to let another man (or my Ex) make me hate.

Quote:
Again, as you said, she is in another place and everything I say is worthless and twisted to her liking.

That is so, so true. So stop wasting your energy trying to contol that which you cannot.

Quote:
Now I am in anguish again. I have not learned how to just accept it as part of the hardships of life.

Don't rush the acceptance part. Process the anger, frustration, you fear of the future. That is how we heal. As men, we feel we must "accept" when we think we should. But the heart lags behind the logic. Let it. That is heathy.

Quote:
My W telling me what a pit of hell I am, and in her view spoiling my daughter and not disciplining her the way I should be, and having my daughter see my negative energy - that I should just grow up and get over it - I am damaging our daughter. My W says she is doing her best to repair the damage "I" have caused to our daughter.

It is ALL OUR FAULT. I am shouting b/c we need to accept that as a given and use it for growth. Sure, it is not all our fault but some was. What was that? How can I change that?

That is how we grow.

W is pushing your buttons. Nothing more.

It hurts. But I believe it must - so we grow as men.

Quote:
I just do not know what to do. Everything is screwed up. There is no chance of saving the marriage - every thing I have done to date is wrong.

You are doing fine. You are doing just what you need to be doing.

Have you been trying to "save" the M? Stop. Stop and see what happens. Letting go is so, so hard (ask me how I know) but that is the ticket to our future - with her or....

Quote:
I do no know how to pretend it doesn't bother me. I do not know how to pretend I have a great life. I do not know how to move on. ... I am in a pit of hell. Why am is so fixated on this? Why does it seem so many others can just shrug off their marriage and move on so easily.

Same here. That guy standing next to you in the pit is me. And FIB. And others.

Fixated? You don't yet know the true meaning of that word yet. And I say that not to dismiss how you feel - just the opposite.

Don't pretend. Ever. Feel those feelings. What are they telling you?

So many others can shrug it off b/c they are weak. They need the help. You and I and FIB and others fight the good fight b/c it is the only fight worth fighting.

Another term: my family is my life.

I am proud of that as you should be.

Quote:
am worried I will never be happy again. I am worried about raising my daughter properly on my own when I have her. I wish my W were dead - at least then I wouldn't keep having any last thread of hope be constantly crushed. I wouldn't have the constant and daily reminder that my life has turned to crap.

I could have written these exact words. All I can say is that this sucks.

I too wish my Ex were dead. But then again, she is the mother of my kids.

Ouch.

And as bad as it is for us, if we really love them would we not want them to be happy? If they truly belive that we are no longer right for them then should we not want them to be *free* in a sense? It is never a loving thing to *hold* someone against their will.

Yes, that sucks. But we learn here about unconditional love and we also learn the high road - the road more difficult but the road to be be on always.

Quote:
I know I need to live my own life - but I forgot how. And I never dated much before I got married... not sure I want to be dating again, but I am so tired of being alone and hurt.

Forget the *dating*. Those other women are not going anyplace. Focus on you and your child. Especially on you.

It will take time and it sucks. No sugar coating.

But looking at what you have written here, you will survive. Your character rings clear.

Last point - go talk to the lawyer. Here in backwards Alabama the judge will not allow overnights with a non-relative of the opposite sex if the kids are there. Not just if you are separated - holds true even after the D is final.

That is a boundary - my family is my life. If she cannot take care of business and set the example - we must.

Piss her off? Her choice, not ours.

If you are going through hell - keep going.

Formulate a plan. Execute.

Feel the emotions and use them for growth.

It sucks. And it is so hard. But you can do it.

You are not alone.

Strength and Honor.
SD....you lucked out. You have Jeff here. I agree with all he says:
-you MUST feel the pain
-you MUST grieve the loss
-you MUST accept that you have no control over her choice to depart

By grieving and accepting the loss, you will face SEVERE pain, but, in so doing, it will be the first step in the healing process. I think I can speak for Jeff and others here that, once you make the choice to stop fixing and let go of the rope, you begin to feel better. It may take time and it make not be easy, but, it will lift a great weight from your chest.

The key..is how to handle and process those painful emotions as you embrace them.

Run.
Workout.
Spend time with friends.
Vent here.
Check out websites to help with GAL (eg, meetup.com)

You'll be OK SD. Expect rollercoasters. They happen..even to 'vets' like Jeff and I.

Hang tough.
FIB
Thank you Jeff and Faith.

It all rings so true. I have to stop trying to save anything - and try to focus on myself.

I have posted at dating sites and saved some of the profiles I like - but have not yet paid for the service... still iffy on that... just doing the "winks"... If any "wink" back at me maybe I'll take the next step.

I have my daughter this weekend and a family party - so things should be good for this weekend anyway.

I'll keep checking in occassionally.

Thanks for your support.
SD,

Thanks for stopping by my thread. I appreciate the kind words you posted of support.

Originally Posted By: SingleDad
Kakatal - I am amazed at how well your are getting along with your W who is divorcing you for another man.


It is a daily challenge, one that I am not very successful at. He is her 1st, slept with him when she was 13. Ugh. Least he lives 6000 miles away..for now.

Originally Posted By: SingleDad
My W is doing the same thing to me - and I mostly react with anger, clinginess, and dwell on my own loneliness.


Therein lies your issue. You have to realize you have a CHOICE in how you react. Took me a LONG time to become aware of that & I still fail miserably at it.

Originally Posted By: SingleDad
I just do not know how so many people are so easily able to adjust and accept the new reality.


Nothing about this is easy! Accepting it is the only way to deal with it, else I could easily see myself in your shoes, reacting the same way.

Originally Posted By: SingleDad
I am trying to GAL and DBing... but deep down I am resentful and lonely. I am trying to accept things and get along with my WAW for the sake of our daughter, but I do not find that easy to do - it's like giving her the "ok" to her choices.

I know I have no chance even years from now if I cannot get back to being friends with her.


The only way to start accepting things is to realize that this is her CHOICE, her decision. You have no control over it. You cannot change it - you have to respect it, accept it & deal with it. You cannot make her see the light with words - she cannot be reasoned with. I read your thread & you continue to try to email/talk sense into her. Has it worked? Nope. Stop. You need to find a different way to get your message across to her that she made a poor choice. The best way you can is to take a hard look at yourself, deal with your issues, improve yourself & get on with your life.

I am trying to deal with the being friends issue. 4 months of this crap & I am no closer to being friends than I am to having my w see me in a new light. One step forward, two steps back seems to be the unbreakable pattern.

You have gotten great advice - go back & read your thread from the beginning. Give my thread a read from the beginning if you want to see how anger, control & insecurity can royal screw up a marriage.

Keep you head up. Enjoy every moment with your D. Be her rock, her foundation through all of this. My kids have filled the void left in my heart with more love than I knew I could feel. They give their love unconditionally - something we seem to lose as we age. Glad I have them in my life to remind me of what is important. My marriage may fail but I will never fail my kids - they are all that truly matter.
SD--Thanks for weighing in on my thread today. I need a kick in the head most days. I wasn't familiar with your sitch, but just reading here I can see your W is causing you a lot of pain; especially with OM around your daughter. That is very frustrating for me when my W takes our kids around OM. It sounds like you've perservered through some tough times in your life so you've been given the tools to cope with this. I am a spiritual person and I believe that God lays down a challenge for us to get us ready for the next one. Although if that is true, I don't think I want to know what the next one may be after divorce. Here's to better days for all of us!
Thank you Kakatal and Little Engine - I appreciate your comments.

I am doing my best as a human, father, and actually still a husband to accept that my WAW is striving to find a new life and new man for herself, she is being selfish, and ignoring the impact her actions have on others - but I fequently slip and have trouble talking to her without her getting angry with me (which happpens anytime she wants something and I don't freely give it up).

On a news front:

I think my WAW just learned that the "grass is not greener on the other side".

She called on the drive into work about parenting time... complaining that I keep taking parenting time away from her...(even though she has more than I do). I scheduled a vacation day for 11/21 and 12/5 which is supposed to be the whole day. My W told me she is taking our D3 at 5 pm "because it's her weekend" - and that I keep trying to "change the rules". So I said "wait a minute - so now you want the rules to be that if I take a vacation day, I only get her until 5 pm... but on your vacation days you get to keep her overnight ?" After arguing about it she said "well at least for now" (likely meaning that as long as she is alone again until she has another BF to satisfy her).

Then I said "It's a Friday night - why don't you just go out with your boyfriend" She replied "I wish that were the case". Then I mistakenly said "What, did he leave you ?" Then she screamed at me a few words angry words along with "A$$hole" and hung up. She had also mentioned last week that "all men are jerks - men will just never get it". She has also mentioned she "has had her own problems" that she does not want to discuss with me.

So either her BF broke it off with her - he used her for sex - or he is not being nearly as "moldable" as she demands in a man. Either way, lately my WAW has been as real b!tch - and I can't see why any man would want to have a real relationship with her at this point.

I know it was a mistake to even mention her BF and listen to her wrath - I am not sure why I said anything - other than me being human and knowing my WAW is/was with another man.

Still she wants to lead a truly free and independent life (except for my financial support)... She hasn't yet experienced enough hardships to ever consider coming back to her family - and may never.

...Nothing going on on my dating front (match.com)... seems nobody wants to date a "separated" man... understandably... (and I do not want to lie about my status). I am not sure I want to be dating either... but I know I do not want to be alone, especially for the holidays.
I read in "Women's Infidelity" that women all have their dream for a wonderful married life. They find a man, convince him to make a committment and marry them, get a nice house, have a child, success in their jobs... Then after they have everything that they thought they ever wanted... They re-assess their lives and realize that they still aren't happy... another man comes along to listen to their problems and complaints about their husbands and they become swept off their feet, think they love this man and have an affair. Now the WAW has everything - but is guilty about the left behind husband and seeks to separate so she can continue the affair guilt free. When the WAW then seeks committment from the OM (the man of her dreams) - he usually leaves, as he is purely a "home-wrecker". The WAW usually continues to go out to seek another man - she may never go back to the husband as she blames the husband for all of her problems and her need to look elsewhere because the husband was the one who she truly believes "put her in this position".

Similar things happen when the man has the affair, except that maybe the man having the affair often wants both the affair and the spouse. The man is afraid of losing his family, whereas the woman does not, as she knows the courts usually favor the women in custody.

Things are tough - we, the left behind spouse - are powerless to do anything the moment our WAW has checked out of the marriage. We just have to live our lives the best we can and go on. There is a chance they will come back some day - but will we still want them after all they put us through - will we have already established new lives by then ?
Thanks for that last post SingleDad.. it does seem to be the trend with spouses who have affairs. It is just hard to conclude that it is their problem (mostly) and not ours that they need to overcome.
Seems to many separations occur with young children involved. WAW seem to have thought that once they had a child their lives would be complete. When they find that it is harder than they dreamed to seek something "greener"
Originally Posted By: SingleDad
Seems to many separations occur with young children involved. WAW seem to have thought that once they had a child their lives would be complete. When they find that it is harder than they dreamed to seek something "greener"


Pretty much. But remember that this isn't about 'finding another Man'. It's about running from problems. OM are bandaids, and remember that they are weak and immature. Consider the kind of 'man' who would not have the integrity to back off from a married woman.

These are not 'men'. They are just background noise and are using the WAW's to fill their own weak ego's.
Hard to make sense of it all. Is it not? It is hard to accept that they act as they do. They all feel so entitled to a dream life and no matter what we do it is not good enough. In fact we are the source of their problems - all of them it seems.

You are doing well considering where you are in this journey. I was bombed in Feb 2006 and I felt the same way most of my first year. Always hopeful that she would come to her senses. Always the target of her anger. Always trying to figure it all out.

Well, it has been almost three years and I still dont *get it*. I guess I never will - we just have to accept what we cannot control.

So I will not tell you not to focus on her and the situation. That will come in time. Best now to ride the ride and see what happens. Take every opportunity to make you a better you.

Luck.
Keep going SD. I am glad that you finished reading. Actually, there IS SOMETHING we can do. In some cases...it is to break the limbo. If you take the time to read my sitch (tough to do), you'd find that my sitch is the perfect example of the story.

You will still have tough times. You read Jeff above. I'm having a rough week too. It is never going to be easy when kids are involved. We are tied to them forever.
Stay strong and take care of yourself. FIB
Jeff - What you said is so true "It is hard to accept that they act as they do. They all feel so entitled to a dream life and no matter what we do it is not good enough. In fact we are the source of their problems - all of them it seems. Always hopeful that she would come to her senses. Always the target of her anger. Always trying to figure it all out."

My W has such pent up anger focused at me...I think she blames me for having to leave me, having to find an OM, having to give up 1/2 time with her daughter - It's all my fault... she couldn't mold me into being her willing servant and needing to make her happy...

I have stopped calling her a month or more ago - I have grown to hate her voice.. Yet she calls me most days with an attitude - angry with me about having to re-arrange parenting time as though it's my fault she doesn't have enough time with her daughter. (Yet she is the one how left and wanted her new life) I have limited any counter arguments with her and instead I say "if that will make you happy". As long as she carries this attitude - there will never be any hope for reconciliation.

Last week I invited her over to spend family time together and decorate my tree. I tried to make it comfortable for her. I think she was fine... but every sentence out of her mouth was advice on things I need to do in raising my daughter. I did not respond negatively to any of her comments - but after she left I was frustrated; realizing her desire to continue to control how I raise my daughter, but continue to live her own inpendent life.

On another frame of thought - journaling:

I think of DBing is more for yourself than the ex... It's about learning how to go on and even enjoy a new re-defined life... If I do everything thinking about the W or that this activity should be a complete family activity, then I would not be moving forward. Moving forward is when I can enjoy the time with my daughter and not think about W. My daughter is my new family.

I think that God is teaching me what it takes to be a dedicated father on my own - I spend more dedicated time with my daughter than I ever did when my W was around. And now I can raise my daughter my own way without my W telling me how to do things her way. Maybe that is what is best

I miss the "dream of the family"... but when I think of what I had, it wasn't the dream - it was going through the motions - doing things W told me to do - contolling me.

Now the dream is my daughter when I have her - I enjoy that time more than I ever did before.

What I have difficulty with is my "single time"... I have been going to the gym mostly... Today I spent the whole day cleaning house.

Yes - I do want a complete family - but not with the woman who my W is now... I see her as being completely selfish.. she is angry and controlling - not the woman I married and knew for 6 of the past 7 years. I have come to understand what happened in my marriage - I have come to see my W for the way she is now - and know I do not want her as she currently is.

Is there someone else for me ? I do not know... I have given up hoping my W will change and come back to me... So I put up my profile on match.com... there is very little interest - most are not interested in dating someone who is separated... I guess that tells me that I will have more time to work on myself... I have to learn how to enjoy my self without feeling lonely... That is very difficult and something I have never done very well.



SD...of course it is all your fault. If she didn't blame you, she would be forced to look directly at herself. You MUST be the total blame.

Honestly tho'...do you think that if she was truly happy now, she.would waste time being angry at you? Unh-unh.

Continue what you are doing. Silence can be a powerful tool. Validate as you have been doing. Decorate YOURSELF. Watch what happens when you change the radio button from separated to divorced.

Stay strong.
FIB
I hate this.

Learned my my 3 yo daughter that "Buddy" is "mommy's friend who she sleeps with"

I had been thinking for the last months that her affair was over.

I talked angerly with W telling her she "has no morals anymore. I had to learn from my daughter that you are again sleeping with OM while our daughter is with you. Can't you wait to F-ck until you don't have our daughter? What kind of morals do you think our daughter is learning?" Obviously I am furious.

She also offered to give me 2 or 3 hours on Christmas while she cleaned her house for a family party... Later she told me I should be happy with that... and it was her BF's idea that I should spend a couple hours on Christmas with our daughter. Right now I'm thinking about telling my W she can "go to hell".

I know saying those things will get me nowhere, but I do not care anymore... my daughter's mother is no longer the woman I married... A selfish, spoiled, morally corrupted person has taken over.

I hate all of the lies and deceipt. I gave her a small fortune in martial settlement upon our separation, only to learn that she is already effectively starting a new family with her, her BF and our daughter. It sickens me to think that my daughter will be spending Christmas with the BF and not her father !!!

My W even threw sh-t in my face saying that she was thinking about adopting (obviously with BF), saying I would never have wanted to adopt.

I go back to the BD'ing and GAL - then I get some upsetting news and I flip out. It's an ongoing cycle. I periodically think there is some hope - then another crushing blow.

I do not know how some people can move on so easily. I feel like I am in pergatory, going through an unbearable test.

I can't hope anymore - the pain is too unbearable.

I do not know how to move forward and live my own life. I feel she has taken everything away from me.

I have thought about masking my loneliness by dating - but have learned that no one is interested in dating someone who is "legally separated".

I had thought this upcoming holiday week would be bearable and try to spend a few hours together as a family, until I get this crushing news. Now I do not know how I will get through it.
Ugh {{{Single}}} I have no words..I can only imagine by your post how angry you are..and you have every right to be..the words you said about your wife remind me of how I feel my husband is right now, "no longer the person I married, selfish and morally corrupt"..it is just crazy to me and I'm sure to you and it really stinks that you don't get to spend Christmas with your daughter..In my opinion, remember the "spending with the daughter thing", no matter WHO suggested it, will be YOU and your daughter only..if you can focus on THAT..it would probably be worth it for you and a nice break in that day for you?

Tawnya
The arrangement this year is that W has D3 for Christmas eve and Christmas Day and I have D3 for 26th through New Years - then reverse next year.

It was her BF that suggested I get 2 hrs with D3... I am thinking that is just enough time for BF to give my W his present to her in bed, without D3 around. I don't want to encourage that.

I also want W to understand how angry I am with her by her actions. and giving D3 to me for a couple of hours will not work to apease me.

I am celebrating with D3 and my friends with their kids on the 27th and celebrating Christmas with my D3 and my family on 28th... So which day is which doesn't really matter - to my daughter she will have two Christmas'

The hardest part is, I do not want any of this - I want a complete family. Knowing my W will be celebrating Christmas with her "new family" just kills me. It is that easy for her to just create a new family for herself to be happy.

I hope she gets what she deserves - and its not good
Single..you are right on all counts and it totally won't matter and would probably be "cooler" to D3 to have 2 Christmases..LOL..I know my kids always love when I say for their birthdays that we'll be doing this or that, stretching out their birthday time ;\)

And I am SO with you..I want MY complete family back too..as we all do or we wouldn't be here would we?? The thing I keep trying to think for myself is that tho we may THINK our spouses seem happier now, we don't know for sure if they are or not? And..even if they ARE, will they still be when the grass is NOT as green?

Either way..YOU have to know that YOU can look at yourself and respect yourself..unfortunately our spouses can't say that..

So what is D3 gonna get..anything good?? I don't know much about 3 year old toys anymore..does she like baby dolls or totally not into that?

Tawnya
Thanks Tanya - yeah I don't really think my W is any happier with her BF, but she thinks she is "free" again... hasn't yet learned that being free isn't all it is cracked up to be... now she has responsibilities she has to manage on her own - and is worried about losing her job.

D3 is not much into toys - when we are together she plays with me and my Shih Tsu dogs (actually they are my WAW's dogs she left behind)... But she does love Diego - so I got her Diego, the rescue pack and baby jaguar... She is also getting a princess quilt and sheets
Aww..that sounds perfect..princess quilts and sheets..Diego from Dora the Explorer? I love when they are so young that presents really aren't as important as playing with her daddy and the dogs..that's what life is really all about isn't it? \:\)

Tawnya
Have the best Christmas you can.

Week after - SEE a LAWYER.

Get yourself on a custody schedule, for your child's sake.

Legal separation if that what it takes.

No, you do not have to accept "two or three hours"........

Stop trying to please her - do what is right for you and your child.

Stop thinking of her. She is not worth your energy.

Do for you and your child.

And stop the "I am separated so no one will date me" excuse. That is all it is - an excuse. Bull.

You should concentrate on you - not dating. Dating, or even hoping to, is running away.

Stop it.

Strength and Honor.

This is the question I always ask myself:

"What is in my kids best interest?"

It is in my best interest to ask this question frequently.

Here are some of my answers:

"To spend equal and frequent time with both parents" (So I fought with all I had to make sure I have 50/50 parenting time). I took control of what needed to be done for this to happen.

"To have two happy parent as role models" I have 100% control of one of the parents (ME) and I have 100% control of the way I think, speak, interact etc with/about the other parent....(I have no control of HER happiness)



Remember: "What is best for my kids is best for me."

Set your intentions and everything else will follow naturally....
Hi SingleDad, I saw your post you sent to Tawnya over on her thread. I have glanced over your thread to get an idea of your stitch. Even though it is personal pain for you, it is very common amoung the others here on the DB board.

I was an almost WAW. I never left, but was very close. I am older and my children are grown, but if there is anything I can help you with as far as trying to give you any insight of how a WAW thinks or feels, I will do my best. Over the years, I have read a ton of book on how to improve MR, etc., and I have observed a lot of other couples in their own problems. I never thought it would happen to me. It has taken me a long time to find myself again, but with prayer, and trying to help myself, plus this board......I did find my way back. This board was the greatest thing in my life that kept me from walking away and kept me from ruining my life plus a lot of others along the way. So, I encourage you to stick with this board even when you are ready to give up.....that is when you really need to hang in here with us. There are a lot of very smart folks around here and sometimes it takes a while to find them or they find you, but just keep reaching out to others. I saw where you did do a lot of reading other posts before you decided to start your own thread. The more people you post to, the bigger your support group will be and right now that is what you need. Christmastime is a very difficult time to be going through this mess, but it is staggering to know just how many here on the board are facing that this year. So know that you are not along by a long shot. Not that that helps, but your problem is not "unique" in the sense that it is the only one like it, but it is for you b/c it is your personal problem and pain.

I will check in on you again, and like I said, if you have any questions or just want to vent, you are free to do that here. You little girl needs you so you must try to hang on and make a life for you and her even when you feel like there is not use. You will have days like that....and that is when you need to come here and just talk all your feelings out.

I hope we can get better aquainted. It is important to take care of yourself during all of this. You will discover that you have more strength than you realized.

Hope to hear from you. I am over in the Piecing forum, mostly to just have a home place for people to find me.

Take care,
Sandi
Thank you Sandi - I know I need to post more... I was very active on another site - but most there were burned bad and often give a 2x4 in the face for tough love advice. I like this site more as it is comforting with a touch of hope... my hope is nearly disappeared... but the GALing helps me move forward with my own life. I would like to understand WAW better - but I have learned a lot about my WAW - the greener pastures, the taking me for everything she could, etc. She has moved on with her life and has a BF (likely has the affair before the legal separation or the reason for it). I just do not know if after she gets burned enough be the jerks out there, she'll someday realize that while I wasn't everything - I was honerable and respectible. (Well - some of that has been defeated in my attempts to show her how much she has lowered her moral standards and will be hurting our daughter in the long run). I would like to get to know more people here. I have to post more - but I have to do it afterhours when I do not have my daughter... I was adddicted on the other site and was getting close to losing my job.
Ready2Change - I have spent the last 6 months doing exactly that... think if doing something is the best thing for my daughter. But I have had a few backslides. Back in Early Nov when I learned my W had a BF. And then again last week when my daughter told me the BF was sleeping over.

Now I am so angry that my W, her Bf and my D3 will be spending a Merry Christmas together, while I am kicked to the curb. She bought a house with the money I gave her in settlement, she pays a large portion of her household expenses with the CS I give her... Now she so easily starts a new life and a new family with this Guy...

I feel so used and taken advantage of - especially now with Christmas.

But I did fight hard in my legal separation for joint physical and legal custody.... and nearly 50/50 parenting time.


Jeff - I hear your point. I should not be dating, or dating just because she is. But it's hard... I am so lonely. I live in a 3,100 sq ft house, with the temp around 60, 50 at night, with all of the lights off - all to save money, because so much goes to her that I am negative $1,000 per mo in cash flow since my 10% pay cut. But it makes no financial sense to sell the house now. I expect my pay to return in a year.
SD....you are consumed with anger and understandibly. You need to vent it, here, and start to do what you SHOULD BE DOING....moving on.

None of us like that thought.

None of us enjoy the pain.

None of us find it easy to let go of what 'we used to have'

But you cannot become codependent and hold onto something that is destroying you.

The BF pushed her attraction buttons. What are YOU doing to exceed HIS? Would you want to be with YOU right now if you were HER? I say this NOT to give hope for getting her back but for YOU to see what someone ELSE sees from the outside.

Do you look strong, confidant, leading and enjoying life?

Or...well, ..enuf....

My recommendations? Again...

1) Let go. Grieve the loss of your M. There won't be much left of you if you don't and continue on this path

2) Become more assertive. IF YOUR DAUGHTER IS SEEING YOUR W SLEEP WITH ANOTHER MAN THEN IT IS YOUR REPSONSIBILITY AS HER FATHER TO INTERVENE NOW!!!!!!. Get the N.U.T.S. book. Men intervene and make decisions for the well-being and safety of their children.

3) If your daughter can describe a BF sleeping with your W, then THAT is destructive and personally, I would have made an immediate move to the/a law guardian to have this terminated. You CAN'T stop your W from sleeping with dorkelhoses but you CAN get a court-order that it NOT happen with your D in the house. Get going on this.

I'm sorry SD....I know you now and I care about your sitch. Look at Jeff's post. STOP THIS now. You really need to make a dramatic change in yourself and move forward.

FIB
Faith - I was assertive and expressed my anger with W for sleeping with BF when D3 is with her. W realized her mistakes and put a stop to it - so she says.

As far as letting go... oops - to late. I have been wanting to do this for the past 11 months. It has been eating at me that her family does not know my viewpoint on this divorce.

MY W will be so livid with me that I contacted her family - But I finally felt I has to let them know that I do not think this is right.

I'll post my e-mail to her family in a new reply.

I have been holding back for the past 11 months on my desire to express my feelings to my W's side of the family - as my W told me never to contact them, I didn't. But I continue to feel Not letting them know my feelings - that I do not want this divorce, I love my wife, I love my daughter - I am doing everything I can to save my marriage.

I do not want them to think and I do not want my daughter to ever think that I didn't do what I felt in my heart was the right thing to do - save the marriage.

I thus finally did it... I sent this email to everyone on her side of the family.


"All -

I want you all to know I have never wanted and will never want this divorce to happen - In spite of all of the hardships, I have continued to do everything possible to save my marriage with Michelle. I completely understand why Michelle feels this is her only choice - why we may have needed time apart - It gave me time to reflect on what was going wrong in our marriage and where I was wrong in my priorities. I have repeatedly told Michelle I am willing to do what ever it takes for her to be happy within our family, but I will never agree with that a divorce when we have a Brooke together is the right thing to do.

This has been the hardest thing I have ever had to endure in my life - I lost 35 lbs through anguish in February alone, and nearly lost my job -trying to save my family. But perseverance breeds character.

Our marriage began to fall apart when both Michelle and I got caught up in the stresses and frustrations of other aspects of our lives and neglected the emotional, physical and spiritual needs of each other. I believe in my heart that my enduring love for Michelle can prevail - given time.

I have forgiven Michelle through prayer to God, and I hope Michelle can forgive me for not being the best Husband to her - I love her so much and can be the man she married and be a loving husband and father - all that she expects from a man.

I made a commitment to Michelle and to God with all of you as my witnesses that I would love, honor and cherish Michelle till death do us part. I have and will continue to maintain this commitment. I do and have always loved Michelle with all of my heart and to the best of my ability. Most couples go through hard times and we are no exception. We all have our struggles, things do not always work out as planned. But if both people are willing and put their heart and soul into it, they can work through their troubles.

I have tried to give Michelle everything she wanted during our marriage and continue to give her everything she wants throughout our divorce.
I have struggled through the last 11 months trying to show Michelle my love, my desire to work on our problems, and my ability and desire to make the changes in myself in order to make our marriage work.

I have been sole searching every single day in this process.

To no avail. Michelle has never looked back or had second thoughts. She is totally convinced that we are not meant to be together. I disagree and view that line of thinking as the easy easy out. And I believe that all relationships will fail if they can't work through hard times which come with every relationship. Yet Michelle continues to plow forward with her life in search of greener pastures - and potentially to start a new family - and in doing so continues to grow further and further apart.

Most say that I should give up.

But we have Brooke together - and I have made a commitment to be the best father possible to her. I love Brooke with all of my heart as well, and I would do anything for her. Including doing everything possible to allow her parents so stay together and so she can grow up in a traditional family - one that can be stable, loving, and right.

I had believed Michelle when she told me "If you love someone, you need to let them go - they may just come back to you". I therefore, signed the 12 months legal separation. I was hoping that Michelle would learn that being a single parent and having all of your independence is not all it is cracked up to be - - and hoping that in time Michelle would change her mind. I overwhelmingly feel that passing our daughter back and forth everyday for the next 15 years is not right. A much better solution is to solve our own problems through reconciliation and marriage counseling. So far I have failed to have any influence upon Michelle - and the decisions that she is making - I am learning from Brooke the impact this is having on Brooke's life.

I do not want to look back on this time in 5 or 10 or 20 years and realize that I did not do everything possible to save our marriage. I do not want to tell Brooke when she is older that she lives in a broken home because I gave up fighting for what I feel is right.

I thought it was of utmost importance for you to know my point of view. I will continue to love Michelle and maintain a thread of hope that a reconciliation is possible. Whether or not a reconciliation can be accomplished, I want you to be rest assured that I will continue to do everything possible to be the best loving father a man can be toward Brooke.

I wanted you all to know that I love you and I want to wish you a Happy Holidays.

Sincerely, Jim"


I do not expect anything will change... But I know I feel better knowing I did what I feel is right and just.
{{SD}} You may be surprised at their response, it was a very heartfelt letter and, if that was my daughter, I would be thrilled to know someone loved her enough like that..

On the other hand, you may NOT get a response, but that's okay too..you did what you felt you had to, it may mean nothing or something..but if you did it for YOU..then good for YOU!!

I do hope and pray that you can let the pain go, not for your wife's sake, but for YOURS..or else the pain and anguish and angry will eat you up, and I'd hate to see that happen to someone like yourself \:\)

Hugs to YOU!

Tawnya
Thanks Tawnya - I needed that support.

I expected my W to be spiteful that I contacted her family with my feelings - She forwarded my e-mail on to my Boss telling him that I am harrassing her and her family and asked me to stop.

Then my Boss calls me in and scolds/warns me not to do it again.

I hate when doing what I think is right and just, it just backfires in a double wammy.

I am not sure W even read it... I hope her family does.
SD..it was a beautiful letter, well written, powerful...but it is still begging and pursuit.

Results?

An angry wife who reported you to your boss.

Can't you see that this is the only possible outcome?

What can her family do?

Do they control her?

Do you?

You need to stop this..you keep shooting yourself in the foot and can't see it.

The sentiments you expressed in your letter...are deep..and personal...and your conviction to stand for your M should stay where it should..in your heart and your one on one exposure to G-d.

Stop forcing yourself on her...and her family..it is pressure and pursuit and usually fails miserably.

FIB
Faith - I agree wholeheartedly that her first reaction would be anger and hatred. I do not know that would be the case years from now.

Except the week after the bomb, I have never contacted her family to let them know how I really felt. I thought it of utmost importance for them to know that it is not me wanting the divorce and that they know I did everything I could to save the marriage.

I want my daughter to know that as well.

And I want to know in my heart that I did everything I could.

I have held my thoughts inside me (and with my W) for the past 11 months - I felt the need to express my deep feelings to her family.

Now that I have, I am comforted. I am relieved. I can rest. Knowing they know my truth.

I will still keep a thread of hope alive in me for months to come (until the D is final)... but now I can go back to BDing and GALing.
SD...I understand...as long as you realize that there are TWO people here. To her, this was "I'm telling on you".

There are many other ways to do this. This comes across as going behind her back and making HER look like the bad guy when SHE doesn't view it that way. I'm not saying that I support her in any way. I'm just saying that the way you are going about this can be better. Honestly, that letter would have pissed me off too. It's a holier than thou thing.
You know SD, I'm not a super religious person but I believe in G-d and I'm spiritual within. I don't write this line often but you really need to back off your W and let it be handled by G-d.

Stop the emails.

Stop the in-law stuff.

Define your boundaries with W but stop the M talk.

You MUST see that it has continually pushed her farther away.

If you really want to stand for your M....backoff...let her go...pray...move on and make changes...and hope that time and missing you will bring her back.

It won't happen the way you are doing it.

Strength and honor.
FIB
{{SD}} I think it's good that you feel relief..so that NOW you can do what Faith said about just backing off and letting God handle the rest..

I know we all try to help each other out as much as possible, but, unfortunately, right or wrong, we just have to do what is the best thing we think LOL..and sometimes we are right and sometimes no..

I hope your Christmas is blessed my friend!

Tawnya
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